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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 17:12 BST (UK)
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Firstly new on here so hi,
Rose Annie Humphreys birth certificate and the 1911 census showed her dad as John Thomas Pierce. His birth date is given on the National ID register as 18th June 1876. I can see he married Agnes Proudman from Rose Annies birth certificate. The only marriage i could find is in Hartlepool. This is miles away so strange. But thats it. I can not find any other census or even his birth certificate, 1911 census shows he was born in flint. The objective is to find his father but i can not find anything to give this such as a baptism.
Very fustrating to be stuck so soon. So any help or pointers would be so welcome.
Regards
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The marriage certificate should give his fathers name & occupation.
People moved around more than we would expect at these times, very often they were in service.
John Thomas Pierce
Marriage 23 May 1904
Hart, Durham
Spouse Agnes Proudman
FHL Film Number 1894203
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Welcome to Rootschat.I'm falling at the first fence on this,I'm not finding any Rose Humphreys anywhere in Flintshire.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Welcome to Rootschat.I'm falling at the first fence on this,I'm not finding any Rose Humphreys anywhere in Flintshire.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
Ah I see!I'm not thinking out of the box am I?lolJohn Thomas's daughter Rose Anne was to marry a Humphreys.Its not easy.lol
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I think you'll find your John Thomas was in fact born in 1879.The 1891 Census shows his father as a Daniel Pierce born in Pwillheli Caernarvonshire in c 1851.His mother shows as an Emma born in Holywell in c 1849.Fliintshire BMD shows that they married at Holywell St James in 1875.She is shown to be an Emma Jones.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Sorry it is probably my wording. Rose Annie was a Pierce who went on to marry a Humphreys.
Is my logic sound in the following argument.
1. I know John Thomas was Rose Annies Dad from the 1911 census.
2. His DOB was given in the 1939 register as 18th June 1976.
3. I have a Birth certificate for a John Pierce 18th June 1976 in flint, but different address.
Should I assume this is him? How would I verify such?
Many thanks
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I think you'll find your John Thomas was in fact born in 1879.The 1891 Census shows his father as a Daniel Pierce born in Pwillheli Caernarvonshire in c 1851.His mother shows as an Emma born in Holywell in c 1849.Fliintshire BMD shows that they married at Holywell St James in 1875.She is shown to be an Emma Jones.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
Thanks Ill look that up as well its a lead.
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His birth is definitely given as of 1879.It looks like whoever was the informant of his death gave very much an estimated year of birth.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I looked at the family of the John Thomas Pierce identified by WRJ and I am convinced he is not your man.I believe he married an Ethel Turner in 1903.
Regards
Roger
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I looked at the family of the John Thomas Pierce identified by WRJ and I am convinced he is not your man.I believe he married an Ethel Turner in 1903.
Regards
Roger
Marriage for the one that married Ethel Turner gives fathers name as Daniel occ Schoolmaster
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What are the details on the birth certificate you have?
Regards
Roger
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I looked at the family of the John Thomas Pierce identified by WRJ and I am convinced he is not your man.I believe he married an Ethel Turner in 1903.
Regards
Roger
Well the John Thomas born in c 1879 is definitely showing in 1911 as having married Agnes and as the father of Rose Anne.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Just scanning my evidence one sec.
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should load
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It looks very much like he married again then in Hartlepool in 1904.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I got his birth date from here ID register 1939
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But its a John not John Thomas
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I looked at the family of the John Thomas Pierce identified by WRJ and I am convinced he is not your man.I believe he married an Ethel Turner in 1903.
Regards
Roger
Well the John Thomas born in c 1879 is definitely showing in 1911 as having married Agnes and as the father of Rose Anne.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
Ah it was Rose Annie not Rose Anne
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But its a John not John Thomas
Yes but Rose Ann's father is shown in 1911 as John Thomas and married to Agnes.Ok her name!
Meanwhile,who is the John Thomas Pierce showing as married to Ethel and showing in Aston Warwickshire in 1911?
regards
William Russell Jones.
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Names as they appear on the 1911 census
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Ok I need to study those leads you gave before i go further...coffee and loads
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The John Thomas Pierce who married Ethel Turner can be identified wit her in 1911 and I'm sure is a different John Thomas.
