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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Liviani on Friday 05 May 17 19:00 BST (UK)
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On checking SP for a marriage between my 4x great-grandparents Alexander Guild and Christina Davidson, two entries come up for 1828. One dated, 26/11/1828 in Monikie and the other dated 12/12/1828 in Dundee.
Before I go ahead and order a copy of these extracts is it likely that both of these are the same people given the names and close proximity of the dates.
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On checking SP for a marriage between my 4x great-grandparents Alexander Guild and Christina Davidson, two entries come up for 1828. One dated, 26/11/1828 in Monikie and the other dated 12/12/1828 in Dundee.
Before I go ahead and order a copy of these extracts is it likely that both of these are the same people given the names and close proximity of the dates.
Yes. What it tells you is that at the time of the marriage one of them lived in Dundee and the other in Monikie.
The pre-1855 records are from the parish registers and they are in fact the records of proclamation of banns, rather than of the marriage ceremony itself. If follows that if they lived in different parishes the banns would have to be proclaimed in both parishes, and this is why there are apparently two records of the same marriage.
Do *not* attempt to 'order an extract'. You can view digital images of both entries online on the SP web site. They will cost you 6 credits each, total £3. 'Ordering an extract' will tell you nothing different, and will cost you much more than £3. (On reflection, I am not even sure you can actually 'order an extract' of a pre-1855 parish register listing.)
Be aware that the records of proclamation of banns are unlikely to tell you the names of the couple's parents. For that you would need to get their death certificates, assuming they died in Scotland after 1855. These should tell you the full names of their parents, including their mothers' maiden surnames.
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On checking SP for a marriage between my 4x great-grandparents Alexander Guild and Christina Davidson, two entries come up for 1828. One dated, 26/11/1828 in Monikie and the other dated 12/12/1828 in Dundee.
Before I go ahead and order a copy of these extracts is it likely that both of these are the same people given the names and close proximity of the dates.
Yes. What it tells you is that at the time of the marriage one of them lived in Dundee and the other in Monikie.
The pre-1855 records are from the parish registers and they are in fact the records of proclamation of banns, rather than of the marriage ceremony itself. If follows that if they lived in different parishes the banns would have to be proclaimed in both parishes, and this is why there are apparently two records of the same marriage.
Do *not* attempt to 'order an extract'. You can view digital images of both entries online on the SP web site. They will cost you 6 credits each, total £3. 'Ordering an extract' will tell you nothing different, and will cost you much more than £3. (On reflection, I am not even sure you can actually 'order an extract' of a pre-1855 parish register listing.)
Be aware that the records of proclamation of banns are unlikely to tell you the names of the couple's parents. For that you would need to get their death certificates, assuming they died in Scotland after 1855. These should tell you the full names of their parents, including their mothers' maiden surnames.
Thanks for confirming that Forfarian.
I think I made an error in what I was trying to say. I had just meant the . section rather than "ordering an extract". I'd used the wrong terminology there. My apologies.
I think I'll not bother wasting credits on viewing this entry given that not much information is presented in them.
By the 1871 census Christina is shown as widowed at "Chrispanhall Connonsyth", Carmyllie Parish.
(This looks grossly mis-transcribed on findmypast and ancestry, I live near the area and have heard of nothing like this place?).
Alexander is in the 1851 at "Crispon Hall of Cononsyth". So this is the same place. Still it's not familiar to me?
I think the Alexander Guild that died aged 62 in 1869 in Carmyllie is the same man. So I will go ahead and view this image on SP.
Thanks again. But I don't suppose you have any clues as to this "Crispon Hall of Cononsyth" at all?
Jill.
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Never mind, the death certificate has answered the 'Crispanhall' issue.
It's written as Christian Hall on his death cert. ::)
Parents listed as Alexander Guild. Salmon Fisher.
and Jane (can't make it out yet). Looks like Morgan.
He died due to chronic inflammation of the liver on 27th August 1869. Perhaps a wee alcohol problem there?
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Jill, with the parents you now have for Alexander, this looks to also be a sister for him www.genealogy.com/ftm/m/c/k/James-Fergusson-Mckellican/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0239.html
Monica
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Alexander's 1806 birth here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYNJ-QGQ
Monica
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The Arbroath Herald has a 1906 death notice entry which has deceased's address as Christian Hall, Cononsyth.
Cononsyth
Cononsyth Mansion was built in the early nineteenth century for the proprietor of Cononsyth Estate, consisting of the Home Farm, North Mains, Mid-Mains, South Mains, the Ditch and Smithyton.
per http://www.carmyllieheritage.co.uk/mansionhouses.html .
So, perhaps it was a 'tied' house, on the estate, for workers.
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I think I'll not bother wasting credits on viewing this entry given that not much information is presented in them.
If you can get to Dundee Public Library, Forfar Public Library or the Tay Valley Family History Shop, you should be able to view the originals on microfilm
This looks grossly mis-transcribed on findmypast and ancestry
Both (and especially Ancestry) notorious for mistranscriptions. Viewing the originals, either on SP or on microfilm in one of the aforementioned places would be better.
