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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Norfolk => England => Norfolk Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Elan on Thursday 18 May 17 09:11 BST (UK)
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Looking for the above not to mixed up with the same of Sutton in Lincolnshire as she died a few months after birth in 1812.
My Caroline had a daughter Agnes Adelaide Astley Windett - Base Born Baptised in Yarmouth and again in Earsdon North Shields
Caroline 1841 is married to a Daniel Brown ( officer hms customs) based in London with a son Frederick.
In the 1841 census her daughter seems to be with a Harriet Windett ( Gr aunt or aunt??) in Norfolk.
Agnes A A married in Australia I have got her from there on but not before.
Cannot find positive parental links for Caroline.
Much help required PLEASE!!! :) :) :)
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Hi Elan,
Some questions:
When about was Caroline born and where? (From the 1841 Census?)
When was daughter Agnes A A born?
What is the Abode on her baptism?
What about her 2nd baptism - when and abode?
What did both baptisms say about her mother Caroline, besides her name?
When and where did Caroline marry Daniel Brown?
When did Agnes A A go to Australia?
Did she go alone or with family?
Then, I see:
Agnes baptised in Yarmouth 1831.
Agnes married in NSW Australia 1854, to Archibald Mclellan.
And the Census you refer to:
1841: Kent Place, Heigham, Norfolk
HO107- Piece: 787/ Book 5 / Folio: 20 Pg32
Harriet WINDETT 40, Ind - b Norfolk
Adelaide WINDETT 10, b Norfolk
(Noting, that due to 1841 Census rounding for adults, Harriet could be as old as about 45 here, if the rounding was properly applied).
How do you know this 1841 Adelaide is your Agnes?
And how do you know the Caroline Windett who married Daniel Brown is your Agnes' mother
;) Sorry for so many questions.....but it does help set the scene for a search!
There is for example:
Harriet WINDETT b 1795 Stoke Holy Cross, Norfolk
Parents James WINDETT & Elizabeth MANN
A fairly well-off Family, Farmers of some means I would say.
Here is this Harriet in 1851 with her mother, and her brother James jnr & his family:
1851: Mulbarton, Norfolk
HO107/ Piece 1818/ Folio 145/ Pg22
Head: Elizabeth WINDETT 83, widow, Annuitant, b Stoke Holy Cross
Dau: Harriet WINDETT 56, unm, b Stoke Holy Cross
Son: Ja's WINDETT 54, marr. Annuitant, b Stoke Holy Cross
Dau Law: Naomi E WINDETT 32, b Northwold
Gr-Dau: Harriette E WINDETT 12, Northwold
And the death of Harriet's mother:
1853: Death of Elizabeth WINDETT
"Great Yarmouth the 24th ult., at Mulbarton, aged 85, Elizabeth, relict of the late Mr. James Windett, of Northwold Hall, in this county, and eldest daughter of the late E. S. Mann, Esq., of Stoke Holy Cross"
I think the following summary of finds is right:
* Northwold Harriet above, had a brother named James WINDETT b Stoke 1797, Holy Cross.
* James married a woman named Rebecca WINDETT in 1825 (possibly a cousin)
* And they had a daughter baptised 1830 at Northwold named Adelon Clarissa Elizabeth Windett.
* Then Rebecca died 1832, at Northwold, aged 36.
* In 1832, James married again to Naomi Elizabeth BARMAN.
* In 1841 James and Naomi are in Northwold, with a child named Harriet aged 3 - but his daughter Adelon, is not there with them.
* Adelon - as Adelia Clarissa Elizabeth Windett, married in 1850, to William Gustavus Crook
* And in 1851, as shown above, James & Naomi are with Harriet in Mulbarton
* Naomi died in 1863
* In 1871, spinster Harriet age 76 - is with her brother James a widower ages 74, a Farmer, in West Wymer.
Long Story short:
I think 1841 Harriet WINDETT in Heigham could be the same woman as in 1851 Mulbarton, spinster daughter of James Snr & Elizabeth ( a bit more research may confirm for sure).
And if so, it seems to me more likely that the Adelaide WINDETT in 1841 with Harriet, is actually Adelon Clarissa Elizabeth, daughter of James and Rebecca?
Cheers
AMBLY
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There must be an error somewhere with those 1831 baptisms. How could a child be baptised in Great Yarmouth and North Shields on the same day?
