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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: bluegeranium on Sunday 25 June 17 17:10 BST (UK)

Title: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Sunday 25 June 17 17:10 BST (UK)
I have been very successful with tracing
my family history except for one problem - my grandfather.

I have my father's birth certificate from 1921 which says father's name James Wright Thomas-  Occupation bricklayer (deceased)
Mother's name Maggie Elizabeth Thomas formerly Thomas???

I can find no record of a James Wright Thomas either birth marriage or death which I assume was 1920/21.

I am also confused by the 'formerly Thomas'

The registration district was Kings Norton. Can anyone give me any help please?
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: Annie65115 on Sunday 25 June 17 17:36 BST (UK)
It's possible that "formerly Thomas" could imply that her maiden name was in this case the same as her married name; but it's possible too that that Maggie wasn't married and fabricated a husband.

what's the address on the birth certificate - is it a private address or a nursing home? Was Maggie the informant and if not, who was?

Do you know if your father had any siblings?

(ps - hello and welcome to Rootschat!)
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 25 June 17 17:47 BST (UK)
 :) Hi and welcome to RootsChat  :)

I would guess that he was illegitimate and his father was actually named James WRIGHT.  You need to look for your grandfather on the 1939 register (use his full name) to see who he is living with.  I think his mother married in 1943.

http://www.findmypast.com.au/1939register

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: jusnoneed on Sunday 25 June 17 17:48 BST (UK)
Family Search has a James W Thomas born 1899. Birmingham.
1901 census, aged 2, he is with  Albert and Mary Thomas.
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: Annie65115 on Sunday 25 June 17 17:53 BST (UK)

 I think his mother married in 1943.



You mean this one? Certainly looks potentially interesting:

Marriages Sep 1943   
Thomas    Maggie E    Wright    Birmingham    6d   740    
Wright    James A    Thomas    Birmingham    6d   740    
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Sunday 25 June 17 18:15 BST (UK)
Wow thanks for the speedy replies! OK Maggie was the informant she lived at the same address as the father but it says he was deceased and I can find no record of a death?

I know she was married in 1943 to a James A Wright who I always thought was my Grandad (always known as Arthur) so how can this be right if he was deceased as it says on the certificate?
However this would have been 22 years after my father was born.

Also still confused by all the Thomas names!
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: doddsie4 on Sunday 25 June 17 19:01 BST (UK)
There is a James Wright, died Kings Norton, 1st qu 1921.       It says he was born 1861 though.      It is on the ordinary death indexes.
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Sunday 25 June 17 19:08 BST (UK)
Seems unlikely as he would have been 60. Also very odd that she married a James A Wright 22 years later??
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: Dundee on Monday 26 June 17 03:27 BST (UK)
You need to look for your grandfather on the 1939 register (use his full name) to see who he is living with.

http://www.findmypast.com.au/1939register

Debra  :)

Maggie in 1881:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q276-XHMW

Mable F HUNT, Niece, 3, Wellington, Somerset, England
Maggy E THOMAS, Daughter, 1,  Steeple Ashton Bristol, England

The rest of the family in 1881 on the previous page:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q276-X43G

Maggie in 1891:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:W2DS-5MM

Mabel F HUNT, Niece, 13,    England (original states Wellington)
Maggie E THOMAS,  Daughter, 11, England (original states Bristol)

Maggie in 1901:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS39-T1Z

Maggie and Mabel continued to share a residence with Maggie's father.

When Maggie had your father in 1921 rather than register him as illegitimate she made up the details on the birth certificate.  If the man she married in 1943 was the biological father then perhaps he was not free to marry until then.  Do you have the marriage certificate?  If not then I suggest that you get it as it will show information about both of them including whether single or widowed/divorced.

What is the date of registration on the birth certificate.  Are there no other notations?  Do you know anything about James/Arthur WRIGHT?  His year and place of birth and death?

Debra  :)

Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Monday 26 June 17 10:37 BST (UK)
The date on the certificate is 30/5/21

I don't know anything about James Wright but I have found one born 1885 in Aston died 1968 which I think is about right. It does say he was a brass maker not a bricklayer though as it said on the certificate.

I know he was married before so maybe he was when my father was born and then married my grandmother much later and as you say the details about him being deceased and the names were made up on the registration.

I believe Maggie was a 'lady of the night' (sounds better than the P word!!) so seems plausible.

The address given on the birth certificate was the same as the 1939 index.

Its just a question of finding the right James Wright!
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: Galium on Monday 26 June 17 14:21 BST (UK)
One for you to consider.

