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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: bellysally on Tuesday 02 May 17 01:44 BST (UK)

Title: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: bellysally on Tuesday 02 May 17 01:44 BST (UK)
I am starting to wonder if my great grandmother Frances Jane Ward was adopted.
I have a baptism record for Frances Jane which reads born 10 October 1849 and baptised 10 November 1850 at St Thomas, Birmingham. Her parents were William and Frances Ward.
William and Frances (nee Ware) were married on 3 October 1841 at St Martin, Birmingham. I have no other children for the couple that I can find records for. Also when William and Frances emigrated to NZ from Liverpool in 1856, they came out with just Frances Jane who was age 7 at the time.
When Frances Jane was 17 she married under the maiden name of Taylor and one of her children (my grandmother) was registered at birth as a Taylor and Frances Jane's name on the birth register was Frances Jane Taylor (no father info) but none of her other children were given the name Taylor. Frances Jane had 12 children - 3 from her marriage to John James Keefe and 9 from her de facto relationship with Charles DeMalmanche (my g/mother was from that relationship).
I was just curious to see where the Taylor name came from and did a search on Find My Past for a Frances Jane Taylor and found a birth record for that name which read - Frances Jane Taylor, born Aston, Warwickshire, 1849, birth quarter 4, Vol 16, Page 171. I then went onto GRO but I got no results, also searched with lesser information as well as under the surname Ward.
 William and Frances were married for eight years before Frances Jane was born and I do realize back in those days there were a lot of infant deaths but it is the fact why did she also use Taylor as her maiden name when she married, and also her father William Ward was a witness to the marriage, and on one of her childrens birth registrations.
 Does anyone know how I can go about finding out about adoptions for Birmingham or any other part of Warwickshire? The birth record I found on FindMyPast does not have any father or mother information.
 Thanks in advance for any help
    Kind Regards, Judy
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 02 May 17 03:43 BST (UK)
Can't really help with the issue of possible adoption, but just want to clarify that the birth registration for Frances Jane TAYLOR at Aston Union Dec qtr is on the GRO index, with no mother's maiden name given, so possibly illegitimate. You could order the certificate, presumably it would have the mother's name (but probably not the father), but I'm not sure that will help you much unless you can link the mother to someone in the family?
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 02 May 17 03:46 BST (UK)
And it is also on the following index   
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/

JM
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 02 May 17 03:59 BST (UK)
NZ BDM index has four births for mother as Frances Jane KEEFE, father as John and/or John James and one birth under O’KEEFE for mother as Frances Jane and father as John James

1868 Mary Jane (as O’KEEFE)
1869  Anna Maria
1871 Frances Elizabeth
1880 William Emery
1885 Ethel Amelia

https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/home

JM
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: bellysally on Tuesday 02 May 17 10:15 BST (UK)
Thank you for your replies and help. I went back onto GRO but somehow it comes up with no record for me. But it did come up on the freebmd showing just what I saw on find my past. And yes I know about the NZBDM online for the registered children for Frances Jane under Keefe or O'Keefe - ( she married John James Keefe - but he kind of "disappeared" out of the picture after spending jail time for horse stealing ) - and the birth registration for my grandmother Charlotte Rosannah under the name Taylor and mother Frances Jane Taylor and father n/r; and Josephine Adelaide under De Malmanche ( Frances Jane lived with Charles Joseph De Malmanche but they never married ). There were nine children that more than likely were born to Frances Jane and Charles J De Malmanche, and that is including my grandmother and William Emery and Ethel Amelia but at this time can not be certain.
I have contacted GRO by email asking them about Frances Jane Taylor as I would be interested in buying her birth certificate and gave them the details that came up on FindMyPast and hopefully soon they will get back in touch with me.
 Thanks Again and Kind Regards,
    Judy
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: trish1120 on Tuesday 02 May 17 11:19 BST (UK)
Just to let you know the GRO Index is different to FreeBMD.
https://www.gro.gov.uk
It is a fairly new site and you have to register to use it but its is free to search.
It has Mothers mn listed.

