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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: nettex on Monday 05 June 17 20:05 BST (UK)
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Hi Im looking for John Williams b Birmingham about 1870 he married Amelia Veness and was living with his inlaws in 1891.I would love to find out about his children birthdates and addresses please.
Thanks nettex.
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Register at the GRO and find the kids birth registrations.
Then try and find baptisms, once you have a name , approximate date and location.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
https://familysearch.org/search
Pauline
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are you certain John was b c 1870
on marriage in 1889 he is age 27 and in 1891 he is age 29 -giving a birth age c. 1862 ???
Marriage parish register image
Page 247 entry 491
Marriage St Jude Birmingham
John Williams 27 bachekor Brass Founder 7 ct 2 house Bromsgrove St father Evain Williams Fire Iron Maker
Amelia Vaness 19 spinster address as above father John Vaness Occ Hawker
witnesses F Burns signed & A Chandler xher mark
John made his mark and Amelia signed
1881 the family are Vaness
1891 Amelia's father is John Smith occ Hawker??? and the rest of the family are Smith
Suz
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Hi looking at that marriage, I believe John was born June qtr 1861 Aston v6d page 251 mmn COTTRILL, his family were in 1871 census:-
Ann Williams 46 Widow occ Fire Iron Polisher
James 17 occ Fire Iron Polisher
Evan 13 occ Fire Iron Polisher
JOHN 9
Priscalla ( Priscilla) 35 Cousin
All born Warwickshire
Residing at Floodgate Street, Court House, Birmingham
Census Ref RG10/3107/78/9
In 1861 census
Evan Williams 36 occ White Smith
Ann 36
Elizabeth Cotterill 17
Mary A Williams 12
James 7
Evan 4
Residing at 6 Court, 2, Glover Street, Aston
Census Ref RG09/2169/52/45
Marriage Evan Williams to Ann Cotterill June qtr 1860 Birmingham 6d 69
Marriage was 24th June 1860 Birmingham, St Jude
Evan Williams 35 Batchelor occ Whitesmith Father Evan occ Brass Founder
Ann Cotterill 35 Spinster Father George Cotterill occ Vice Maker
Both residing Glover Street.
Keyboard86
EDIT Evan b June qtr 1857 Aston is mmn Cottrill, but Mary A and James?
The Elizabeth Williams on the 1891 census was born Dec qtr 1890 Birmingham 6d 92 mmn VENESS
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Hi Pauline, thanks i have taken up your advice.
Thankyou Suzard for your information.
Keyboard Thank you for the census records a lot of infomation. John Williams and Amelia Veness did not stay together long. On the 1901 census she is living with Jame Rowles and she is using the surname Rowles,i can not find a marrage for them. They have at least 5 children. I believe John Williams is Still alive at that point. James and Amelia Have a daughter Ann b1895/6 on the 1901 census her surname is Rowles but it may well be Williams. I cant find a birth for Ann rowles in Birmingham for those years. Any information about Ann,s birth or any williams siblings woul be of help.
many thanks nettex
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Go back to the GRO search!
WILLIAMS, ANN MMN: VENESS 1893 Sept Quarter in ASTON
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Thanks Pauline, Iam waiting for a confirmation email from GRO.
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Hi in 1901 census looks like John is back in Floodgate Street:-
John Williams 39 occ Brass Founder
Elizabeth 10
Edgar 8
Shown as boarders
Census ref RG13/2837/87/41
Keyboard86
Edit Edgar could be the son of Edgar & Matilda Williams,( maybe not as with family in 1901 aged 9) John aged 50 Married occ Brass Dresser shown as Inmate at possibly the Workhouse Western Road, All Saints, Birmingham?
Added
1851 census
Evan Williams 29 occ Fire Iron Maker
Ann 27
Mary 2
Residing at Little Bow Street Court
Census ref HO107/2052/632/30
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Well other than trying to locate a possible son Edgar of John/Amelia c 1892, I see the first born James, of James Rowles /Amelia was born December qtr 1900 Walsall mmn Veness
Census ref RG13/2702/11/13
OK found the birth of Edgar :-
Edgar Williams September qtr 1892 Birmingham 6d 80 mmn Veness
So just what happened, why did John retain 2 children and Amelia 1 and then split?
Amelia Rowles dies September qtr 1937 Birmingham aged 66
Keyboard86
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Hi keyboard, Very strange, what i find stranger is James and amelia had a son in 1915 when they were both in thier 40s and at the time had moved to a tiny hamlet in worcestershire called Cotheridge. They stayed for a few years before moving back to Birmingham. I wonder if Ann Rowles/Williams went with them and perhaps she was the mother. Ann never married untill she was 35.
nettex
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:) What does the birth registration give for the maiden name of the son born 1915?
Keyboard86
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mmn is Veness but that just may be a cover up.
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mmn is Veness but that just may be a cover up.
You are referring to Bertie registered March qtr 1916 Worcester, why a "Cover up" why not use Williams if Ann?
