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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Brewins girl on Friday 26 May 17 17:46 BST (UK)

Title: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Friday 26 May 17 17:46 BST (UK)
Can anyone explain what 'Tarver' squad is or who Tarver is? My guess is that Tarver is the surname of the officer in the midst of soldiers in a very formal group photograph
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Friday 26 May 17 18:34 BST (UK)
It was (and is) common practice for small units such as training squads to carry the name of an eminent person in their regiment or corps.  In this case, it is highly likely that this squad was named after Major General W K Tarver CB CMG who had a distinguished career in the Great War, who was Inspector of the RASC in 1929 and who later was appointed Representative Colonel Commandant of the Corps.

maxD

PS - it would be interesting to see the photo, great men often appeared on formal occasions.
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Sunday 28 May 17 14:34 BST (UK)
Did you get the photos MaxD?

There must be other copies of this photo - I wonder if anyone recognises any of the soldiers pictured?
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 28 May 17 15:23 BST (UK)
No photos seen!

maxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Sunday 28 May 17 16:43 BST (UK)


Sorry about that. let's try again. Third time lucky? (just discovered my file was too big
Note the nickname for the Officer with the swagger stick (who you suggest is probably Major General W K Tarver)
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 28 May 17 18:44 BST (UK)
Whoa - I didn't suggest the officer was Maj Gen Tarver, it was that the squad was named after him!

Tweedledee is most certainly not the distinguished former General.  He is an RASC officer (the type of cap badge gives it away), probably a Captain, can't really see his pips.

This is an absolutely typical photograph of a squad after initial training.  The squad members, brand new ill fitting uniforms, highly bulled boots, fixed grins.  Squad officer in the middle (there was probably another squad trained by Tweedledum) with his squad corporal and lance corporal either side.  Note the bayonets that can be seen on the right hand side as we look at it.  Probably just come off the pass out parade at the end of training.

When these men went off to their next unit, another Tarver Squad would be born with the next lot of new recruits.  In the unit there would have been, more than likely, another squad or others carrying the name of another eminent retired RASC officer.  Bit like houses at school.

Fascinating!

maxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Monday 29 May 17 16:04 BST (UK)
'Fascinating' as you say MaxD. Thank you for your invaluable help. It just goes to show how careful we (I) must be as a civilian not to misunderstand. I learned from the REME historian for example, that whilst my uncle was a Radio Mechanic, the word 'Radio' really meant 'Radar' - quite a different thing I guess.

Can you clarify what is meant by the letter "C" in this:- "..he was remastered to Clerk Group "C" ..."
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Monday 29 May 17 16:38 BST (UK)
Army jargon!!  It is actually re mustered which means he changed trades from whatever he was to become a clerk.   There were four groups of trades grouped (!_) by pay level, group C was the third of these, this isn't really significant.

Not sure what your historian was referring to, there were both Radio Mechanics and Radar Mechanics, each proficient at repairing the different types of equipment, the latter felt they were superior to the former..  Presumably this is not the RASC man?

maxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Monday 29 May 17 18:47 BST (UK)
Just to confuse matters, he (Ron, my uncle) enlisted in RAPC, transferred to RASC, then RAOC, &  finally REME!

He trained to be a Radio Mechanic when he was in RAOC (I think ! )
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Monday 29 May 17 19:12 BST (UK)
Should get a medal for being b****ed about!  Likely to have been the REME.  Have you got his record - happy to have a look to translate it if you wish.

maxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Tuesday 30 May 17 11:43 BST (UK)
Thank you for your offer to look at his Service Record. I think the REME historian did a pretty good job of interpreting that for me - my uncertainty about whether he was in RAOC when I post my earlier comment was because I was away from my desk so I was relying on memory!

