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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: brigidmac on Wednesday 19 April 17 10:50 BST (UK)

Title: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 19 April 17 10:50 BST (UK)
 William Grundy was a mariner on Sumatra aged 63 in 1869 leaving Liverpool

I have found him on another crew lists which confirms his age and also  states he was born in Falmouth

I'm presuming this is the same William Grundy given as father occupation mariner
on both daughters Sarah Grundy and Anne Grundy  (1847  and 1850 marriage certificates )

I can't find him anywhere else ...
His wife Sarah is listed age 36 in 1941 as Ind.

Living with Healey family whose son's Edward and George would be the respective groom's of her daughter's in Toxteth Liverpool.

I can't find William Grundy.,s marriage to Sarah

Or birth of daughter Sarah who according to all censuses( 1851-1901 )was born in London abt 1823:

Daughter Ann was born in Liverpool 1830

i cant find the teenage Grundy girls in 1841 on ancestry searches

And cant find William from birth in Falmouth to death he was discharged from ship in Oct 1869 if it was health reasons maybe he didn't make it to 1871 census

Fresh eyes appreciated


Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 19 April 17 12:09 BST (UK)
I did find one William Grundy seaman living in Stoke Golding 1841 Leicester

with Mary Grundy aged 60 head and Ann age 30 mother and sis ?

But can't find any connection
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 20 April 17 09:40 BST (UK)

Maybe Sarah and William Grundy did not marry and she just assumed his name

So her daughter's could have been born under different names .

Sarah Grundy junior also is a mystery ...

..Her marriage to Edward Healey was 1847 but on  1851 census their daughter Mary Ann is aged 8 !

I cant find any birth or baptism for a Mary Ann Grundy or Healey or name variations around 1843

Information on both women after. 1851 is abundant and both lived into their 80.s

Some refs to the Healey's is on this thread

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=709529.msg5528843#msg5528843
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: heywood on Thursday 20 April 17 11:03 BST (UK)
Birth

March 1843 West Derby vol 20 pg 898

Mary Ann Healy - mother's maiden name Grundy
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: heywood on Thursday 20 April 17 11:34 BST (UK)
I know you have Sarah in 1841 - do you have her anywhere else?

Just something to think about:
Lancs OPC shows 3 baptisms at St Peter's Liverpool.
22nd July 1827 - two children Sarah and Ann. Parents William and Harriet. William is a mariner.
1929 - William Grundy - same parents but William is a warehouse man.

1827 marriage William Grundy and Harriet Northeast.
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 20 April 17 12:05 BST (UK)
Wow well done Heywood .

....No i haven't found Sarah anywhere else maybe she was Sarah Harriet or a totally different Sarah
Grundy .....

But could it be a coincidence that she was living with future husbands of William Grundy.s daughters ?

 all the censuses show daughter Mary Ann as born in London ? But i baptism at Liverpool fits in

Back to drawing board

I.ll look at the censuses for a William or Harriet Grundy  again i remember seeing some with ason William .I think the proffession was Cartwright
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: heywood on Thursday 20 April 17 12:12 BST (UK)
I did  find a William in the workhouse in 1841 in Walton on the Hill.
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 20 April 17 12:22 BST (UK)
He could have had different proffession

his ship records were
1868.age 62   time on board 24 hours ..      discharged

1869 age 63  may to October.        Cook .......  discharged
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: heywood on Thursday 20 April 17 12:24 BST (UK)
IT was Young William in the workhouse. It might not be your family at all- just coincidence perhaps but worth noting.
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 20 April 17 12:57 BST (UK)
I've just found that William junior aged 12 in the workhouse in Walton on the hill West derby (posted at same time )


Further down page is a George Grundy age 9

There are so many censuses with William Grundy on ....I haven't refound the ones with Harriet
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 20 April 17 13:07 BST (UK)
There's also a William Gurney indentured in merchant navy in Oct 1844 also a good candidate for junior
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 20 April 17 13:58 BST (UK)
Another William Grundy is a cordwinder age 22 a visitor of the Rick family at new street liverpool

I haven't found Harriet/Sarah Grundy b1805 or earlier on any 1851 census or a death for her .

