RootsChat.Com

General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: granbinnie on Thursday 18 May 17 08:30 BST (UK)

Title: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: granbinnie on Thursday 18 May 17 08:30 BST (UK)
Both served with the Manchester Regiment in the first World War Having trouble getting any records for these people tried ancestry, war forces and national archives. Both born in Oldham and died aged 30.
Any info appreciated
Julienne Schofield
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: MaxD on Thursday 18 May 17 10:28 BST (UK)
Three Alfred Whittakers served overseas with the Manchester Regiment and no fewer than 7 James Schofields.  Do you have any more details for each, date/year of birth, next of kin and did they die in service?

maxD
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: granbinnie on Thursday 18 May 17 11:08 BST (UK)
James Schofield was b in 1888 in Hollinwood to James and Elizabeth Hadder he served in India 1905-1906 battle of Mons.  James m Emma Wilcock. dau of Richard Wilcock. he died 6 days after discharge on 6.7.1918 aged 31
Fred Whittaker was born abt 1890 not sure which parents are his he m Lydia Taylor in 1907 in Oldham. He died aged 30 1921
Julienne
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: MaxD on Thursday 18 May 17 14:03 BST (UK)
Does 17 Carnarvon St Hollinwood in 1917 relate to your James Schofield?  (James Herbert Schofield in the record).

maxD
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: granbinnie on Friday 19 May 17 01:41 BST (UK)
Hi
All I know is James was b in Hollinwood dec qtr 1888. don't know actual address.
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: granbinnie on Friday 19 May 17 01:42 BST (UK)
His war nos were 9031 and 486926
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: mirl on Friday 19 May 17 03:13 BST (UK)
There is a Fred Whittaker #15452 born 1892 address 35 Brewerton Road Oldham at enlistment in 1915 but the next of kin is his father Edward.

I have trouble matching this person with the marriage in 1907 as he would have been only 15, and even a 1890 birth would be 17.

If it is him, he got a military medal on top of the ordinary three.
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: granbinnie on Friday 19 May 17 03:24 BST (UK)
In 1911 census it states
Fred aged 21 and a blacksmith m 3 and a half years he m Lydia Taylor in 1907 He died in 1921
Julienne
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: mirl on Friday 19 May 17 03:56 BST (UK)
Yes, I can see that now, so the fellow I identified earlier is not the right one.
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heywood on Friday 19 May 17 09:00 BST (UK)
James Schofield was b in 1888 in Hollinwood to James and Elizabeth Hadder he served in India 1905-1906 battle of Mons.  James m Emma Wilcock. dau of Richard Wilcock. he died 6 days after discharge on 6.7.1918 aged 31

Julienne

Hi Julienne,
I have a query re your information about James. In all the census, marriage and birth information, i can't see Hollinwood being a factor. In his baptism record and following records, he is at the other side of town.
This might affect searches for his service record if Hollinwood is used as his birthplace.
You might have his birth certificate and he may well have been born there of course but I just wanted to confirm the information.

Thanks
Heywood
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: MaxD on Friday 19 May 17 09:43 BST (UK)
Knowing his (Schofield's) numbers makes all the difference!  As you have Ancestry, here's the link to his pension record which confirms his service from 1903 to 1918.  Parents as you posted.
 Discharged 29 Aug 1918.  His medal card is also easily found.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1114/MIUK1914A_086721-00987?pid=620830&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26db%3DBritishArmy%26h%3D620830%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DVeQ498%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26rhSource%3D1262&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=VeQ498&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

maxD

PS Not the one I queried earlier.
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heywood on Friday 19 May 17 10:20 BST (UK)
That's great maxD.
It was just the Hollinwood reference which seemed odd.
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: MaxD on Friday 19 May 17 14:00 BST (UK)
In my case, I earlier queried the James H Schofield because although his papers mentioned Hollinwood, the service history didn't add up.  The one with the service numbers quoted doesn't mention Hollinwood at all!