I suspect you may have the correct certiificate,even though it is only in the name of John.The family is at Castle Terrace,Flint in 1891(ref RG12/4608/71/30).John has a brother Thomas,so it is possible it was his middle name.
Regards
Roger
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Names as they appear on the 1911 census
Yes,Agnes's maiden name was Proudman.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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The John Pierce born in 1876 though is showing as the son of a John and Ann Pierce.
This isn't easy though I'll admit.lol
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Ah this may help. This is the marriage certificate from Hartleypool
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The John Thomas Pierce who married Ethel Turner can be identified wit her in 1911 and I'm sure is a different John Thomas.
I suspect you may have the correct certiificate,even though it is only in the name of John.The family is at Castle Terrace,Flint in 1891(ref RG12/4608/71/30).John has a brother Thomas,so it is possible it was his middle name.
Regards
Roger
Thats interesting...may account for the Thomas
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Ah this may help. This is the marriage certificate from Hartleypool
Ah you kept this one back from us!lol
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Trouble is he gives his age as 24 in 1904!
Rethink required?
Regards
Roger
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Trouble is he gives his age as 24 in 1904!
Rethink required?
Regards
Roger
Yes this is definitely not easy!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I'm pleased these characters are not my relatives,I'd have been sectioned by now.lol
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Sorry lol just so many bits of paper around. I have startrd using rootsmagic 7 it seems the best. Curiosity William what software do you use?
With all that info do you think im on the right track?
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I use Ancestry's own software for building my Tree.All things being equal it shouldn't be but it appears your John Thomas was the son of John and Ann(e) Pierce.Ann being of Halkyn.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Trouble is he gives his age as 24 in 1904!
Rethink required?
Regards
Roger
Just clicked on what you meant...as you said rethink.
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Since JT was 10 years older than his wife suspect he may have knocked a few years off his age when he married but by 1939 the truth was known. People often get the year wrong but not their actual birthday. I go with the John whose certificate you have who was born the exact date 18/6/1876, the date he states he was born on 1939 Register. Plus, as already proven, the John Thomas Pierce born Flintshire in 1879 was son of a Daniel.
Annette
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Exactly what I said to WR, Annette ;D
Also, in 1901 John (1876) was a Chemical worker. This might well explain the marriage in Hartlepool - Teesside was one of the main sites of the chemical industry. They possibly didn't like it up here and returned to North Wales.
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Just an observation - at different times John Thomas Pierce is described as a chemical or steel worker in Flint,occupations not unknown in the Hartlepool area.
Regards
Roger
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Both had the same thought, Roger :)
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Yes,but you're quicker!
Regards
Roger
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Many many many thanks to all. I think I have the right John Thomas Pierce for the following.
Rose Annie pierce mum was down on the 1911 census with John Thomas Pierce and Rose Annie Pierce. She was Ann Brooks, married before as Proudman but original name Johnson.
The Proudman she married was a John Proudman. On his certificate of death his son Alfred was a witness. If you notice on John Thomas Pierce and Agnes Proudmans marriage certificate Alfred and his sister Jane (from census) were the witness. The said father of John Thomas being John Pierce.
I feel i should quote some Latin proving my case but i dont know any. But I will have a drink and thank you all. Unless you know different lol :'(
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Rose Annie pierce mum was down on the 1911 census with John Thomas Pierce and Rose Annie Pierce. She was Ann Brooks, married before as Proudman but original name Johnson.
You are trying to confuse us here :-\
Rose Annie Pierces Mum was Agnes Proudman.
Agnes's mother was Ann Johnson / Proudman /Brooks
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As Rosie says, you've confused yourself. This is what happened:
Ann Johnson m John Proudman, Northwich RD, Q3, 1866
Agnes Proudman was born Northwich RD, Q 2, 1886 (mmn Johnson)
John Proudman died Oct 1892 (buried 29 Oct) , Wharton, Cheshire - Agnes's father
Ann Proudman (widow of John Proudman and Agnes's mother) married John Brooks Dec 29 1897, Wharton.Cheshire. Ann's father's name given as John Johnson.
Gadget
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Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Regards
Roger
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Amen to that....many thanks. This is adictive. Many thanks again.