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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: grantleydawn on Monday 15 May 17 05:54 BST (UK)
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I am trying to locate the place "Tillaysoue" as appears in the following 1785 Baptism entry from the registers of the Parish of Lintrathen.
Can anyone help me please?
Regards
Grantley
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Grantley, there is a place of the same name on the back road between Dingwall & Evanton, in Ross-shire, the Tallysow, it means a kind of inn or soldiers billet.
Skoosh.
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Skoosh, as Elspeth was Thomas's servant, do you think this implies he might have been an Innkeeper or soldier?
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In the 1841 census there are two households at Tillysoul, which is almost certainly your Tillaysoue.
It is listed in the same enumeration distict as Inzion, Wetrisk, Strone, Purgavie, Foldend, Pitmudie, Schoolhouse, Bridgend, Manse, Cothelhill, Kinnaird and Shannally, all of which can be found (with occasional spelling variations) on the First Edition of the six-inch Ordnance Survey map.
See http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=56.6844&lon=-3.1643&layers=5&b=1 - you can move it around, zoom in and out, and compare then and now by sliding the blue button in the menu box on the left.
This enumeration district is roughly north and east of the Loch of Lintrathen.
Tillysoul is listed in the census between Inzion and Pitmudie. So it is reasonable to suppose that it was somewhere a mile or two north of the loch, and north of the Melgam Water.
I see that the map shows some unnamed buildings along a track north from Inzion. These could be outbuildings or cottarhouses on Inzion, but it is just possible that one of them might be Tillysoul. On the other hand, I see that the large complex of buildings that made up Inzion in the mid-19th century has vanished, and the name Inzion is now applied to these outlying cottages. See http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NO2756
Most or all of this area belonged to the Earl of Airlie. There could be something of relevance in the Airlie papers in the National Records of Scotland. See http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/scancatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GB234%2fGD16&st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=y&tp=n&k=airlie&ko=o&r=&ro=s&
Probably nothing to do with this query, but there are some wonderful place names in the 1841 census that now seem to be lost, including Tipperwhig and Drumlygob!
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Ye certainly know your Inzions FF. ;D
Skoosh.
P.S found this, Tallysow = tillet de soulds, soldiers billets, French.
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Tillysoul doesn't seem to appear anywhere on Scotland's Places.
I can find plenty regarding neighbouring places such as Inzion and Pitmudie. It must've been near to these places given what Forfarian found in the 1841 censuses.
I've found some information regarding these two places on Scotland's Places here:
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/forfarshire-angus-os-name-books-1857-1861/forfar-angus-volume-62/60
However this is from the 1850s with no record of Tillysoul at all. This indicates to me that the 'Solider's Billets' or 'Inn' have all but long disappeared by this time.
However, you can see from the link above that the lands were owned by the Earl of Airlie. Other than that I can find nothing regarding Tillysoul on Google (other than non-related places elsewhere), NLS maps and Scotland's Places. We know it existed in 1841 with the census entries. The occupations of the residents there was ag labs. So as a guess these were probably very small cottages given the occupations.
I've tried to find the same place on the 1851 census to no avail, this indicates that the location has completely gone. Given the time period it could perhaps be something to do with the way farming changed in the 1840s? We know about the Highland Clearances when farm workers were moved off the land to make way for sheep which were more profitable. Perhaps this is why Tillysoul is gone now?
It's hard to garner if the person in question was an innkeeper or soldier. It would depend on when the use of the building changed. As we can see it was housing ag labs in 1841. Not an easy one.
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There is no mention of it on this rather nice 1794 Ainslie map:
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400188
"Lentrathan" is along bottom edge just to the right of centre.
There are probably more detailed maps available but I can't seem to find one, and have lost a couple of good ones I used to have in my 'favourites'. :(
I believe Ainslie produced one in 1788 which looks to name farmsteads and other features, however I don't think this is available online. (I only saw a snippet and couldn't find the full map).
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There is no mention of it on this rather nice 1794 Ainslie map:
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400188
"Lentrathan" is along bottom edge just to the right of centre.
There are probably more detailed maps available but I can't seem to find one, and have lost a couple of good ones I used to have in my 'favourites'. :(
I believe Ainslie produced one in 1788 which looks to name farmsteads and other features, however I don't think this is available online. (I only saw a snippet and couldn't find the full map).
I tried those too, sadly it doesn't seem to name smaller farmsteads etc. It even has a small estate that I know existed in the 1770s missing in Perthshire.
