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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: mcalpinehastings on Monday 26 June 17 18:05 BST (UK)
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Hello Rootsnet!
So glad I found this place. I've been pulling my hair out looking for ancestors using first Ancestry.com then National Records of Scotland after visiting them on Princes St. in Edinburgh and being told that Ancestry is worthless!
My problem is this: there is a middle name that has been handed down in my family for three generations ending with my father. The name was, we thought, "MacAlpine" but turns out that's wrong it's actually "McAlpine" but was mis-recorded when the family came to America as these things are. The woman whose maiden name gave this middle name to my family, Mary McAlpine (b. I think in 1839 d. 1919 but I've not been able to find birth certificate this info comes from census records) was never married to the father of her six children who whom as far as I can tell she lived with until he died. That man's name was James Gow Hastings (1835-1887).
I managed to find on Mary's death records that her parents names were Jane Ker McAlpine (but then it says "M.S. Walls" I assume that's her maiden name?) and father James McAlpine. Because we're pre-1855 at this point there are no more civil records, only church records. since Mary McAlpine and James Gow Hastings were never married, there are no church records. I can find no birth info for Mary McAlpine, Jane Ker Wells McAlpine or James McAlpine, which leads me to believe that possibly Mary's parents weren't married either.
That was a very long lead up to my two questions. 1) How common was it for couples to live together, cohabitate and raise a family without being married? and 2) How do you research ancestors pre-1855 if there are no church records?
If I've posted in the wrong place please advise. I'm new to Roots Chat and am happy to be redirected. I hope very much that you can help!!
Sharon Castellanos Alamo, CA
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Hello & welcome.
You are in the right place on both counts.
you said:
I can find no birth info for Mary McAlpine, Jane Ker Wells McAlpine or James McAlpine, which leads me to believe that possibly Mary's parents weren't married either
It's quite possible they were Baptised under their their mother's name but were known as McAlpine if they weren't married.
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Thank you Jim for your speedy reply!
So what do you suggest I use as surname for Mary's baptismal records if her mother is listed as "Jane Ker McAlpine/ M.S. Walls". does that mean that Walls is surname and Ker is a middle name?
Also, if parents weren't married, would the church have baptised the baby?
Thanks again.
Sharon
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OK first of all just because you can't find a marriage doesn't mean they didn't. They could have been Non-Conformists ie. various types of Methodists or Baptists whose records are more difficult to find.
M.S. Walls does appear to be her maiden name so you could try looking again under that.
Ker(r) is her middle name. It's quite common for all sorts of reasons for people to have surnames as middle names.
Illegitimate children were Baptised usually with a note added that was not always very complimentary.
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Thank you! Well it does say on the birth records of the first Joseph McAlpine Hastings (son of Mary McAlpine and James Gow Hastings) "illegitimate" so I'm guessing Mom and Dad weren't married :) All the later census records list James as "head of household" and her as "boarder" and also "unmarried", and she never was listed as Hastings on any record I can find up to her death, so I don't think they ever got married which I find curious but I don't know much about the social customs of mid 19th c. Scotland which is partly why I'm here.
So I've now searched through RCC and CoS baptisms with fuzzy name matching for "Mary Walls" born between 1835 and 1845, as well as "Mary Ker/r" and I didn't find anything. :(
Thanks again for your advice. I'm not sure what else to try.
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For all things Scottish this is where to look (if you haven't already done so):
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-our-records
It's a pay-per-view site but you can buy credits.
Can you give us a few more details?
Where in Scotland were they ?
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That's where I've been doing all my searching lately. I've found a ton of info and pertinent docs on Hastings there but I've run into a brick wall when it comes to the McAlpine family.
Several census records indicate that Mary McAlpine was born in Dundee, but I've also found Arbroath listed as well. She and James spent most of their lives in Arbroath, though her last child (my ancestor Joseph McAlpine Hastings) was born in Brechin, and Mary also died in Brechin in 1919. I imagine she must have some connection there that brought her back several times.
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I've had a scout around without much luck so far, however I notice in 1861 Mary is in lodgings with a Helen McAlpine b. 1845 Arbroath. Have you tried to find a marriage for her as she may be a sister?