1939 register shows a James A Wright b.1885 living in Birmingham. 


A James Arthur Wright married Fanny Trout in King's Norton district in 1907.

A Fanny Trout was born in Alcester district September Q 1877.

Children named Amy Kate Wright, and Joseph William Wright Mmn Trout were born in 1909 and 1910 respectively.

This family show up in 1911 at Worcestershire.  The birthplace of James' wife tallies with Alcester district.

A Fanny Wright aged 64 died in Birmingham district in 1942.

Added

Birmingham Mail 23 June 1942
Deaths
WRIGHT Fanny 5/147 Angelina Street. Passed away June 20.


Moderator comment: Edited for content.

1911 and 1939 details removed as you may only post information from a free search.

Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Monday 26 June 17 14:35 BST (UK)
The plot thickens!! I found a James Wright b 1886 on 1911 census living at Bordesley Park Terrace Aston which I thought was the one but now not so sure.
I also found a marriage in 1918 of James A Wright to Annie Hughes but that's as far as I got don't really know where to go from here?
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: Galium on Monday 26 June 17 15:31 BST (UK)
Are you aware of any children from James Arthur Wright's earlier marriage?
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: Dundee on Monday 26 June 17 15:36 BST (UK)
Do you have the marriage certificate?  If not then I suggest that you get it as it will show information about both of them including whether single or widowed/divorced.

The 1943 marriage certificate will give the groom's age, occupation, father's name and his occupation.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Monday 26 June 17 16:09 BST (UK)
My Mother has said that he had two daughters and she THINKS one was called Alice but she is 95 and her memory isn't great!
Maybe it is a good idea then to get the marriage certificate.

My father did have a much older sister b 1901 called Hilda May but no idea who her father was as James Wright would only have been 16 !
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Monday 26 June 17 16:43 BST (UK)
Have found 2 Alice Wrights one b 1921 mother's maiden name was Trout and this was mentioned by Galium earlier and this does make sense except that we believe he had 2 daughters and no son.
The other one maiden name Hughes b 1913 this ties up with a marriage I found James A Wright and Annie Hughes so it must be one of them but which??
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: josey on Monday 26 June 17 16:59 BST (UK)
so it must be one of them but which??
Mustn't be hasty now  ;D

But didn't James A Wright marry Annie Hughes in 1918? So is 1913 birth likely to be from an earlier Wright/Hughes marriage ...
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Monday 26 June 17 17:15 BST (UK)
Well spotted! if it was Fanny Trout, they married in 1907 but Alice wasn't born till 1921 14 years later if indeed its the same Trou! this isn't easy is it and certainly not conclusive!
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: josey on Monday 26 June 17 17:24 BST (UK)
Found these additional possible children
WRIGHT, LILIAN  MAY     TROUT     
GRO Reference: 1911  S Quarter in KINGS NORTON  Volume 06C  Page 743
WRIGHT, JAMES  ARTHUR     TROUT     
GRO Reference: 1913  D Quarter in KINGS NORTON  Volume 06D  Page 14
WRIGHT, ALBERT  GEORGE     TROUT     
GRO Reference: 1915  S Quarter in ASTON  Volume 06D  Page 816

If Fanny was 64 in 1942, she was born ca 1877 [as held out by 1939 free info from Galium]. She would have been 44 in 1921, so not out of the question - just a late surprise  ;)
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: Daisypetal on Monday 26 June 17 20:26 BST (UK)

Hi,

Just in case Maggie was telling the truth about the father's name ,I have found this James Wright THOMAS,


Birth
James Wright THOMAS    Jun Q 1889    Salford    8d  46
mmn: WRIGHT


Baptism
St Ambrose Church, Pendleton, Lancaster
Born:  11 May 1889
Baptism:  26 May 1889
James Wright
Son of Robert & Emma THOMAS
22 Mayor St
Labourer


Parent's marriage
Robert Henry THOMAS    Mar Q 1889    Barton upon Irwell    8c  729
Emma WRIGHT

 
Eccles, St Mary, Lancashire
1 Jan 1889
Robert Henry THOMAS
Age:  20
Bachelor
Labourer
Residence:  Seedley
Father:  William THOMAS,  Labourer

Emma WRIGHT
Age:  21
Spinster
Residence:  Seedley
Father:  James WRIGHT,  Shoe maker




1891  RG12/3204  f.118  p.15  Pendleton, Lancashire
22 Mayor Street

James WRIGHT    Head    W    54    Shoe maker B                   Lancashire Eccles 
Martha      "             Daur    S    17    Factory Hand                           "           "
Emma THOMAS     Daur    M    24                                               Bucks Winslow
Robert     "     Son-in-law    M    22    Labourer in Iron Foundry    Lancashire Salford
James W    "    Grandson            2                                                       "           "
Harry SHUKER       Boarder    S    20    Filer in Iron Foundry              "            "
Isabelle JEPSON    Boarder   W    42    General Servant             Cumberland Carlisle
Catherine HIND        Visitor    W    62    Living on own means            "            "




I can't see him after this but I will keep looking.