As I understood it, in the early days (not sure about later) of enlistment, little regard was played to assessing the individual's strengths and experiences set against the needs of the military, so he joined the RAPC.  As he had some clerical experience (he enlisted as an Invoice Clerk) this seemed a suitable Corps, and he was quite small (32" chest) so possibly deemed unfit for combat. He was upgraded from Class III qualification to Class II. I'm not sure why he transferred to RASC. He was then hospitalised at Botleys Park War Hospital for about 6 months (don't know why) He was then selected for training as a Radio (Radar????) mechanic (still in RASC) then 'compulsorily transferred to RAOC after he'd finished that training. He was later removed from the Radio Mechanics trade group, retrained & remustered as Clerk Technical. [do you know what that means?] When REME was formed he was transferred to it, and stayed with REME until demob.
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Tuesday 30 May 17 16:46 BST (UK)
A clerk who has had additional training to document technical matters as opposed to, for example, a clerk (supply) who is versed in matters to do with supply. 

My doubting Thomas act earlier missed the time element.  Radar mechanices were indeed RAOC personnel until the specialism was transferred along with the men and some other trades, to the REME in phases starting in 1942.  Uncle was in there somewhere!

maxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Tuesday 30 May 17 17:17 BST (UK)
Thanks for clarifying the difference in Clerking (is that a verb??!!). My uncle transferred to REME w.e.f 1/10/42, so at the time REME was formed
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Tuesday 30 May 17 17:25 BST (UK)
This is quite good on the beginnings of REME for interest http://www.mkbartlett.co.uk/data/rac/reme/0203MK01LC.pdf

maxD

Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Tuesday 30 May 17 17:37 BST (UK)
interesting background to REME, thank you. 'Royal' from the start!!
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: kelmcfrln on Wednesday 06 December 17 16:17 GMT (UK)
intrigued by the pictures that feature in this thread. We've just started going through a suitcase of family photos and have found a picture stating "Tarver 2 Squad RASC Feb 11th 1941"

Interesting read
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Wednesday 06 December 17 19:52 GMT (UK)
I'd love to see that photo kelmcfrln - is that possible? Be warned, delving into suitcases of old photographs cen become addictive!
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 06 December 17 20:07 GMT (UK)
Agreed but it would be interesting to see if any of the instructor types are in photo 2.

MaxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: kelmcfrln on Wednesday 06 December 17 22:40 GMT (UK)
Yes, I'll get it uploaded there's no names on the back so any help identifying individuals would be great. Also if you have any other info on this squad/unit, it would be very much appreciated. From other documents we've found we know that two family members served in the forces but not sure if one or both were part of 'Tarver 2'. Now going through other records to try and piece more together on a Sergeant Ellis Newsome and a Robert Gascoigne. Neither name is included in the photo already on this thread so still trying to work out how it all fits together......
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Thursday 07 December 17 09:38 GMT (UK)
 2 Tarver Squad may either be the second of the year in 1941 or the numbers may have required two squads training together.  Whatever, that element is not of any importance, the first photo is of men in training with the RASC, I shall be most surprised if the other is something different entirely!

As Brewins girl's posts above show, starting in the RASC is no guarantee of ending up there unfortunately.  Only sure way is to apply for the service records of those of interest.

MaxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Sunday 10 December 17 18:23 GMT (UK)
AS you say MaxD, it is a good thing to apply for the service records. I have done that with my Uncle (the subject of this thread) and also with my father who was in the the RAF, and in both cases have had these interpreted as the jargon and abbreviations make reading a record difficult. I do recall you offering to interpret my uncle's service record so would advise kelmcfrin to pursue this.
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 10 December 17 18:51 GMT (UK)
Brewins girl - Just back tracking a bit, we didn't establish exactly what RASC training unit Tarver Squad was part of.  From the date of the photo, we should be able to establish that from your uncle's records.  Could you have a look?

MaxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Sunday 10 December 17 19:55 GMT (UK)
I'll have a look tomorrow
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Saturday 06 January 18 16:00 GMT (UK)
MaxD - I'm sorry I've taken so long to respond to you request for more info about the RASC/Tarver Squad (10 Dec I said i'd "look tomorrow" - but 'tomorrow' never comes!)