And no appropriate William Grundy senior in other censuses

The banns for William Grundy and Harriet Northeast were 26 Jan 1827 St Nicholas Liverpool

Thanks for Mary Ann Healey's birth.... Heywood
So definitely 3 or 4 years before her parents marriage

Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 20 April 17 15:33 BST (UK)
There are several naval court records.medals honours list and  pensions but for William Grundy .

Need Fold to access

Ages not given so father or son Could feature on these lists

 No Grundy seems to be born in Falmouth 1906 ..So ship records don't tally .....
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 20 April 17 17:11 BST (UK)
I found  daughter Sarahs baptism 22/07/1827     # Ann.s was further up  on  same page

William and Harriet were living on New Bird street

According to various census  Sarah was born between 1822 and 1825
.
Ann born 1827-  this would mean Sarah born before parents wedding.(if it is the correct father )

Still no sign of Sarah aged approx 18 and Ann 14 in 1841

Possible death of Harriet in 1839  in Clitheroe which would explain why not coming up in any census
 .And why 12 year old son in workhouse.
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 20 April 17 20:39 BST (UK)
There is a Harriet Grundy aged 40 in 1841

Probably not ours as it's in Berkshire and she's listed as born in county

But it's interesting because she seems to be living in a rectory as F S ( female servant)
Page before has a schoolmistress and a long list of young people aged 20 to 8yrs

So i guess it doubles as a school
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Friday 21 April 17 08:30 BST (UK)
George Grundy baptised 1832 parents Harriet and William Grundy labourer king Street

George in Walton on hill workhouse age 9 1941

1951 he's in prison aged 19 occupation shoemaker

May be related
Sarah Grundy died age 8  July 1836 in workhouse ......No other details
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: heywood on Friday 21 April 17 13:01 BST (UK)
Harriet Grundy died 6th July 1836 in the workhouse so perhaps not your Grundys.
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Friday 21 April 17 15:39 BST (UK)
That fits perfectly

She could have died in childbirth ....George may well have been born in workhouse
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Friday 21 April 17 15:51 BST (UK)
I've posted in occupation s general question about merchant navy apprentices

There is a William Grundy enrolling Oct 1844 for 4 years age 15
And one or two different George Grundys in 1846 and 1847.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=769976.msg6225405#msg6225405

I thougt the mariner connection was  a a good indication that these were children of our 'ancient mariner'William Grundy
But my mother thinks the Walton on the hill workhouse may have specialised in turning out sailors

We know the Kirkdale workhouse trained children in tailoring at that time
L
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: heywood on Friday 21 April 17 16:14 BST (UK)
That fits perfectly

She could have died in childbirth ....George may well have been born in workhouse

I thought it fitted until you found the death of a young Sarah who would fit with the baptism  :-\
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Friday 21 April 17 16:19 BST (UK)
Could this be George Grundy  history or two different people

Born 1832 in workouse 

in workhouse aged 9      1841


1846 committing larceny aged 14      3 weeks prison



  1846 age 15          merchant navy apprentice  liverpool deserted at London 6/11/1848 cancelled by mutual consent 14/12'/48 liverpool


1847  Jan    age 16     Liverpool left 18/01/1848

1851 age 19  in prison    occupation shoemaker

1871 George 40 widower with Eliz 9 Alex 4.  Occupation porter and general ...... Illegible

1881 widow shoemaker with daughter Eliza 20 and son Alex 18

1893 age 63 west Yorks courts " rogues and vagabonds" is the crime  Liverpool 12th Feb

1901 widower age 71 marine fireman

There were a few other petty sessions that i didn't check

I need to go back .cross referencing all the addresses
It's so addictive he's not a direct relatives and may not even belong on this tree but a fascinating fellow