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1841 census Dundee
Address: Blinshal St
James McCalpin 40
Jean McCalpin 30 born Ireland
William McCalpin 10
Robert McCalpin 8
Mary McCalpin 2
Erskin Mills 20
Ann Mills 20
Susan Mills 2 Mo
I wonder if something happened to the parents as the children were all lodgers with other families in St.Vigeans by 1851.
Maureen
Welcome from me as well!
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That's them! Thank you so much.
Lesson learned: always do fuzzy match name search. McAlpine was the one name I didn't use the fuzzy name function on. I won't make that mistake again.
I assumed something happened to the parents, because I found Mary aged 22 living in a boarding house in Arbroath in 1861 with a 16 year old named Helen McAlpine who I assume was her sister.
Thanks again Jim and Maureen for your help.
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Good find Maureen
There's also Helen b. 1844 lodging with Mary.
So if we can find marriages for any of the other children that should confirm the parents names.
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Welcome to Rootdchat from me too.
The only place you will find a birth entry for Mary is at Scotlands People. As you and others have already searched but found nothing it can be assumed that it has not survived, unfortunately.
Prior to official registration becoming compulsory in 1855 in Scotland births/marriages/deaths were recorded in Parish Records.(OPR). Not all of these have survived if the birth was recorded in the first place.
Check out what it says about this on Scotlands People Site.
Dorrie
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I followed a brother of Mary Mcalpine i.e. William bc.1830.
He married an Elizabeth Baxter and subsequently died in Arbroath on 7/10/1892 - his parents are shown as James McAlpine and Jane Curwell (or Carwill) so looks like the 'Ker Wall' you have from Mary's death certificate is some corruption of that.
Having said that, I cannot find a marriage for her parents.
Annette
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Possibly members of the Free Church of Scotland (the church with all the people!) ;D
Skoosh.
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Skoosh - The Free Church of Scotland was not founded until 1843.
Dorrie
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Ah ken that Dorrie, so were they members in the places mentioned pre 1855 & also would probably still have used the parish kirkyard for burials! Some parishes almost the entire population joined the Free Kirk & left the parish kirk to the laird & his hangers-on!
Skoosh.
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Much thanks to all, this board is possibly the greatest discovery to date in all my searches!
I found the record of William McAlpine's death that you mentioned, Annette, it looks to me like mother is Jane Carwill. I'll keep searching to see if I get anything else. I see she was Irish, it makes me wonder with the spelling of McAlpine if James' family came from there at some point, too.
Would it have been usual for a Scot to marry an Irish lady?
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The answer to Scots marrying Irish is a yes. More common than you would think. Many Irish people came over to Scotland and settled here especially on the West Coast and in the Dundee area where most of them worked in the Jute Mills.
My Gt.Gt. Grandfather married an Irish girl in Dundee in 1851. I have managed to get their marriage entry on Scotlands People Old Parish Registers. Although he was Scottish born around 1833 (worked out from census records and his death certificate) I have not been able to get a birth record for him.
Dorrie
P.S. I also have Irish marrying Irish too in Scotland.
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Follow up newbie question. When you get to a point in your research where you have a name and a birth year but not much more besides, how can you decide if any of the available records belong to your guy or girl?
For example, I'd like to continue following the McAlpine line, and the oldest record I have is for a James McAlpine bc 1801, but all I know location-wise is that he was born in Scotland but not in Dundee, where he resided in 1841.
I do find a boy named James McAlpine born in Glasgow in 1801 to James McAlpine and Janet Carsteven, but I have no way of knowing whether this is MY James McAlpine.
Advice?
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the oldest record I have is for a James McAlpine bc 1801, but all I know location-wise is that he was born in Scotland but not in Dundee, where he resided in 1841.
I do find a boy named James McAlpine born in Glasgow in 1801 to James McAlpine and Janet Carsteven, but I have no way of knowing whether this is MY James McAlpine.
Did he live his life out in Scotland?
If so, when was the last sighting of him on the census'?
If he died after 1855 his parents names will be on his DC (including mother's maiden name) providing the informant knew those details.
Annie
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Thanks, Annie, for your help.
