RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: EBrand on Thursday 22 June 17 10:26 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I have a few ancestors that have been eluding me. These ancestors arrived from Scotland on the "Heber" on the 27th of July, 1839 (says the info I have in a letter from the Archives Office of NSW), and settled in the Scone District, specifically the Rouchel area of NSW. These ancestors were Findlay (Finlay possibly) and Catherine McDonald, aged 40 and 36 respectively. They were from Inverness and as of recently I haven't been able to find anything about their life in Scotland. They had children at the time of travel; Ferchan (18), John (15), Nancy (16), Margaret (14) and Catherine (8 ). Whilst I have found a bit of information about John and know a lot about Catherine (as I am descended from her), I still haven't been able to find anything about Finlay and Catherine's life either in Scotland or Australia, nor their children other than the ones I specified. I do know the supposed death dates for Finlay and Catherine, and that is the 29th of Nov 1866 and the 19th of November 1868.
If anyone has any clues or anything that could help me find mention of this family, I would be so grateful!
Thank you!
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Death: 6568/1866 Finley (sic) McDonald AGE 70 YEARS DIED SCONE SCONE
4874/1868 Catherine McDonald father JOHN DIED MAITLAND MAITLAND
Marriage of youngest daughter, Catherine to Donald William McLean: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18647019
534/1855 V1855534 82 Donald W Maclean to Catherine McDonald PC
Death:14045/1907 Catherine McLean parents FINLAY and CATHERINE INVERELL
Death notice, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121387423
Probate, 4th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article229919222
Death: 6796/1875 Donald W McLean parents Dugald and Susan INVERELL
Possible birth: 2821/1844 V18442821 28 Francis McDonald to FINLEY and CATHERINE
Possible death: 9930/1876 John McDonald parents FINLAY CATHERINE SCONE
Jamjar
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There is a probate packet for Finlay McDONALD https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/232485
I could photograph this for you next time I am there
Ros
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Death: 6568/1866 Finley (sic) McDonald AGE 70 YEARS DIED SCONE SCONE
4874/1868 Catherine McDonald father JOHN DIED MAITLAND MAITLAND
Marriage of youngest daughter, Catherine to Donald William McLean: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18647019
534/1855 V1855534 82 Donald W McClean to Catherine McDonald PC
Death:14045/1907 Catherine McLean parents FINLAY and CATHERINE INVERELL
Death notice, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121387423
Probate, 4th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article229919222
Death: 6796/1875 Donald W McClean parents Dugald and Susan INVERELL
Possible birth: 2821/1844 V18442821 28 Francis McDonald to FINLEY and CATHERINE
Possible death: 9930/1876 John McDonald parents FINLAY CATHERINE SCONE
Jamjar
Thank you so much for this! There were a few resources that I had missed!
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There is a probate packet for Finlay McDONALD https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/232485
I could photograph this for you next time I am there
Ros
Thank you! I would greatly appreciate if you could!
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No problem EB :)
I can photograph Catherine McLEAN's too (the one jamjar found).
Ros
(Pity you didn't post yesterday as I was at NSW RO today and it will be 3 weeks or so until I go again
:( )
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No problem EB :)
I can photograph Catherine McLEAN's too (the one jamjar found).
Ros
(Pity you didn't post yesterday as I was at NSW RO today and it will be 3 weeks or so until I go again
:( )
Thank you! That would mean a lot to me as C. McLean is my g-g-great grandmother, and Finlay my g-g-g-great grandfather!
I'm sure you are so much closer than I am, over here in Western Australia, which is why I am so grateful, thank you!!
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Deleted, as I'd misread.
Jamjar
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EBrand, do you know anything about Margaret, Nancy and Ferchan?
Jamjar
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I'm happy to help EB :) And can photograph others too.
Here is NSW SRO site https://www.records.nsw.gov.au
If you find any other probates for the family then just shout. You can just type in their name to the main search box and can qualify with a death year to cut down the results
eg Fred Smith 1935
There is an annoying gap in the online indexes (1891-1927). If there is a family member who has died in that time frame then I can check on microfiche for a probate when I am there.
Ros
(ex-sandgroper)
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Using wildcards there is this death
1905
ADLAM Margaret, father Finlay, mother Catherine at Muswellbrook reg 9734/1905
obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article104906856
Ros
adding : no this lady was 81 so not the right one :(
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I think possibly "Ferchan" could be Farquhar?
Annie
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Margaret who married Edward Adlam was Irish: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article706234
J.
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And the wrong age too Jamjar - I added to my post to say it was the wrong lady :(
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I think possibly "Ferchan" could be Farquhar?
Should have added the gaelic spelling "Fearchar"
I have one in my tree recorded as Fergus!
Farquhar being his forename.
This may help....
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Farquhar
Annie
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Good thinking Annie :)
I found some deaths of Farquhar McDonald which didn't seem to match. Just tried Fear* without success too.
But it's getting late for us ...
Ros
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These ancestors arrived from Scotland on the "Heber" on the 27th of July, 1839 (says the info I have in a letter from the Archives Office of NSW)
Did they give you the full information from the immigration records? The handwriting is atrocious but I agree with the transcription of the entitlement certificate here:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XHL3-MLP?cc=1542665
There is a note that Findlay appeared older than the stated age of 35, and Theodore McRAE J.P. of Inverness certified that both he and Catherine were under 40. Findlay is recorded as being 39 on the manifest of passengers. You probably need to be a bit flexible with all the ages.
Farquhar and Nancy are listed separately as they are over 15 years and 'Farquhar' is spelt that way. His place of birth is illegible, hers is Ayrshire.
To search and look at the church register images you need to go to ScotlandsPeople
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
The marriage indexed on FamilySearch:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT5X-X4T
This is probably Farquhar, baptised before the marriage:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBS3-QW1
You also need to be flexible with names. I suspect this may be the marriage of Findlay's parents with her surname spelt as MACILLAVRAE:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT5H-YHQ
Debra :)
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"You also need to be flexible with names. I suspect this may be the marriage of Findlay's parents with her surname spelt as MACILLAVRAE"
That's a cracker Dundee ;D
The more common spellings would be MacGillivray/MacGillivary etc.
Annie
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Did they give you the full information from the immigration records? The handwriting is atrocious but I agree with the transcription of the entitlement certificate here:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XHL3-MLP?cc=1542665
There is a note that Findlay appeared older than the stated age of 35, and Theodore McRAE J.P. of Inverness certified that both he and Catherine were under 40. Findlay is recorded as being 39 on the manifest of passengers. You probably need to be a bit flexible with all the ages.
Farquhar and Nancy are listed separately as they are over 15 years and 'Farquhar' is spelt that way. His place of birth is illegible, hers is Ayrshire.
To search and look at the church register images you need to go to ScotlandsPeople
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
The marriage indexed on FamilySearch:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT5X-X4T
This is probably Farquhar, baptised before the marriage:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBS3-QW1
You also need to be flexible with names. I suspect this may be the marriage of Findlay's parents with her surname spelt as MACILLAVRAE:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT5H-YHQ
Debra :)
Thank you everyone for your help on the alternative names! I always thought Farquhar as more of a surname, and wasn't sure how common the name Ferchan was! I'll remember to keep my mind open for alternative spellings in the future!
And thank you Dundee for linking me to all of these posts, it does look like that last link could very well be Farquhar and Mary's marriage, and the dates seem correct. I did know about Findlay's flexibility of age but couldn't remember if they said he put it up or down :)
What I find quite interesting is how both Findlay's and Catherine/Katharine's fathers were McDonalds. I wonder if there were many different McDonald branches at the time, as they were both from Inverness.
Thank you all for your help!
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Possible death: 9930/1876 John McDonald parents FINLAY CATHERINE SCONE
There is a probate packet for this man also (I checked the date and it is 21 Feb 1876)
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/293365
I will photograph this also :)
Ros
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I found some deaths of Farquhar McDonald which didn't seem to match. Just tried Fear* without success too.
Ros,
Did you try searching 'Fer' as the gaelic pronunciation is actually Feracher.
Not sure how it would be spelt?
Also, Farquhar may have been spelt differently.
It's not a very common name & they would all be gaelic spoken i.e. it's anyone's guess as to what it may have been recorded as & as I said, mine was down as Fergus on one census.
Being gaelic spoken & the info. being taken by English speakers could turn up a few strange ones depending on how it sounded ;D
My man was born & still living in Scotland but the info. was still recorded as it was presumed to have been by the enumerator who was probably American?
Annie
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NSW Electoral Roll 1870 UPPER HUNTER, Scone Police District
Francis MCDONALD, residence, Rouchel
John MCDONALD, freehold, Rouchel
NSW ER 1878 UPPER HUNTER, Scone PD
NONE with surname MCDONALD at Rouchel.
Grevilles PO Directory 1875
Rouchellbrook, a settlement in the police district of Scone, electorate of The Upper Hunter, county of Brisbane. …..
McDONALD, John
McDONALD, Frances
NSW State Archives online Deceased Estates Index has J McDONALD, (locality) Rouchel, died 31 July 1897, duty 23 Nov 1897.
NSW BDM online death index has a Jane MCDONALD's death as 31 July 1897, registered Scone district. #9743 (her parents as Alexander and Lucy)
JM
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NSW Electoral Roll 1870 UPPER HUNTER, Scone Police District
Francis MCDONALD, residence, Rouchel
John MCDONALD, freehold, Rouchel
NSW ER 1878 UPPER HUNTER, Scone PD
NONE with surname MCDONALD at Rouchel.
Grevilles PO Directory 1875
Rouchellbrook, a settlement in the police district of Scone, electorate of The Upper Hunter, county of Brisbane. …..
McDONALD, John
McDONALD, Frances
NSW State Archives online Deceased Estates Index has J McDONALD, (locality) Rouchel, died 31 July 1897, duty 23 Nov 1897.
NSW BDM online death index has a Jane MCDONALD's death as 31 July 1897, registered Scone district. #9743 (her parents as Alexander and Lucy)
JM
Yes! Jane McDonald (nee Cameron) was the wife of John McDonald. Her parents were Alexander and Lucy Cameron. She dies 1897 and John dies in 1876. It is a possibility that Finlay and Catherine had more children on arriving in Aus, as I also know of another daughter, Christina Chivers (nee McDonald) who married the year after Catherine's death. This may also be the case with Francis as he wasn't with the family when they came to Aus in 1839 I would like to know where they are all buried.
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Also, I have been told that Finlay and Catherine were buried in a roadside grave, possibly the reason why I cannot find mention of their burial anywhere. Further, I can't find a newspaper article that mentions either their death or their burial.
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The John MCDONALD on the 1870 ER as freehold at Rouchel ... Have you checked out how/when/from whom he acquired that land? If inherited, from whom and when etc may give clues re his parents :)
NB NSW BDM death certificates include details of burial (or cremation) and have done so since civil registration commenced in 1856. I would expect a roadside burial to be noted on the dc. BUT ... if there was a coroner's enquiry, in the second half of the 19th C it is possible that the burial order was not followed up with a formal registration of the death, particularly if in rural NSW where due to sparse population, it may be several years between inquests and not everyone remembered the formal paperwork processes.
JM
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EBrand, do you know anything about Margaret, Nancy and Ferchan?
Jamjar
Unfortunately, I don't. I'd love to find out more. I can't find anything in the NSW BDMs. Also tried Trove for all three. Couldn't find anything. Also tried Ferchan as Farquhar, again nothing.
