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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Roscommon => Topic started by: Washy on Saturday 06 May 17 19:35 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone trying to connect a Thomas Doherty with his family, he's in England on the 1901 census and died in England 1951.
Thomas Doherty
Ireland Births and Baptisms
Name Thomas Doherty
Gender Male
Birth Date 29 Dec 1877
Birthplace Ireland
Father's Name Michael Doherty
Mother's Name Bridget Mcgreal Doherty same birth date he gave on the 1939 reg.
found this but not convinced his parents
1901 Residents of a house 33 in Cloonlumney (Edmondstown, Roscommon)
Surname Forename Age Sex Relation to head Religion Birthplace Occupation Literacy Irish Language Marital Status Specified Illnesses
Doherty Michael 55 Male Head of Family Roman Catholic Co Mayo Farmer Cannot read Irish and English Married -
Doherty Bridget 52 Female Wife Roman Catholic Co Mayo - Cannot read Irish and English Married -
Doherty James 13 Male Son Roman Catholic Co Mayo Scholar Read and write - Not Married
Don't know where to go from here any help appreciated
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Hi Washy,
Your information is a bit difficult to follow - it is best to transcribe the information rather than just copy and paste with all the added bits ;D
Where is Thomas in England in 1901?
Are you saying that the baptism is him and therefore those parents?
Have you checked 1911 for the family you have posted re the numbers of children born etc?
Regards
Heywood
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Hi heywood Thomas is in Manchester 1901. 1911 married living in Salford. Has birth as 29th Dec 1877 on 1939 reg & found birth on family search site. Have tried looking for family in Ireland 1911 but can't find them in Roscommon. Have info that Thomas was born on farm & his daughter visited it which I think was after his death in 1951 & family still there that's why not convince this is his family. Sorry about the added bits :)
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Do you have his father from the marriage certificate?
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I can only see him in 1911 - if that is him- and we are not allowed to post details as you know but there are relatives with him whose names may be useful for searching.
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I know but saying that, before I knew his birth date found a family in Roscommon which fit perfectly but parent where Martin & Ellen Doherty which fit a Thomas born 15th Dec 1877 on family search site ;D had all the family names including a Dominic, Thomas had a son Dominic but he died not long after birth.
He has a brother Martin born abt 1881 Roscommon but he is on the 1901 census Manchester
Children Thomas, Alice, Michael, Dominic, Mary, Martin, Frances, James & Kathleen.
Only have this for marriage
Thomas Doherty Mary CAMPBELL 1903 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended. Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/163/8
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There is this birth for Thomas with mother McGreal.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02972/2088860.pdf
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Then there are two similar ones for Martin- this is the one with the same townland
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02823/2035978.pdf
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This is the other for a Martin but different townland and date of birth.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02812/2031626.pdf
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You don't say, despite being asked, who Parents were but this is a possible
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another..
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Thankyou Heywood That's brilliant :) can you help me decipher please Ballyagahaderrum Castterea is that right? Sorry Hallmark if I didn't make things clear I did post
Thomas Doherty
Ireland Births and Baptisms
Name Thomas Doherty
Gender Male
Birth Date 29 Dec 1877
Birthplace Ireland
Father's Name Michael Doherty
Mother's Name Bridget Mcgreal Doherty same birth date he gave on the 1939 reg.
which I said I got of the family search site
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I read it as Carrownagruckane
Here is a list of townlands - Gou could check this against the two births.
You should really get the marriage certificate to make sure. You mention Campbell.
There is a Martin in 1901 and lodging in the same house there is an Annie Campbell.
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hi yes I think that is Mary's sister :)
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Here is the marriage - it still looks like Carrownagruckane.
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633963#page/34/mode/1up Number 12 - Feb 1877
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It sounds as though you are just grabbing at any records with might fit and making too many assumptions :-\
The LDS record you cut and pasted is an extracted birth one- link to the actual birth certificate posted in reply #6
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5RL-YTY
You need to check the marriage certificate for father's name and occupation to see if the birth record is likely.