Last census record for James McAlpine found him living in Dundee with his family in 1841. By 1851 the children were split up, and the parents not listed, leading me to believe that they both died between 1841 and 1851. Certainly pre-1855, which means I have only church records to go by, and I couldn't find any records of death for James McAlpine.
I searched for the children and found the older boys all boarding separately in 1851 in St. Vigeans, but could only find marriage records for one of the boys, William (thanks to Annette!), and that doesn't help me with James' parents names.
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Hi Sharon,
You might want to have a look at the McAlpin(e) folk listed in the Howff burials - that wee boy Andrew could be the son of James and Jean.
http://www.fdca.org.uk/pdf%20files/HowffMc01.pdf
Jen
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being told that Ancestry is worthless!
Indeed. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
The name was, we thought, "MacAlpine" but turns out that's wrong it's actually "McAlpine" but was mis-recorded when the family came to America as these things are.
Please disabuse yourself of the idea that there was ever such a thing as 'correct spelling'. There wasn't. Names were just written down however the person writing them down thought they ought to be written down. Therefore (a) it was not a 'mistake' to spell it MacAlpine when they arrived in America and (b) you need to be aware of all possible spellings when searching, as you have discovered.
So what do you suggest I use as surname for Mary's baptismal records if her mother is listed as "Jane Ker McAlpine/ M.S. Walls". does that mean that Walls is surname and Ker is a middle name?
It means that Walls was her maiden surname (M.S.) and Ker(r) was her middle name. So for clarity you should call her Jane Ker(r) Walls. However it is very common indeed to omit middle names from baptism and other records.
Could Carwell or whatever have been a corruption of Cargill, which is an extremely common surname around Arbroath?
Also, if parents weren't married, would the church have baptised the baby?
Yes, they would. Eventually.
1) How common was it for couples to live together, cohabitate and raise a family without being married?
I'd say it was fairly unusual for a couple to chabit and have quite such a large family.
and 2) How do you research ancestors pre-1855 if there are no church records?
With great difficulty :( unless they owned land or got themselves into trouble with the law or the church.
Follow up newbie question. When you get to a point in your research where you have a name and a birth year but not much more besides, how can you decide if any of the available records belong to your guy or girl?
You can't, unless you can find some other piece of evidence. The one thing you must never do is to assume that, just because you can only find one candidate, that person is the right one.
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Thank you, Forfarian, for your very thorough reply! I searched for Cargill, which was a great idea, but didn't find a marriage between Jane/Jean Carwill/Carwell/Cargill/Ker Wells/whatever(!) and James McAlpine. I obviously wouldn't have found a birth record for her if, as it says on the 1841 census records, she was born in Ireland.
I am still kind of caught up on the idea that Mary McAlpine and James Hastings never married, nor did she ever take his name on any records I found before or after his death. I wish I could find more about her story--it's funny but it's usually the female ancestors that capture my imagination--I seem to have had a lot of very strong women in my family history, which bears out in my current ferocious female relatives. :)
I think my next step, as suggested by Rosinish, is to start looking for graves. I think I've pretty much exhausted the digital archives.
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I am still kind of caught up on the idea that Mary McAlpine and James Hastings never married, nor did she ever take his name on any records I found before or after his death.
I don't know if you know that Scottish birth certificates after about 1860 list the date and place of the parents' marriage, so it might be interesting to get some of them and see what they say. If they all say illegitimate, I think that would be pretty definitive. I wonder if perhaps James was married to someone else? Have you found his death certificate? If he was, and whoever registered his death knew that he was, it should say so on the death certificate.
As for burials, go to www.deceasedonline.com. Angus Council has made all its burial records available there, at a price. This would cover Arbroath and Brechin but not Dundee.
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So I found James' burial register in Montrose Jan 1887, under residence or designation it says, "Asylum" Does that mean some kind of hospital or do they mean lunatic asylum? Can't locate death certificate, and the burial records don't provide much information.
I so far have found birth records of two of their children that clearly say "illegitimate". They were still all living together according to census of 1881, but by 1887 he was in Montrose by himself. Mary and children continued in Arbroath, I found 1891 census she's listed as "Mary Hastings" (the only time I've seen that!) with the kids by herself.