Julienne - As to the Whittaker man.  Sorry but I can't find a service record (Fred or Alfred) that can be attributed to the man you describe.

maxD
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heywood on Friday 19 May 17 18:10 BST (UK)
In my case, I earlier queried the James H Schofield because although his papers mentioned Hollinwood, the service history didn't add up.  The one with the service numbers quoted doesn't mention Hollinwood at all!
maxD

I was wondering about Hollinwood as all other records have no mention of it either - it is the other side of town and I don't want you to have the wrong birth details, Julienne.
(Unless of course he was born there and then moved  :))
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heatherjulie on Sunday 21 May 17 08:35 BST (UK)
Fred Whittaker's father was Joe Greenhalgh Whittaker
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heywood on Sunday 21 May 17 08:58 BST (UK)
Here is the other thread with the latest information

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=771821.
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 21 May 17 10:55 BST (UK)
Regrettably it still doesn't turn up a service record identifiable to this Fred Whittaker!

maxD

Presumably the original poster is content with Schofield's record?
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heatherjulie on Sunday 21 May 17 13:47 BST (UK)
On
http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/manchester-regiment-service-battalion.html

it says that numbers
8000-9400s
Issued between August 1914 and February 1915 to men joining the 17th Manchester (2nd City) Battalion.
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heywood on Sunday 21 May 17 13:59 BST (UK)
I don't understand about the various battalions, but I have checked my book on the Oldham Pals, 24th Battalion The Manchester Regiment and although there is a Cpl Fred Whittaker it isn't this one.
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heatherjulie on Sunday 21 May 17 14:32 BST (UK)
Julienne, where did you get the 2 numbers from?
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 21 May 17 14:38 BST (UK)
And may I add, which man was supposed to have a number between these two?  The only service number I have seen in these two ever more confusing threads is 9031 which belonged to James Schofield whose record i have cited.

maxD
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heywood on Sunday 21 May 17 15:37 BST (UK)
His war nos were 9031 and 486926

Max,

On the record you found, James Schofield is 486926 - Manchester Regiment. That number is written over a scribbled one which could be 9031 - difficult to see. Would that have been his number when he was in the 3rd BT R... Regiment which he joined earlier?

Heywood
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 21 May 17 15:43 BST (UK)
While the selection of a quote about service numbers and the 17th Battalion is correct as far as it goes, it should be understood that until 1920 service numbers were not unique and could be and were duplicated in different battalions, see this passage from the same source http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/duplicate-numbers.html so a service number on its own does not specifically identify a man's battalion. 
By way of illustration, a quick totally random search of Manchester Regiment medal cards at the National Archives throws up three men with the number 8050 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=manchester%20regiment&_ep=medal%20card&_or1=8050&_dss=range&_ro=any&_p=1900&_st=adv

maxD
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 21 May 17 16:33 BST (UK)
Heywood - not quite.  When he joined the regular army in 1903, he was already serving in the 3rd Battalion Royal Lancashire Regiment (it looks like) which, like all 3rd Battalions of the time, was a militia battalion ie part time  The 9031 number was allocated as a Manchester Regiment number, his medal card is much more readable.  See http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=manchester%20regiment&_ep=medal%20card&_or1=8050&_dss=range&_ro=any&_p=1900&_st=adv  paragraph headed "In times of need" his number fits exactly in between Jan 03 and May 04 - he joined in Aug 03.

Thus he was 9031 from joining up in 1903 (another illustration here of duplication!!) and was given the other longer number when he transferred in 1918 to the Labour Corps.

maxD
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heywood on Sunday 21 May 17 16:55 BST (UK)
From my lay perspective, I thought that's what I meant, Max  :) although I understand now that they are two Manchester Regiment numbers and not the previous Battalion.

However, thankfully you have solved one of Julienne's queries. Perhaps the army record for Fred will never turn up! Heather has found his parents so quite a good result.
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 21 May 17 17:33 BST (UK)
I wonder if Julienne noticed when she (presumably) visited the site earlier today?

I would go further and say (again) that there is no surviving service record that can be identified as belonging to a Fred Whittaker with a father called Joe Greenhalgh Whittaker.  As 70% of Great War records were destroyed by bombing in the second war, it is unsurprising.

maxD
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heatherjulie on Sunday 21 May 17 17:47 BST (UK)
For my own interest, if somebody died a few months after being discharged on health grounds, should they have a CW Grave?
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 21 May 17 18:50 BST (UK)
This http://www.infromthecold.org/war_grave_criteria.asp covers it better than I could.

maxD
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: mmm45 on Sunday 21 May 17 19:16 BST (UK)
Heatherjulie you need to get a death certificate see if cause of death was attributed to war service.

I've had a few men added to CWGC but it's a long process and you need official records to be successful.

Ady
Title: Re: Whittaker Fred and Schofield James
Post by: heatherjulie on Sunday 21 May 17 20:01 BST (UK)
Thank you.