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An obit to Jane in 1897
Ros
adding link ;D http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article122735736
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Also, I have been told that Finlay and Catherine were buried in a roadside grave, possibly the reason why I cannot find mention of their burial anywhere. Further, I can't find a newspaper article that mentions either their death or their burial.
.... I do know the supposed death dates for Finlay and Catherine, and that is the 29th of Nov 1866 and the 19th of November 1868. ...
...
NB NSW BDM death certificates include details of burial (or cremation) and have done so since civil registration commenced in 1856. I would expect a roadside burial to be noted on the dc. BUT ... if there was a coroner's enquiry, in the second half of the 19th C it is possible that the burial order was not followed up with a formal registration of the death, particularly if in rural NSW where due to sparse population, it may be several years between inquests and not everyone remembered the formal paperwork processes.
Hi,
Using the “Date of Event” option at NSW BDM online index, I can find that index has the following for 17 – 18 -19 November 1868.
Registered Scone district:
Female MCDONALD (and as Macdonald), parents as William and Ann #6518
Registered Maitland district
Catherine MCDONALD, (and as Macdonald) father as John, died Maitland #4874
Registered Sydney district
Catherine McDONALD, (and as Macdonald) parents as James and Bedelia #464
Using same option re dates (Nov 1866 etc)
Finley MCDONALD (and as Macdonald), aged 70 years, died Scone, registered Scone #6568.
I would expect that these official records (or official transcriptions of them) would include details of their burials.
JM
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Hopefully John's probate packet will contain his death certificate with details of his burial.
Funeral notice for Christina CHIVERS http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16596454 Waverley Cemetery
Funeral notice for her husband http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article28070698 also at Waverley
Ros
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Hopefully John's probate packet will contain his death certificate with details of his burial.
...
Oh, He is likely at Dangarfield, http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=5908740#images
http://austcemindex.com/cemetery?cemid=578
ADD
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=5908741#images
Jane McDonald, nee Cameron, born on a voyage from Scotland 9th June 1837, died at Scone, 31st July 1897.
JM
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Hi
There is a Probate for a Finlay Mcdonald 29 11 1866 Stonefield, Davis Creek
Muss
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Yes I have this one on my list Muss :) Hopefully this one will contain Finlay's death cert and burial details :)
And thanks for the info that Jane McDonald died 1897 also probably has a probate file. :) I will photograph this too.
Ros
adding : there is a probate file for a Catherine McDONALD who died the same year as our lady but it is the wrong date and the wrong lady.
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I found some deaths of Farquhar McDonald which didn't seem to match. Just tried Fear* without success too.
Ros,
Did you try searching 'Fer' as the gaelic pronunciation is actually Feracher.
Yes Annie I tried Fer* and Far* in the NSW BDM. I haven't checked other states.
I didn't know that was the Gaelic pronunciation - that's interesting.
Ros
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A NSW baptism for a child born in NSW for Finley and Catherine ... :D
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCJ-1BX
Francis, born 13 July 1844 to Finley and Catherine MCDONALD, baptised 22 September 1844, at Scone.
NSW BDM online INDEX has this as Volume 28, line 2821. I am sure Volume 28 is Church of England. It is likely that the ceremony was initially registered in St Luke's parish registers. :)
http://www.sconeanglicanchurch.org.au/
JM
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Hi
Address on Probate Index of John McDonald 21 2 1876 Mt Vernon, Rouchel Brook
Muss
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Finlay and Catherine MCDONALD's burial information:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVB6-LHKB
JM
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Following on from Muss's clue about the address for John McDonald .... Clearance sale for the late John McDONALD "Mt Vernon", Rouchel Brook in 1940! Possibly a son.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158978482
NSW BDM death
1940 John Alexander McDONALD, father John, mother Jane at Musswell Brook reg 6974/1940
Obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158978364 and a longer obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article107534598 which gives his siblings and more info.
Do you know about his siblings EB?
adding :"one brother and three sisters now survive, namely, Mr.Frank McDonald ("Bon Accord," Upper Rouchel) and Mesdamcs A. R.Brooks (Baerami); M. S. Armstrong(Upper Rouchel), and T. Page (Tamworth)"
Ros
adding : Interesting snippet about the McDonald's of Rouchel Brook rescuing the Singer sewing machine rep and a boy from drowning at McDonald's crossing when their trap overturned in 1899.
Heading : A Perilous Adventure http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article126336805
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Following on from Muss's clue about the address for John McDonald .... Clearance sale for the late John McDONALD "Mt Vernon", Rouchel Brook in 1940! Possibly a son.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158978482
NSW BDM death
1940 John Alexander McDONALD, father John, mother Jane at Musswell Brook reg 6974/1940
Obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158978364 and a longer obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article107534598 which gives his siblings and more info.
Do you know about his siblings EB?
adding :"one brother and three sisters now survive, namely, Mr.Frank McDonald ("Bon Accord," Upper Rouchel) and Mesdamcs A. R.Brooks (Baerami); M. S. Armstrong(Upper Rouchel), and T. Page (Tamworth)"
Ros
adding : Interesting snippet about the McDonald's of Rouchel Brook rescuing the Singer sewing machine rep and a boy from drowning at McDonald's crossing when their trap overturned in 1899.
Heading : A Perilous Adventure http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article126336805
Thanks for these! The only issue that I had previously known about for John McDonald and Jane Cameron was a daughter Catherine, who married William George McMullin. I had no clue about the others!
And how interesting is that little snippet of the McDonalds? I found it quite heartwarming.
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Just a new bit of information that I have come across. I have not seen Finlay/Findlay's death certificate, however someone who is a relative of mine has said that the informant (I believe) was his son, Ferchan. However, he refers to himself as Frank. This may be my next clue in finding more information on Ferchan!
Also, I have seen someone on Rootsweb refer to Finlay as Francis Finlay, but this may just be an error on their behalf.
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There was a Francis Finlay McDonald with wife Dorothy, at Rouchel Brook.
You'll find their children buried at RB Cemetery: http://austcemindex.com/?cemid=579
Jamjar
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I have not seen Finlay/Findlay's death certificate, however someone who is a relative of mine has said that the informant (I believe) was his son, Ferchan. However, he refers to himself as Frank.
Are you able to find out whether Ferchan signed the DC as Frank & does it actually say 'Son' or is this an assumption?
The more positive info. the better.
Were all the children definitely listed as 'their' sons/daughters on immigration?
Just a thought with lack of info. on some as some may have been related in another way?
Annie
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Hi
Francis Finlay McDonald is buried In Aberdeen Cemetery 03/05/1958 age 90
there is also a Dorothy in the same grave 13/06/1928 age 33
Muss
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Obit to Mrs F F McDonald June 1928
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158011782
Ros
Adding
Nsw BDM
1928 death
Dorothy McDonald, father Charles G , mother Agnes A at Muswellbrook Brook, reg 7468/1928
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Probate for Francis Finlay McDonald https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/978773
Adding to list :)
Ros
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Hi
Probate for Francis McDonald - Aberdeen 15/02/1984 son of Francis Finlay and Dororthy
Muss
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Wow one of the few 1980's probates at NSW SRO! Thanks Muss
Adding to list :)
Sorry away from home and pc currently - will follow up with some death notices from this and earlier posts tomorrow (if no one else does)
Ros
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"arrived from Scotland on the "Heber" on the 27th of July, 1839
These ancestors were Findlay (Finlay possibly) and Catherine McDonald, aged 40
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](b c1803)[/color] respectively. They had children at the time of travel;
Ferchan (18),
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]b c1821[/color]
John (15),
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]b c1824[/color]
Nancy (16),
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]b c1823[/color]
Margaret (14)
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]b c1825[/color]
Catherine (8 )[/color]"
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]b c1831[/color]
"I do know the supposed death dates for Finlay and Catherine, and that is the 29th of Nov 1866 and the 19th of November 1868"
Francis Finlay McDonald is buried In Aberdeen Cemetery 03/05/1958 age 90
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]b c1868[/color]
a Dorothy in the same grave 13/06/1928 age 33[/color]
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]b c1895[/color]
Seems a lot of differences in years?
Annie
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He's not the missing Ferchan, nor the possible second Francis born to them.
He could be the son of John and therefore grandson of Finlay and Catherine.
14523/1958 Francis Finlay McDonald parents JOHN JANE MUSWELLBROOK
Added: An online tree has the missing Ferchan's death in 1889 age 68. I can't find a record of it.
Jamjar
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Ahh I see now Jamjar,
Was trying to work out the generation gap, so.....
Son John (15) b c1824
Francis Finlay McDonald buried 1958 age 90 b c1868 (may be the son of John)?
Annie
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Yes, a possibility, Annie. ;D
Jamjar
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Photo of headstone: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kap/
Hi
Francis Finlay McDonald is buried In Aberdeen Cemetery 03/05/1958 age 90
there is also a Dorothy in the same grave 13/06/1928 age 33
Muss
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Annie, is Nancy a pet name, in Scotland?
I can't find her in NSW either.
Jamjar
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Annie, is Nancy a pet name, in Scotland?
I can't find her in NSW either.
Jamjar
Good thinking. I hadn't even thought of that. A quick google search told me that the name was originally a derivative for Ann(e).
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Agnes/Nancy are interchangeable & may at times be Nan/Ann ::)
Annie
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Thanks Annie. :)
Jamjar
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Ahh I see now Jamjar,
Was trying to work out the generation gap, so.....
Son John (15) b c1824
Francis Finlay McDonald buried 1958 age 90 b c1868 (may be the son of John)?
Annie
Yes definitely Annie.
John jun was a son of John and Jane and his obit saying that family came from Inverness in 1837 etc made it clear he was correct person from correct family. His obit also said he had a brother Frank on a property "Bon Accord". And the obit I posted for Mrs f f McDonald said she was from the property Bon Accord.
ros
Adding : memoriam from Frank of "Bon Accord" to his wife who died 30 June 1928 https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/978773
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Just looking at the ages of the children on immigration....
There's a wee bit of a gap between Margaret (14) b c1825 & Catherine (8 ) b c1831....
Just a thought...
Is it possible this may have been a 2nd marriage?
Is there any reference to Catherine being John's mother?
Does anyone know the religion of the family?
Annie
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Just looking at the ages of the children on immigration....
There's a wee bit of a gap between Margaret (14) b c1825 & Catherine (8 ) b c1831....
Just a thought...
Is it possible this may have been a 2nd marriage?
Is there any reference to Catherine being John's mother?
Does anyone know the religion of the family?
Annie
Protestant, according to the microfiche that the NSW Archives has produced. Not sure of any further denomination though. According to the findmypast.co records, Finlay married Catherine/Katharine in 1819, the same year that Farquhar (Ferchan) was christened. It lists Ferchan's father as Finlay, so this is most likely still only one marriage. Apparently they had a child after they arrived in Australia as well, so not sure that the age gap means too much. :)
It mentions in one of John's obits of 1908 that he was "one of several brothers who arrived in New South Wales nearly 70 years ago with their parents from Inverness shire, Scotland."
It is probably safe to assume that Catherine was his mother.
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Hi
Death of a Mary McNeven 12207/1914 father Finlay mother Catherine Armidale
There is also a Probate date of death 04/08/1914
Muss
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From NSW State Archives online indexes, and their free to search digitised passenger list:
A chap named Farquhar McDONALD, a shepherd of Inverness, and wife Mary of Inverness, arrived as assisted immigrants on the St Helena in 1854. Farquhar was aged 21 and Mary was aged 25.
