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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: johneowens on Wednesday 26 April 17 15:12 BST (UK)
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I am looking for my 2nd gt grandmother Amplias nee Gregg and would like some help. The spelling of her given name is often corrupted in records
Amplias was baptised at Tipton Parish Church 21 August 1831 "daughter of John & Mary Grigg of Oldbury". John was a jobbing smith (Tipton PRs No. 536, 1831). That should make her 10 yo in 1841. Searches in Ancestry and FindMyPast, however, yield no results no matter how many variations in name.
In the 1851C, "Amplice Gregg or Grigg" is a servant with the Webb family at Flash, Oldbury, Worcestershire, England - Note the change of county. Ref. HO107/2024/444/p.35
20 June 1852, "Amplice Gregg" married Edward Yieveley at Kings Norton, Worcestershire (actually, North Harborne Parish Church, Smethwick, Staffordshire). The certifcate lists her father John (a blacksmith) as dead by this time. Both Amplice and Edward are listed as OTP.
Any help finding the family in the 1841C much appreciated.
Many thanks
Best
John
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Do you know if she had any brothers and sisters? To give us more names to look for in 1841.
Amplice is a name I haven't heard before most unusual.
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Thanks for your interest, Milliepede.
Unfortunately, this is one of those situations where the 1841C is vital, complicated by Oldbury being in a large urban area and located in two different counties at different times (Staffs and Worcs). As you see, I have Amplias in the 1851 but by this time, she is working away from home.
I just did a search on Ancestry for any Grigg or Gregg baptisms between 1820 and 1835 and came up with:
William bapt Oldbury, Worcs 28 Oct 1821 - father John, mother Mary.
Joseph bapt Oldbury, Worcs 2 Nov 1823 - father John, mother Mary.
Job bapt Oldbury, Worcs 5 Feb 1826 - father John, mother Mary.
Henry bapt Oldbury, Worcs 5 Feb 1826 - father John, mother Mary.
Although some or all of these baptisms are in Oldbury, I have no evidence that any of them are Amplias' siblings.
Any help, much appreciated.
Best
John
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Thanks for that. Will have a look for those names just in case but as you say they could be unrelated.
I wonder what happened to her mother as father died before A married. She could be orphaned somewhere on her own in 1841 :( or with mum and a new husband.
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Thanks, again, Milliepede.
The further I go into this, the greater the mysteries. I also cannot find John and Mary's marriage - although if the possible siblings I sent are theirs, the first sibling's baptism would give the strongest indication of date.
I've also checked the subsequent censuses and cannot find any that fit (and Mary is not living with Amplias and her new family in 1861, 1871, 1881, of 1891, even though they lived in Oldbury). So, maybe Amplias' mother died soon after Amplias' marriage in 1852.
Also cannot find any marriage of a Mary Gregg/Grigg/Grieg in the area after 1852.
The plot thickens without any sign of light.
Best
John
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Yes it's a toughie. I did find a Job age 15 in 1841 but he was in Shropshire - and born in County - on his own so no help there.
The other boys nothing too precise age wise but again in Shropshire so possibly a separate family. Those were Grigg though not Gregg.
Hmmm can't think what else to try. Marriage witnesses?
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Yes, I saw those in Salop but, as you say, probably another family.
The witnesses to Amplias' marriage shown on the certificate were John and Mary Anne Clarke although the FindMyPast record (apparently the GRO's) shows Sarah Bennett and James Phillips. None of these names, however, seems to be helpful.
Best
John
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A family tree has a census for John and Mary in 1851 Bromsgrove with 5 children so John hasn't died yet - if that census is correct and the 5 children are siblings.
Sarah
Thomas
Isaac
John
James
Don't know if that is right for your family.
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Baptism;
JOSEPH Grigg, 2 Nov 1823, Christ Church, Oldbury, Worcestershire
Parents JOHN/MARY
Fathers Occp Smith**
+ WILLIAM Grigg 28 Oct 1821 Same Church and Parents, Fathers Occp Jobing Smith*
Possible Marriage;
26 Nov 1820, St Thomas, Dudley
John GRIGG to Mary SHELDON
Bachelor/Spinster
JOB is there also fathers Occp Jobing Smith
All on FreeREG
So all look like Siblings to me.
Trish :)
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1841 Census Halesowen Shropshire(Township Oldbury) H0107/908 Bk8 folio32 page8
Job Grigg 15 fitter.
Jackie
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Many thanks, Trish. I was not aware of FreeReg previously and that it showed the father's occupation. (Ancestry does not show occupations in its baptism transciptions.)
I did a blanket search of all * Griggs for 1821-35 and, as you posted, found William, Joseph, and Job on FreeReg (as below). I am pretty sure all 3 are mine.
William bapt Oldbury, Worcs 28 Oct 1821 - father John, mother Mary.
