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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: marsbar60 on Sunday 28 May 17 04:49 BST (UK)
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Hi I have traced my family history back to 1856(or 1857) when they arrived in Wellington. The only family members that I have confirmed together in the same generation at that time were Thomas Meagher born 1839 in Tipperary and his brother Michael born 1842. I have confirmed them through their probates etc. as being brothers. An article from The Cyclopedia of New Zealand about Michael who was the station master at Upper Hutt around 1880 states that the Meagher family arrived in Wellington on the Mail Schooner Marchioness in 1856 (link http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc01Cycl-t1-body-d4-d70-d2.html). I would like to search the Marchioness passengers lists to identify the whole family including Thomas and Michaels parents who I have so far failed to find, but I can't find any lists for the Marchioness(if the ship name is correct). Any ideas would be very much appreciated.
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Hi Marsbar60,
Is the surname spelled MEAGHER or MAHER (as per the Cyclopedia of New Zealand biographical entry linked to above)?
The Marchioness arrived at Wellington on 30 May 1856 from Melbourne (see Wellington Independent, 3 June 1857, Page 2). The passanger list does not include either of those names.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01k63/
I can't find a listing for either the Marchioness or passengers with those names on the Petone Settlers Database. Note that this database suffers from poor original quality data-entry so results (or lack of) should not be considered accurate without independent research.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hqw/
Spades
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Thank you for having a look for me, I have also been trying to find passenger lists in Papers Past. In an affadavit in my great great grandfathers probate (Thomas Meagher) my great grandfather thought that the family arrived "around 1857" so it is possible that in the article on Michael in Cyclopedia the dates may not be accurate, although they got his place of birth correct as Clonmel County Tipperary and he was born in 1842 (from his own probate). In case you were wondering Michael also supplied an affadavit in Thomas's probate and spelt his name "Maher". A few members of the family switched from the Meagher to the Maher spelling at that time, so I have been careful to verify each family member.
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Hi again,
This .pdf file, The Meagher Family, provides some background the surname MEAGHER/MAHER. I can't see any obvious connection to your line.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01k64/
Can you provide the names of Thomas and Michael's parents, and any dates of birth marriage or death for any of them?
Finding the vessel they arrived on might be easier if we can search for the parents.
Spades
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Thank you for the PDF, it is quite interesting. I really don't know why some of the family changed the spelling from Meagher to Maher in NZ perhaps it is just easier to spell. Michael and Thomas were quite close, Thomas gave Michael power of Attorney over his large property in Takapu Porirua while he was overseas in Argentina. Michael spelt his name Maher in an affadavit in his brother's probate, Thomas always used the spelling Meagher. I don't know Thomas and Michael's parents names that was why I was trying to find Michael and Thomas in passenger lists. I am guessing that their parents would have spelt their name Meagher which I think was more traditional.
So far I haven't found a record which identifies their parents when they lived in Wellington, I have done a NZ probate search, and electoral roll search with no luck so far, but only looking for Meagher
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Thanks, I've just re-read your first post and realised that you did say you didn't know their parents' names. :-[ ::)
Thomas and Michael's death certificates should give their names, however, but that can remain a last resort. ;)
Spades
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Thank you for having a look for me, I have also been trying to find passenger lists in Papers Past. In an affadavit in my great great grandfathers probate (Thomas Meagher) my great grandfather thought that the family arrived "around 1857" so it is possible that in the article on Michael in Cyclopedia the dates may not be accurate, although they got his place of birth correct as Clonmel County Tipperary and he was born in 1842 (from his own probate). In case you were wondering Michael also supplied an affadavit in Thomas's probate and spelt his name "Maher". A few members of the family switched from the Meagher to the Maher spelling at that time, so I have been careful to verify each family member.
Hello.
With regard to the Cyclopedia Editions, they were made possible by pre sale to prominent people and institutions, so while some of the content was editorially generated, most of the write up's including bio material and photographs, was supplied by the subscriber to that edition.
Therefore if the copy was supplied to the publisher, in written form, the content thereof represented the information the subscriber wished to make public. In most instances they would represent the true facts, as they understood them, of their heritage. No doubt there would have been other self made men, who choose to be economical with the truth.
- Alan.
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What years did the brothers die? I'm assuming you've looked for death notices or obituaries on paperspast?
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There is a MAHER family of ten travelling Melbourne to Wellington on the Marchioness in 1858 on the outwards passenger lists here:
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration
Parents are Patrick and Mary, children include a Thomas and Michael
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Snap! ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=772304.0
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^ ;D
and the Marchioness had a 'Royal Mail Contract' in 1858 which I can't see in 1856
1858 'Advertising', The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957), 12 February, p. 1. , viewed 28 May 2017, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article7146495
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There is a MAHER family of ten travelling Melbourne to Wellington on the Marchioness in 1858 on the outwards passenger lists here:
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration
Parents are Patrick and Mary, children include a Thomas and Michael
Thank you for finding that, I have confirmed Michael's age at death(died 3rd Aug 1921, in Wellington) and his birth date through his probate. He was born in 1842, the Michael Maher in that passenger list was 11 (born in 1847).
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There is a MAHER family of ten travelling Melbourne to Wellington on the Marchioness in 1858 on the outwards passenger lists here:
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration
Parents are Patrick and Mary, children include a Thomas and Michael
Hello marsbar60
Just in case you have difficulty accessing the above passenger list (> PRO VIC have recently "upgraded" their website and I now have great difficulty finding my way to their lists ::) ... here is a list of the passengers named MAHER on the vessel "Marchioness" which arrived at Wellington from Melbourne, in March 1858. [Source: ancestry.com]
MAHER
- Patrick - 42 years
- Mary - 43
- Richard - 22
- Mary - 20
- Thomas - 16 (bc 1842)
- Michael - 11
- Catherine - 10
- James - 9
- John - 7
- Judith - 6
---
~ Lu
see following post >>
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Michael's death notice here:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/MT19210809.2.26?query=Michael%20Maher
doesn't match his probate age, I will do some more study.