The image of the "Great Yarmouth" register page records that Caroline was of "E Braddenham, Norfolk". Now why would a Great Yarmouth register be annotated to record that someone lived in Norfolk? None of the other baptisms have an abode recorded.
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Windett family burials at East Bradenham: http://www.gravestonephotos.com/search/findfamily.php?name=Windett&scrwidth=800
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Colby Windett of East, and later West, Bradenham insolvency in 1831
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/18778/page/359/data.pdf
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BROWN, WILLIAM Mothers mn WINDETT ***
GRO Reference: 1839 M Quarter in CITY OF LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 144 30
For those trying to help;
1841 Census
Daniel Brown 30
Caroline Brown 25
Frederick Brown 5
Only Fred born in County.
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And another child:
Charles BROWN born 15 Feb 1844
Baptised 14 April 1844, St George the Martyr, Queens Sq, Middlesex
Abode: 33 Devonshire Street
Parents: Caroline and Daniel BROWN, Officer in the Customs
(GRO Registered : Holborn, mms Windett
Cheers
AMBLY
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Daniel Brown (bachelor) and Caroline Windett (spinster), both of the parish, were married at St George Hanover Square on 20 January 1835.
By licence (issued 19 Jan 1835). Witnesses: Robert Cole, Elizabeth Cole.
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Well done saved me working through this archive stream;
Clerk, M.A., B., A Agnes Astley, S., a minor, of Ail Souls, Marylebone, co. ...... 20 Damel Brown, B., & Caroline Windett, S. Licence Jan.
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Name: Agnes Astley
Birth Year: abt 1831
Age: 18
Gender: Female
Arrival Date: 14 Aug 1849
Vessel Name: Duke of Roxburgh
Origin Location: North Newton, Wiltshire, England
Parents JACOB/CAROLINE, Mother living in London
Confectioners Shopwoman, born Yarmouth, Norfolk
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Well done saved me working through this archive stream;
Clerk, M.A., B., A Agnes Astley, S., a minor, of Ail Souls, Marylebone, co.
This is an 1825 marriage at St George Hanover Square between John Henry Spark, clerk, Master of Arts and Agnes Astley, spinster, a minor, by the consent of Dame Hester Astley, widow, [& mother of Agnes].
So not "our" A.A.A. Windett.
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Name: Agnes Astley
Birth Year: abt 1831
Age: 18
Gender: Female
Arrival Date: 14 Aug 1849
Vessel Name: Duke of Roxburgh
Origin Location: North Newton, Wiltshire, England
Parents JACOB/CAROLINE, Mother living in London
Confectioners Shopwoman, born Yarmouth, Norfolk
Great find :)
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Great find, Trish ;D
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Thank you both.
Hi avm228,
When I posted the archive stream I meant this bit of it:
Damel Brown, B., & Caroline Windett, S. Licence Jan.
Jacob Astley 1797, Son of Hester may be the be the culprit?
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I agree complete with Ambly - in brief, that the 'Adelaide' with Harriet Windett in 1841 is her niece Adelon/Adelia Clarissa Elizabeth Windett baptised 1830 to James (Harriet's brother) and Rebecca (who died 1832).
So, whilst the mother of Agnes Adelaide Astley Windett was Caroline (who married to Daniel Brown 20/1/1835 St. Geo. Han.Sq. London) where was this Agnes in 1841?
Daniel and Caroline seem to have had at least 2 more children after 1841 - George bp.24/4/1842 and Charles bp.14/4/1844 but what happened next? I can't seem to find any of them after 1844 on census so did they go to Australia too?
My instinct at the moment is that, with a link to East Bradenham on her daughters baptism, that Caroline Windett was in fact the 'Charlotte' Windett b.12/2/1811, bp.3/3/1811 East Bradenham dau. of Colby Windett and Mary Rix - there are no further records for a Charlotte Windett in marriages or burials so did 'Charlotte' become Caroline (perhaps the vicar made a mistake, who knows). This Windett family are the only ones in East Bradenham at the relevant timeframe.
Annette
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Daniel Brown appears on the 1881 census in Woodford (West Ham) with a wife Mary and daughter Rosa M aged 22. Aged 74, born Hatfield, Hertfordshire, retired Customs Officer. Mary was from Pilsley in Derbyshire, Rosa born Hackney ( per GRO she was Rosa Morton Brown).