Regards,
Daisy
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 27 June 17 09:37 BST (UK)
THOMAS, Hilda  May      - 
GRO Reference: 1901  D Quarter
In KINGS NORTON
Volume 06C  Page 438
MMN --

Interesting that if this is the sister of your father as mentioned above, this time mother, Maggie Elizabeth was not making any efforts to invent legitimacy by adding extra names to the registration details.

Sue
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Tuesday 27 June 17 10:59 BST (UK)
I would like to thank you for all your replies most helpful.

I am fairly sure that the 1939 register with James A and Fanny Wright (Trout) of Angelina Street is correct.

However there was a Sarah Wright b1851 who I assume was his mother living there which doesn't tie up with what I thought was his father of Bordesley Park Terrace who was a brass caster his wife was called Jane so again not sure which is the right James Wright!
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 27 June 17 11:15 BST (UK)
In my opinion, you really should order the 1943 marriage certificate as mentioned.
This is an important person for your family line ;D
Sue
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: josey on Tuesday 27 June 17 11:17 BST (UK)
This family show up in 1911 at the home of James' parents Joseph and Sarah in Northfield, Worcestershire. 
So that might confirm Galium's finding above.

THOMAS, Hilda  May      - 
GRO Reference: 1901  D Quarter
In KINGS NORTON
Volume 06C  Page 438
MMS --
On the 1911 census she maybe shows up as a 9 yr old visitor with a Cocks couple.
 
I agree the marriage certificate is the accurate way forward, Sue.
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Tuesday 27 June 17 18:19 BST (UK)
I have now ordered the marriage certificate and will wait till that comes before I do anything else as my subscription has now expired!

Many thanks again for your help much appreciated
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Tuesday 27 June 17 21:14 BST (UK)
Mrs Cocks of 1911 is Maggie Thomas' sister
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: josey on Tuesday 27 June 17 22:18 BST (UK)
Ah yes, Mabel, thanks.

Look forward, bluegeranium, to the marriage details when you get them  :)
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Wednesday 26 July 17 18:55 BST (UK)
Hi again I now have the marriage certificate which gives the Angelina Street address and the Father's name Joseph William Wright decd. Also widow and widower so that confirms the details we thought were correct.

Fanny Trout was his first wife as they are on the 1911 census living with Joseph Wright but as for their children not sure how to find them.

I haven't yet renewed the subscription as I'm trying to sort everything out first and find what I need to search as I didn't have the correct James Wright birth details before - its quite time consuming isn't it!
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather Update
Post by: bluegeranium on Monday 05 February 18 07:46 GMT (UK)
Update – still stuck!
On the 1939 register my grandfather is shown as James ARTHUR Wright b 10/2/85 married to his first wife Fanny living at 5/147 Angelina St Birmingham. Father Joseph William Wright
The marriage was in 1907 still James ARTHUR Wright
Previous census only show James Wright which isn’t unusual
I have a death record in 1970 with the dob 10/2/86 which seems likely but this says James THOMAS Wright
There is a birth record for James THOMAS Wright - Mother Grainger in Kings Norton 1886 it does say birth quarter 2?
Sarah Ann Grainger married Joseph William Wright 1878 and Sarah Ann appears in the 1911 census along with James and Fannie in Northfield and on the 1939 register as a widow living with them
Question is where did the name Arthur come from and can we assume these are all the same person?? HELP!!
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: dawnsh on Monday 05 February 18 11:10 GMT (UK)
have you found a baptism for him?

Maybe the name changes after the baptism or he just fancied being known as Arthur
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: dawnsh on Monday 05 February 18 11:14 GMT (UK)
who was the informant on the death cert?

Maybe they had a copy of his original birth cert and took the name from that
Title: Re: Cannot find any record of my Grandfather
Post by: bluegeranium on Monday 05 February 18 11:22 GMT (UK)
I can't find a baptism with either name. I only have the death record not the certificate.