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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 17:12 BST (UK)

Title: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 17:12 BST (UK)
Firstly new on here so hi,
Rose Annie Humphreys birth certificate and the 1911 census showed her dad as John Thomas Pierce. His birth date is given on the National ID register as 18th June 1876. I can see he married Agnes Proudman from Rose Annies birth certificate. The only marriage i could find is in Hartlepool. This is miles away so strange. But thats it. I can not find any other census or even his birth certificate, 1911 census shows he was born in flint. The objective is to find his father but i can not find anything to give this such as a baptism.
Very fustrating to be stuck so soon. So any help or pointers would be so welcome.
Regards
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 17 April 17 17:29 BST (UK)
The marriage certificate should give his fathers name & occupation. 

People moved around more than we would expect at these times, very often they were in service.

John Thomas Pierce
Marriage 23 May 1904
Hart, Durham
Spouse Agnes Proudman
FHL Film Number 1894203
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 17:29 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat.I'm falling at the first fence on this,I'm not finding any Rose Humphreys anywhere in Flintshire.

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 17:41 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat.I'm falling at the first fence on this,I'm not finding any Rose Humphreys anywhere in Flintshire.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

Ah I see!I'm not thinking out of the box am I?lolJohn Thomas's daughter Rose Anne was to marry a Humphreys.Its not easy.lol

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 17:53 BST (UK)
I think you'll find your John Thomas was in fact born in 1879.The 1891 Census shows his father as a Daniel Pierce born in Pwillheli Caernarvonshire in c 1851.His  mother shows as an Emma born in Holywell in c 1849.Fliintshire BMD shows that they married at Holywell St James in 1875.She is shown to be an Emma Jones.

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 18:05 BST (UK)
Sorry it is probably my wording. Rose Annie was a Pierce who went on to marry a Humphreys.
Is my logic sound in the following argument.
 1. I know John Thomas was Rose Annies Dad from the 1911 census.
 2. His DOB was given in the 1939 register as 18th June 1976.
 3. I have a Birth certificate for a John Pierce 18th June 1976 in flint, but different address.

Should I assume this is him? How would I verify such?
Many thanks
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 18:06 BST (UK)
I think you'll find your John Thomas was in fact born in 1879.The 1891 Census shows his father as a Daniel Pierce born in Pwillheli Caernarvonshire in c 1851.His  mother shows as an Emma born in Holywell in c 1849.Fliintshire BMD shows that they married at Holywell St James in 1875.She is shown to be an Emma Jones.

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Thanks Ill look that up as well its a lead.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 18:14 BST (UK)
His birth is definitely given as of 1879.It looks like whoever was the informant of his death gave very much an estimated year of birth.

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: despair on Monday 17 April 17 18:15 BST (UK)
I looked at the family of the John Thomas Pierce identified by WRJ and I am convinced he is not your man.I believe he married an Ethel Turner in 1903.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 17 April 17 18:17 BST (UK)
I looked at the family of the John Thomas Pierce identified by WRJ and I am convinced he is not your man.I believe he married an Ethel Turner in 1903.

Regards
Roger

Marriage for the one that married Ethel Turner gives fathers name as Daniel occ Schoolmaster
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: despair on Monday 17 April 17 18:20 BST (UK)
What are the details on the birth certificate you have?

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 18:23 BST (UK)
I looked at the family of the John Thomas Pierce identified by WRJ and I am convinced he is not your man.I believe he married an Ethel Turner in 1903.

Regards
Roger

Well the John Thomas born in c 1879 is definitely showing in 1911 as having married Agnes and as the father of Rose Anne.

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 18:26 BST (UK)
Just scanning my evidence one sec.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 18:35 BST (UK)
should load
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 18:35 BST (UK)
It looks very much like he married again then in Hartlepool in 1904.

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 18:37 BST (UK)
I got his birth date from here ID register 1939
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 18:40 BST (UK)
But its a John not John Thomas
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 18:43 BST (UK)
I looked at the family of the John Thomas Pierce identified by WRJ and I am convinced he is not your man.I believe he married an Ethel Turner in 1903.

Regards
Roger

Well the John Thomas born in c 1879 is definitely showing in 1911 as having married Agnes and as the father of Rose Anne.

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Ah it was Rose Annie not Rose Anne
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 18:46 BST (UK)
But its a John not John Thomas


Yes but Rose Ann's father is shown in 1911 as John Thomas and married to Agnes.Ok her name!

Meanwhile,who is the John Thomas Pierce showing as married to Ethel and showing in Aston Warwickshire in 1911?

regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 18:47 BST (UK)
Names as they appear on the 1911 census
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 18:49 BST (UK)
Ok I need to study those leads you gave before i go further...coffee and loads
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: despair on Monday 17 April 17 18:51 BST (UK)
The John Thomas Pierce who married Ethel Turner can be identified wit her in 1911 and I'm sure is a different John Thomas.
I suspect you may have the correct certiificate,even though it is only in the name of John.The family is at Castle Terrace,Flint in 1891(ref  RG12/4608/71/30).John has a brother Thomas,so it is possible it was his middle name.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 18:51 BST (UK)
Names as they appear on the 1911 census

Yes,Agnes's maiden name was Proudman.