Here’s the link to the passenger list images, scroll through to December 1854. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/assisted-immigrants-digital-shipping-lists
JM
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JM,
He can't be Ferchan as he arrived 1839 aged 18 i.e. b c1821
This Farquhar aged 21 in 1854 would be born c1833
Annie
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Agree Annie, but that's one more Farquhar McDONALD in NSW at same time as our OPs chap, and we need to consider that as we progress the quest. I think some official transcriptions of NSW BDM events may be needed to help sort, particularly for the couple our OP asked about in the Opening Post, as I continue to wonder if the info I have posted re the likely sightings is actually relevant.
Finlay and Catherine MCDONALD's burial information:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVB6-LHKB
and
Also, I have been told that Finlay and Catherine were buried in a roadside grave, possibly the reason why I cannot find mention of their burial anywhere. Further, I can't find a newspaper article that mentions either their death or their burial.
.... I do know the supposed death dates for Finlay and Catherine, and that is the 29th of Nov 1866 and the 19th of November 1868. ...
...
NB NSW BDM death certificates include details of burial (or cremation) and have done so since civil registration commenced in 1856. I would expect a roadside burial to be noted on the dc. BUT ... if there was a coroner's enquiry, in the second half of the 19th C it is possible that the burial order was not followed up with a formal registration of the death, particularly if in rural NSW where due to sparse population, it may be several years between inquests and not everyone remembered the formal paperwork processes.
Hi,
Using the “Date of Event” option at NSW BDM online index, I can find that index has the following for 17 – 18 -19 November 1868.
Registered Scone district:
Female MCDONALD (and as Macdonald), parents as William and Ann #6518
Registered Maitland district
Catherine MCDONALD, (and as Macdonald) father as John, died Maitland #4874
Registered Sydney district
Catherine McDONALD, (and as Macdonald) parents as James and Bedelia #464
Using same option re dates (Nov 1866 etc)
Finley MCDONALD (and as Macdonald), aged 70 years, died Scone, registered Scone #6568.
I would expect that these official records (or official transcriptions of them) would include details of their burials.
JM
-
An online tree has Mary as marrying Donald in 1846 at age 16. It also states that she was one of 8 children.
Jamjar
Hi
Death of a Mary McNeven 12207/1914 father Finlay mother Catherine Armidale
There is also a Probate date of death 04/08/1914
Muss
-
Catherine's maiden name was MacDonald too!
MCDONALD FINLAY KATHARINE MCDONALD Ref: FR347
04/12/1819
100/10 571
Kilmorack
Annie
-
Yes,
And the Nancy McDONALD who arrived on the Heber in July 1839 was from Ayreshire and she could read and write. I wonder if she was a twin to Farquhar also on that voyage, as it is possible to decipher their respective ages as 18.
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4784/Heber_27 Jul 1839/small/4_478400134.jpg&No=1
Nancy is on page 9
Farquhar is on page 8
and the family is on page 7
JM
-
Nancy McDONALD who arrived on the Heber in July 1839 was from Ayreshire and she could read and write. I wonder if she was a twin to Farquhar also on that voyage, as it is possible to decipher their respective ages as 18.
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4784/Heber_27 Jul 1839/small/4_478400134.jpg&No=1
Nancy is on page 9
Farquhar is on page 8
and the family is on page 7
Thanks JM,
You have answered part of my question from Reply #40
I agree with the new find..
"Farquhar McDONALD, a shepherd of Inverness, and wife Mary of Inverness, arrived as assisted immigrants on the St Helena in 1854. Farquhar was aged 21 and Mary was aged 25"
Likely related (cousins) from the same area as the family?
Ayrshire is a very long, long way from Inverness i.e. is it just a coincidence?
Annie
-
NSW ER 1878 UPPER HUNTER
In the Cassilis Police District
Farquhar MCDONALD freehold at Wappinguy
William Peter MCDONALD, freehold at Wappinguy
JM
-
NSW ER 1902/3 HUNTER, polling at Aberdeen
MCDONALD as the surname
Catherine, of Aberdeen, domestic duties
Francis, of Rouchel, grazier
John Alexander of Rouchel, grazier
Mary Ann, of Rouchel, domestic duties
Michael of Aberdeen, butcher.
JM
-
NSW ER 1902/3 ROBERTSON, polling at Merriwa
MCDONALD as the surname
Alexander, of Merriwa, labourer
Annie Clara, of Merriwa, domestic duties
Catherine of Bonacord, domestic duties
Catherine Mary, of Merrivale, domestic duties
Charles Farquhar Ernest, of Garland, Merriwa, labourer
Farquhar, of Bonacord, grazier
John Angus of Garland, selector
Kathleen Ann, of Bonacord, domestic duties.
See the probate notice http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14411110 SMH 21 Sept 1901
JM
-
I was just looking at this too JM. But his death has parents Margaret and William
1901 Death Farquhar J McDONALD, father William, mother Margaret, at Muswellbrook reg 10255/1901
Ros
-
Yes, but all helpers need to be aware that there's possibly several MCDONALD chaps in that Upper Hunter area whose given names include Farquhar. It is possible they are of different generations, or cousins, or simply not related, but in order to help confirm or eliminate various sightings, I think that our OP needs to have as much detailed info as possible.
Some official transcriptions of NSW BDM records would likely be quite useful.
JM
-
I came across this marriage notice for the daughter of Mrs K McDonald and the late Farquhar McDonald of Bon Accorde in Merriwa in 1933 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article107577701
And from there found a death in 1930 at Merriwa
1930 Death
Farquhar F McDONALD father Farqhuar J , mother Mary at Meriwa.
I wondered if the man who died in 1930 might be the son of the missing Farquhar so went looking backwards from there and came to same probate notice as you.
Ros
adding : it's just interesting when we approach from different angles and converge ...
-
Greville PO Directory 1875
MERRIWA
Farquhar MCDONALD, selector, Merrivale.
ABERDEEN
Donald MCDONALD, squatter, Segenhoe
John MCDONALD, farmer, Rouchell
'Selector' should be the first title holder when searching through the lpi parish maps. http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/land_titles/historical_research/parish_maps
JM
-
10 May 1887
Marriage of Thomas MCDONALD at St Marys RC, St Kilda, Victoria. He was second son of Farquhar MCDONALD of Merrivale near Merriwa.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18890400 Maitland Mercury 11 June 1887.
27 Sept 1910
Marriage of Alexander MCDONALD, at St Marys Cathedral, (which I would expect is the RC cathedral in Sydney, and the NSW BDM ref #7613) fifth son of late Farquhar McDONALD of Merriwa
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15199641 SMH 28 Oct 1910.
JM
-
NSW ER 1870 PATRICKS PLAINS
Alexander MCDONALD, residence, Davis Creek
(I am fairly sure that Davis Creek and Rouchell Brook share the same catchment)
JM
-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107703519
Muswellbrook Chronicle 4 Mar1903.
Mary, fifth daughter of late John MCDONALD marries Albert Richard BROOKS
… mentions sibling and niece.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107533975 Muswellbrook Chronicle 26 Apr 1940
Obit for bachelor, John Alexander MCDONALD of Mt Vernon and Glen Ayr. Aged 75 years. Siblings mentions, including Mrs M A BROOKS.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158998739 Scone Advocate 10 Nov 1936
Obit Mrs McPHEE, 78years, a native of Rouchel, her parents settled there ‘just on a century since’ … many names of family members mentioned.
JM
-
I think I have typed up all my jottings from the weekend searchings.
Another marriage August 1894
Margaret S MCDONALD, youngest daughter of Mrs John MCDONALD of Rouchel
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/124727889 Maitland Mercury 13 Aug 1894
Probate
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/156266002 Scone Adv. 16 Dec 1898
Land
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/161601747 Scone Advocate 27 Oct 1888
Conditional leases granted Francis Finlay MCDONALD, Rouchel, 100 acres, 3 ½ d and Jane MACDONALD, Rouchel 240 acres, 3 ½ d
Sands 1897 Pastoral directory of NSW and in the 1900 directory too
Jane MCDONALD, of Rouchel, in the Murrundi Stock District.
Sands 1903 Pastoral directory
MURRUNDI STOCK DISTRICT
J A McDONALD, Glendyne, Rouchel 11 horses, 150 cattle 595 sheep.
Sands 1905 Pastoral
J A McDONALD, Rouchel 4 horses, 100 cattle, no sheep.
City of Sydney Archives have the free to search Sands directories. :)
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
ADD My apologies if I am duplicating others sightings.
JM
-
Hi all.
A few of you are asking for more detailed descriptions, I don't have much but in this post I will type out what I do know. (These are quoted from documents I have received)
From the NSW Archives I have:
"Findlay and Catherine MacDonald arrived in Sydney on the 27th of July 1839 aboard the "Heber"."
"Findlay MacDonald, native of Inverness-shire; son of Ferchan MacDonald, labourer, of the same place, and of Mary McIlwraith; shepherd (calling", age given as 40."
"Catherine MacDonald, native of Inverness-shire; daughter of Alex McDonald, labourer, of the same place, house servant (calling); 36 (age)."
"Sons: Ferchan (18), John (15)
Daughters: Nancy (16), Margaret (14) and Catherine (8 )."
From the next source I have:
Finlay McDonald
b. 1796 Scotland
d. 29.11.1866 Rouchel aged 70
arrived NSW 27.7.1839
Catherine McDonald
b.1809 Scotland
d. 19.11.1868 aged 59 years
The only children this chart mentions is Catherine McDonald, born in Beauly, Scotland in 1832, who married Donald William McLean at Stewart's Brook on the 13th of December 1855, and who died at Inverell on the 14th of October 1907. It also lists their 7 children; Hector Neil, Dugald John, Francis John, William Pender, Neil Finlay, Susan Catherine and Archibald Alexander, all of the surname McLean.
The other child of Finlay and Catherine that the chart I have mentions is John McDonald, born in 1824 and died at Rouchel in 1876. He married Jane Cameron, daughter of Alexander and Lucy, at Stewart's Brook in 1856. In the chart it states that there is other issue known of John and Jane, however it only mentions one Catherine McDonald who married William George McMullin, son of John McMullin and Mary Gardner.
A final source that I have is an email from someone who I am not in contact with, but who has done some research on the McDonald side. He says that someone "told me where to locate the roadside grave of Catherine McDonald's parents." (being Findlay and Catherine) He also said that"there was mention that it was believed Findlay put his age down due to an age limit on Bounty Immigrants. Also, the family went to Kayuga (from memory), but must have been at Ellerston later."
I'm not sure if that is going to help with anything, but I guess it's better to be detailed.
:)
-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107703519
Muswellbrook Chronicle 4 Mar1903.
Mary, fifth daughter of late John MCDONALD marries Albert Richard BROOKS
… mentions sibling and niece.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107533975 Muswellbrook Chronicle 26 Apr 1940
Obit for bachelor, John Alexander MCDONALD of Mt Vernon and Glen Ayr. Aged 75 years. Siblings mentions, including Mrs M A BROOKS.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158998739 Scone Advocate 10 Nov 1936
Obit Mrs McPHEE, 78years, a native of Rouchel, her parents settled there ‘just on a century since’ … many names of family members mentioned.
JM
Also quickly just wanted to say thank you to everyone for all of your help!
I have this obituary, found at this link:http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/31387646?searchTerm=%22john%20mcdonald%22&searchLimits=dateFrom=1839-01-01|||dateTo=1910-12-31|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales
It states that " MR. JOHN MCDONALD
DECEASED.