Joseph bapt Oldbury, Worcs 2 Nov 1823 - father John, mother Mary.
Job bapt Oldbury, Worcs 5 Feb 1826 - father John, mother Mary.
In this search, I also found a burial in 1835 at Church St Wesleyan Chapel of John Grigg, which is probably theirs and Amplias' father, as it fits in with the rest of the chronology. The record also gives John's parents' names, Joseph and Hannah.
So, some real progress here. Of course, now I have to decide which is the real family name: Grigg (as per all these baptismal entries at Christ Church, Oldbury, Amplias' at Tipton, in the 1851C) or Gregg (as per her marriage in 1852 when she consent by mark, not signature).
As I say, I am pretty certain these folks are mine, thanks to your help, but I would really like images of the baptismal records in the parish registers. Neither Ancestry or FindMyPast provide images of the original baptismal entries for Worcestershire. Do you know where I might find them online, please?
Of course, the mystery remains as to where Amplias' siblings and mother are in the 1841C. One obvious line of enquiry is to look for Amplias' siblings in the 1841 and see whether mother is with one of them. Thanks, Jackie for the 1841 ref for Job whom I suspect may actually be "John"; maybe not. However, he calls himself Grigg, not Gregg. The issue is complicated however by there being two Griggfamilies and 2 Job Griggs in the area.
Any further suggestions, most welcome.
In the meantime, many, many thanks
Best
John
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In this search, I also found a burial in 1835 at Church St Wesleyan Chapel of John Grigg, which is probably theirs and Amplias' father, as it fits in with the rest of the chronology. The record also gives John's parents' names, Joseph and Hannah.
Can't say for sure but aren't parents names usually given when a young child has died not an adult - is there an age on the burial to confirm it could be John the father? **
I would say Grigg for the correct name. It may have been misread later down the line.
** I stand corrected the record shows he was 38. Have never seen parents names given on adult deaths before.
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I have seen Parents names given in Burials for Adults but it is very rare.
As they are named they may be still alive?
If John died 1835 Mary may have remarried before the 1841 Census.
Sorry I cant help with original Parish Records images on-line. I dont think they are.
But FreeREG entries are taken from them by Volunteers.
I agree with Milliepede Grigg is the correct name.
FreeREG also has a JOHN Grigg Bapt Oldbury 1797 to JOSEPH/HANNAH
Burial of a JOSEPH Grigg 1837 age 77 (names his Parents)
Trish :)
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The whole page of burials has the parents names. I would agree that most of them are young enough for their parents to be still alive. Not sure about the one aged 79 and 2 months :-X
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I didnt see that one :D
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Could there be a connection with the following..
1841 census West Bromwich Staffs H0107/978 Bk5 folio27 page 10
Thomas Clarke 20
Ellen 20
John 15
Ann 15
Hamphles Grig 10
next door
Joseph Timmins 40 bricklayer
Mary 40
Leonard 2
I know the above is Joseph...but...
Marriage All Sts Sedgley 5th Nov 1837
Jesse Timmins-full age-widower-bricklayer-father Moses
+
Mary Grigg-full age-widow-father Thomas Horton
Abode Princes End
Witnesses Thomas + Maria Fanton.
In 1851 at Oldbury Worcs-Leonard Timmins age 11 is visiting a Thomas + Maria Fanton.
Jackie
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Yes that looks good. I had found the Marriage but couldnt find them on Census (it was late)
If that is Mary then the Marriage I found is incorrect and we need a Horton/Grigg Marriage.
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Regarding Leonard Timmins-
Birth Reg Timmins June qtr 1839 Dudley Union -mothers maiden name Horton
Jackie
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Hamphles Grig 10
Gold star for you spotting that one :D
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Ooh! I have my moments..not many I must admit...thank you Milliepede.
Jackie
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My goodness, you guys have been busy while I've been away - and so so helpful.
Yes, very unusual to see parent's names for non-infant burials - but very helpful.
Yes, I'll settle for Grigg. Now actually traced a line to the US where Grigg became Griggs.
Brilliant Milliepede: "Hamphles Grig 10" has got to be my Amplias. Wonderful, wonderful! Many thanks. Platinum star for you, I think. Recall also that a John and Mary Anne Clarke witnessed Amplias' wedding in 1852. Bet John gave her away as her father was deceased.
Many many thanks to both of you. I had though this a lost cause but didn't anticipate your expertise.
Best wishes
John
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... however, still wondering about Amplias' mother Mary, for whom no trace. Fact that Amplias is whether the Clarkes aged 10 may suggest she was an orphan. Brother Job was out working in Halesowen aged 15 in 1841. I guess the same for the other older brothers, asuming they were still alive. If Amplias was an orphan, mother Mary may have died in child birth or in the work house. Before the Poor Law came in West Brom had a workhouse in now St Clement's Lane in West Bromwich from 1735 (http://www.workhouses.org.uk/WestBromwich/ ). Also after 1766, some almshouses on Meeting Street in Wednesbury. Also at Handsworth. I'll check the 1841C.