The Poor Law Union/ Registration District is Castlerea(gh) and sub-district is Ballaghderreen. The spelling of the townland where he was born seems to be a variation of Carrownaknockaun.
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Hi aghadowey not sure what you mean by The LDS record you cut and pasted is an extracted birth one- link to the actual birth certificate posted in reply #6
Its says on the family search site from Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881
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Hi aghadowey,
I have reminded Washy to check with the marriage certificate.
However, the baptism, civil record and 1939 have the same birth date so that is a strong possibility that it is the same person plus the brother, Martin.
Let's hope that Washy can confirm all this through the marriage certificate.
Heywood
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Yes, it says "Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881" but it is an extracted birth record. That's why it's best to look at the original record (see link posted in reply #6)
Yes the birthdate does seem to fit but with a common surname like Doherty anything is possible :)
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Thank you Heywood when I searched for his birth abt 1877 it only came up with a few and only one with the exact date on family search so I assumed the site had all the birth records is that no so? Will take advise about marriage cert though
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The LDS extracted births aren't complete.
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Thank you didn't know that :-[
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Yes, it says "Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881" but it is an extracted birth record. That's why it's best to look at the original record (see link posted in reply #6)
Yes the birthdate does seem to fit but with a common surname like Doherty anything is possible :)
I agree - but then there is also Roscommon too ;)
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Washy,
Here is the birth of Mary Doherty - possibly the one in 1911 index and with the same parents :)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02643/1974583.pdf
Good luck with the marriage certificate - let's hope all fits together.
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Thank you so much would never have found them (If I have right ones :) will see on marriage cert) Just seen new post it has to be them. I must apologise I'm really sorry had in my mind Mary was Martins wife must have been late when I did it & didn't copy all info
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Still being cautious!
I think this is the same Michael but now married to Mary Jane Gribbon. There is a marriage on Irish Genealogy site abt 1886, I think. The child Dominick has mother Bridget McGreal but shows here as a child of Mary Jane.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Roscommon/Artagh_North/Carnagruckane/765126/
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Hi was just looking at that family names appearing but still being cautious ;D
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Is it me or does it screw up a bit on the 1901 census think I smiled too soon
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Do you mean the ages? They can be a bit odd at times.
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Hi Heywood yes seems right family but as you say ages all wrong, never easy this :)
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You need to look at Irish Genealogy site - Civil records Castlerea district - there are lots of Dohertys though!
Here is Dominic's baptism http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633962#page/35/mode/1up
You will see that there is a note on the left re his marriage in 1934 - quite late in life - you can check this on Irish Genealogy and a witness is John Joe.
That's how I arrived at the censuses. It needs double checking and linking. If your man hasn't got a father, Michael, then you will have to begin again. As you say, it is not easy. ;)
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Thank you really appreciate all your help & the great links :)
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Hi Heywood Must be doing something wrong looked for Dominic's marriage but came up with no records found was it an Anna Young he married :-[
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Hello,
It's Ann Towey - the marriage on Irish Genealogy is Annie Towey.
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Sorry I'm still doing something wrong ???
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Got it don't know what I was doing wrong but it came up this time ;D
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Oh it's such good fun!
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;D ;D ;D Getting use to it now think I found Bridget's death 1866 age 33. Michael would have had 4 children & the youngest Mary would have been under a year old. No wonder he had to marry so quickly.
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Yes, that's what usually happened!
I know I keep saying it but you do need to make sure of the father's identity, especially now there is such a lot of information.
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Going to sort it, will :'( though if it doesn't say Michael. :) will let you know.
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Going to sort it, will :'( though if it doesn't say Michael. :) will let you know.