YESTERDAY morning at about 10 o'clock,
at his residence, Urayarra, after about
six months of illness from complications
arising from weakness of heart and
dropsical swelling, Mr. John McDonald,
whose name has been associated with
the far-famed Urayarra station proper-
ties, breathed his last. He was one of
the oldest, most enterprising, and best-
known men of the trans-Murrumbidgee
portion of the Queanbeyan district; and
one of several brothers who arrived in
New South Wales nearly 70 years ago
with their parents from Inverness
shire, Scotland. The deceased gentle
man had reached the ripe old age of 79
years, and leaves a widow and several
sons and daughters. Two of his sons,
A. J. and M. M. McDonald, have for
some few years past-taken over the
Urayarra property ; while another son,
William, owns the neighbouring estate
of Mountain View; and another, John
A. McDonald, is engaged in the wool
trade. The funeral takes place to-
morrow at Canberra, at 3 p.m.
The Sandy,Creek Estate, in the
Wagga district which has been sub-
divided for closer settlement, was
offered at auction on Tuesday. Eleven
blocks, aggregating 6713 acres, were
sold, realising £34,255, an average of
about £5 2s an acre."
However, this is in 1908, when supposedly his death in the chart I have is 1868. It mentions his sons as a William, a John A. (possibly the John Alexander we have been talking about), an A. J and an M.M. It also mentions him coming over from Inverness with his parents almost 70 years ago, which doing the math (1908-1939) is 69 years. It also mentions him being around 79 years, which means he would have been 10 on arrival in Aus.
This is probably just a massive coincidence but it has made me double check a few times.
-
Following on from Muss's clue about the address for John McDonald .... Clearance sale for the late John McDONALD "Mt Vernon", Rouchel Brook in 1940! Possibly a son.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158978482
NSW BDM death
1940 John Alexander McDONALD, father John, mother Jane at Musswell Brook reg 6974/1940
Obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158978364 and a longer obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article107534598 which gives his siblings and more info.
Do you know about his siblings EB?
adding :"one brother and three sisters now survive, namely, Mr.Frank McDonald ("Bon Accord," Upper Rouchel) and Mesdamcs A. R.Brooks (Baerami); M. S. Armstrong(Upper Rouchel), and T. Page (Tamworth)"
Ros
adding : Interesting snippet about the McDonald's of Rouchel Brook rescuing the Singer sewing machine rep and a boy from drowning at McDonald's crossing when their trap overturned in 1899.
Heading : A Perilous Adventure http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article126336805
In reply to #Reply 36, I do now know of the other children belonging to Jane and John.
In no particular order, from the pieces of evidence gathered it is assumed that the children are;
Francis Finlay McDonald, d.1958 m. Dorothy
Margaret S, m. William? Armstrong
John Alexander d.1940 (bachelor)
Mary, m. Albert Brooks
Catherine, m. William George McMullin
and possibly Marian, m. John Ebbs
as well as a Miss J McDonald, who married Thomas Page of Tamworth.
Addition: Miss J McDonald is found to be Jane (which was probably predictable enough). This was found through the obits of Thomas and Jane Page.
-
An online tree has Mary as marrying Donald in 1846 at age 16. It also states that she was one of 8 children.
Jamjar
Hi
Death of a Mary McNeven 12207/1914 father Finlay mother Catherine Armidale
There is also a Probate date of death 04/08/1914
Muss
I do not know how reliable this is, as I do not have a MyHeritage subscription (will be working on getting one, though), but this is the info I have pulled from a quick search. Perhaps there may be something here? It mentions Mary McNeven and also another sibling that I had not seen before, Alexander McDonald.
Ferchan (Francis) Jnr. McDonald, 1821 - 1889
Ferchan (Francis) Jnr. McDonald was born in 1821, to Finlay McDonald and Catherine McDonald (born Fraser).
Finlay was born in 1796, in Inverness, Scotland.
Catherine was born in 1803, in Inverness, Scotland.
Ferchan had 7 siblings: Mary A. McNeven (born McDonald), Alexander McDonald and 5 other siblings.
Ferchan passed away of cause of death on month day 1889, at age 68 at death place.
He was buried at burial place.
Ferchan (Francis) Jnr. McDonald, 1821 - 1889
Ferchan (Francis) Jnr. McDonald was born in 1821, to Finlay McDonald and Catherine McDonald (born Fraser).
Finlay was born in 1796, in Inverness, Scotland.
Catherine was born in 1803, in Inverness, Scotland.
Ferchan had 5 siblings: Alexander McDonald, Margaret McDonald and 3 other siblings.
Ferchan passed away of cause of death on month day 1889, at age 68 at death place.
He was buried at burial place.
-
The sibling M.S. Armstrong in above post is
Death NSW BDM
1943 ARMSTRONG Margaret Sarah, father John, mother Jane at Muswellbrook
Obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article161117656 and http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article161123589
and http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article107701516
Marriage 1894
Margaret T[sic] McDonald to Wyndham F ARMSTRONG at Scone reg 6449
wedding http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article124724227
Ros
adding : probate https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/656877
-
Cont ...
I haven't found a death for Wyndham Francis ARMSTRONG yet ... (searched NSW and Qld)
Death of a daughter Mrs Reg JACKSON in 1940
Obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158980911 says she was born in Queensland
NSW 1940 death
Kathleen JACKSON father Wyndham Francis, mother Margaret Sarah at Singleton reg 22959
QLD Birth
1899 Kathleen ARMSTRONG, father Wyndham Francis, mother Margaret Sarah McDONALD
Death 1981
John Octavius ARMSTRONG father Wyndham, mother Margaret
Ros
adding : engagement of other son Wyndham Eric ARMSTRONG http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article214503154
Death Qld
1979 Wyndham Eric ARMSTRONG, father Wyndham Francis ARMSTRONG, mother Margaret Sarah McDONALD reg B96667
There are a couple of files on naa.gov.au which have not been digitised for him, service number 35582, 1919
Also one for
ARMSTRONG John Octavius , Service Number - N447754, DOB 09 Jul 1896 , Aberdeen NSW , enlisted Upper Rouchel NSW, NOK Margaret ARMSTRONG
-
Sibling Mary BROOKS ... (sibling of John Alexander McDONALD bachelor)
Death NSW 1952 Mary Ann BROOKS, father John, mother Jane at Muswellbrook
Obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article107818506
Albert Richard BROOKS service record https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=3129971
Ros
adding : their wedding http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article156363297
Her probate https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/816388
-
I do not know how reliable this is, as I do not have a MyHeritage subscription (will be working on getting one, though), but this is the info I have pulled from a quick search. Perhaps there may be something here? It mentions Mary McNeven and also another sibling that I had not seen before, Alexander McDonald.
Ferchan (Francis) Jnr. McDonald, 1821 - 1889
Ferchan (Francis) Jnr. McDonald was born in 1821, to Finlay McDonald and Catherine McDonald (born Fraser).
Finlay was born in 1796, in Inverness, Scotland.
Catherine was born in 1803, in Inverness, Scotland.
Ferchan had 7 siblings: Mary A. McNeven (born McDonald), Alexander McDonald and 5 other siblings.
Ferchan passed away 1889, at age 68 at death place.
If My Heritage is the same as online trees on Ancestry, FS (Family Search), F M P (FindMyPast), TP (Tribal Pages) or any other of similar then 'reliable' not unless there's documentary evidence/references/citations to doc. evidence which you can check yourself as they are all trees of individuals i.e. not sources.
There are 4 marriages on SP (scotlandspeople) one of which I posted earlier on this thread....
MCDONALD FINLAY & CATHARINE RAE 01/07/1814
098/80 298 Inverness
MCDONALD FINLAY & KATHARINE MCDONALD (FR347) 04/12/1819
100/10 571 Kilmorack (Posted earlier)
MACDONALD FINLAY & CATHARIN MCLEOD/ 03/06/1828
098/100 256 Inverness
MCDONALD FINLAY & CATHRINE FRASER (FR500) 15/03/1832
107/30 107 Urquhart and Glenmoriston
(Can be ruled out as they were having children after 1839 (Heber) journey)
I can't see any baptisms for the other 3 couples in Inverness-shire.
Annie
-
Aha...
Took the mother's name out of the search option i.e. no mother's name on Index...
MCDONALD FARQUHAR (Child)
FINDLAY MCDONALD (Father)
17/07/1819 ( Born prior to marriage)
100/10 640
Kilmorack
Will check for others.
Annie
-
Ferchan (Francis) Jnr. McDonald, 1821 - 1889
Ferchan (Francis) Jnr. McDonald was born in 1821, to Finlay McDonald and Catherine McDonald (born Fraser).
Ferchan had 7 siblings: Mary A. McNeven (born McDonald), Alexander McDonald and 5 other siblings.
Ferchan passed away 1889, at age 68 at death place.
So far...
MCDONALD FARQUHAR (No mother on Index)
FINDLAY MCDONALD (Father)
17/07/1819 (Born prior to marriage)
100/10 640
Kilmorack
MCDONALD ANNE (No mother on Index)
FINDLAY MCDONALD/
01/07/1821
100/10 643 Kilmorack
MCDONALD JOHN (No mother on Index)
FINDLAW (sic) MCDONALD 15/06/1823
100/10 645 Kilmorack
Annie
-
Hi there,
I am repeating information from Jamjar (at reply #1) and myself several times since, but may I please suggest that you give serious consideration to actually obtaining official transcriptions of NSW BDM records. In particular, the death certificate for the 1866 death of a Finley MCDONALD, aged 70 years, died Scone, registered Scone. #6568/1866 . It will cost you about $20.00 Au and can be sent direct to you as a pdf attachment to an email.
Death: 6568/1866 Finley (sic) McDonald AGE 70 YEARS DIED SCONE SCONE
...
NSW BDM death registrations are quite detailed, and include burial information. Several times in this thread you mention you seek confirmation about the roadside graves for Finlay and Catherine. The NSW BDM death certificate information for "Finley" should give you confirmation of where he was buried, and it is likely that Catherine is buried alongside as per other sourced information I have posted on this thread.
Here's the NSW BDM website with info about their Official Transcription Agents:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
Here's the RChat thread re Official Transcriptions of NSW BDM records:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
I am suggesting official transcriptions for several reasons:
a) official records being transcribed by experienced independent NSW based people, so NOT submitted factoidal material 'airbrushed' to suit their audience
b) cheaper than the 'real deal' certificate which is an image of a document written in 19th century longhand by various clerks
c) Official transcriptions are recognised as providing valid official information by family history groups, professional genealogists and similar organisations and individuals (including regulars at RChat's Australia Board)
d) Info on NSW BDM INDEXES points to reference numbers on the official records. Here's the NSW BDM blurb on what to expect on a NSW death cert (and of course on its official transcription):
Full name, sex, age, date & place of death, place of residence, occupation and marital status.
Place of marriage, age when married, full name of spouse. Children's name and ages. Parents' names and mother's maiden name.
Cause of death and duration of last illness. Burial or cremation date and place.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/registry-records.aspx
JM
-
I am going to photograph Finlay McDonald's probate which *should* have his death cert. It may be a week or two until I can get there but hopefully EB can wait and see whether it is there or not and what other info is there before deciding whether to order a transcript.
Ros
(I'll try to get there earlier but ...)
[edited to clarify hopefully :) ]
-
Another thought (which has just come back to me)......