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... marsbar60 ... my previous posting was simultaneous with yours - so I see now you have been able to access the "Marchioness" passenger list.
:)I would though urge caution with discounting the Michael MAHER on that passenger list.
Bear in mind that "age given at death" is not always totally reliable (in that a third party is supplying that information). ;)
I have located the MAHER family arrival in Melbourne (from England) ... see following >
~ Lu
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... again ... our posts crossed. ;D
The following is the same MAHER family who came to Wellington in 1958.
Judging by the dates, their stay in Melbourne, was very brief.
Ship: "OCEANIA" - arrived Melbourne, Australia - 11 March 1858, from Liverpool, England :
MAHR (spelling as per passenger list - Source: ancestry.com )
Pat. MAHR - 42 - farmer
Mary - 43 - wife
Rich. - 22 - farmer *
Mary - 21 - wife
Thos. - 16 - (there is an apparent occupation - not able to decipher handwriting though ? )
Mich. - 11
Cath. - 10
James - 9 .... all these listed as "farmer's children"
John - 7
Judith - 6
----
Will look to see if there is further info for this family.
~ Lu
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... oops ... E R R O R ... in my previous post ::)
MAHER family who came to Wellington in 1958 ... should read 1 8 5 8
~ Lu
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The following is the same MAHER family who came to Wellington in 1858.
Judging by the dates, their stay in Melbourne, was very brief.
Ship: "OCEANIA" - arrived Melbourne, Australia - 11 March 1858, from Liverpool, England :
MAHR (spelling as per passenger list - Source: ancestry.com )
Pat. MAHR - 42 - farmer
Mary - 43 - wife
Rich. - 22 - farmer *
Mary - 21 - wife
Thos. - 16 - (there is an apparent occupation - not able to decipher handwriting though ? )
Mich. - 11
Cath. - 10
James - 9 .... all these listed as "farmer's children"
John - 7
Judith - 6
Had placed asterisk (*) alongside of Richard's name, mainly to draw attention to the fact that "Mary MAHR - aged 21" was listed as the "wife" of Richard (rather than being a child of Patrick and Mary MAHR).
~ Lu
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Hi marsbar60
At the time of adding the info for the MAHR [sic] family travelling per "Oceania" to Melbourne from Liverpool in 1858, I hadn't yet read the cyclopedia entry for Michael MAHER. ::)
I have now ;D ... and it says (of Michael) that he arrived firstly to Melbourne (by the "Oceania" ) with his parents ...
So it's the year of the family's travel that is in error in that cyclopedia article - stating 1856 rather than 1858.
~ Lu
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Hi again
Earlier you mentioned re: the cyclopedia entry for Michael MAHER, that it gave his place of birth as "Clonmel, Tipperary".
I'm sure you've already spotted in the probate file for Thomas MEAGHER, (in the affidavit of his son James MEAGHER), that Thomas was born at "Killanaule" [sic], Tipperary.
Actual spelling is "Killenaule" - it's situated about 16 miles from Clonmel.
Just mentioning this, as in tracing your Irish roots, it's enormously helpful to have the names of townlands and parishes in order to be sure you have the right family (of that particular surname).
[Mine are RYAN's of Tipperary so I know finding them isn't that easy. ;D ]
Have some more information to follow, for parents of the MAHER family. >
~ Lu
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Something else that is quite important is that my great grandfather James Maher who was an executor in his father Thomas's probate stated this in his affadavit:
"Thomas Meagher was born in Killenaule County Tipperary in Ireland of parents with British nationality in 1839"
I am still trying to see if I can verify Michael's age at death, which was in the paper(see previous post) which was stated as 87 years of age which meant he was born around 1834, so he would have been around 22 years old in 1856. But this could be another red herring.
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His NZ death registration at seems to back up the newspaper notice, stating that he died at 88 years of age. www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz Reg No. 1921/4316
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Something else that is quite important is that my great grandfather James Maher who was an executor in his father Thomas's probate stated this in his affadavit:
"Thomas Meagher was born in Killenaule County Tipperary in Ireland of parents with British nationality in 1839"
Hi .... did you mean the following extract from James MEAGHER ?? Item # 2. ??
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L92R-H55F?mode=g&i=339&cc=1865481
Sorry, I don't see where it has the year "1839" ???
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His NZ death registration at seems to back up the newspaper notice, stating that he died at 88 years of age. www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz Reg No. 1921/4316
It does seem to back up .... BUT ... it is no guarantee unfortunately, that the informant to the death of Michael MAHER, gave (or was even in possession of), the absolutely correct information.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is with death records ... (as explained before) ... they are not always a reliable source.
And so it is ... we must plod on and see if we can locate another resource which can be used as verification. ;D
~ Lu
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There is a MAHER family of ten travelling Melbourne to Wellington on the Marchioness in 1858 on the outwards passenger lists here:
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration
Parents are Patrick and Mary, children include a Thomas and Michael
Thank you for finding that, I have confirmed Michael's age at death(died 3rd Aug 1921, in Wellington) and his birth date through his probate. He was born in 1842, the Michael Maher in that passenger list was 11 (born in 1847).
Hello again ...
I'm just trying to be helpful with your search, so please don't look upon any comments I make here as being the opposite of that. ;)
Have read through, (but may have missed something ?), the Probate for Michael MAHER, and no where does if give "his birth date" on the file ??
Yes, the executors confirm "they had been advised" that "Michael MAHER was born in Clonmel, Co. Tipperary" (but, as is generally usual, the age of the deceased person, a.k.a. the testator. is not included in a Probate file unless it appears on an annexed death certificate.)