It's a pity the 1788 map isn't available online.
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There is no mention of it on this rather nice 1794 Ainslie map:
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400188
"Lentrathan" is along bottom edge just to the right of centre.
This is totally irrelevant to the OPs question but I've just noticed that they have 'Inzion' down as 'Onion' on the map. ;D ;D ;D
The Scotland's Places link that I linked in my earlier post did say that an alternative name for Inzion was Onion.
;D ;D
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However this is from the 1850s with no record of Tillysoul at all. This indicates to me that the 'Solider's Billets' or 'Inn' have all but long disappeared by this time.
I would be cautious about assuming that the meaning of the place name in Lintrathen had the same origin as the one between Dingwall and Evanton, or that, if the origin was the same, it was still an inn or a soldiers' billet in 1785. It was certainly nothing like that in 1841, where both households were headed by an agricultural labourer.
The Ordnance Survey booklet about the origins of place names says that Tilly and Tully are ultimately from Gaelic 'tulach', which means a knoll or hillock or a small (green) eminence. James B Johnson's Place Names of Scotland concurs. I would guess that '-soul' could be from 'sabhal', meaning barn, so the composite name would be something like Barnhillock in English. Apart from Tomintoul, which is from Tom-an-t-sabhail and means pretty much the same thing, I can't immediately think of anywhere else that ends with '-soul' or similar.
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This is totally irrelevant to the OPs question but I've just noticed that they have 'Inzion' down as 'Onion' on the map. ;D ;D ;D
Not altogether surprising. 'Onion' is pronouncd 'Ing-in' in various parts of Scotland, and when I saw 'Inzion' on the map, that's exactly how I would expect it to be pronounced.
I remember as a child going to order 'twa plain bradies an an inginy ane an a', which being translated means 'two plain bridies and one with onions'. Sadly, you don't seem to be able to get plain bridies these days - they all have onions in them, and I dislike the taste of onions :(
And while on the topic of bridies, I object to these things that purport to be bridies but have flaky pastry or (even worse) contain potatoes. A proper self-respecting Forfar bridie has shortcrust pastry and definitely no tatties.
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This is totally irrelevant to the OPs question but I've just noticed that they have 'Inzion' down as 'Onion' on the map. ;D ;D ;D
Not altogether surprising. 'Onion' is pronouncd 'Ing-in' in various parts of Scotland, and when I saw 'Inzion' on the map, that's exactly how I would expect it to be pronounced.
I remember as a child going to order 'twa plain bradies an an inginy ane an a', which being translated means 'two plain bridies and one with onions'. Sadly, you don't seem to be able to get plain bridies these days - they all have onions in them, and I dislike the taste of onions :(
And while on the topic of bridies, I object to these things that purport to be bridies but have flaky pastry or (even worse) contain potatoes. A proper self-respecting Forfar bridie has shortcrust pastry and definitely no tatties.
I hadn't thought of that, but now that you mention it it's actually a very important point to keep in mind for family research in Scotland. You'd imagine that many places were pronounced and therefore spelt in a "non-anglicised" way at the time. Nothing was standard back then unlike today. I look at my own surname "McKenzie" and realise that in the past it's "correct" pronunciation is something like "McKenny" this applies to Menzies and the like too.
The "ingin" (onion) thing is something I'd heard of before.
I guess as time goes on these "Scot-isms" disappear and places names change completely.
I grew up in the 80s/90s and was actually scolded by parents for not using "proper" English so everything I said was standard English. Even although they used many Scots words themselves. I suppose it was a sign of the times. Sad but language does change.
I like a good Forfar Bridie myself, but refuse to buy it outside of Forfar, and I'm not there very much. :D
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I grew up in the 80s/90s and was actually scolded by parents for not using "proper" English so everything I said was standard English. Even although they used many Scots words themselves. I suppose it was a sign of the times. Sad but language does change.
Likewise, though I was a decade or three ahead of you. If my parents had heard me asking for "twa plain bradies an an inginy ane an a", I'd have earned myself a guid skelp on the dowp or mebbe on the lug!
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There's more than one Achnasaul ;D
Skoosh.
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Good thinking, Skoosh. 'Achadh' meaning 'field' and 'sabhal' meaning 'barn'?
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Thank you everyone, for your massive help.
Not being Scottish, the postings have taken me on a broad journey - googling everything.
Regards
Grantley
PS: Living in South Australia, influenced by the Cornish, I only know of a pastie with potato & onion.