It has been known for the name Finlay/Findlay to become PHILIP across the Atlantic.
Annie
-
Meanwhile......
I have downloaded the Baptism for Farquhar McDonald 17 Jul 1819 in Kilmorack, Inverness-shire, Scotland.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=773980.new#new
Just waiting for replies as I think I know what it 'should' read! :-\
I am puzzled though as to why the mother's name is missing (not very helpful) ::)
It does not mention 'illegitimate' i.e. it does not look as though he was the son of Catherine (m/s MacDonald) who married 'a' Finlay/Findlay M(a)cDonald later in the year 1819 ???
EDIT.....To include;
This marriage;
MCDONALD FINLAY & KATHARINE MCDONALD (FR347) 04/12/1819
100/10 571 Kilmorack (Posted earlier)
Variants of spelling to be expected for the period.
Annie
-
Meanwhile......
I have downloaded the Baptism for Farquhar McDonald 17 Jul 1819 in Kilmorack, Inverness-shire, Scotland.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=773980.new#new
Just waiting for replies as I think I know what it 'should' read! :-\
I am puzzled though as to why the mother's name is missing (not very helpful) ::)
It does not mention 'illegitimate' i.e. it does not look as though he was the son of Catherine (m/s MacDonald) who married 'a' Finlay/Findlay M(a)cDonald later in the year 1819 ???
EDIT.....To include;
This marriage;
MCDONALD FINLAY & KATHARINE MCDONALD (FR347) 04/12/1819
100/10 571 Kilmorack (Posted earlier)
Variants of spelling to be expected for the period.
Annie
Thanks for that! And from reading the other post, Muilie (or Muille) looks like it is written on the page. (I'm no expert, though). Also, I have a source that mentions a daughter, Catherine, was born in Beauly, so not sure if this bears any resemblance or is anywhere near where 'Muilie' was.
EDIT: Just from doing some searching, I found that many of the places mentioned; Glen Strathfarrar, the Lochs etc, are in Beauly.
-
From another Poster (on link below), 'an' Anne was Bapt. same place, father a Shepherd but again no mother's name.
Map links now added here;
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=773980.msg6272908#msg6272908
Annie
-
From another Poster (on link below), 'an' Anne was Bapt. same place, father a Shepherd but again no mother's name.
Map links now added here;
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=773980.msg6272908#msg6272908
Annie
It's quite possible that this Anne could be our Nancy. And only a few years apart in age too, like the document I had originally. Do any of the other records on Farquhar and Anne's baptism cert specify mothers?
-
Neither are showing the mother's name which is annoying but at this point I would definitely rule out the parents from the marriage I posted...
MCDONALD FINLAY & KATHARINE MCDONALD (FR347) 04/12/1819
We now have an occ. which is a step forward & fits well with map location.
Ooops, Yes, it would seem this would be Nancy?
Annie
-
I found this an interesting read;
https://arts.st-andrews.ac.uk/beauly/pdfs/SURVP.pdf
There are some lovely photos but pages mainly of interest would be 147/148
The places in general look fabulous!
Annie
-
TIMELINE (to keep track as I'm losing the plot....I mean the place ;D
Arrived on the "Heber" on the 27th of July, 1839
Findlay/Finlay McDonald/MacDonald aged 40 (b c1799) Occ. Shepherd (Dau Anne's bap), Possibly died 29th of Nov 1866
Catherine McDonald, aged 36 (b c1803) Possibly died 19th of November 1868
Children (at the time of travel)
Ferchan (18), b c1821 (Possible bapt. found Farquhar McDonald 17 Jul 1819 in Muilie, Kilmorack, INV) Possibly died 1889, at age 68
Nancy (16), b c1823 (Possible bapt. found Anne 01 Jul 1821 in Muilie, Kilmorack, INV)
John (15), b c1824
Margaret (14) b c1825
Catherine (8 )" b c1831
Ferchan/Farquhar possibly had 7 siblings, 2 below (My Heritage/no dates):
Mary A.
Alexander McDonald and 5 other siblings (So far 6 names i.e. 1 still elusive)?
4 marriages on SP
MCDONALD FINLAY & CATHARINE RAE 01/07/1814
098/80 298 Inverness
MCDONALD FINLAY & KATHARINE MCDONALD (FR347) 04/12/1819
100/10 571 Kilmorack
MACDONALD FINLAY & CATHARIN MCLEOD/ 03/06/1828
098/100 256 Inverness (Discounted as too late)
MCDONALD FINLAY & CATHRINE FRASER (FR500) 15/03/1832
107/30 107 Urquhart and Glenmoriston
(Can be ruled out as they were having children in Scotland after 1839 (Heber) journey)
This was the parents showing on My Heritage site.
Annie
ADDED Jamjar has pointed out that Catherine's father was Alexander McDonald which I had forgot i.e. Catherine's m/s has to be McDonald
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Annie, many thanks for the place-names, fabulous stuff. Walked through from Muir of Ord to Attadale on the west coast in my young day, took about 4/5 days, Glasgow Fair, glorious weather, nae roads, nae peeps & lost for much of the time! By the end of the journey my map was in bits-killing clegs! ;D
Skoosh.
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Annie, on the record of immigration it states that Catherine's father was Alexander McDonald.
Given the Scottish naming patterns and the appearance of the name Alexander within the family line, it is likely that her father may have been an Alexander.
Jamjar
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Unfortunately Finlay McDONALD (died 1866) probate does not have a death certificate or any useful info about his children in his will - he left everything to Catherine his wife.
I did notice from Jane McDONALD's probate 1897 that John and Jane had more daughters than we had covered.
Here is obit to Georgina McPHEE
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158854252
Ros
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Annie, on the record of immigration it states that Catherine's father was Alexander McDonald.
Of course it did Jamjar (I forgot), it's been a long thread with much info. ::) ;)
This has me baffled but thanks for the reminder!
So, back to the drawing board ???
I have edited Reply #96 to show my error!
The baptism for Farquhar 1819 doesn't show him as illegitimate yet the parents 'who fit' were married later the same year & others on that page are clearly recorded as illegitimate i.e. was it an oversight or ?
Annie (Flummoxed) ;D
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EB (from your post #78)
Death of John (Son of Finlay & Catherine)...
"However, this is in 1908, when supposedly his death in the chart I have is 1868"
Sorry if I've missed/forgot, can you tell us where you found John's death in 1868 please?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
Perhaps that was a typo ....???
I photographed the probate for John McDONALD who died 1876
NSW BDM 1876 death
John McDONALD, father Finlay, mother Catherine, at Scone reg 9930
Ros
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Annie, many thanks for the place-names, fabulous stuff. Walked through from Muir of Ord to Attadale on the west coast in my young day. By the end of the journey my map was in bits-killing clegs! ;D
Skoosh.
Skoosh..
With help from...http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=773980.0
Did you no' hae the savvy tae ken ye wid need that map one day 45 yrs later for a post on RC ??? ;D
EB....
Reply #11 on above link will be of interest to you!
Annie
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EB (from your post #78)
Death of John (Son of Finlay & Catherine)...
"However, this is in 1908, when supposedly his death in the chart I have is 1868"
Sorry if I've missed/forgot, can you tell us where you found John's death in 1868 please?
Annie
Sorry! Yes it was a typo. My mistake, I definitely meant '76.
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Annie, many thanks for the place-names, fabulous stuff. Walked through from Muir of Ord to Attadale on the west coast in my young day. By the end of the journey my map was in bits-killing clegs! ;D
Skoosh.
Skoosh..
With help from...http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=773980.0
Did you no' hae the savvy tae ken ye wid need that map one day 45 yrs later for a post on RC ??? ;D
EB....
Reply #11 on above link will be of interest to you!
Annie
Thank you! Yes I've had a quick glance at that, will take a better look on the morrow.
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Perhaps that was a typo ....???
I photographed the probate for John McDONALD who died 1876
NSW BDM 1876 death
John McDONALD, father Finlay, mother Catherine, at Scone reg 9930
Sorry Ros, didn't see a red alert!
I wonder who John was who died 1908 then?
This lot have me confused to capacity ::)
Annie
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Perhaps that was a typo ....???
I photographed the probate for John McDONALD who died 1876
NSW BDM 1876 death
John McDONALD, father Finlay, mother Catherine, at Scone reg 9930
Sorry Ros, didn't see a red alert!
I wonder who John was who died 1908 then?
This lot have me confused to capacity ::)
Annie
Annie, I don't believe the 1908 John - as in #78 - is of the same family.
15143/1908 John McDonald parents ARCHIBALD and MARGARET QUEANBEYAN
J.
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Perhaps that was a typo ....???
I photographed the probate for John McDONALD who died 1876
NSW BDM 1876 death
John McDONALD, father Finlay, mother Catherine, at Scone reg 9930
Sorry Ros, didn't see a red alert!
I wonder who John was who died 1908 then?
This lot have me confused to capacity ::)
Annie
Annie, I don't believe the 1908 John - as in #78 - is of the same family.
15143/1908 John McDonald parents ARCHIBALD and MARGARET QUEANBEYAN
J.
Sorry for not specifying, I had seen the obit for John (1908) and had gotten myself confused with my John. Probably the 1908 John is of no relation whatsoever to my McDonald side, I posted the obit earlier in a bid to help everyone else avoid confusion. Sorry for creating even more!
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Have also linked to another daughter of John and Jane- Louisa McPhee, who married Hugh McPhee. Here is her obit: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158998739?searchTerm=hugh%20mcphee&searchLimits=dateFrom=1844-01-01|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158998739?searchTerm=hugh%20mcphee&searchLimits=dateFrom=1844-01-01|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales)
Mentions the many siblings we have already covered, including Georgina McPhee.
Also have linked the obit of her husband, which doesn't provide much information : http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/161569261?searchTerm=hugh%20mcphee&searchLimits=dateFrom=1844-01-01|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/161569261?searchTerm=hugh%20mcphee&searchLimits=dateFrom=1844-01-01|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales)
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Have also linked to another daughter of John and Jane- Louisa McPhee, who married Hugh McPhee. Here is her obit: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158998739?searchTerm=hugh%20mcphee&searchLimits=dateFrom=1844-01-01|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158998739?searchTerm=hugh%20mcphee&searchLimits=dateFrom=1844-01-01|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales)
Mentions the many siblings we have already covered, including Georgina McPhee.
Also have linked the obit of her husband, which doesn't provide much information : http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/161569261?searchTerm=hugh%20mcphee&searchLimits=dateFrom=1844-01-01|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/161569261?searchTerm=hugh%20mcphee&searchLimits=dateFrom=1844-01-01|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales)
Headstone of their son. None for folks at the cemetery: http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=5836086#images
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Hi there,
I am repeating information from Jamjar (at reply #1) and myself several times since, but may I please suggest that you give serious consideration to actually obtaining official transcriptions of NSW BDM records. In particular, the death certificate for the 1866 death of a Finley MCDONALD, aged 70 years, died Scone, registered Scone. #6568/1866 . It will cost you about $20.00 Au and can be sent direct to you as a pdf attachment to an email.
Death: 6568/1866 Finley (sic) McDonald AGE 70 YEARS DIED SCONE SCONE
...
NSW BDM death registrations are quite detailed, and include burial information. Several times in this thread you mention you seek confirmation about the roadside graves for Finlay and Catherine. The NSW BDM death certificate information for "Finley" should give you confirmation of where he was buried, and it is likely that Catherine is buried alongside as per other sourced information I have posted on this thread.