Certainly would be interesting if he had another family somewhere, but I'm not picking up any clues that it's the case.
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So I found James' burial register in Montrose Jan 1887, under residence or designation it says, "Asylum" Does that mean some kind of hospital or do they mean lunatic asylum?
Montrose had a huge asylum at Hillside, that provided a service for most of Angus. Although principally intended for 'lunatics', such asylums often accommodated people suffering from dementia and other problems of old age.
I do not know, never having looked for them, whether the patient records of the Montrose Asylum have survived, but if they have and you can track them down they will tell you a huge amount of detail about James Hastings. I would start at https://www.dundee.ac.uk/archives/
Can't locate death certificate
I don't understand that.
They were still all living together according to census of 1881, but by 1887 he was in Montrose by himself. Mary and children continued in Arbroath, I found 1891 census she's listed as "Mary Hastings" (the only time I've seen that!) with the kids by herself.
It wasn't unusual for a family to be split up if one of them had to be admitted to a hospital for whatever reason. I wouldn't read anything into James being apparently alone in Montrose.
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Sent inquiry to University of Dundee, they responded almost immediately. What a pleasant shock! It made me look again for death certificate and now that I knew to look in Montrose I found it.
He definitely died at Sunnyside Lunatic Asylum, but the cause of death is really hard to read. It might be Latin because it looks like "Take Dorafis". As far as I tell that makes no sense in English or Latin.
I'm waiting to hear, I'll report back when I find more.
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The cause of death is probably 'tabes dorsalis'.
I have a hypothesis to put to you.
I think that James Hastings was married to Mary Duthie in 1853, and had several children with her. He then left her, or split up with her, and took up with Mary McAlpine, but as Mary Duthie or Hastings did not die until 1903, he could not marry Mary McAlpine. Divorce was out of the question for most people in the 1860s, because it required an Act of Parliament, and was therefore far too expensive for the vast majority.
You can test this hypothesis by getting the birth certificate of Mary Duthie's son Charles William Gordon Hastings, born in 1866, and comparing the signature of James Hastings on that document with his signature on the birth certificate of Joseph McAlpine Hastings, which is already in your possession.
Try it, and see what you think.
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That was a fair hypothesis, Forfarian!! But it doesn't look like it holds up. I compared the signature from the birth of Charles William Gordon Hastings to the birth certificates of both George and Joseph M. (Mary's children), and the George and Joseph M. look similar but pretty distinct from the Charles one. Plus, Charles' father's occupation is "Seaman master, Merchant Service", which I have never seen listed on any documents for James Gow. He's always listed consistently as a flax dresser.
Googling tabes dorsalis leads me to believe that James died from Syphilis (yuck). But Mary lived for many more years; she died in 1919. How did he die of syphilis in 1887 but she managed to live on for another 32 years? She couldn't have had syphilis and lived that long I don't think. How's she manage to avoid it?
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Ah, well, it was worth a punt.
Yes, tabes dorsalis often (usually) means advanced syphilis. Yet the wives not infrequently manage not to get infected, or if they do they don't develop the full-blown disease.
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I got the records from the Montrose Lunatic Asylum, but they didn't list the one piece of information I was looking for! It clearly states that James Hastings is married but he doesn't name his wife on any forms. That means one of three things:
1) He was lying about being married and didn't want to name his wife because he knew he didn't really have one.
2) He married Mary McAlpine at some point between 1875 (son Joseph was listed as "illegitimate" in 1875 and 1882 when he was admitted to the asylum.
3) He was married but not to Mary McAlpine and so didn't want to name his wife on the form.
I've asked the researcher at University of Dundee if there were any visitor logs. James was in the asylum for five years (I shudder at the thought--the medical logs were chilling) before he died. Don't you think it likely that someone came to see how he was faring?
Under "nearest known relative of the patient and degree of the relationship", it says "not known". On his death certificate it says "wife - and then two lines which says to me that there was a wife but he didn't put her name down. I could understand on the death certificate that he wasn't lucid enough to answer but I would think he would have had the wherewithal to name his wife on the admission papers.
Anyway, I might never know. I'll report back if I get another response from Dundee.
Sharon