~ Lu
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Thank you Lucy I do appreciate your help, I am sure I found 1839(in words) somewhere in his probate, I should have referenced the page. Thomas has quite a lengthy probate, but very interesting. My great grandfather James made a trip to Buenos Aires according to what I heard from my grandmother. I think that must have been to settle Thomas's estate there. I believe James and Emily his wife I think went together to Argentina, I would like to find what ship they went on too, but I don't know the exact date they left NZ for Argentina. Thomas had a rather too public court separation from his wife Mary in 1898, so I am guessing he just wanted to get away overseas from what was probably very hard to live with for a very religious man. Newspaper article here:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTIM18981206.2.9?query=thomas%20meagher
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I found where I got Thomas's birth date of 1839 from, it is in his probate on the 25th page in Michael's affadavit
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Good ;) ... can you post a link please ?
~ Lu
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Page 25 :)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L92R-HRW7?mode=g&i=348&cc=1865481
-Chris
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Don't worry ... here's the link >
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L92R-HRW7?mode=g&i=348&cc=1865481
Sorry ... yes, I missed it (very long Probate and a good deal of information to be taken in. )
Of course, Michael MAHER is only estimating his brother's age (about 60 years) ... and 1839 isn't too far removed from 1842 (his approx. birth year on arrival in Melbourne and NZ.)
~ Lu
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... oops you beat me to it. :D
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So, despite the inconsistencies with "ages at death" - and perhaps "ages shown on passenger lists", ??- I hope you can see that the MAHR (MAHER) family arriving in Melbourne (per "Oceania") and coming on to Wellington a few weeks later in March 1858, are much more likely than any other persons, to be the Thomas (MEAGHER) and his brother Michael MAHER, you seek ? ;)
Am about to add further information for the MAHER parents :
~ Lu
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Patrick and Mary MAHER : [Arrived Wellington 1858 per "Marchioness" ]
Sadly, Patrick MAHER died a little short of two years after his arrival in NZ, on 30 November 1859.
He is buried at the Mount Street Roman Catholic Cemetery in Wellington with his wife, a son and another young male relative. I'll add the headstone transcription below :
Of interest, his age was given as 44 years (born circa 1815) on the h/stone and that is a good match with his approx. year of birth given on passenger lists. The record for his wife Mary is a little suspect though with regard to her year of birth.
Mount Street Roman Catholic Cemetery - Wellington
82. In Loving Memory of Patrick MAHER who departed this life on 30 November 1859 aged 44 years. ALSO his son John MAHER, died 18 February 1872 aged 23 years.
Mary MAHER wife of the above, who died on 4 October 1905 aged 98 years.
Noel COONEY died 12 December 1934 aged 19. R.I.P.
-----
Will comment further on Mary MAHER in a following post.
~ Lu
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Incidentally, the death registration at NZ BDM (online) for Patrick, shows as >>
1859 / 1565 - MEAGHER - Patrick - 44 years
Probably not worth purchasing the death record, as for that era, it contains only minimal information.
~ Lu
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Mary MAHER - died 1905 at Wellington :
Well happily, Mary MAHER left a Will (dated 1884) - which can be viewed at this link >
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9VX-1D35?mode=g&i=108&cc=1865481
And even more happily, it contains a copy of her death registration (registry image) so you wont need to spend $$ on purchasing that. :D
ALSO ... it confirms that she has a son named Michael MAHER, a clerk who resides in Wellington.
The 1905 death registration gives ages of her living issue as :
2 males = aged 67 years (bc 1838) [possibly Thomas ? ]
and = aged 60 (bc1845 ) [Michael ? ]
1 female = aged 55 years (bc 1850) [and this must be the daughter, Mrs BIDDLE* at whose home Mary MAHER died ?]
Notes for * Mrs BIDDLE and Mary MAHER - to follow.
~ Lu
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Mary MAHER and her daughter, Hannah* BIDDLE.
In the Will (dated 1884) of Mary MAHER, you'll note that her daughter is named as "Johanna BIDDLE, wife of Edward BIDDLE".
The marriage record for this couple shows as "Hannah MEAGHER and Edgar BIDDLE - year 1870" - and their children's births are registered with parents named as "Hannah and Edgar".
* Hannah : On the passenger lists given earlier, the youngest child of Mary and Patrick MAHER, is recorded as "Judith MAHR (or MAHER)" who has a birthdate circa 1852.
"Judith" is very possibly a mis-transcription of "Johanna" ?? [And "Johanna" of course seems to be largely known in later life as simply, "Hannah". ] Anyhow, the age at death for Hannah BIDDLE is 68 in 1920 - so born circa 1852 and matches birth year for "Judith MAHER" of whom I could find no further mention.
Mary MAHER - born c. 1807 - seven years the senior of her husband ?? Certainly not unusual and may be difficult to verify this. Mary's maiden name appears to have been DWYER.
~ Lu
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Hi marsbar60
Here is the Probate record for Hannah* BIDDLE ... which confirms her place of birth as
"Killnaul" [sic] Co. Tipperary.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89L3-Z9TX-W?mode=g&i=518&cc=1865481
Found above indexed as "Hanna BIDDLE" .. though she has signed her Will as "Hannah BIDDLE".
~ Lu
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The following link has burials for Mount Street Roman Catholic Cemetery in Wellington :
http://www.mountstreetcemetery.org.nz/dox/Copy%20of%20Burial%20list%20-%20updated%20to%20website%20130530.pdf
Indexed as MAHER / MEAGHER :
[Noticed there is a burial for a Richard MAHER who appears to be eldest son of Patick and Mary - further details to come - he apparently died at the home of his brother-in-law ? ]
Hannah BIDDLE (and an infant daughter also buried there.)
~ Lu
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Thank you for your help, have you looked at Michael's Probate here:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9LW-PYBS?i=222&cc=1865481
He has bequests for his 4 nieces:
Thomas's daughter: Sister Mary Vincent and two other nuns:
Sister Cortona of St Joseph's Convent , Manly Sydney
and
Sister Mary of the Sisters of Mercy in Colombo St in Christchurch
and
Annie Cooney
I need to connect them somehow to Michael's other siblings.