....
and
Unfortunately Finlay McDONALD (died 1866) probate does not have a death certificate or any useful info about his children in his will - he left everything to Catherine his wife.
....
May I please learn if anyone has ordered the official transcription of the NSW BDM certificate first mentioned back at the first reply to this now very long thread?
JM
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Probably the 1908 John is of no relation whatsoever to my McDonald side, I posted the obit earlier in a bid to help everyone else avoid confusion. Sorry for creating even more!
No problem EB...
Us researchers have a habit of pouncing on anything which may be relevant at a later date especially where a lot of info. has been gathered from commercial sites which may be wrong/transcription errors etc.
I, like most, love an enigma in Genealogy but this one has a few conundrums although intriguing which is why we're all still here after more than 100 replies ;D
Annie
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May I please learn if anyone has ordered the official transcription of the NSW BDM certificate first mentioned back at the first reply to this now very long thread?
JM
Yes, I have ordered the full transcription for Finley's death certificate. Not sure how long it will be but I'm pretty sure the agency I went with do not work on weekends.
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Let's hope it gives you some interesting info. ???
I'm unsure how it works but will it be by email or snail mail?
Annie
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Let's hope it gives you some interesting info. ???
I'm unsure how it works but will it be by email or snail mail?
Annie
Thank you Annie! I sure hope so. It'll be by email, so will be crossing my fingers that it does help me on my search!
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Nail biting time for you then ;D
I think we are all waiting in great anticipation ;)
Annie
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Good to know the official transcript has been ordered, as if it had not, I would order it, to share here at RChat to help sort out and advance the quest. I have a number of ancestors who died in NSW in the 1860s, and none of their NSW State Archives probates include their death certs.
JM
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That's kind of you JM. I'm sure EB would appreciate it if you could order Catherine McDonald's death transcript. And I'll order Catherine McLean's transcript.
It's so refreshing to see someone so young being so interested in family history :)
Ros
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I think it would be sensible to wait until the info is available from the 1866 dc, as Catherine was still alive at that time, so she should have been involved in the naming of all the children of the marriage. The Official transcript should give details of the burial, which would be the main purpose in obtaining it.
Yes, young people can be interested in family history. My own interests date from my childhood introduction by my grandparents, when back in the 1950s when in Sydney for school holidays I was taken to The Mitchell Library (the one in Sydney NSW) to sit quietly while Gran went through some of the family papers archived there.
I am sure you know that is not unusual for RChatters to purchase BDM documents or visit archives to help advance quests. There's a mention at the following "How To" thread stickied to the Australia Board. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368728.0
JM
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Don't worry JM. ;D I'm taking advantage of the Super Saturday discount to order Catherine McDonald's death transcript now.
Annie has been using lots of her SP credits to download documents.
Ros
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I think it would be sensible to wait until the info is available from the 1866 dc, as Catherine was still alive at that time, so she should have been involved in the naming of all the children of the marriage. The Official transcript should give details of the burial, which would be the main purpose in obtaining it.
Yes, young people can be interested in family history. My own interests date from my childhood introduction by my grandparents, when back in the 1950s when in Sydney for school holidays I was taken to The Mitchell Library (the one in Sydney NSW) to sit quietly while Gran went through some of the family papers archived there.
I am sure you know that is not unusual for RChatters to purchase BDM documents or visit archives to help advance quests. There's a mention at the following "How To" thread stickied to the Australia Board. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368728.0
JM
Wow, that is really interesting JM. And I thank you for your offer to purchase the death certificate, it means a lot to me. I'm currently still a high school student so I don't have a lot of money on me- usually I try to find as much as I can without spending money but if it comes down to it, I will. That is why I am incredibly grateful to everyone who has helped me in my quest thus far, and for those who have spent money/credits/time to go to huge lengths.
EBrand.
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And thank you Ros and Annie for spending your time and money helping me!
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May I please learn if anyone has ordered the official transcription of the NSW BDM certificate first mentioned back at the first reply to this now very long thread?
JM
Yes, I have ordered the full transcription for Finley's death certificate. Not sure how long it will be but I'm pretty sure the agency I went with do not work on weekends.
May I gently ask if there’s any update on the 1866 NSW death registration – My husband and I were in Scone overnight, and so with very limited internet we struggled but managed to check this thread to see if the burial details had been posted. We were hoping to advance EBrand’s quest on our drive back to our home this morning, via Segenhoe. It would not have been out of our way to go off to on a slight detour in our ute (4wd) and we had our camera with us. It may be several months before we are back up that way. We are both sorry that we have not been able to advance this quest, and yes … I should have checked the thread before we left home and posted this request for an update at that time.
ADD
I see at least one of the official transcription agents is currently delivering orders received 16 August 2017.
JM
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A quick update (EB is understandably flat out with study at the moment).
The death transcription for Catherine McDONALD who died 1868 which I ordered was for the wrong lady. (born in Inverness, arrived at about the same time, but different husband and children).
The death transcription for Finley McDONALD who died 1866 which EB ordered was very disappointing (and took a long time).
Name Finley McDONALD
DoD 29 Nov 1866
Place Rouchel Brook, District of Scone
Occupation
Sex male
Age 70
Place of Birth Scotland
Time in Australian colonies 25 years
Father not known
Occupation not known
Mother not known
Place of marriage not known
Age at marriage not known
Spouse Catherine McDonald
Children of marriage 5 males and 3 females living
Informant Frank McDonald, son, Rouchel Brook
... skipping cause of death and illness ...
Date of Burial 30 Nov 1866
Place of Burial Rouchel Brook (Stonefield)
Undertaker Henry Smith
Witnesses Thomas Spencer, John McDonald
Ros
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I will follow up on the details re the burial as this was clearly the focus point of the question and my response asking if that dc had been ordered. May I mention that sometimes a farm name can be found on those early civil death registrations as the burial place. I don't see this document as one of disappointment, but rather one posing further questions ... which of course is what makes family history an interesting hobby.
I am fairly sure we have some early maps for Bowman's Gully up in that area dating from the 1870s or thereabouts ... I will need to get to a lower drawer in one of our map cabinets though.
Perhaps similar maps are already online via land and property information's parish maps free to search... http://images.maps.nsw.gov.au/pdf/Historical%20Parish%20Maps.pdf
Otherwise, there's always the reliable historical society and their fine local history collections. http://upperhunter.nsw.gov.au/our-services/community-directory/scone-and-upper-hunter-historical-society-inc.aspx
...
Date of Burial 30 Nov 1866
Place of Burial Rouchel Brook (Stonefield)
Undertaker Henry Smith
Witnesses Thomas Spencer, John McDonald
The Official transcript should give details of the burial, which would be the main purpose in obtaining it.
....A final source that I have is an email from someone who I am not in contact with, but who has done some research on the McDonald side. He says that someone "told me where to locate the roadside grave of Catherine McDonald's parents." (being Findlay and Catherine) ...
JM
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Original Post
... I still haven't been able to find anything about Finlay and Catherine's life either in Scotland or Australia, nor their children other than the ones I specified.
If anyone has any clues or anything that could help me find mention of this family, I would be so grateful!
Thank you!
The focus of EB's request was to find out about the life and family of Finlay and Catherine in Scotland and Australia. The roadside burial was not mentioned until reply #23
I certainly understand that it is disappointing to find so little information about the life and family of Finley (and Catherine) in Scotland and Australia in his death certificate.
Ros
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/225856596 NSW Govt Gazette 18 Dec 1866.
Stonefield
In the will of Finlay McDonald, late of Stonefield, Davis’s Creek, in the colony of NSW, deceased… probate of the will …. Granted to Catherine McDonald, Executrix named in the said will ….
As I mentioned in my post #125 it is likely that Stonefield was the THEN farm name of the rural property where Finlay and Catherine McDonald had established their home and workplace. I continue to note that I do not find it disappointing that the NSW dc for Finlay includes that his burial was recorded as Rouchel (Stonefield), or that the witnesses include a Thomas SPENCER. Thomas is recorded on several LPI parish maps, with various holdings on Davis Creek. There are others with surname SPENCER with property on or nearby Davis Creek in that same era.
Offline research of title deeds for MCDONALD may well give exact LPI references for Finlay’s Stonefield which likely was transferred from his name AFTER the reforms to NSW Land Title Deeds of the early 1860s. Once that detail has been confirmed, then perhaps contact could be made by our OP with the current land-owner regarding current knowledge about Finlay’s gravesite.
May I mention that the time between our OP’s opening post and reply # 23 was less than two full days (I think perhaps about 40 hours :) )……. And that her reply #23 was likely giving additional information to her reply #22 which concludes with her remarks :
...I would like to know where they are all buried.
(#22)
and led into
Also, I have been told that Finlay and Catherine were buried in a roadside grave, possibly the reason why I cannot find mention of their burial anywhere. Further, I can't find a newspaper article that mentions either their death or their burial
(#23)
So that I understood this to mean now that various RChatters had posted details about sightings for Finlay and Catherine and their offspring in New South Wales, that our OP was sensibly asking further questions as part of her original quest.
Ros, after re-reading this thread several times as a consequence of your reply #126, and after discussing with some of my older rellies (including retired NSW BDM senior officer), I see no value in any RChatter hectoring either myself or any other RChatter, and so I will leave it to you to follow up with the offline searching for Stonefield.
I cannot see any post where I suggested obtaining Finlay's dc for any purpose other than establishing his burial details. The official transcript clearly gives his burial details. It is simply a matter of interpreting their 1866 meaning by our 21st eyes, and within the context of who provided it, and what it represents. So, the Undertaker was Henry SMITH. He would have lodged the paperwork that ended up being recorded by the Registrar General's department. To me, there is nothing to be disappointed about in the information he provided. Clearly from the NSW Govt Gazette cutting I posted above, Henry SMITH was not the only one who referred to Stonefield.
So, while I cannot say for certain that there WILL BE further official NSW records to show that Stonefield was the name for Finlay’s property at Rouchel, I can certainly confirm that from my own research into my own family in that era and in that district that my Scottish ancestors did name their NSW property holdings, and frequently included ‘field’ as the suffix. It may well be that Finlay McDONALD also followed similar practices when naming his property. The official transcript certainly confirms that Finlay was buried at Rouchel Brook (Stonefield).
Our OP has not been online at RChat since 11 August, so it seems that there's been offline exchanges between Ros and our OP of family history information including the various NSW State Archives files and now the passing over to Ros of the official transcription of Finlay's 1866 dc.
I have changed my mind, (see reply # 125) and I will not follow up on the details of the burial ... I will leave it up to Ros to consider examining the close details needed from the various title deeds to find Stonefield and the exact location for that 1866 burial and for Ros to share that info directly with our OP.
JM
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I was not hectoring you JM - I merely disagreed about the main focus of the search.
I am sure EB will be grateful for further information about the burial and a photograph of the grave. I don't understand why you would deny EB help because I disagreed with you.
Ros
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I'm still lurking in the background ;D
Anyway...curiosity plays a part often in research as we know & I was curious as to the name 'Stonefield'...I haven't dug into it but there's this :-\...
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/search/results?st=stonefield
Annie
Edit...I forgot to add, I was curious whether any land names may have been named after homelands in Scotland.
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I have previously mentioned using the lpi website re land, and/or contacting Scone Historical Society. May I add that NSW State Archives also has long had a fine reputation re land searchings.