Aagh! (Hands over eyes)
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Hi Heywood marriage certificate ordered, says dispatch date 30th May What! Not ordered a certificate in a while but I'm sure you could search for marriage, but now only births & deaths. When did this change or am I wrong? Good job had information on marriage. Fingers crossed, but I have faith, with a lot of help from you think we are right ;D
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I hope so!
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Even if it goes wrong enjoyed doing it :) and we can start again lol
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Ta-Dah!
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Sorry about the size lol I tried just attaching copy said to big so cut it down. No good at this . It does say father Michael Doherty Farmer
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Thanks for the information. All seems to match up so hope that is the right family. :)
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Hi Heywood I'm really please I sent for it but would like some help on how to post a better copy so I could ask some questions. I would normally get my youngest son to do it for me but he's living in Japan at the moment so not easy for him to pop home & help me lol.
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Hi Heywood I'm really please I sent for it but would like some help on how to post a better copy so I could ask some questions. I would normally get my youngest son to do it for me but he's living in Japan at the moment so not easy for him to pop home & help me lol.
email it to him!
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Any better?
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Better than I can do thankyou ;D One of my questions is that it looks like the registrar has signed everything but there isn't any x to show their mark, is this unusual?
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If there is no 'X' it means they are literate or can sign their name which would be right for that time. He is a Commercial Traveller, I think, so one would imagine he would be quite literate.
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Hi Heywood That's another thing been reading up on commercial travellers and & it maybe he called himself that to distinguish himself from Travellers. From where he came from can't imagine he was well educated, a small farm in Ireland that from what I have researched didn't make enough living to support all the family hence older children leaving. Also it seems that the Commercial Travellers Association made a complaint about people who had been arrested saying they were commercial travellers when they weren't registered giving them a bad name. I maybe wrong need to find out if he was registered. I have tried putting the family together, from the census there are 29 households 7 of which are Doherty the most families. Thought at first Martin was the father & the others brothers or sons like Michael. However it seems that the older ones are probable cousins. Seems a trend that the one son inherited the farm & the others moved away. This just my thoughts though.
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Have you checked 1911 census- did he complete it himself?
What is his occupation there?
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Hi In 1911 he's a chip shop owner & on the 1939 he's a wardrobe dealer :) I sent manchester archives an email to find out if they have records of members, you can pay to get some research done but they say they have checked & can't find any mention of them. I'm sure I read they had the records. ??? I haven't see the original census records just have information, he may have been able to read & write but from what I have read professional commercial travellers where middle class & I don't think he fits the bill. Also noticed that Mary was about 4/5 months pregnant when they married I did think something was a miss when I saw it was a registrar marriage.
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Is he a barman in 1901? I am hoping I have the right man.
He perhaps just made himself a bit more important on his marriage or was briefly a traveller selling goods.
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That's exactly how I feel, glad just not me. Just one more question with parts lol, if you don't mind & if you know anything about the Griffiths valuation. Only 1 came up for the Doherty family says printed 1847 was this when it was taken? Says Griffiths was from 1848 to 1864 ??? Is there more just me being stupid. Also gives maps to the land modern & old numbered but says in correlation to map but is this in correlation to house numbers as well very???? Yes I think he was a barman because close to his brother Martin same job, thought he was a farm labourer at first with other family members but they were older than him which didn't fit as he was the eldest & wrong area.
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I can't access the site you must have which has maps but here is a list of Dohertys in Tibohine parish which includes Carrownaknockaun.
http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/cgi-bin/lrgrifnew
This site - another one http://www.failteromhat.com/roscommon.php shows Griffiths dated 1857/8
This will be the same information you have and you can check the maps. Griffiths gives you the plot numbers.
If you mean the house numbers which are in censuses, these are not numbers as such. They are just the way the enumerator recorded the houses in the townland.
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That first link doesn't seem to work, sorry, but wherever you have Griffiths, search in Tibohine parish.
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Oh! thank you thought I was at a full stop. Too tried tonight, have grand childrend tomorrow so, you know how it goes. lol