As maddys52 said that entry has no Mothers mn so likely illegitimate.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 02 May 17 11:31 BST (UK)
Now that you have the registration details for Frances Jane Taylor you can use them to order her birth certificate from the GRO online - you don't need to await an email response from them.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: trish1120 on Tuesday 02 May 17 12:04 BST (UK)
And cheaper from the GRO
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: jacquelineve on Tuesday 02 May 17 12:34 BST (UK)

 Have you found them on the 1851 census...


Jackie
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 02 May 17 12:38 BST (UK)
Yes, I was just wondering that? May give some more clues. I've had a quick look but can't see them easily.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: jacquelineve on Tuesday 02 May 17 14:11 BST (UK)
Still no luck finding them in 1851 census.....but found this interesting( can see from Frances' marriage
to Wlm Ward that her father was Gustavus + have found the family in 1841 inc.Frances)

Possibly Fra's sisters marriage Emma Ware Aug26 1852 St.Philips Birm.age 19(fits 1841) father
Gustavus...witnesses Charles Ward + Frances Ward

Francis Ware bapt.22nd April 1821 Cannock -Gustavus + Frances-also same day Richard + Maria

Checking G.R.O for youngest child of Gust+ Frances-mother Dean..

Marriage Gustavus Ware + Frances Dean 27 Dec 1811 St Mary's Portsea

Not a Taylor in sight!!!

Jackie
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 02 May 17 18:40 BST (UK)
Hi Judy,

I wonder if you may have made the same mistake as I did when I first used the GRO Index.

There are 2 separate boxes for first and second forenames, I made the mistake of entering both forenames in the same box and came up with nothing.

I have just tried using Frances Jane Taylor's birth details, with forenames in different boxes, and it works for me.

Hope this helps  :)
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: bellysally on Wednesday 03 May 17 00:22 BST (UK)
I finally got Frances Jane Taylor up on GRO! Not sure if changing my browser from IE to Chrome had anything to do with it but I now get her up even just using the surname plus birth year and district. I see it cost 9 pounds+ for a full birth certificate, and that's including postage which would be around $15 Australian. When I order BDM certs. from NZBDM online they cost me $20 and that is for sending it via email and not a full one. I have ordered the birth certificate and hopefully will give me the name of the mother and if it states whether she was illegitimate. But even then it does not help me knowing whether Frances Jane was adopted by William and Frances Ward. I was hoping there was somewhere where I could find adoption records as trying to figure out why Francis Jane used the surname of Taylor, especially when she married John James Keefe and her father William Ward was a witness. I cannot find a birth registration for a Frances Jane Ward that matches the birth year as yet.
I have for Frances (nee Ware) Ward all her family information I could find while searching, mainly on ancestry when I was a member - birth, baptism, marriage and death registrations, census records plus info. on their trip out to NZ in 1856 for Frances, William and Frances Jane and Frances Ward's Will and Probate (found on NZ Archives) and NZ Electoral Rolls. For William Ward all I have when he lived in England is his marriage to Frances Ware and the name of his father, Joseph Ward who was also a sawyer.
 Thanks again for all your advice and help. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: Annette7 on Wednesday 03 May 17 01:14 BST (UK)
Legal adoption did not start until 1927 so there will be no adoption records.

Any 'adoptions' that took place before then were private arrangements and there will be no record of these I'm afraid.

Annette
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 03 May 17 02:13 BST (UK)
This has a lot of similarities but a few things which don't add up & possibly a mix up with names/ages but thought I'd post it anyway just incase  ???

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGZF-RJF

Viewable on BlindMyPast & Fancestry


Annie
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 03 May 17 02:24 BST (UK)
Looking at your marriage date for William & Frances I think my post of the 1851 isn't them.

Too many older children unless a 2nd marriage for either or both?


Annie
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 03 May 17 03:32 BST (UK)
Looking at your marriage date for William & Frances I think my post of the 1851 isn't them.

Too many older children unless a 2nd marriage for either or both?


Annie

Yes, the maiden name of the mother of at least James and Lloyd is HIGGETT.

Added: also Charles, Thomas, Rebecca and Julia Ann.  ;)
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 May 17 03:34 BST (UK)
..... But even then it does not help me knowing whether Frances Jane was adopted by William and Frances Ward. I was hoping there was somewhere where I could find adoption records as trying to figure out why Francis Jane used the surname of Taylor, especially when she married John James Keefe and her father William Ward was a witness. .....