Here is the NSW State Archives guide re County/Parish Maps, including details of their resources re that project.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/county-parish-maps-guide
It is sensible to search not just the maps for the parish of Rouchel, but also the nearby parishes, within the County of Durham.
From my armchair searching this afternoon, at the lpi website … Thomas SPENCER held land on opposite sides of the water course ‘Rouchell Brook’, and so in the parish of St Aubins there’s Catherine McDONALD and Jane McDONALD as landholders with Thomas SPENCER as Catherine’s neighbour. All the relevant land title deed reference numbers are on the holdings and may well match up with any references or deeds etc found in the probated files Ros had sought when visiting NSW State Archives as indicated earlier in this thread
I leave it to other RChatters to follow up with physical access to the actual records held in Sydney to determine which (if any) was Stonefield, so that they may make any arrangements for photos etc. to be shared with our OP.
After reading the info on the 1866 dc re Stonefield, and then finding the NSW Govt Gazette notice re Finlay's probate and the mention of Stonefield in that notice, I would have expected 'Stonefield' to be mentioned somewhere in the paperwork Ros photographed for EBrand.
There is a probate packet for Finlay McDONALD https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/232485
I could photograph this for you next time I am there
Ros
.
JM.
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Hi Annie,
The names of the properties were Stonefield, Stoney Point, Bon Accord and Black But
(the latter 3 being subdivisions of orginal for the sons)
Ros
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The names of the properties were Stonefield, Stoney Point, Bon Accord and Black But
(the latter 3 being subdivisions of orginal for the sons)
Thanks Ros,
Nothing pertaining to Inverness-shire so doesn't look like my theory is going to work ::)
Places of similar names in Scotland....
Stonefield (Stonyfield, Huntly, Aberdeenshire)
Stoney Point (Stonehaven, Kincardineshire/Aberdeenshire) known as Stoney
Bon Accord (Aberdeen)
Black But (Nothing found)
Ah well...was worth the effort to try & find some connection to further the quest :D
Annie
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Annie, Blackbutt is both an Eucalyptus tree species and a town in Queensland.
Jamjar
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Blackbutt is both an Eucalyptus tree species and a town in Queensland.
Jamjar...I was meaning no Scottish connection ;D
Sometimes theories like mine do work but sadly not this time :-[
Annie
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Blackbutt is both an Eucalyptus tree species and a town in Queensland.
Jamjar...I was meaning no Scottish connection ;D
Sometimes theories like mine do work but sadly not this time :-[
Annie
Yes Annie, I know. I just thought you may be interested in what the connection may have been. :)
Jamjar
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I have received an email asking me to consider adding to this thread. I had turned off notifications after my reply (#130) and without being aware of an addendum to reply # 128, which apparently has since been further edited removing the addendum that may have referred to myself and my elderly relatives.
I will continue to leave the notifications turned off. Here’s the live links to lpi’s guides re land title searchings. These should be of benefit to anyone marrying up NSW BDM information, NSW Supreme Court Probate files, and NSW LPI historic Parish Maps and NSW LPI Land Title deeds and NSW Geographical Names Registers.
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/land_titles/historical_research
.
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/land_titles/historical_research/parish_maps
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/publications/search_guides
Brief History of the Records of the Reg-General
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/publications/search_guides (27 pages)
First Stop Guide to Records of the Reg Gen
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/150700/First_Stop_Guide.pdf
(24 pages
Old System http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/150705/Old_System_information.pdf
(66 pages)
Searching the Reg Gen’s Maps and Plans
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/150706/Searching_RG_Maps_Plans.pdf
(46 pages)
Torrens title info
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/150707/Torrens_title_information.pdf
(30 pages)
I have started a new topic giving live links to these valuable guides from the lpi. I am sure there’s many an RChatter who remembers the haphazard way family history buffs were given access to the Reg Gen records in earlier times.
Also Re Stonefield and Bon Accord and Scottish connections etc... err ... Aberdeen NSW is one of the nearby townships to those properties .... :)
JM
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Hi everyone.
Thank you all for your help thus far, you are all very kind for spending your time on my quest :)
Study has basically finished so I'm more or less back on the family history bandwagon.
I haven't had many new advances with the McDonald search after the receival of Finlay's death certificate but will work my way through your replies and all the links and advice you've given me.
I cannot thank you all enough!
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Welcome back EB :) Hope the exams went well :)
I will order a check and verify on the other Catherine McDonald who died on 17 Nov 1868 (reg 464/1868). Adding : ordered :)
Just re-reading the thread to refresh my memory. There were a few probates which I haven't photographed yet (limit of 16 per visit) so I will fit in a few more on next visit.
Ros
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Welcome back EB :) Hope the exams went well :)
I will order a check and verify on the other Catherine McDonald who died on 17 Nov 1868 (reg 464/1868). Adding : ordered :)
Just re-reading the thread to refresh my memory. There were a few probates which I haven't photographed yet (limit of 16 per visit) so I will fit in a few more on next visit.
Ros
Good to know your exams are behind you. :)
http://www.austcemindex.com/inscription?id=2994945#images
http://www.austcemindex.com/cemetery?cemid=225
17 Nov 1868
From the New England Highway at East Maitland, turn north-west onto the Morpeth Road. Follow this for approximately 1.3km to Hiland Crescent. The cemetery is 400m from that intersection at its junction with Maize Street.
……………………..
Re NSW BDM REF 464/1868 Deaths (the online search option for date of event gives all of 1868 for that event, ie not just 17 November 1868, but any date in that year– there are known flaws in the index, and other RChatters have previously mentioned these ‘date’ issues).
464/1868 – TWICE indexed :
Catherine MACDONALD/MCDONALD parents given names displayed as James and Bedelia, registered Sydney BDM district.
I expect that 464/1868 registration may be for the following Catherine McDonald.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13164538 SMH 13 April 1868
On Sunday, the 12th instant, at her residence, the Colonial Architect’s Department, Hyde Park, Catherine, relict of the late Mr Patrick McDonald, in the fifty first year of her age
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13164600 SMH 14 April 1868
Funeral
The friends of the late Mrs Catherine McDonald are invited to attend her funeral; the procession to move from St Marys temporary Cathedral this (Tuesday) afternoon at 3 o’clock
JM
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Welcome back EB :) Hope the exams went well :)
I will order a check and verify on the other Catherine McDonald who died on 17 Nov 1868 (reg 464/1868). Adding : ordered :)
Just re-reading the thread to refresh my memory. There were a few probates which I haven't photographed yet (limit of 16 per visit) so I will fit in a few more on next visit.
Ros
Thanks Ros! There seem to be so many MacDonalds/McDonalds in the area it is driving me a little crazy! I hope to hear soon about that other Catherine. I was wondering whether there were any websites or anything that is specific to the NSW area that aids people in searching for distant relatives? My hope is if I find someone else with the same roots as me, I might be able to uncover some information I never knew existed. It seems a little far fetched and probably not possible but it's something I'm willing to try.
EB
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Good to know your exams are behind you. :)
http://www.austcemindex.com/inscription?id=2994945#images
http://www.austcemindex.com/cemetery?cemid=225
17 Nov 1868
From the New England Highway at East Maitland, turn north-west onto the Morpeth Road. Follow this for approximately 1.3km to Hiland Crescent. The cemetery is 400m from that intersection at its junction with Maize Street.
……………………..
Re NSW BDM REF 464/1868 Deaths (the online search option for date of event gives all of 1868 for that event, ie not just 17 November 1868, but any date in that year– there are known flaws in the index, and other RChatters have previously mentioned these ‘date’ issues).
464/1868 – TWICE indexed :
Catherine MACDONALD/MCDONALD parents given names displayed as James and Bedelia, registered Sydney BDM district.
I expect that 464/1868 registration may be for the following Catherine McDonald.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13164538 SMH 13 April 1868
On Sunday, the 12th instant, at her residence, the Colonial Architect’s Department, Hyde Park, Catherine, relict of the late Mr Patrick McDonald, in the fifty first year of her age
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13164600 SMH 14 April 1868
Funeral
The friends of the late Mrs Catherine McDonald are invited to attend her funeral; the procession to move from St Marys temporary Cathedral this (Tuesday) afternoon at 3 o’clock
JM
Thanks JM! The newspaper articles are looking unlikely for my Catherine. I originally thought it could be a lead if she had remarried but I remembered that she was buried with Finlay, which wouldn't have made sense if she had remarried. I'm seriously thinking about contacting the Scone Family History Board, it's probably my best bet at the moment, and I'll let the forum know what info it turns up!
Thank you so much for your help,
EB.
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Just out of interest, there is a death registered in Scone on 19 November 1868
Female McDONALD, parents William and Ann at Scone reg 6518/1868
This is most probably a baby but I suppose there is a small possibility that the name was too difficult to read when the index was created ... ?
Ros
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Also, I have been told that Finlay and Catherine were buried in a roadside grave, possibly the reason why I cannot find mention of their burial anywhere. Further, I can't find a newspaper article that mentions either their death or their burial.
.... I do know the supposed death dates for Finlay and Catherine, and that is the 29th of Nov 1866 and the 19th of November 1868. ...
...
NB NSW BDM death certificates include details of burial (or cremation) and have done so since civil registration commenced in 1856. I would expect a roadside burial to be noted on the dc. BUT ... if there was a coroner's enquiry, in the second half of the 19th C it is possible that the burial order was not followed up with a formal registration of the death, particularly if in rural NSW where due to sparse population, it may be several years between inquests and not everyone remembered the formal paperwork processes.
Hi,
Using the “Date of Event” option at NSW BDM online index, I can find that index has the following for 17 – 18 -19 November 1868.
Registered Scone district:
Female MCDONALD (and as Macdonald), parents as William and Ann #6518
Registered Maitland district
Catherine MCDONALD, (and as Macdonald) father as John, died Maitland #4874
Registered Sydney district
Catherine McDONALD, (and as Macdonald) parents as James and Bedelia #464
Using same option re dates (Nov 1866 etc)
Finley MCDONALD (and as Macdonald), aged 70 years, died Scone, registered Scone #6568.
I would expect that these official records (or official transcriptions of them) would include details of their burials.
JM
Just out of interest, there is a death registered in Scone on 19 November 1868
Female McDONALD, parents William and Ann at Scone reg 6518/1868
This is most probably a baby but I suppose there is a small possibility that the name was too difficult to read when the index was created ... ?
Ros
ADD
Finlay and Catherine MCDONALD's burial information:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVB6-LHKB
JM
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/52732?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Microfilm of original records in possession of (JM REMOVES NAME OF POSSIBLE LIVING PERSON), Cardiff Heights, New South Wales.
Contains cemetery transcriptions from various cemeteries in Scone Shire.
Contents: Gundy Presbyterian, 1874-1918 -- Moonan Brook General, 1875- 1963 -- Moonan Flat Private, 1878-1927 -- Scone "St. Luke's" Church of England, 1812-1837 -- Scone "St. Mary's" Catholic, 1857-1919 -- Bunnan "St. Jude's" Church of England, 1887-1969 -- Brushy Hill, 1910-1942 -- Rouchel General, 1825-1968 -- Sparke's Creek "Karoona" Private, 1876-1887 -- Gundy "St. Matthew's", 1872-1934 -- Upper Rouchel two isolated graves, 1866-1868 -- Turanville Private, 1838-1888.