I need to find his wife's name and their marriage


Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Friday 21 April 17 16:25 BST (UK)
You.re right Heywood

if Sarah daughter of William and Harriet died in workhouse
Can't be the same Sarah Grundy who married Edward Healey

Having a sister called Ann and a father called William as the only definite clues we have to identity

Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 22 April 17 10:56 BST (UK)
Hi workhouse Sarah death doesn't fit exactly because if she was 8 in 1836 she would have been born 1828 after the July 1827 baptism

I've been trolling thru baptisms and christenings for a Sarah Grundy b around 1823 with mother Sarah pages and pages but by search parameters won't show me London ones .....Don't know what I'm doing wrong
 ..I tried leaving William off too in case he is an invented father

Harriet is a less common names and does occur in later generations  so i.m hoping she is the correct mother
Could she be Harriet Sarah Grundy. ?  Nee ?  So on ,1841 census as Sarah 36 with the Healey family ??

Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 22 April 17 11:10 BST (UK)
There is a possibility for Harriet   Grundy  aged 46  1851
In little Heaton Lancashi

She is listed as sister to Alice Grundy    they are all cotton loom weavers

Or Sarah Grundy aged 48 who is listed as neice

Very difficult to read as census has been damaged look s like fire
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 22 April 17 11:26 BST (UK)
Heywood
I double checked workhouse

Harriet who died in workhouse seems to have been age 21   the lady below is aged 36
Little Sarah on same page looks more like Greening than Grundy

A
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 23 April 17 00:48 BST (UK)
How about this record .

William Sharp alias Grundy April 1820   age 20
Committed a felony   whilst ship moored at Chatham

I'm not sure what happened to him ..N S A 25th SEPT

Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: heywood on Sunday 23 April 17 08:06 BST (UK)
I have been searching 1841 - it is odd that there is no sign of Sarah and Ann.  :-\
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 23 April 17 08:40 BST (UK)
Thanks Heywood
They were old enough to be working
Could they have been using a different surname ?

If they are the children of Harriet and William Grundy could they also have been in some kind of institution
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 23 April 17 08:53 BST (UK)
 I only have age 62 for the William Grundy mariner on ship 1869 born in Falmouth
Wonder if that could be Farnworth Lancs ? As there is a William Grundy at King street Farnworth in 1851. He's a labourer



There is a William Grundy convicted for warehouse breaking in 1838 10 years transportation to NSW
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 23 April 17 09:19 BST (UK)
How about 1841 Flat street Bury lancs
Living with publican
Mary Grundy /Grandy age 50
Sarah age 20
Ann 14
And other children Eliza 12 Jane 10

Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 23 April 17 09:37 BST (UK)
Do you think the Sarah Grundy living with the Healey's in 1841 could actually have shaved 10 years off her age and married Edward Healey ? After having  Mary Ann with him ...?

Still doesn't explain where  14 year old Ann Grundy was
Maybe she was actually Sarah.s daughter not sister !

* Oops ....She.d have to have shaved 20 years off    to be 26 in 1851 .....ditzy moment too many late night Grundy hunts  I think .
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 23 April 17 16:12 BST (UK)
There is a baptism

Sarah Grundy Oct 1827  single mother Mary Grundy  Ringley lancs

Could this be same lady as publican in Bury with our missing Sarah and Ann .