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Thank you for your help, have you looked at Michael's Probate here:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9LW-PYBS?i=222&cc=1865481
He has bequests for his 4 nieces:
Thomas's daughter: Sister Mary Vincent and two other nuns:
I need to connect them somehow to Michael's other siblings.
Yes I have viewed it, but, I don't always have time to have a very thorough look (hence earlier missing the apparent birth year for Thomas MEAGHER given by brother Michael in the Probate record. Expect that info I post, will be looked into further by the person/persons I am endeavouring to assist. ;) )
Thomas' daughter, Sister Mary Vincent, was mentioned as living in Perth, Western Australia, wasn't she ... in the Probate file of Thomas MEAGHER ??
I will check that though just to make sure I have the correct person.
~ Lu
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You need to re-read the Probate file for Thomas MEAGHER.
All the information is quite clearly set out I believe, stating the relationships within this family (and you've made mention of them yourself, earlier in this thread).
Start with the affidavit of James MEAGHER (son of Thomas) at Image no. 340 (- you can go back and forwards using the arrows top left of page to search for info.)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L92R-H55F?i=339&cc=1865481
Image no. 341 >... James speaks of his sibling Mary MEAGHER and confirms her religious name as Sister Mary Vincent. Later there are letters - one I think from the Passionates Order ? in Buenos Aires written to Sister Mary Vincent.
Also an affidavit from ?? (can't recall) ... stating that Thomas used surname spelled as "MEAGHER" whilst his brother Michael was known as MAHER (even though in one part James refers to his father's brother as Michael MEAGHER ). It's all there. ;)
~ Lu
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The following link has burials for Mount Street Roman Catholic Cemetery in Wellington :
http://www.mountstreetcemetery.org.nz/dox/Copy%20of%20Burial%20list%20-%20updated%20to%20website%20130530.pdf
Indexed as MAHER / MEAGHER :
[Noticed there is a burial for a Richard MAHER who appears to be eldest son of Patrick and Mary - further details to come - he apparently died at the home of his brother-in-law ? ]
Re: Richard MAHER - mentioned above: Can now rule out this man as being the son of Patrick and Mary MAHER even though he was close in age to their Richard.
The above apparently hailed from Templemore, Tipperary and his background is covered at the following link of persons buried at Mount Street Cemetery.
http://www.familytreecircles.com/the-residents-of-mount-street-cemetery-wellington-from-1841-ma-mc-names-48482.html
~ Lu
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Thank you for your help, have you looked at Michael's Probate here:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9LW-PYBS?i=222&cc=1865481
He has bequests for his 4 nieces:
Thomas's daughter: Sister Mary Vincent and two other nuns:
Sister Cortona of St Joseph's Convent , Manly Sydney
and
Sister Mary of the Sisters of Mercy in Colombo St in Christchurch
and
Annie Cooney
I need to connect them somehow to Michael's other siblings.
Always "good form" to quote exactly what is given in the document. ;D
In this case the niece is recorded in Will as "Annie COONEY, wife of John COONEY of the of City Wellington, Returned Soldier "....
Seems this Annie is actually "Agnes BIDDLE" (daughter of the aforementioned Hannah BIDDLE (nee MEAGHER) a.k.a. Johanna BIDDLE ).
NZ Marriage Index
Agnes BIDDLE - John COONEY - Marriage year: 1907
Agnes and John COONEY appear to be the parents of the 19-year-old Noel COONEY (Noel Francis COONEY) who was buried (1934) at Mount Street Cemetery with Patrick, Mary and John MAHER.
[Refer to post earlier in this thread. ]
~ Lu
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Don't worry ... here's the link >
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L92R-HRW7?mode=g&i=348&cc=1865481
Sorry ... yes, I missed it (very long Probate and a good deal of information to be taken in. )
Of course, Michael MAHER is only estimating his brother's age (about 60 years) ... and 1839 isn't too far removed from 1842 (his approx. birth year on arrival in Melbourne and NZ.)
~ Lu
I think this needs to be verified. I don't understand why you think his brother Michael would get Thomas's birth date wrong by 3 years, especially in an affadavit. You can see in the last letter that Thomas wrote to him from Buenos Aires that they were close, it doesn't make sense
Perhaps we could go back to the Irish birth records for Killenaule County Tipperary for verification?
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Maher Place in Poriria, just down the road from Takapu Road.
http://www.pcc.govt.nz/About-Porirua/Porirua-s-heritage/Porirua-s-suburbs/East-Porirua/East-Porirua-Signpost-Stories#Porirua%20East
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Maher Place in Poriria, just down the road from Takapu Road.
http://www.pcc.govt.nz/About-Porirua/Porirua-s-heritage/Porirua-s-suburbs/East-Porirua/East-Porirua-Signpost-Stories#Porirua%20East
Thank you Whenu. I found that myself a few months ago. A kind lady(Ruth Barrett) at Porirua City Council has been helping me find all the land that my great great grandfather Thomas Meagher had there, he leased it to his son Tom Maher when he went to Buenos Aires in 1899. Maher Place is name after Tom Maher. She also helped with other information. I found out that Tom Maher was a bit of a recluse. I think I will need to go to the Wellington archives to find more stories and photos of our Porirua heritage. I only have one blurred photo of Tom Maher, he was a gaint, well over 6 feet tall as was his brother James(my great grandfather), they said Tom would always ride around on a draft horse. His brothers John and and Joseph were policeman. John was one of the first constables at Taumarunui, and Joseph settled there too.
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I don't understand why you think his brother Michael would get Thomas's birth date wrong by 3 years, especially in an affadavit. You can see in the last letter that Thomas wrote to him from Buenos Aires that they were close, it doesn't make sense ...
marsbar60 ... please re-read what I have said previously.