Perhaps our OP may consider following up on the original records re those two Upper Rouchel isolated graves ::)
JM
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Hi
Information on this site recently posted http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=Search&includedb=&lang=en&ti=&surname=macdonald&stype=Exact&given=&bplace=&byear=&brange=0&dplace=rouchel&dyear=&drange=0&mplace=&myear=&mrange=0&father=&mother=&spouse=&skipdb=&period=All&submit.x=Search
Muss
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Hi Muss,
I was likely adding to my post when you posted. I see the Rootsweb info includes email address for the person who updated 28 September this year. :)
Hopefully there's possible leads for our OP to follow up.
JM (I still have notifications turned off on this thread).
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https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/52732?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Microfilm of original records in possession of (JM REMOVES NAME OF POSSIBLE LIVING PERSON), Cardiff Heights, New South Wales.
Contains cemetery transcriptions from various cemeteries in Scone Shire.
Contents: Gundy Presbyterian, 1874-1918 -- Moonan Brook General, 1875- 1963 -- Moonan Flat Private, 1878-1927 -- Scone "St. Luke's" Church of England, 1812-1837 -- Scone "St. Mary's" Catholic, 1857-1919 -- Bunnan "St. Jude's" Church of England, 1887-1969 -- Brushy Hill, 1910-1942 -- Rouchel General, 1825-1968 -- Sparke's Creek "Karoona" Private, 1876-1887 -- Gundy "St. Matthew's", 1872-1934 -- Upper Rouchel two isolated graves, 1866-1868 -- Turanville Private, 1838-1888.
Perhaps our OP may consider following up on the original records re those two Upper Rouchel isolated graves ::)
JM
Thanks JM! Yes, those two isolated graves are definitely Finlay and Catherine as per the FamilySearch website: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89WB-HH7D?i=1&cc=2058669
I'll see if there is any way I can find the actual location of the roadside graves.
EB
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Hi
Information on this site recently posted http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=Search&includedb=&lang=en&ti=&surname=macdonald&stype=Exact&given=&bplace=&byear=&brange=0&dplace=rouchel&dyear=&drange=0&mplace=&myear=&mrange=0&father=&mother=&spouse=&skipdb=&period=All&submit.x=Search
Muss
Hi Muss! Thank you for this, I have just contacted the author of the database and judging by the amount and type of information they have, I'm guessing that they could be a close relative of mine, separated by only a few generations. Fingers crossed!
EB
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Just out of interest, there is a death registered in Scone on 19 November 1868
Female McDONALD, parents William and Ann at Scone reg 6518/1868
This is most probably a baby but I suppose there is a small possibility that the name was too difficult to read when the index was created ... ?
Ros
Thanks Ros!
I think there might be a small sliver of possibility but it is probably not likely. In addition, I'd be wondering where the names William and Ann came from.
EB
-
Just out of interest, there is a death registered in Scone on 19 November 1868
Female McDONALD, parents William and Ann at Scone reg 6518/1868
This is most probably a baby but I suppose there is a small possibility that the name was too difficult to read when the index was created ... ?
I think there might be a small sliver of possibility but it is probably not likely. In addition, I'd be wondering where the names William and Ann came from.
I wouldn't discard the possibility of a William in the family just yet...
From Reply #1
Death: 6568/1866 Finley (sic) McDonald AGE 70 YEARS DIED SCONE
4874/1868 Catherine McDonald father JOHN DIED MAITLAND
Marriage of youngest daughter, Catherine to Donald William McLean: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18647019
I admit I haven't gone through dates etc. (too tired right now & a very long thread)! ;)
Annie
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Not any help on the current conversations/queries but I did more searching last week for a possible connection with the place name in Aus being in relation to a place name back home in Inverness.
A few links which may/may not be of relevance/interest but closest name is 'Stoney' :-\
https://canmore.org.uk/site/76685/stoneyfield-house
http://www.ambaile.org.uk/detail/en/11251/1/EN11251-stoneyfield-toll.htm
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=14758
Annie
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I've lost the plot here Annie, is Strone any use?
Skoosh.
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Hey everyone,
I've been in contact with someone that has linked Findlay and Catherine to his family tree (on Ancestry) through Mary McNeven. Their information said that Mary was born in 1829 in Inverness (according to a death cert (one that I haven't seen)). They mention all the other children, but place Anne and Margaret as one person. This doesn't make sense to me as Nancy and Margaret were mentioned as two separate people in the NSW Archives records. He has written a book which he is willing to sell to me, but I just want to make sure that I have the right people before I invest $50 in the book. Is there any way a child could be missed off the register? Or simply could Mary be Anne? Or is Margaret, Anne? I am so confused.
EB
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Not any help on the current conversations/queries but I did more searching last week for a possible connection with the place name in Aus being in relation to a place name back home in Inverness.
A few links which may/may not be of relevance/interest but closest name is 'Stoney' :-\
https://canmore.org.uk/site/76685/stoneyfield-house
http://www.ambaile.org.uk/detail/en/11251/1/EN11251-stoneyfield-toll.htm
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=14758
Annie
Hey Annie,
Thank you so much for these. I know a few of my ancestors did name their properties after their properties in Scotland- but I haven't really heard anything from the McDonald side about that. Could be worth looking into though!
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Just a side note; the person I was in touch with had actually visited Catherine and Findlay's roadside grave and recently sent me photos of it!! It was amazing ;D
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Hi all,
After some searching on Ancestry.com, I have a member who claims they have information on Annie/Nancy, Findlay and Catherine's daughter. They are going to send the information to me soon, which I am very excited about. They claim that Annie married a man by the name of William Jamieson (and thus they are a descendant of the couple), I can't find much online about this union, but I'll keep looking. I'm just looking for a way to lend support to the theory that this may be my Findlay and Catherine's daughter.
EB.
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Using wildcards there is this death
1905
ADLAM Margaret, father Finlay, mother Catherine at Muswellbrook reg 9734/1905
obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article104906856
Ros
adding : no this lady was 81 so not the right one :(
I've been scrolling through earlier posts and stumbled upon this one again. Perhaps Margaret is our lady?
What leads me to be unsure of ruling her out is that this Margaret Adlam died in 1905 aged 81. This means she would have been born c.1824. On the official document of the Archives Authority of NSW, Margaret is said to have been 14 on arrival, which leaves her birth c.1825. The years are quite close, and one thing that I've learnt over the years is that people do have the wrong ages sometimes!
Also, with the note about the Irish heritage, Margaret was married twice, once to an Irishman named Thomas Keney/Kenny of Killaloe, Co. Clare, Ireland, and then to Edward Adlam, who was British. See below:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/104906856?searchTerm=%22margaret%20adlam%22&searchLimits=dateFrom=1839-01-01|||dateTo=1940-12-31|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales
(http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/104906856?searchTerm=%22margaret%20adlam%22&searchLimits=dateFrom=1839-01-01|||dateTo=1940-12-31|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales)
Perhaps she moved to Ireland with her Irish husband, and came back after he died/they got divorced. Or maybe she didn't move at all, but in the next notice they used her first husband's details instead of her own?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/706234 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/706234)
EB
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Hi all,
After some searching on Ancestry.com, I have a member who claims they have information on Annie/Nancy, Findlay and Catherine's daughter. They are going to send the information to me soon, which I am very excited about. They claim that Annie married a man by the name of William Jamieson (and thus they are a descendant of the couple), I can't find much online about this union, but I'll keep looking. I'm just looking for a way to lend support to the theory that this may be my Findlay and Catherine's daughter.
EB.
From NSW BDM online index (free to search)
:) marriage in 1841
William JAMESON and Ann MCDONALD, Line 629 of Volume 25C, with district code as NA (JM confirms that Vol 25 is Church of England and NA is Scone, so likely St Luke's parish in the Diocese of Newcastle).
:) death in 1893
registered in the Walcha district, Ann JAMIESON, parents given names INDEXED as Finley and Katherine. #14480
Notice the index has JAMESON for the marriage. :)
JM
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Just a side note; the person I was in touch with had actually visited Catherine and Findlay's roadside grave and recently sent me photos of it!! It was amazing ;D
Just reading through your many recent posts.
That's great news.
JM
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From NSW BDM online index (free to search)
:) marriage in 1841
William JAMESON and Ann MCDONALD, Line 629 of Volume 25C, with district code as NA (JM confirms that Vol 25 is Church of England and NA is Scone, so likely St Luke's parish in the Diocese of Newcastle).
:) death in 1893
registered in the Walcha district, Ann JAMIESON, parents given names INDEXED as Finley and Katherine. #14480
Notice the index has JAMESON for the marriage. :)
JM
Wow! Thank you so much JM! This is quite convincing, I think we may have finally found the missing Nancy/Anne! I wonder if there is a probate for her or her husband.
:)
EB
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EB, I'm a little lost on this lot now & I'm unsure who Mary McNeven is ;D
Do you know when she arrived from Scotland?
You could offer your own findings & enquire as to whether there's an error relating to Anne & Margaret in their tree which they may be unaware of?
I would be wary for now of parting with any £ unless this is through a known selling agent or with a traceable address, tel. no. etc?
What method has been offered for buying the book?
Annie
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EB, I'm a little lost on this lot now & I'm unsure who Mary McNeven is ;D
Do you know when she arrived from Scotland?
You could offer your own findings & enquire as to whether there's an error relating to Anne & Margaret in their tree which they may be unaware of?
I would be wary for now of parting with any £ unless this is through a known selling agent or with a traceable address, tel. no. etc?
What method has been offered for buying the book?
Annie
Hi Annie!
There has been a few online family trees who claim that Mary McNeven (nee McDonald) was another daughter of Finlay and Catherine. I have not seen any official sources to verify this yet. The people who claim to be descended from Mary have said that she was born in Scotland and came over to Australia with the rest of the family. This confuses me as she is not mentioned on the official record found in the Archives Office of NSW. At first I thought the descendant may have meant that Mary replaced one of the other female siblings- but as we begin to find evidence of Annie/Nancy and Margaret being different people and marrying, this is less likely.
I have said that I'm not buying anything yet but would like to discuss with him where the info came from and if we could share information. I'm waiting to hear back from him.
Will keep you updated!
EB
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It may be an idea to ask if they can direct you to where you can access the death cert. with the relevant details, date, place & ref. no. etc?
How old would Mary have been when travelling?
I have seen where Mary & Marg have been mistaken with a 'g' looking like a 'y'.
You could tell them she's not with the famiiy on the same ship i.e. where did they find their info?
Was the offer of buying the book by email or in an online message on Anc?
I would ask where the book can be ordered online which you can then check out (without purchasing)!
Even if it was through ebay at least it wouldn't be via personal routes.
Annie
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It may be an idea to ask if they can direct you to where you can access the death cert. with the relevant details, date, place & ref. no. etc?
How old would Mary have been when travelling?
I have seen where Mary & Marg have been mistaken with a 'g' looking like a 'y'.
You could tell them she's not with the famiiy on the same ship i.e. where did they find their info?
Was the offer of buying the book by email or in an online message on Anc?
I would ask where the book can be ordered online which you can then check out (without purchasing)!
Even if it was through ebay at least it wouldn't be via personal routes.
Annie
Hi Annie,
The descendant said that he had acquired most of his information from another descendant researching the family, and she had allowed him to come and note it all down. They said that this other lady had been quite meticulous with her work, but now he says that he is not even sure whether this is correct. He has also said that he is working on other projects now and is probably going to leave the McDonalds alone- but he offered to send me a copy of his book for free. I am still unsure of where the information mentioned has been sourced from, but I shall have a read of his book and see what comes up and whether it can be verified or not.
Will let you know what happens!
EB.