May I ask some questions re the NZ marriage record.... 
 
 :) Does it show the bride as a spinster or widow?  Widows often re-married under their married name rather than their birth name ...
 :) Does it state the relationship of the bride to the witness William Ward or perhaps nominate the location of the ceremony as 'at the home of the bride's father, William Ward' or similar ?

I don't know what additional information would be on either the NZ ITM (Intention to Marry) or the NZ BDM marriage Printout (different from the formal certificate) for that era, but I do know that the RChatters on the NZ board would likely be willing to help you further with advice.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/new-zealand/

JM
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 03 May 17 03:39 BST (UK)
That's a good thought JM. There is a marriage for a Jane WARD to Edwin TAYLOR in NZ in 1881.

Added: Oh ignore this, I forgot she was married at age 17, so not in 1881!
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 May 17 03:51 BST (UK)
And in that era the legal age for females to marry was likely to be 12, so it is possible she had been married previously, widowed, and at 17 was marrying for a second time. 

JM
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: bellysally on Wednesday 31 May 17 05:27 BST (UK)
The birth record I ordered from GRO for my great grandmother Frances Jane Ward arrived two days ago and I am positively sure that my great grandmother was adopted by William and Frances Ward.
 The birth register has her date of birth 10 October 1849 (exact same record of her birth date on her baptism record 12 months later) and Frances Jane was born at (back of)138 Moseley Street, Aston, Birmingham; mother ELIZABETH TAYLOR; father - blank; and informant of birth Charles Pountney (looks like the spelling) who was the occupier of above address where Frances Jane was born.
I have been searching census records for both Elizabeth Taylor and Charles Pountney and using the above address hoping it would give me some clues but no luck and I do realize the next census after Frances Jane's birth would have been in 1851, two years later.
Has anyone got any other ways/ideas that maybe I could search for both Elizabeth Taylor and Charles Pountney. Also I have no idea when and where Elizabeth Taylor was born but I have been searching with birth year from 1830-1835 and either Aston, or Warwickshire.
I know it's a long shot but....
 Thanks and Cheers
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 31 May 17 06:35 BST (UK)
Good luck with this .

Sorry I've not got time to read whole topic now .but have had some luck in discovering babies origins 
Send me a pm and i.ll get back to you asap

Just a few things to consider .. baptisms were sometimes made several months or years after birth

Middle names were sometimes used as a clue ..proof of father's identify

Unmarried mothers could apply for affiliation orders to get money for child
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 31 May 17 11:25 BST (UK)
This looks like them in 1851 census:

Moseley St, Aston

Charles Pountney    39    Birmingham  (Forger)
Jane Pountney           30    Birmingham
Thomas Pountney    4    Birmingham
Elizabeth Pountney    2    Birmingham
Charles Pountney    0    Birmingham
Elizabeth Taylor    Sister In Law    32    Birmingham

HO107/2060 / 386
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 31 May 17 11:40 BST (UK)
Charles POUNTNEY and Jane TAYLOR marriage registered at Kings Norton Dec qtr 1845 (18/538).
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 31 May 17 12:12 BST (UK)
+ Elizabeth Taylor was a witness. Father Thomas.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 31 May 17 12:12 BST (UK)
There is this possibility, though it probably needs more research to confirm:

There are these baptisms all on the same day at St Martin Birmingham to parents Richard TAYLOR and Margaret:
05 Sep 1822  Elizabeth
05 Sep 1822  James
05 Sep 1822  Mary
05 Sep 1822 Jane

quite a few other baptisms to children born to Richard and Margaret, though a bit earlier, so hard to say if they are the same family.


Added after reading Jim's post - ignore this, must be the wrong family!






Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: bellysally on Thursday 01 June 17 01:08 BST (UK)
WOW!!! And THANK YOU for all your help. The 1851 census definitely is the family and also the information of the marriage between Charles Pountney and Jane TAYLOR and Elizabeth TAYLOR being the witness to said marriage. The Jane in Frances Jane must be from Elizabeth's sister Jane.
 Frances Jane's adoptive parents William and Frances Ward must have always been open about adopting Frances Jane as Frances J used the name Taylor when she married and also used the name again when she had my grandmother. I am glad she did as it was from that I started wondering where did the Taylor come from!
 Thanking you all so much for all your help. I will start searching using all you have so kindly helped me with.
 Kind Regards, Judy x
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 01 June 17 03:38 BST (UK)
What an interesting thread with some good detective work by yourself & the others  ;)

I can't help wondering why someone as old as Elizabeth (although single) felt the need to have F J adopted as she seems to have had family around her to help?