Keyboard86
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Not sure maybe because they were going back to birmingham. Just puzzled how they ended up in such a small place.
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Not sure maybe because they were going back to birmingham. Just puzzled how they ended up in such a small place.
Purchase of the birth certificate of Bertie would answer all questions as to parents, address etc?!
Still wondering why Elizabeth 10 and Edgar 8 stayed with there father and what happened to them, in fact when/where did John die if in Workhouse 1911?!
Keyboard86
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I have Berties birth cert and it states mmn Veness father James Rowles. as you say why leave Elizabeth and Edgar and what happened to them. Btw Bertie was my Father,
nettex.
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;D And the full name of the mother eg Amelia Veness?
Keyboard86
Now to try to work out John/Elizabeth/Edgar from 1901?'
Keyboard86
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Hi again, Edgar Williams born 23rd March 1892 baptism 6th July 1892 Deritend, St Gabriel Father John occ Gas Chandler Maker Mother Amelia
Keyboard86
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I wonder if Elizabeth and Edgar knew of thier sister Ann or thier other half siblings. It would seem that John and Amelia got back together for a short time.
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Hi again, wish I knew, from birth of Ann 1893, until birth of James Rowles 1900 something was going on with the family that pulled them apart?!
Keyboard86
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Hi again, Edgar Williams born 23rd March 1892 baptism 6th July 1892 Deritend, St Gabriel Father John occ Gas Chandler Maker Mother Amelia
Keyboard86
Not suggesting it is him, but cannot locate a death in UK with this birth date, but a possible departure of an Edgar Williams of Albion Place, Blyth Street, Birmingham aged 31 with wife Elsie 26 and daughter Doris 21st June 1922 London to Melbourne on Vessel Euripides
Keyboard86
PS beware could be the son of Edgar and Matilda I mentioned!!
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found a marrage for annie ,James p Drinkwater worcester 1915
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found a marrage for annie ,James p Drinkwater worcester 1915
OK give me the full story?!
Keyboard86
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=182515.msg6259809#msg6259809
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=182515.msg6259809#msg6259809
;D Well well, an older thread, well Edgar should be a new search for OP, or maybe they know the answer to that as well?
Why no mention?
Keyboard86
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Hi keyboards whos op
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Hi keyboards whos op
>:( The original poster eg YOU, why did you not give us at least your knowledge of Ann/Annie?
Keyboard86
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I wasnt trying to find annie iwas trying to find her origanal family ie her father and what happened to him ect.
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Hi if we knew the facts re Annie and correctly worked backwards from her marriage/death, yes I agree, but no mention of Ann in your initial post?
Keyboard86
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there was no intention to decieve any one the origanal post was11 years ago i was just starting afresh.
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there was no intention to decieve any one the origanal post was11 years ago i was just starting afresh.
OK you have the facts re Edgar away you go!
Keyboard86
Also Elizabeth of course b 1890?
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Hi again, to help out:-
Baptism Elizabeth WILLIAM born 31st October 1890 baptism 16th November 1890 Birmingham, St Laurence Father John occ Brass Worker Mother Amelia address 13, Court 6 House. Sheep Street
Keyboard86
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Hi again, to help out:-
Baptism Elizabeth WILLIAM born 31st October 1890 baptism 16th November 1890 Birmingham, St Laurence Father John occ Brass Worker Mother Amelia address 13, Court 6 House. Sheep Street
Keyboard86
Possible marriage :-
Harry Platt 22 occ Carriage Lamp Polisher
Father James occ Cycle Packer
Address 13, Camp Street
Elizabeth Williams 21 Father John occ Brass Worker
Address 13, back of 464, Jarvison Lane
Witnesses Frank? Askew and Eleanor Hewartson Platt
29th September 1912 Bordesley, St Andrew
Keyboard86
EDIT. later returns tell me it is her!
Think her address could be Garrison Lane a boarder with a Murphy family and shown as Lizzie Williams aged 20 b Birmingham
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Thankyou very much for the last 2 posts and also the ones before.
nettex.
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Hi again, Edgar is a real problem, possibly in Army, possibly died WW1, possibly anywhere!
Death Harry Platt December qtr 1943 Birmingham 6d 149 aged 53
Death Elizabeth Platt June qtr 1951 Birmingham 9c 370 aged 60
Keyboard86
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Hi again, Edgar Williams born 23rd March 1892 baptism 6th July 1892 Deritend, St Gabriel Father John occ Gas Chandler Maker Mother Amelia
Keyboard86
Not suggesting it is him, but cannot locate a death in UK with this birth date, but a possible departure of an Edgar Williams of Albion Place, Blyth Street, Birmingham aged 31 with wife Elsie 26 and daughter Doris 21st June 1922 London to Melbourne on Vessel Euripides
Keyboard86
PS beware could be the son of Edgar and Matilda I mentioned!!
Not this departure son of Henry & Harriet
Keyboard86