If i assume William and Harriet s Sarah and Ann are not ours then i also have to find them in other censuses for elimination
Am in awe of people who can post documents or clippings and order their findings coherently
Am surrounded by Grundy notes on papers and trying to link families
Have eliminated the cotton dyers weavers and mechanics

Looking for links between the mariners and publicans with the Healey family
-Will attempt A summary when I've checked a few facts and looked for places on map can't find Ringley lancs. 
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 23 April 17 23:37 BST (UK)
Summary
I now believe that William Grundy  named as father on
Sarah  and Anne Grundy .s wedding papers to Edward and George HEALEY

 NOT the same mariner as

William Grundy  mariner who married Harriet  Northeast  1827

He is based in Liverpool wedding and children's baptism s

Sarah and Ann baptised  July 1827    occ. Mariner
William                                        1829.  Occ warehouse man
George                                         1832. Occ labourer

By 1841 his sons were in workhouse

I don't know what became of HIS daughters and wife Harriet .
But son William followed a mariner career ... died at sea 1883
Son george had a criminal career for a while

 Was William Grundy  the elder prosecuted for felony in 1831

Or sent to NSW in 1838 for ten years
There is a case of warehouse breaking in Cheshire in 1849 fits with his occupation in 1832
..William Grundy sentenced to ten years


OUR  William Grundy may not have been based in Liverpool at all !

He may not have legally married his daughters'  mother


censuses  show elder daughter Sarah was been born in LONDON 1821-1823

Which makes her a bit old to be daughter of Sarah Grundy aged 36 in 1841    tho not impossible
If Sarah Grundy was not the mother what is her connection to Healey family in 1841
Daughter

Daughter Ann from census born between 1828 and 1830
Too late to be on the 1827 baptisms !

Our William may be the mariner from LEICESTERSHIRE
Age 35 staying with his mother Mary aged 60 and siblings in 1841

He could be the 63 year old mariner cook who turns up in 1868 B Falmouth

William Grundy of king street Farnsworth lancs. Aged 51 in 1851 labourer
wife Ellen age 38
Mary 19 .James 18 .Mary Ann 14 + others

I keep doing the same searches

I.ve just learnt to use the shoe box function on ancestry so i can save records which are possibles
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 24 April 17 11:41 BST (UK)
Have been told there was a John Grundy age 23 b1818 Falmouth Cornwall merchant seaman records 1835-1857 could be a brother to Falmouth  william
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: heywood on Monday 24 April 17 12:55 BST (UK)
Sadly, I can't see anything of any help.  :(
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 24 April 17 16:01 BST (UK)
Thanks for trying I keep finding things that don't quite fit

Found a Sarah Grundy on her own in 1841 with Edward Savile engineer
family ashton under-Lyme
 only 10  so too young to be ours

Interestingly their 9 year old daughterGrace Savile is down as being a piercer
It's the youngest I've seen working  her 15 year old sister is a cotonweaver
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 24 April 17 18:52 BST (UK)
On GR a record is showing for
British army records of a private in 2nd division lifeguards ....Is that the same as lifeguards in swimming pools or a totally different meaning .?

Birth 1807 fits with our sailor  and birthplace Worseley is between Farnmouth and Salford  Lancashire
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: heywood on Monday 24 April 17 19:31 BST (UK)
The Lifeguards are a very important regiment  :)

http://www.army.mod.uk/28088.aspx

I am not sure about looking to Farnworth etc. Those records re William show Falmouth.
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 24 April 17 20:53 BST (UK)
Thanks Heywood you.re a mine of reliable information

I.m on a detective hunch now and trying to find a connection though Berwick name

It looks like on of the possible Sarah Grundy s married a William Berwick  in 1828 ( after births of Sarah and Ann Grundy 1822 and 1827 )

I didn't see any connections

But there is a post about Heeley/Healey's
 Sarah's  Son in laws sister
Martha Healey married john Jackson Berwick in 1864 at Walton on the hill .. # Beswick

He was a wheelwright in 1861 with father Timothy Berwick  a baker in Everton #Beswick

Looking for the missing link now I'm sure wheelwrights came up in one search as did Worsely
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 24 April 17 21:10 BST (UK)
The link to the Healey post ....Sorry i thought id posted it already

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=709529.msg5528843#msg5528843

Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 24 April 17 23:55 BST (UK)
The wheelwright  connection was

A Will : 19 march  1856
William  Grundy to Sarah Grundy widow and Mary gee Grundy  spinster daughter

Don't know how old this William was ..I believe there are 3 generations of lancashire  William Grundy  one fought in the Napoleonic wars

There is also William Grundy shipwright married to Isabella baptising their daughter Sarah in 1822


Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: Jomot on Tuesday 25 April 17 03:36 BST (UK)
A couple of outside chances you may not have considered:

Marriage at Cheadle 4 Jan 1824 William Grundey & Sarah Brown.  Both OTP & no occupations stated.  Wits John James & Henry Smith

1847, Marriage at Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended – John Foster & Sarah Grundy.