Did she have an occupation on the census?

It just seems a bit sad but my other wonder is whether Elizabeth & the Taylors knew each other or were possibly related & my reasoning is the fact that there seemed to be no secret about who F J's mother was or at least what her birth surname was.

Have you looked into. any possible family relationship with the Taylors or is my curiosity just a step too far  ???

Annie
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 01 June 17 03:57 BST (UK)
Totally agree with snnie
And with adoptions and dubious births its worth looking at families and neighbours

Now you know elizabeth taylor was a single mum check out affiliatin orders

She may have done this if she originally intended to keep child within her gfamily or board her out

We paid the local record office to do this bit of research for us

The d ocument is beautiful .it names father in full .plus his age and address and how much to pay weekly til child 14 yrs.old

Will get back to you in pm when i can .

Also take a look at pages either side.of census page and make a note of neighbours and lodgers first  /  last names and proffessions



Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 01 June 17 04:34 BST (UK)

Did she have an occupation on the census?


Should have put it on the previous post - sorry - Elizabeth was noted as "warehouse woman".

When I was looking last night, I did see a marriage between a TAYLOR and WARD which looked interesting, but got distracted by yawning and bedtime ( ;) ). Will have another look now.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 01 June 17 04:48 BST (UK)
This was the marriage that intrigued me:

Thomas TAYLOR aged 65 (father's name William) married Mary WARD (father's name Thomas FOWLKES) aged 56 on 5 Nov 1854 at St George's Birmingham. In 1861 they are living in Aston.

Probably just a coincidence, being relatively common names.  ??? Although I do agree, there was probably some connection between the WARD's and Elizabeth TAYLOR.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 01 June 17 06:13 BST (UK)
Hi Maddy,

That's intriguing from my point of view/thoughts  ;)

Maybe my thought is too much lateral thinking but looking at the situ with age/family & what seems to be a close family it does make me wonder  ???

It's always another avenue too which may lead somewhere  ???


Annie
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: trish1120 on Thursday 01 June 17 17:06 BST (UK)
Excellent work everyone and a great outcome. ;)

Possible?

1841 Census
Birmingham. Wawickshire
Sarah Meadows, 40, Grocer
Geo Norton, 50, Taylor
Edwd Taylor, 25
Edwd Horton, 24
Elizabeth Taylor, 24
Jane Taylor, 20
Occp's are hard to make out for most of them.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: trish1120 on Thursday 01 June 17 17:27 BST (UK)
Jane Taylors Marriage to  Charles has her Father as Thomas, Occp Tool Maker

There is a 1842 Marriage of Edward Taylor, Father Thomas, Occp Tool Maker
Spouse Eliza Moule
Edward HORTON/Susan MEADOWS are Witnesses so fits 1841 Census I posted

Looking back at 1841 Census Edward is a Die Sinker which matches M/C.

From what I know letter cutter, die sinker & stamper are all to do with the printing business.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 01 June 17 17:39 BST (UK)
Just another thought....

Could Frances have been named after her adoptive mother if there was a close link with the Taylors or just a coincidence  :-\