I have not said that Michael MAHER got the birth date of Thomas wrong, at all !!
What you need to understand is that in genealogy / family history ... call it what you will, "everything" is not always "black and white". In records, be they formal or informal, there can be large variances in dates / time frames ... and errors too relating to all manner of things. This is why it's important endeavour to gather as many sources as possible to assist verification.
But, I'd ask you the question too, how do you know that Michael MAHER's information is correct ?
Looks like he was in occasional contact with Thomas (when other family members weren't) - that doesn't necessarily suggest he was close, nor does it guarantee he was correct about "facts" he supplied in his statement.
So when you say "it doesn't make sense", it would seem that there are other factors you haven't considered that might be in play ?
~ Lu
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Sure, I understand, I will keep an open mind. But I think the only way to prove that Michael may have not remembered when Thomas was born is to provide more verification such as Irish birth records. Unless proven otherwise, for now I believe Michael died at 87(or 88) years old in 1921 as per his death cert. etc and that Thomas was born in 1839. Regarding the Cyclopedia article, one of their representatives have already told me that their dates are often innacurate.
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I think this needs to be verified. I don't understand why you think his brother Michael would get Thomas's birth date wrong by 3 years, especially in an affadavit. You can see in the last letter that Thomas wrote to him from Buenos Aires that they were close, it doesn't make sense
Perhaps we could go back to the Irish birth records for Killenaule County Tipperary for verification?
[Struckthrough paragraph, already dealt with. ]
marsbar60 ... at the outset of this thread you asked "I would like to search the Marchioness passenger lists to identify the whole family including Thomas and Michaels parents ..."
I've added a lot of information here for you regarding the MAHER (MAHR) family found on the
"Marchioness" which I now wonder if you've overlooked reading it ??
I don't see where you've acknowledged (or accepted) that the parents of Thomas MEAGHER were indeed Patrick and Mary MAHER (MAHR) ... and now you've skipped to wanting verification from Irish records ??
Thomas MEAGHER died in Argentina.
* Have you got a copy of his death record ??
~ Lu
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Don't worry I have read everything you have posted, and thank you again.
You do have the best immigration match for that early NZ generation. I will verify Patrick and Mary's family (if possible?) through the Irish family birth records.
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Headstone photo (Wellington) - MAHER - Patrick, Mary and John
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Maher&GSiman=1&GScid=2178975&GRid=64727930&
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That's great thanks, Noel Cooney too!
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I also got Thomas's wife Mary's gravesite details today. She is buried in Karori Wellington(2nd largest cemetary in NZ) plot 109A in the Roman Catholic Area, along with Thomas's son Tom(1942) and Eugene (1945) (Eugene(A.k.a Hugh, not marked on the headstone) I have a picture of Eugene, he was my great grandfather's (James) best man at his wedding in 1901.
The wording is hard to read, but it says:
Sacred
To The Memory Of
Mary Meagher
Who Died July 12th 1916
In her 75th Year
Mayest Thou Sleep
In The Peace Of The Lord
Also Her Son
Thomas
Died 15th of January 1942
Aged 74 Years
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If you have access to the ancestry.com site (some large NZ libraries have free access ) there is someone who has a family tree for Edgar BIDDLE - the husband of Hannah MEAGHER (MAHER).
Tree name is "Jo-Anne Clarke Family Tree".
It has given Hannah's birth as >
Judith Hannah MAHER (MEAGHER) - 14 March 1852 - Graytown, Killenaule, Tipperary
The tree names her parents as "Patrick MAHER (MEAGHER) and Mary DWYER".
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I was able to find an Irish Parish record for this (at FindMyPast website - pay site) which showed as >
BIRTHS - 1852 - MEAGHER - Judith of Patrick MEAGHER and Mary DWYER
No luck with yet with finding any other family members.
~ Lu
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oops ... forgot to add to last post >
IRELAND - Roman Catholic Baptisms
MEAGHER - Judith
Birth Year : ---
Baptism Year : 1852
Baptism Date : 14 March 1852
Residence : Graystown Hill
Parish : Killenaule
Alternative Parish Names : Killenaule and Moyglass, Moyglass
Diocese : Cashel and Emly
County : Tipperary
[Parents as given previously : Patrick MEAGHER and Mary DWYER ]
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Have a feeling these Ireland Parish records may be viewable online for free now - will see if I can locate link ?
~ Lu
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Thank you again, it looks like my great grandfather James was spot on about Killenaule too. I intend to write all this up into a booklet for our family. (I used to produce a local club magazine) I want to get more photos of Thomas Meagher's family first though, if I can find them. I emailed the Catholic church in Perth trying to find more info on Sister Mary Vincent who was residing at Leonora near Perth when Thomas died in 1919.
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So you can look these Ireland - Roman Catholic parish records, up yourself at the following link.
http://registers.nli.ie/
When inserting the name of the parish > "Killenaule" > you're given two options - suggest you search both.
~ Lu
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I've found the baptism of Thomas MAHER : :)
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632749#page/72/mode/1up
> Use the page that comes up on screen
> Select Year, 1840 -- Month, February
> Select left-hand side page
> Date looks to be 8 (February)
Annoyingly all the christian names of the babes seem to be abbreviated.
Here's my transcription :
Parish : Killenaule and Moyglass (Tipperary)
1840 - February 8
Tom of Patt. MAHER and Mary DWYER
*Sp: Patt or Matt DANIEL (looks like ?) and ? (Wm?) DWYER, Graytown.
[Note: Patt. was a usual abbreviation for "Patrick" in these records - sometimes also spelled as Patk. Tom = Thomas / Jno. = John etc. ]
~ Lu
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I had started as well (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632749#page/1/mode/1up) , but not found anything yet, Awesome!