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 18:59 BST (UK)
The John Pierce born in 1876 though is showing as the son of a John and Ann Pierce.
This isn't easy though I'll admit.lol

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 19:00 BST (UK)
Ah this may help. This is the marriage certificate from Hartleypool
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 19:03 BST (UK)
The John Thomas Pierce who married Ethel Turner can be identified wit her in 1911 and I'm sure is a different John Thomas.
I suspect you may have the correct certiificate,even though it is only in the name of John.The family is at Castle Terrace,Flint in 1891(ref  RG12/4608/71/30).John has a brother Thomas,so it is possible it was his middle name.

Regards
Roger
Thats interesting...may account for the Thomas
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 19:10 BST (UK)
Ah this may help. This is the marriage certificate from Hartleypool

Ah you kept this one back from us!lol

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: despair on Monday 17 April 17 19:13 BST (UK)
Trouble is he gives his age as 24 in 1904!
Rethink required?

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 19:16 BST (UK)
Trouble is he gives his age as 24 in 1904!
Rethink required?

Regards
Roger

Yes this is definitely not easy!

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 19:26 BST (UK)
I'm pleased these characters are not my relatives,I'd have been sectioned by now.lol

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 19:54 BST (UK)
Sorry lol just so many bits of paper around. I have startrd using rootsmagic 7 it seems the best. Curiosity William what software do you use?
With all that info do you think im on the right track?
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: wrjones on Monday 17 April 17 20:04 BST (UK)
I use Ancestry's own software for building my Tree.All things being equal it shouldn't be but it appears your John Thomas was the son of John and Ann(e) Pierce.Ann being of Halkyn.

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 20:32 BST (UK)
Trouble is he gives his age as 24 in 1904!
Rethink required?

Regards
Roger
Just clicked on what you meant...as you said rethink.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Annette7 on Monday 17 April 17 20:37 BST (UK)
Since JT was 10 years older than his wife suspect he may have knocked a few years off his age when he married but by 1939 the truth was known.   People often get the year wrong but not their actual birthday.   I go with the John whose certificate you have who was born the exact date 18/6/1876, the date he states he was born on 1939 Register.    Plus, as already proven, the John Thomas Pierce born Flintshire in 1879 was son of a Daniel.

Annette
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Gadget on Monday 17 April 17 20:44 BST (UK)
Exactly what I said to WR, Annette  ;D

Also, in 1901 John (1876) was a Chemical worker. This might well explain the marriage in Hartlepool - Teesside was one of the main sites of the chemical industry. They possibly didn't like it up here and returned to North Wales.
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: despair on Monday 17 April 17 20:46 BST (UK)
Just an observation - at different times John Thomas Pierce is described as a chemical or steel worker in Flint,occupations not unknown in the Hartlepool area.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Gadget on Monday 17 April 17 20:52 BST (UK)
Both had the same thought, Roger  :)
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: despair on Monday 17 April 17 20:59 BST (UK)
Yes,but you're quicker!

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Monday 17 April 17 23:43 BST (UK)
Many many many thanks to all. I think I have the right John Thomas Pierce for the following.
Rose Annie pierce mum was down on the 1911 census with John Thomas Pierce and Rose Annie Pierce. She was Ann Brooks, married before as Proudman but original name Johnson.
The Proudman she married was a John Proudman. On his certificate of death his son Alfred was a witness. If you notice on John Thomas Pierce and Agnes Proudmans marriage certificate Alfred and his sister Jane (from census) were the witness. The said father of John Thomas being John Pierce.

I feel i should quote some Latin proving my case but i dont know any. But I will have a drink and thank you all. Unless you know different lol :'(
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 18 April 17 07:15 BST (UK)
Rose Annie pierce mum was down on the 1911 census with John Thomas Pierce and Rose Annie Pierce. She was Ann Brooks, married before as Proudman but original name Johnson.

You are trying to confuse us here  :-\

Rose Annie Pierces Mum was Agnes Proudman.
Agnes's mother was Ann Johnson / Proudman /Brooks
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 18 April 17 09:01 BST (UK)
As Rosie says, you've confused yourself. This is what happened:

Ann Johnson  m John Proudman, Northwich RD, Q3, 1866

Agnes Proudman was born Northwich RD, Q 2, 1886 (mmn  Johnson)

John Proudman died Oct 1892 (buried 29 Oct) , Wharton, Cheshire  - Agnes's father

Ann Proudman (widow of John Proudman and Agnes's mother) married John Brooks Dec 29 1897, Wharton.Cheshire.  Ann's father's name given as John Johnson.

Gadget
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: despair on Tuesday 18 April 17 09:19 BST (UK)
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: John Thomas Pierce 1876 to 1945 flint brick wall.
Post by: Tryweryn on Tuesday 18 April 17 13:46 BST (UK)
Amen to that....many thanks. This is adictive. Many thanks again.