Best
John
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I can't take the credit John it was Jackie that found her!
We're looking at the family next door in 1841 - Joseph Timmins and the marriage Jackie found Mary Grigg
Jesse Timmins in 1837
Maiden name for Mary was Horton so if she is the same Mary need a John Grigg/Mary Horton marriage.
I think that's where we're at :D
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... Yes, I can only see John Griigg-Mary Wright 9 Nov 1818 at Handsworth & JG-Mary Sheldon at Dudley 26 Nov 1820.
Best
John
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Wondering if this could be John Griggs sister..(there's very few Amplias Griggs knocking about)
Marriage St John the Baptist Halesowen 8th Dec 1832
Amplias Grigg (spin) + Samuel Johnson(bach)
Witnesses John Grigg + Elizabeth Johnson
Oldbury was in the Halesowen district ( in 1841 census)
Jackie
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Jackie, I see your logic: not many Amplias Griggs about plus it would explain where my Amplias got her name (from a favourite aunt) + you have a strong track record!!
I've found this marriage with Halesowen in Worcestershire in 1832 in FindMyPast, but unfortunately no image of the original doc. Nonetheless, this looks a very strong possibility. Many thanks, Jackie.
Re. my Amplias' mother (Mary), I wondered whether you (or anyone) have found a John Grigg/Mary Horton marriage, which would give us a positive on Mary Grigg's (nee Horton) remarriage (to Joseph Timmins) in 1837? Or are we still with the 1820 John Grifgg/Mary Sheldon marriage?
Best
John
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John
So you are going to discount the Mary Timmins living next door to Amplias in 1841 census.
Jackie
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Sorry, Jackie, no - just catching up on the earlier posts, which I had not digested fully. Now modified my last message (hopefully) to reflect where we are, which I think is:
1. Abt 1820, John Grigg m. Mary Horton, but we have not found the marriage.
2. 1831, Amplias born to John Grigg and Mary (nee Horton).
3. 1835, John Grigg dies; 4 yo Amplias goes to live with the Clarks. They are together in the 1841C.
4. 5 Nov 1837, @ All Sts Sedgley (just 3 mls from Dudley), Mary (nee Horton) Grigg (full age-widow-father Thomas Horton) married Joseph (Jesse?) Timmins (full age-widower-bricklayer-father Moses) of Princes End
ITPO Thomas & Maria Fanton.
5. 1841C, the Timmins' are living next door to the Clarks with a child Leonard, who is Amplias' half brother.
6. 1851C at Oldbury, Worcs, Amplias' half bro Leonard Timmins age 11 is visiting a Thomas + Maria Fanton.
7. 1852, Amplis marries Edward Yieveley in Smethwick ITPO Clarks.
Would appreciate your confirmation.
I see you have Timmins of Tipton in your interests.
Many thanks for your help - and apols for misunderstanding.
Best
John
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John
Yes can confirm.
Now..wait for it..what if John Grigg was married twice,both wives named Mary...these Griggs-Clarkes
+Fantons (or Fentons) seem to be cropping up.
The last date for the Grigg childrens baptisms at Oldbury was 1826.Could this be their mother Mary.
Burial 30th Aug 1827 All Sts West Bromwich-Mary Grigg age 24-Abode Oldbury.
Marriage St Peter+Paul Aston 11 Aug 1830
John Grigg widower + Mary Clarke widow-Witness Susanna Barnsley.
Marriage St Peters Wolverhampton 21 Feb 1816
John Clarke + Mary Horton.
Cannot correctly establish dth/burial for John Clarke....but going back to 1841 census..Thomas +
Ellen Clarke.
Marriage All Sts West Brom 21 Oct 1839
Thomas Clarke 18-bach-puddler-abode W.Brom-father John Clarke-miner
&
Ellen Jones 19 spin.W.Brom-Father John Jones -carpenter
Witnesses William Grigg + Maria Fanton
Phew!!
Jackie
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Dear Jackie
You're brilliant. Many thanks.
I'm now en route back to the UK so will reply once I've digested all this on Monday. As usual, it looks very impressive.
Best for now
John
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Well done Jackie, what a tangled web :)
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Trish....Thank you.