Annie
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: jim1 on Thursday 01 June 17 18:18 BST (UK)
Saw the 1841 yesterday but couldn't find an Edward, Jane & Elizabeth Baptism to a Thomas that seemed to suit.
I did find Edward & Jane with parents Thomas & Elizabeth, Thomas was a steel toy maker on both. The one I found for Elizabeth with parents Thomas & Elizabeth had him as a purse spring maker so not convinced at the moment.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: bellysally on Friday 02 June 17 02:28 BST (UK)
I have been looking at census records that I have for the Ware family and going back and forth lots of pages to see if any Taylor's are on the same census but none so far. The 1841 census I have for Frances Ware is just a short time before her marriage to William Ward and Frances is living at home with her parents and siblings at Lower Trinity St, Birms. On their marriage record they are both residing at Lower Trinity St but what I cannot fathom is I cannot find any census records for William Ward for 1841! also have not been able to find any census records for 1851 for William, Frances and Frances Jane. The Ward family left Liverpool in Nov 1856 for Wellington, NZ on the "Indian Queen".
William Ward was a sawyer/builder and his father Joseph Ward was also a sawyer/builder.
I wondered if they both knew Thomas Taylor through their occupations as T Taylor was a tool maker.
Some members on ancestry have a 1851 census for a Charles William Ward b Pensford, Somerset, occ master miller out of business, wife Frances Jane b Manchester and Frances Jane b 1851 as she is only 2 mths on census. There is also a George Taylor b Scotland. But to me that is not the family as for starters Frances Jane was very proud that she came from Birmingham (my gmother used to tell me how she was proud of her birthplace) and on her headstone it reads from Birmingham.
 I just find it strange that I cannot find any census for William, Frances and F J for 1851.
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: maddys52 on Friday 02 June 17 05:09 BST (UK)
Saw the 1841 yesterday but couldn't find an Edward, Jane & Elizabeth Baptism to a Thomas that seemed to suit.
I did find Edward & Jane with parents Thomas & Elizabeth, Thomas was a steel toy maker on both. The one I found for Elizabeth with parents Thomas & Elizabeth had him as a purse spring maker so not convinced at the moment.

Looking at familysearch (which doesn't give father's occupations) there are 2 possible baptisms for Elizabeth with parents Thomas and Elizabeth at St Martin's Birmingham:
1 Aug 1816 and 16 June 1817 ?

Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: bellysally on Friday 02 June 17 05:54 BST (UK)
I looked at the 1/8/1816 and 16/6/1817 baptism records earlier this am and father's occupation for the 1816 is Victualler and 1817 Purse Spring Maker
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: trish1120 on Friday 02 June 17 06:07 BST (UK)
Looks like we all looked at the same Baptisms :)
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: zuluspirit on Wednesday 01 August 18 03:30 BST (UK)
I know this is an old post, but a very interesting read.

I am descended from Charles de Malmanche and did not know that he and Frances were not married.
I have a feeling that Frances was adopted in a whangi situation. Maybe William and Frances could not have children? As someone mentioned if official adoption wasnt around then, there could have been the whangi option.
Giving a child to a family to raise who can not have their own, or within a family/friends arrangement. Could have been her birth family could not afford more children. Hence the openness and her using her birth name.
In my tree there are many names for her and was hard working out what is what, but this thread has helped a bit. So thanks :-)

Kyleigh
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: zuluspirit on Wednesday 01 August 18 06:53 BST (UK)
Here is her headstone.

https://billiongraves.com/grave/Frances-Jane-De-Malmanche/11356030?referrer=myheritage

She is buried with Charles de Malmanche, and it says she is his wife. She was married to Keefe before Charles. She and John had 3 children she and Charles had 9.
If you have any more info on her I would love to hear it so I can have it correctly put in my family tree also.

Kyleigh
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: [Ray] on Wednesday 01 August 18 08:05 BST (UK)
Hi
Just in case . . . . .     


1851 Trinity Birkenhead, Oliver Street.
HO107 2175 268 38
 
Charles Wm Ward, 25, M, Miller, Somerset
Frances Jane Ward, 24, M, Birkenhead
Elizabeth M Jones, 4, StepDaur, Liverpool
Frances Jane Ward, 2m, Daur, Birkenhead
 
George Taylor, 26, U, Visitor, Commission Agent, Scotland,     

Kate Allan, 25, U, Servant, Ireland
William Brown, 16, U, Servant, Demerera

Marriage 1850 Mar Liverpool 20 211,     
Charles William Ward / Frances Jane Jones
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: bellysally on Thursday 02 August 18 03:52 BST (UK)
"zuluspirit" I have sent you a PM regarding Frances Jane.
 
Title: Re: Was my great grandmother adopted?
Post by: [Ray] on Thursday 02 August 18 08:58 BST (UK)
Hi

By sending info via pm then you cut out that info from all others trying to assist.     


You may also be causing duplication of effort and wasting the time of those trying to assist.