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... and Michael. :)
Same Parish as for Thomas :
September - 1841 - day = 29
Micl. of Patk. MEAGHER and Mary DWYER
Sp: Thomas DWYER and Mary MEAGHER, Graystown.
[Note: Micl. = abbrev. of Michael. ]
~ Lu
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Great to know! Gosh the NZ death cert. was 7 years off on Michael's age at death, I am learning :-)
I have my tree on familysearch and I have Legacy9 to back it up offline.
I have always been wondering if someone else has followed the same tree back this far, perhaps on Ancestry, but I have friends on Ancestry and we have never found this part of the Maher/Meagher tree. After filling in as many details as possible I can go to one of my friends with a GEDCOM file and upload it to Ancestry, otherwise what would you suggest?
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Thanks for the interesting (finer) details on Mary/Patrick and the Meaghers.
Especially the Hannah, Hanna , Johannah, Judith sub-topic. - noting that Marys mother was Johanna Dee
(The Biddle story is one worth researching)
FWIW I descend from Catherine (1845-1895) m(1866) John Casey(1843-1879) - Of Casey Farm Ngaio(sic).
Catherine and John also both buried at Mount St. - no headstone currently evident.
Re Maher Place
One of my todo's , was to look into "Meagher Park" for a connection - do you have anything on that already
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So good to hear from a fellow researcher. I have been in touch with a historian at Porirua city council about Maher Place and we found this is named after Thomas Maher Junior, his father was Thomas Meagher. Thomas Meagher built up around a 2000 acre farm in Takapu Porirua and he was my Great Great Grandfather. My Great Grandfather was Thomas Meagher's second son James. Thomas Meagher separated officially from his wife Mary and moved to Buenos Aires from Porirua in 1899 and died there on 1st April 1919. His probate is available online. I am pretty sure that Meagher Park was named after Thomas Senior. I have some family photos that show James visiting a Ngaio property, but I haven't figured out the connection there yet.
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.... My Great Grandfather was Thomas Meagher's second son James....
Hi Cuz (4th).
My interest with this Meagher/Maher thread is via Catherine. As already evident the shipping records offer a family grouping that is not evident elsewhere - at least not in the usual channels. Spelling not withstanding, missing parents names on death certificates is a hindrance and the dates are imprecise ...
Catherine is listed as 10 in 1858 giving a DoB of 1848 yet here death in 1895 (NZ BDM 1895/6118) gives her age of 50 (with Year in NZ) as 40) - meaning a DoB 1845 (Arrival = 1855).
While I have a tentative DNA link with one of you cousins, having Thomas (Snr) die out of the country has meant indirect linkages are needed in order to connect.
This thread has discussed the connection with Michael and Thomas, however Michael is the pivot for me as he is noted as an executor to the will of John Casey (Snr d-1879) , Catherine's husband, and also has John Casey (Junior) , Catherine's son, as an executor on his will.
I am lost as to what the politics/societal environment of 1921 was, that allowed Michael's death certificate to fail to record his parents names (and hence a concrete connection to Mary & Patrick). Was he a cousin maybe (masquerading as a son for immigration purposes in 1858) - Or was it just a lazy/busy undertaker?
Re: Photo from Ngaio : the exact date may be important as the Ngaio area of the time might mean anything from Khandallah to Crofton(Downs) with Nairnville in between being the current suburbs in an area that was also referred to as Upper Kaiwar(r)a, (Kaiwhara, Kaiwharawhara).
Re. Takapu and the Farm of Thomas Meagher - do you know the exact location of the farm homestead?
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Part quote from response above......
"I am lost as to what the politics/societal environment of 1921 was, that allowed Michael's death certificate to fail to record his parents names (and hence a concrete connection to Mary & Patrick). Was he a cousin maybe (masquerading as a son for immigration purposes in 1858) - Or was it just a lazy/busy undertaker?"
Even today there are deaths registered without details of parentage and indeed other information can also be missing. The details provided at this time are only as good as the knowledge of the person supplying them. If there are gaps in what they know, this will result in empty spaces (or "not known") on the printout/certificate. It should also be noted that even the information provided may not necessarily be accurate.......
Minniehaha.
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Hi Peter, lots of questions to answer here and I am very interested in carrying on this thread so I can fill out more of our family tree, and we can help each other fill in the missing pieces.
I don’t know the exact location of the farmhouse where Thomas Maher Jnr lived in Takapu Porirua but I have photos of it and Thomas and his Buick, from when my great grandfather visited him in 1932.
I have made a circular tree of all the members of the Maher/Meagher family that I have found so far including birth and death dates etc. Patrick and Mary are at the centre of the tree, it is in PDF format so will I see if I can send it to you via a PM.
I have found local members of John Maher and Avis Dunstan’s family near where I live, so I will finish their section of the tree as I get time. John Maher was the policeman for Taumarunui starting 16th Dec 1903.
Of course this is from Thomas Meagher Senior’s side the tree, Catherine’s (his sister) part of the tree is still completely blank at this stage.
I also have four photos mentioning Ngaio and Khandallah and photos of a place called “The Moorings” (taken in 1924 and 1926), where my great grandfather (James) and grandmother (Emily) used to visit regularly. I would really like to know who they were visiting there.
I have been away for six months doing a bicycle tour of England, Ireland and Western Europe. I cycled up to Graystown – Co Tippery from Fethard where I was staying in Ireland, which is where Patrick and Mary lived when Michael and Thomas were born . I also spent a couple of hours in Killenaule with an historian who emailed me the following:
(Start of email from Killenaule historian)
Marriage of Patrick Meagher and Mary Dwyer
Two possible entries for this
1st December 1838 between Pat Maher and Mary Dwyer (Boreheen) and
24th February 1840 between Patt Maher (Tullarone) and Mary Dwyer (Boreheen).
I would guess the first is the correct one as the second takes place after the birth of Tom Maher but I'll give you both just in case.