Daniel Brown, widower, married Mary Morton at St George Hanover Square in 1856.
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In 1861 the "Browne" family - Daniel (49 b London), Mary (37 b Edensor Derbyshire) and Rosey Morton Browne (3 b Hackney) - are in Tewin, Hertfordshire.
RG 9/823/21/22
Added: I think Daniel's occupation status is Late Landing Waiter & Tide Surveyor (Compensation).
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One of Rosa's executors in 1903 was the Reverend Frederick Brown (the other being Mrs Anna Whiting Ramsey, wife of Robert William Ramsey).
Added: Anna Whiting Ramsey was Frederick Brown's daughter.
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OH MY GIDDY AUNT!!! You are all AMAZING! ;D ;D ;D
Thank you so so much for all your finds I will plug away at this again in the weekend, what a shame I have to work today I could sit here for the whole day :'(
I really appreciate all of your help.
:) :) :)
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I would suggest that the likely father of Agnes is Sir Jacob Astley, Bart. Owned estates in Norfolk and Earsdon, Northumberland (the locations of the two baptisms) .
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Thankyou Shaun J that makes abit of sense as the family story tale is that a Lord Astley was the father of Agnes
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Well done everyone.
As I said earlier, Jacob Astley 1797, Son of Hester may be the be the culprit?
I tried to find him earlier in 1841 Census with little luck, hoping Agnes may be in the Household!
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Sir Jacob Astley was created Lord Hastings around the time of the 1841 census.
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Lord Hastings is in Cavendish Square, London in the 1841 census, with Lady Astley and 11 servants. No sign of Agnes there.
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Agnes Agnes where are you?
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Just to throw the cat among the pigeons further, the other family story is that Caroline was locked in a hunting lodge when found pregnant and a Baron Windett whom haled from Germany b abt 1770 recused her. NOW - remember this is a tale I have poohed poohed. However did the same for a Lord Astley. ??? ??? ???
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What an interesting thread!
If you google Jacob Astley Baron Hastings among the hits is a Blogspot on Landed Families of Britain and Ireland.It includes biographies of all the Astleys. Sir Jacob (1797 - 1859) is described thus:
" He was evidently of a hasty temper and willing to defend his honour with violence: as late as the 1850's he threatened to horsewhip the editor of a local paper". He married in 1819 but was separated in about 1826 after his wife eloped with a Capt Garth - it states he attempted to sue Capt Garth but was only awarded 1 shilling after evidence emerged at the trial re his own activities.
I have had a look at the Bishop of Durham's Transcripts for Earsdon Parish and can see no baptism recorded there for Agnes. Wonder what the source is of the record on family search?
William
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Wow, everyone - great sleuthing ;D And fascinating....
So, whilst the mother of Agnes Adelaide Astley Windett was Caroline (who married to Daniel Brown 20/1/1835 St. Geo. Han.Sq. London) where was this Agnes in 1841?
Is it certain though, that this Caroline is Agnes' mother? (Or did I miss something)
Thankyou Shaun J that makes a bit of sense as the family story tale is that a Lord Astley was the father of Agnes
Ahh, ;D that just goes to show......every little possible clue, no matter how unlikely it seems!
Cheers
AMBLY
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Ambly, the Great Yarmouth parish register has this baptism:
5 March 1831
Agnes Adelaide Astley B.B. [base born] of Caroline Windett (E. Braddenham, Norfolk).
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Well done ShaunJ, I had looked for Lord Hastings in 1841 but didnt find him.
I think as she names her Father as Jacob Astley in Shipping Record it is fairly conclusive.
I wonder why she left from Wiltshire.
Did the Astleys or Windetts have connections there?
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Answered my own question re Jacob 1797;
He succeeded to the title of 6th Baronet Astley, of Hill Morton, co. Warwick on 28 April 1817
(Source The Peerage)
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I wonder why she left from Wiltshire.
She didn't. The passenger list says that her place of origin was Yarmouth.
The "North Newton Wiltshire" bit is a transcription error and belongs to an Edith Spratt further up the page.
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Agnes was one of the 10 unmarried females mentioned in this newspaper article http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230394240
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Thanks for that ShaunJ, I missed it ::)