I've heard of Cononsyth, of course, but I have no idea what the significance of Christian Hall is. I took a look at the New Statistical Account of Carmyllie at
http://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/viewer/nsa-vol11-Parish_record_for_Carmylie_in_the_county_of_Forfar_in_volume_11_of_account_2/?search=carmylie
but found nothing about it.
You can get liver inflammation for other reasons than alcohol!
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Scotmum, from what you mention, the SP 1855 Valuation Rolls show:
Alexander GOLD (Guild?)
Tenant Occupier
CHRISTIAN HALL PENDICLE ESTATE OF CONONSYTH
CARMYLLIE
1855
VR008800001
Monica
Added: The 1865 VRs show Alexander Gold at PENDICLE CHRISTIANHILL ESTATE OF CONONSYTH
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Dundee Courier, 1934, mentions:
Pendicles for Sale. FORFARSHIRE—CONONSYTH ESTATE. The pendicles of christianhill and SUMMERHILL, Cononsyth, in the Parish of Carmyllie and County of Angus, presently occupied by John Arbuthnott, are to Let together
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pendicle n. 1. a piece of land or property forming a subsidiary to an estate
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Summerhill http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=56.6130&lon=-2.7170&layers=5&b=1 but I still haven't found Christianhill.
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Thank you everyone for the information you've provided here.
@Forfarian
I can get to those places. I'm currently living in Arbroath. I wasn't aware Dundee Library (I take it you mean the central library in the Wellgate?) and Forfar Library had family history resources. Brilliant! I will be sure to check this out. And Tay Valley Family History (it's the one at the bottom of Albert Street right?).
@Monica
Yes those look to be the correct records in relation to Alexander. I've added his sibling to my tree and his birth parish etc. Thank you.
With regards to the Alexander Gold mentioned in Valuation Rolls. I do think this to be the same person. I did some light googling in regards to the surname "Guild" to get a basic idea of its origins and locations it was found and there is some relation to it being known as "Gold" at times. Definitely think this is Alexander Guild.
@Scotmum
Thank you for the references to Christian hall that you provided. Very useful!
@everyone
Out of curiosity does anyone know how the information for valuation rolls was gathered? Was it perhaps the proprietor that gave the information of their tenants to someone (a tax man?) or was it more like the census where they visited each property? I have a feeling it's a mis-transcribe there or the proprietor gave the wrong information with regards to Alexander.
I've not had much luck in tracking down Christian Hall either. I've looked at old maps on Digimap, I have access to their historical and other collections through an educational account and there is no trace of Christian Hall/Hill anywhere near Cononsyth. I've seen Summerhill however. ???
It's definitely noted as Christanhall on the death cert of Alexander. See image below.
Thanks again for your help everyone.
Jill
(https://image.ibb.co/fN6AJ5/Capture.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
post images (https://imgbb.com/)
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Jill, some background notes on Valuation Rolls www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/valuation-rolls
Monica :)
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Jill, some background notes on Valuation Rolls www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/valuation-rolls
Monica :)
Thank you Monica. :)
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I am connected to Christian Davidson (1807-30/12/1890. Died at Maryton, Inverkeilor) who married Alexander Guild (1807-27/8/1869) died in Carmyllie. As you said married 1828
Christian is a twin. Parents Andrew Davidson and Christian Petrie of Murroes
1851 Census
St Vigeans
Address: Grange Of Conon Cotterhouse
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Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born
GUILD Alexander Head M M 45 Agricultural Labourer Angus - Barry
GUILD Christina Wife M F 44 Agricultural Labourer's Wife Angus - Murroes
GUILD Jane Dau - F 11 Scholar Angus - Dundee
GUILD Betsy Dau - F 9 Scholar Angus - Dundee
GUILD Thomas Son - M 7 Scholar Angus - Dundee
GUILD Peter Son - M 5 Scholar Angus - Dundee
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I am connected to Christian Davidson (1807-30/12/1890. Died at Maryton, Inverkeilor) who married Alexander Guild (1807-27/8/1869) died in Carmyllie. As you said married 1828
Christian is a twin. Parents Andrew Davidson and Christian Petrie of Murroes
1851 Census
St Vigeans
Address: Grange Of Conon Cotterhouse
________________________________________
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born
GUILD Alexander Head M M 45 Agricultural Labourer Angus - Barry
GUILD Christina Wife M F 44 Agricultural Labourer's Wife Angus - Murroes
GUILD Jane Dau - F 11 Scholar Angus - Dundee
GUILD Betsy Dau - F 9 Scholar Angus - Dundee
GUILD Thomas Son - M 7 Scholar Angus - Dundee
GUILD Peter Son - M 5 Scholar Angus - Dundee
Hi, thanks for this information. I didn't notice that she was a twin. Fascinating.
Alexander Guild and Christian/Christina Davidson are my maternal 4x ggrandparents. Their daughter Jane is my ancestor.