See photo's pat_mary_marriage_1838_or_1840, pat_mary_marriage_1838_orig and pat_mary_marriage_1840_orig.
Children of Patrick Meagher and Mary Dwyer.
There was no sign of any children called either Richard or Mary with Patrick/Mary as parents so I can't shed any light on the identity of the couple. The following are the baptism dates for the other children.
Tom - 8th February 1840
Michael - 29th Sept 1841
Catherine - 3rd March 1844
James - 5th May 1846
John - 22nd Jan 1849
Judith - 14th March 1852.
Photo's from the Index and the original entry for all the above are on the drive.
Possible Parents of Patrick Meagher
I checked the records for any Patrick Meagher or Maher born in 1814 and found one
Patt Maher bapt 24th Feb 1814. Father William Maher, Mother Julia Manning (see photos patt_maher_bapt1 and patt_maher_bapt1_orig)
No other children with seemingly the same parents however there was a Judith Maher born in 1816 to a William Maher and a Judith Hannin (see judith_maher_bapt_1816_orig), I wouldn't be surprised if Manning and Hannin are the same woman.
There's a couple of other Patrick Mahers born in the surrounding years in 1801 (see patt_maher_bapt1) and 1816 (see pat_maher_bapt2 and pat_maher_bapt2_original).
Of course your Pat Maher may only have come to the Parish later on in life so wasn't baptised here.
Parents of Mary Dwyer
A bit more luck with Mary's parents. From her death cert we get the names Maurice Dwyer and Johanna Dee and there are a number of entries for these two in the Baptism records.
There's no sign of Mary's baptism in 1807 (or any other year) but we do have some possible siblings.
James born 1815 (mother listed as Jude Dea)
Bridget born 1816 (mother listed as Joanna Dea)
John born 1819 (mother listed as Joanna Dee)
Catherine born 1834 (mother listed as Jude Dee)
The names James, John and Catherine are of course repeated in the next generation.
The family's location (Boreheen) for the baptism of Catherine is the same as listed for Mary in (both of) the Marriage listings mentioned above.
I forgot to check if there was a marriage entry for Maurice and Johanna listed but given there's no baptism record for Mary It's possible they were already married and had at least one child before moving to the Parish. I will check the Marriage listings next time I'm looking.
(End of email from Killenaule historian)
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The Moorings is the name of an historic house in Thorndon
http://www.wellingtoncityheritage.org.nz/buildings/1-150/134-the-moorings
http://www.wellingtoncityheritage.org.nz/buildings/1-150/134-the-moorings
May have been visiting JS Swan who owned/lived 1905 -1936 in the house after designing and having it built. He was an architect.
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The Moorings in Thorndon is very different. I have put a link in below of the photos of the "Moorings" in Ngaio, one in 1924 without a garage and one in 1926 with a garage, hopefully they can be viewed, I made the album public. There are also four others, one has Emily my great grandmother and Ralph my Grandfather together in the 50s.
Any help about the location would be appreciated as there are is no address on the back of the photo.
It is taken by Ralph's older brother Richard and he always referred to Emily as "The Mother"
https://www.flickr.com/photos/128769929@N02/40012097763/in/album-72157683718979435/
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I am not familiar with Wellington so am possibly/probably barking up the wrong tree.
There are a number of references to "The Moorings", not all at the same address and would appear to be nursing homes. However there is one at 54 Hobson Street on which there is more information [see last entry below].....
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers?phrase=2&snippet=true&title=HVI%2CKOP%2CMATUH%2CMKURA%2CNZCPNA%2CNZFL%2CNZGWS%2CNZSCSG%2CNZTIM%2CPUKEH%2CUHWR%2CVT%2CWAG%2CWAIST%2CWDT%2CWI%2COTMAIL%2CNZMAIL%2CDOM%2CEP%2CHN&query=%22the+moorings%22
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19130412.2.2?query=%22the%20moorings%22&phrase=2&page=4&snippet=true&title=HVI,KOP,MATUH,MKURA,NZCPNA,NZFL,NZGWS,NZSCSG,NZTIM,PUKEH,UHWR,VT,WAG,WAIST,WDT,WI,OTMAIL,NZMAIL,DOM,EP,HN
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTIM19150206.2.23?query=%22the%20moorings%22&phrase=2&page=6&snippet=true&title=HVI,KOP,MATUH,MKURA,NZCPNA,NZFL,NZGWS,NZSCSG,NZTIM,PUKEH,UHWR,VT,WAG,WAIST,WDT,WI,OTMAIL,NZMAIL,DOM,EP,HN
Minniehaha.
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Thanks. It doesn't look like the road or the house in my photo, were you able to follow the photo link? I might do some street surfing on Google Maps
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I just did a Google search and find these same images but with a date in the 1920s. So are we looking around then? Meaning house may have been known as The Moorings in the 1920s. Obviously the house is older. WCC has archives that may be worth exploring.
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Hi Peter, lots of questions to answer here and I am very interested in carrying on this thread so I can fill out more of our family tree, and we can help each other fill in the missing pieces.
All good stuff, thanks.
Thanks for the photos ... I see what you mean by "tall" ....
Re Catherine Meagher (1843-1895) and Ngaio.
Catherine married (1866) John Casey (1843-1879)
"Caseys Farm" was in Ngaio/Crofton and supplied milk to the wider area.
As you have referred to the Cyclopedia of NZ you will find a bio of John (John and Catherines son). The mother referred to is Catherine.
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc01Cycl-t1-body-d4-d107-d4.html#name-415093-mention
(I descend from Catherines daughter Mary Angelina (1867-1937) m (1891) John McDonnell (1866-1937)
The house photos looks like a number of settings in the Wellington area (House in the crook of a tight descending valley road). The presence of houses above on the crest of the hill is significant. I will go for a drive ....
The body for research information in this area is the "Onslow Historical Society". I have been meaning to delve into their records....