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I will be definitely seeking out a Forfar Bridie when/if next I am in the area! :)
It is fascinating to see the old place names, and sad to see that so many of the places have disappeared over the centuries.
A few years ago I came across one or two old maps (from the 1700s if I recall correctly) which, as I mentioned in my last post, had a lot of detail, even including farmsteads - I remember being thrilled to find one relating to my Brother in Law's family. I am presuming it was an NLS map, but I can't for the life of me find it. It is possible there were only these very detailed maps of a couple of counties rather than all of Scotland.
Can anyone please point me in the direction of any such maps that they are aware of? :)
Added: a section of the 1788 Ainslie map I referred to can be seen here:
http://bonniewilliam.com/generations/scottish-roots-aussie-beginnings-2/
Upon second look, it is not as detailed as I thought, and not as detailed as others I've seen. :-\
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Try http://maps.nls.uk/ - they have Ainslie's map of 1794 and Thomson's one of 1825. They're very similar, but I think Thomson is slightly clearer than Ainslie.
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I will be definitely seeking out a Forfar Bridie when/if next I am in the area! :)
It is fascinating to see the old place names, and sad to see that so many of the places have disappeared over the centuries.
A few years ago I came across one or two old maps (from the 1700s if I recall correctly) which, as I mentioned in my last post, had a lot of detail, even including farmsteads - I remember being thrilled to find one relating to my Brother in Law's family. I am presuming it was an NLS map, but I can't for the life of me find it. It is possible there were only these very detailed maps of a couple of counties rather than all of Scotland.
Can anyone please point me in the direction of any such maps that they are aware of? :)
Added: a section of the 1788 Ainslie map I referred to can be seen here:
http://bonniewilliam.com/generations/scottish-roots-aussie-beginnings-2/
Upon second look, it is not as detailed as I thought, and not as detailed as others I've seen. :-\
I have access to another map site called Digimap through an educational account, I'll see what I can find with the different maps there and let you guys know.
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PS: Living in South Australia, influenced by the Cornish, I only know of a pastie with potato & onion.
Ah, you haven't lived if you have only come across a Cornish pasty ;)
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A proper self-respecting Forfar bridie has shortcrust pastry and definitely no tatties.
And...would you believe, the worst tasting 'Forfar Bridie' I ever had was from a Baker's in Forfar!!!
Don't ask me the name of the shop as it was 15 - 20 yrs ago ::)
Not relevant to the topic but....
Just to add to the pronunciation of Inzion being Onion (for non Scots etc) but it would be similar to the surname of Menzies being pronounced as Minges/Mingus...'z' as a 'g'.
Annie
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I love to be told the correct pronunciations of place names in the UK, especially from a local. :)
I wish you hadn't mentioned bridies - now I have a craving for one. I think I will have to find a recipe as I don't think there are any authentic bridie bakers in my neck of the woods. :'(
Added: I found some recipes. ;) They look to be a circle of pastry halved - traditionally what would the diameter of the circle be, or doesn't it matter? Also, what should it be served with, if anything?
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Here you are Ruskie....
http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/4930/forfar-bridies--scottish-pasties-.aspx
Enjoy ;D
Annie
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Added: I found some recipes. ;) They look to be a circle of pastry halved - traditionally what would the diameter of the circle be, or doesn't it matter? Also, what should it be served with, if anything?
I would say roughly 6 - 8 inches (15 - 20cm)
My personal liking is with mashed potatoes (with butter & milk) & marrowfat peas & my favourite...a few bits of sliced beetroot....my mouth is watering now too ;D
Annie
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Thanks Annie. :)
But. The recipe in your link says to use lamb mince and a BBC one I read says beef mince. Which is it? ;D
Sorry to hijack your thread Grantley. ;)
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Ruskie,
I believe it's actually steak (minced)
Annie
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Thanks again Annie. :)
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Sorry to digress back to the original posting.
In support of the great detective work that assumed my 1785 "Tillaysoue" evolved to be the Tillysoul in the 1841 Census.
I now have a baptism in 1787 for a lawfull daughter of Thomas HANTON & Martha DUNCAN in Tillysowle. :)
Regards Grantley
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Here you are Ruskie....
http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/4930/forfar-bridies--scottish-pasties-.aspx
Those are ***not*** Forfar Bridies - they have flaky pastry, and lamb instead of beef. A travesty!
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridie - I note the suggestion that "in the rest of Scotland, flaky pastry is preferred". If they're made with shortcrust in Forfar, then obviously anything not made with shortcrust isn't a Forfar bridie!