1851 Census, Liverpool Street, Eccleston (all born Sutton)
John Foster 56 Farmer
Sarah Foster 46 Wife
John Foster 20 Stone Mason

There is also a younger couple named John & Sarah Foster in 1851, but I think her maiden name was Neill / O'Neil
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Tuesday 25 April 17 19:28 BST (UK)
Thanks jomot.  ...I.m  now led to believe The William named as father mariner on the girls marriage records was actually William Grundy and third mother was called Mary not Sarah ......The bishops transcript of 1828 had mistranscribed the name on parish register it is Mary


So i need to re  organise notes and work backwards again bhopefully all the research on William and Sarah Grundy and  the children of William and Harriet Northeast with same first names will come in useful for other researchers
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 27 April 17 01:38 BST (UK)
Mistake in last post

I mean William Beswick was Mary Grundy.s husband

I can't afford to spend money on these girls birth certificates especially as we may not have the right ones .Mum wants me to concentrate on her grandmother by birth not the adoptive mary ann nee Healey

so am doing detective work around where they or and their mother may have lived in 1841. 
george Healey was a witness on and Sarah Grundy  on Edward and Mary Ann's wedding
And the  married siblings were in turn witnesses they were living in Toxteth 
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 27 April 17 02:18 BST (UK)
I can't afford to spend money on these girls birth certificates especially as we may not have the right ones .Mum wants me to concentrate on her grandmother by birth not the adoptive mary ann nee Healey

So who is your mother's grandmother, and what do you definitely know about her? 

When you say "the adoptive mary ann nee Healey" do you mean the one born 1843 that Heywood found?  If so why do you think she is adopted, and what is her relationship to the person you are trying to research? 

Unfortunately sometimes the only way to positively follow the person you are researching may be to buy one or two certificates of potentially connected people as its the only way to establish facts.   

At the moment  - from this and your other posts – you seem to be chasing random people called Mary, William or Sarah, so £9.25 spent on a certificate could save you a lot of wasted time & effort.
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 27 April 17 02:35 BST (UK)
She is on 1901 as boarder and 1911 as adoptive daughter of samual  Hallis and Mary ann nee Healey
And my mother used to visit their daughter aunt Harriet (Martha) Harriet Healey Evans Cookson

Her birth mother was Charlotte Roberts   ..and birth father was George Jacob Fellman
We have the  a affiliation order and have traced him
And believe we may have found Lottie as an actress in 1901 and 1906 using various aliaseses.


The post about looking for birth mother is now 15 pages long on Cheshire board
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 27 April 17 02:45 BST (UK)
OK got it - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702286.0

So the Mary Ann Healy born 1843 MMN Grundy, is potentially Mary Ann Hallis - adoptive mother of your Great Grandmother.

I will have a read of the full thread.
Title: Re: William Grundy mariner b approx 1806
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 27 April 17 03:02 BST (UK)
Yes Mary Ann Hallis was born Healey and her mother was definitely Sarah Grundy  Healey married to Edward
But Sarah Grundy  probably isn't the daughter of this mariner

Thanks so much for your interest .

The Healey post was started by someone looking for Edward Healey Sprite mother Martha Lloyd

( I've put the other potential father William Beswick on a separate topic as it's too convoluted )
Will come back to this research when i have time to unravel the place names

Also my tree on ancestry needs sorting out as i now have two sons for  mariner william and Sarah Grundy