As an aside The Moorings, Thorndon is in Glenbervie Terrace.
Probably coincidental speculation. However Hannah and Edgar Biddle lived in Glenbervie Terrace before they moved to Murphy Street around 1900. On Hannahs death, her property was granted to her daughter Agnes, who is noted living in Murphy Street. This does not preclude that another plot of land was still owned.
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Thank you Peter, you have done some some great research on the Wellington members of Patrick and Mary's family, I will put that information in Catherine's branch of the Tree. I have sent you a private message in case you would like my details (Rootschat - My Messages). I would like to spend a few days in Wellington at some stage doing more research especially on Thomas Senior's family (Thomas Junior was his first son). From Papers past I have been able to see that Michael, Thomas and James (Meagher/Maher) were working for W.B. Rhodes at his property the Grange on Wadestown Road after Patrick's (their father) death, but I would like to find out more about that and their early Porirua life. Also not sure what happened to James yet.
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I just did a Google search and find these same images but with a date in the 1920s. So are we looking around then? Meaning house may have been known as The Moorings in the 1920s. Obviously the house is older. WCC has archives that may be worth exploring.
Hi Shanreagh, yes these images are from 1924 (without garage) and 1926 (with garage)
Could you share your link to the images?
Thank you
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.... My Great Grandfather was Thomas Meagher's second son James....
Hi Cuz (4th).
My interest with this Meagher/Maher thread is via Catherine. As already evident the shipping records offer a family grouping that is not evident elsewhere - at least not in the usual channels. Spelling not withstanding, missing parents names on death certificates is a hindrance and the dates are imprecise ...
Catherine is listed as 10 in 1858 giving a DoB of 1848 yet here death in 1895 (NZ BDM 1895/6118) gives her age of 50 (with Year in NZ) as 40) - meaning a DoB 1845 (Arrival = 1855).
While I have a tentative DNA link with one of you cousins, having Thomas (Snr) die out of the country has meant indirect linkages are needed in order to connect.
This thread has discussed the connection with Michael and Thomas, however Michael is the pivot for me as he is noted as an executor to the will of John Casey (Snr d-1879) , Catherine's husband, and also has John Casey (Junior) , Catherine's son, as an executor on his will.
I am lost as to what the politics/societal environment of 1921 was, that allowed Michael's death certificate to fail to record his parents names (and hence a concrete connection to Mary & Patrick). Was he a cousin maybe (masquerading as a son for immigration purposes in 1858) - Or was it just a lazy/busy undertaker?
Re: Photo from Ngaio : the exact date may be important as the Ngaio area of the time might mean anything from Khandallah to Crofton(Downs) with Nairnville in between being the current suburbs in an area that was also referred to as Upper Kaiwar(r)a, (Kaiwhara, Kaiwharawhara).
Re. Takapu and the Farm of Thomas Meagher - do you know the exact location of the farm homestead?
I know it is in Takapu - Porirua, and according to an historian at the Porirua City Council they used to use the Maher property airstrip there for many years to do top-dressing in the area.
I have 1 (and only 1) photo of Thomas(jnr) Maher taken in Oct 1932 (died 15th Jan 1942) with his property in the background and a second one (also Oct 1932) with my Great Grandfather James Maher (his brother) walking away and his wife Emily (Lilley) and another lady, also with his property in the background.
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Re: The Meagher Land in Porirua
With the help of early maps provided by a historian at the Porirua City Council (circa 1880) I have figured by overlaying google maps that some of the first blocks of land that Thomas Meagher Senior bought is right where Meagher Park is located today in Porirua.
The blocks that he bought up are highlighted by the Historian.
A quote from the Porirua Library History Website: (was at https://porirualibrary.org.nz/Heritage they have moved it now)
"During the 1880s many of the small farms were bought to form larger holdings. Owners of these large holding included Charles Cottle (for whom Cottle Park Drive is named), the Galloways, Thomas Meagher and Sir William Fitzherbert. In 1891 Fitzherbert died and in 1903 the Liberal Government negotiated to buy the 1640 acre Belmont Farm that Fitzherbert had owned. They paid £15,419 for the property."
I am still not sure why one block/section right next to Thomas senior's blocks was labelled P. Meagher. Perhaps Patrick, his father, bought that block before he died in 1859.
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I had found some time to introduce myself to the Land Information archives a couple of months ago.
Learning the language and filing/indexing of the late 1800s took longer than I expected but I found a few nuggets that appear to relate (I need to revisit the archive as my initial photos are not good)
The first image appears to show a subdivision of lot 26 (neighboring the already identified 24)
The words in the transfer reference "the southern half of section 26" and the seller being Charles Stevens (a name shown on the above maps)
What I am less sure is a direct match is a reference to Section 35.
- The shape is wrong
- The reference to section 36 (may have later been consumed by the adjacent block)
However, it comes with a chronology (1876-1907) which shows "a" Patrick Meagher as the original owner , a mortgage relate period then to Thomas (Snr) then to Thomas(Jnr)
Note: This "Patrick Meagher" would appear to be different from the one we have been talking about here.
A BDM death index has a Patrick Meagher death in 1887 aged 56 (= b 1831). however this patricks probate is from Auckland and makes no reference to any Wellington land.
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That's great thank you Peter. I know that Thomas Senior left for Argentina in 1899 which fits with the transfer of land to his son. I would like to know more about the Land Information archives. I am also quite interested in what land transfer a occured once the Thomas seniors probate was actioned in 1920 and also what happened to the land ownership when Thomas jnr died 15-1-1942
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Very good article in the journal of the Scottish Genealogy Society on the voyage of the "Bengal Merchant!" from Port Glasgow in October 1839, Capt' John Hemery. She carried 160 passengers, the first Scottish emigrants to settle in New Zealand.
The Scottish Genealogist! March '19. Might be available online, dinnae ken!
Skoosh.