John
Re. the witnesses at Mary Grigg + Jesse Timmins marriage 1837.(Thomas + Maria Fanton) also
who Leonard Timmins was living with in 1851
It's possible that Maria was Mary's daughter
Marriage St Martins Tipton 18th July 1836
Thomas Fanton - bach - Tipton
Maria Clark - spin - Tipton
Witness John Jones
A possible bapt. St Martins Tipton 7th March 1819
Maria Clarke - abode Sedgley -John Clarke-miner-Mary
Jackie
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Wondering if this could be John Griggs sister..(there's very few Amplias Griggs knocking about)
Marriage St John the Baptist Halesowen 8th Dec 1832
Amplias Grigg (spin) + Samuel Johnson(bach)
Witnesses John Grigg + Elizabeth Johnson
Oldbury was in the Halesowen district ( in 1841 census)
Jackie
Not sure this is my John Grigg for it would mean he was not buried 26 November 1835 @ Church St Wesleyan Chapel, Oldbury, Worcs at 38? And, if he did not die in 1835 and his wife Mary (nee Horton) was still alive, why had 4 yo Amplias gone to live with the Clarkes by 1841?
Puzzle - or have I missed something?
best
John
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Dear Jackie
Thanks again. Sorry about the delay in responding. I'm just catching up and trying to sort all this out..
Do you think the following revised chronology works? (Some queries, however).
1. 5 November 1797 Amplias's father John Grigg bapt @ Christ Church, Oldbury - even though bapt record says "Joseph son of Joseph & Hannah Grigg"?
2. c1798. Mary Horton[/b] born (father: Thomas Horton)
3. 21 Feb 1816 John Clarke (father: John, a miner) m. Mary Horton (father: Thomas Horton).
4. 1816-1830, John Clarke died some time .
5. 26 November 1820. John Grigg bach married Mary Sheldon spinst @ St. Thomas' Dudley ITPO Hannah Sheldon & S. Paskin by Banns. Bride groom, & witnesses all signed. First born: William 1821
3. 30 Aug 1827. Mary Grigg (nee Sheldon) buried at All Saints, West Brom aged 24, abode Oldbury (as per Jackie's 29Apr17) post). Last child Job bapt 1826 @ Smethwick by John & Mary of Smethwick.
4. 11 Aug 1830. Amplias' father John Grigg (b. 1797) remarried - Mary Clarke (nee Horton, also a widow), which means that Amplias' mother is actually Mary Horton.
5. 21 August 1831 Amplias bapt d. of John Grigg (jobbing smith) and Mary (nee Horton then Clarke).
6. 26 November 1835 John Grigg buried Church St Wesleyan Chapel, Oldbury, Worcs aged 38; 4 yo Amplias goes to live with Thomas & Ellen Clarke (Thomas likely was John's bro).
7. 5 Nov 1837 Mary Grigg (nee Horton, then Clarke) (full age-widow-father Thomas Horton) married Joseph (Jesse?) Timmins (full age-widower-bricklayer-father Moses) of Princes End @ All Sts Sedgley (just 3 mls from Dudley), ITPO Thomas & Maria Fanton.
8. 1841C. Amplias (10) living with Thomas & Ellen Clarke & family @ Bromford Street, West Bromwich, Staffs (who married 21 Oct 1839 @ All Saints, W Brom ITPO William Grigg & Maria Fanton).
9. 1841C. Next door: Joseph & Mary (nee Horton, then Clarke) Timmins with son Leonard, who is Amplias' half brother (b. 1839 Dudley Union/Workhouse). Why is Mary in the workhouse, if married to Jos. Timmins in 1837?
10. 1851C at Oldbury, Worcs, Amplias' half bro Leonard Timmins age 11 is visiting a Thomas + Maria Fanton.
11. 1852, Amplias married Edward Yieveley in Smethwick ITPO John (1/2 bro?) & Mary Ann Clarke.
What do you think?
Best wishes - and many thanks, again
John
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Could there be a connection with the following..
1841 census West Bromwich Staffs H0107/978 Bk5 folio27 page 10
Thomas Clarke 20
Ellen 20
John 15
Ann 15
Hamphles Grig 10
next door
Joseph Timmins 40 bricklayer
Mary 40
Leonard 2
I know the above is Joseph...but...
Marriage All Sts Sedgley 5th Nov 1837
Jesse Timmins-full age-widower-bricklayer-father Moses
+
Mary Grigg-full age-widow-father Thomas Horton
Abode Princes End
Witnesses Thomas + Maria Fanton.
In 1851 at Oldbury Worcs-Leonard Timmins age 11 is visiting a Thomas + Maria Fanton.
Jackie
Full circle! And who else is a visitor with Leonard and the Fantons in the 1851C @ Oldbury? None other than Amplias' future husband, Edward Everley (Hivaley), also a sawyer. Amplias and Edward married the following year. Useful corroboration for your findings, huh?
Many thanks again - and to the others who helped.
Best
John
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John
So you are all sorted!!
Good Luck
Jackie
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... Well, you know this line of business. So, as sorted as best I can - thanks to yours and others' help.
Many many thanks. You have been a great help.
Best wishes
John