So, from Ron's Service Record:-

 Date: 31.10.40
Unit: Det. RAPC Exeter.
Record of casualties etc Comp[ulosrily transferred to Royal Army Service Corps on Posted to No 12 Training Battalion (Supply) Aldershot
Place of casualty: Exeter

Date: 29.11.40
Unit: H Hldng STW
Record of casualties etc: TOS from Ten Cy No 12 Trng Bn (Supply) Aldershot.

I hope this helps
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Saturday 06 January 18 16:01 GMT (UK)
kelmcfrin - have you been able to scan the photograph of Tarver Squad ?
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Saturday 06 January 18 17:20 GMT (UK)
Those two casualties (means occurrences in army speak) record his compulsory transfer from the Pay Corps to the RASC and then to 12 Training Battalion (Supply) Aldershot.  There he is first in H Holding Company (waiting for enough men to form a training squad) in the Specialist Training Wing.

It is possible that this unlocks the mystery of Tarver Squad which I would wager was, as said, what the training squads were called in that part of the 12 Training Battalion and the next step after the holding company.  I wouldn't expect to see a casualty entry for it as he is still in the same unit.  The date (and the date of the casualty is when the record was made not when it happened) links with date on the photo.

Wild guess is that the next significant casualty is his move from 12 Trg Bn to a service unit??

Hope was that we would find the instructors at least on the later Tarver squad pic.

MaxD

Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Saturday 06 January 18 17:28 GMT (UK)
The next casualty (yes, I had worked out that the word was 'army speak' for 'occurrences', but it did puzzle me for a while) was dated 4.1.41 Posted to HQ Holding Coy Military Trng Wing No 12 Trng Bn (Supply) RASC; 4.1.41 TOS from Specialists Wing; Granted Embarkation leave 4-11/1/41 but he was then admitted to Botleys Park War Hospital 23.1.41 so didn't embark, then posted to 'Y' list 13.2.41
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Saturday 06 January 18 18:57 GMT (UK)
That says to me that he completed his training with the Specialist Wing which he started in Nov 40 and in Jan 41 goes back to be "parked" in the Holding Company and sent on embarkation leave, so still in 12 Trg Bn in Aldershot.  He doesn't move anywhere, it is just him being put "on the books" of different elements of 12 Trg Bn.  Then hospital gets in the way and he is Y listed.

MaxD



 
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Saturday 06 January 18 19:07 GMT (UK)
I'd love to know why he was admitted to the Botleys Park hospital - looks like he was there for a while.
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Saturday 06 January 18 22:25 GMT (UK)
MOD doesn't release medical histories for that period unfortunately.

MaxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Brewins girl on Saturday 06 January 18 22:34 GMT (UK)
Life would be boring if we knew the answers to all our questions!
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 07 January 18 10:14 GMT (UK)
Life would be boring if we knew the answers to all our questions!

To say nothing of the disastrous effect on Rootschat!

MaxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 17 January 18 10:27 GMT (UK)
kelmcfrin

Any chance of you uploading the photograph you mentioned on 6 December??

MaxD
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Steve12 on Saturday 07 January 23 01:53 GMT (UK)
I have just found a Photo of my grandfather, Theres no names on it but at the bottom of the photo it says Tarver Squad 2 COY RASC June 25th 1940.
And on the back of the photo is written
Aldershot Barracks (In Training)
1940 Before going overseas. calling at Cape Town on the way to the Middlwe East.
Title: Re: Tarver Squad RASC Nov 1940
Post by: Andy J2022 on Saturday 07 January 23 13:24 GMT (UK)
Hi Steve and welcome to Rootschat.
I would guess that the Tarver Squad your grandfather was in was two ahead of the squad that contained the OP's uncle. Basic training lasted about 12 weeks and we have seen no evidence that the Tarver squads overlapped.