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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: benchurian on Tuesday 27 June 17 16:58 BST (UK)

Title: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Tuesday 27 June 17 16:58 BST (UK)
Hi all, First off I have to admit I do not know the geography of Scotland.  Murryfield is as far as I go and that's it.   ;)  I am looking for info on James McKenzie who I estimate was born in [+-]1860.
His father was Thomas McKenzie and mother Margaret.  As far as I know James came from or lived in Dundee.  James served in the military from 1881 to 1915 and was posted in Forfarshire Rga. but I was informed by our friends in the military section that the rga reference is wrong.  What I do know is he ended his service in Beggars Bush Barracks in Dublin.  He married a Catherine (Kate) Dorman on Sept 8 1878.  She was from Ireland.
Any help in building up an image of this family would be of great help.  I am interested in the Scottish side of this only as I have the full family who remained in Dublin.
Gerry
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Tuesday 27 June 17 18:44 BST (UK)
Just briefly - in your post on the other board you called it the Forfarshire regiment.  If it was, as you now say, "Forfarshire rga" then it was the Forfar and Kincardine Royal Garrison Artillery (Militia)" which might make your search among the Scottish militias a bit easier!

maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Wednesday 28 June 17 02:10 BST (UK)
Yes, I made the cardinal error of assuming rga was short for regiment.  I am at a loss as to where to go from here except to say I am more interested in the family rather than his military career. Having said that would I be better off staying in this Forum?   ???
Gerry
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 28 June 17 09:27 BST (UK)
I think so on the basis that folk with more knowledge of Scottish family history will happen along here and his militia service was a matter for the county rather than the War Office.  Possible avenue here?  http://www.fdca.org.uk/

There are records of attestations to the Forfarshire and Kincardine RGA at the National Archives.  They are published on Findmypast but the earliest enlistment I find for that name in that regiment is 1894 and none have a record stretching to 1915.

Let us hope that the names you have now posted will help the search.  If in due course you find you are getting nearer to your man and looking again at the military side might help, you can always start a new thread.


maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Wednesday 28 June 17 13:30 BST (UK)
Thank you MaxD. 
As for his military service I can help with;
Source:
British Militia Attestations Index, 1886 - 1910
MyHeritage.com [online database]. Lehi, UT, USA: MyHeritage (USA) Inc.
https://www.myheritage.com/research/collection-10101/british-militia-attestations-index-1886-1910

Record:
https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10101-40149/james-mckenzie-in-british-militia-attestations-index
James Mckenzie
Country: Scotland; County: Angus

Citation:
James Mckenzie
Birth: Dundee, Forfarshire, Scotland
Service: Between 1881 and 1915
He remained in Dublin to raise his family.  He became a widower in 1901 and appears in the latest census available (1911)  He is my ggrandfather and I would love to know more about him.
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 28 June 17 13:45 BST (UK)
My Heritage is a subscription site for which I don't have a sub I can't access it.  I have sent you a PM.

maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Sunday 16 July 17 17:22 BST (UK)
I came across two births in Dundee.  I wonder if either were the James I am looking for?  Anyone in Scotland be in a position to look them up?  I am confused as to who James father is.  He married in a civil and later in a church ceremony.  In one his father was John and the other Thomas.

MCKENZIE  JAMES   Male  1856  282/1 277   Dundee First District

MCKENZIE  JAMES   Male  1859  282/2 277   Dundee Second District

Thanks
Gerry
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 16 July 17 17:48 BST (UK)
MCKENZIE  JAMES   Male  1856  282/1 277   Dundee First District

MCKENZIE  JAMES   Male  1859  282/2 277   Dundee Second District

Not in Angus but a possible;

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYS4-1VP

Annie



Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 16 July 17 17:56 BST (UK)
I am confused as to who James father is.  He married in a civil and later in a church ceremony.  In one his father was John and the other Thomas.

This may be a sign that he was illegitimate or father died when he was young?

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 16 July 17 18:00 BST (UK)
Can I just ask, how do you know his mother was named Margaret?

What was his Father's occupation on his marriage?

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 16 July 17 18:45 BST (UK)
1861 census Index has 1 Thomas McKenzie (Dundee, Angus)

MCKENZIE THOMAS
1861
41
282/1 19/ 13
Dundee First District, Angus

I don't see a wife Margaret nor a son James

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Sunday 16 July 17 19:42 BST (UK)
The 1901 Irish census appears to indicate James was born in Edinburgh.
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 16 July 17 19:56 BST (UK)
Familysearch Scottish births and baptisms has for Dundee:

12 Feb 1856 father James McKenzie mother Jean Walker
19 April 1859 father James McKenzie mother Ann Fenton

maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 16 July 17 20:02 BST (UK)
Using birth year 1857 - 1861 strangely there's no James M(a)cKenzie anywhere in Scotland  ???

Can someone else check that index please, not sure if it's working properly for me, been having problems with comp & SP lately?


MaxD,

I should have said I'd checked them hence the reason I didn't post as no names fitted.

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 16 July 17 23:40 BST (UK)
The 1901 Irish census appears to indicate James was born in Edinburgh.

Thanks Isobel.

From that with a range 1857 - 1863 there were 8 of which had no middle name & 7 with a middle name.

What was the names of James' 1st son & 2nd daughter as this may give a clue to his parents names?

Annie

Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Monday 17 July 17 07:31 BST (UK)
Looks like we have been here before-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=574156.msg4264373#msg4264373
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Monday 17 July 17 14:04 BST (UK)
Yes isobelw, we have been here before as you say.  The difference is this time we have some concrete facts to work with, the last time was a lot of speculation.  I am still no farther in knowing this line of my family and I would dearly love to.  Is there some way of linking the James McKenzie who served in the military and a family with a James McKenzie born in Dundee?  I don't think we are quite there yet.
Thanks for your help to date,
Gerry
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Monday 17 July 17 14:14 BST (UK)
I searched familysearch & couldn't find a James born Dundee/Angus to a Thomas or a John as MaxD has posted.

There's no way of linking him without further investigation but I have a feeling he may have been illegitimate i.e. Indexed under his mother's maiden name?

How do you know his mother was Margaret & what were the names of the children I asked about in an earlier post please?

What was his Father's occupation on his marriage(s)?

We may be able to find someone relating to that occupation as a possible lead?

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Monday 17 July 17 14:19 BST (UK)
It's actually a strange one this...

Forfar connection with Military, 1901 states born Edinburgh yet the surname McKenzie is a further north surname?

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Monday 17 July 17 14:42 BST (UK)
civil marriage record for James and Catherine.
It reads - James Mckenzie of full age, a private in the 93rd rgt (not the 97th as I said) of Beggars Bush Barracks Co Dublin - son of John McKenzie, an engineer - to Katherine Dorman - of full age of 23 upper Mount Street, city of Dublin - daughter of William Dorman, a Steward. Witnesses were Sarah Lawlor and Peter Anderson.
The church record gives James' parents as Thomas and Margaret from Alba.
Rosinish,  to answer your questions; 
When James first married Catherine Dorman in an 1877 Civil ceremony, he stated his father was John and was an engineer.  A year later in a church wedding he stated his father was Thomas but unfortunately did not list an occupation. 
The only children I know of are 
Thomas. Born 15th Sept 1878  Sponsor Margaret Darman 23 Earl st.
Catherine 1880. 11 Lr King st. sponsor Catherine Donohue.?  I believe this child died very young.
John 7th May 1880. 38 Common St. sponsors Thomas Rorke and Maria Dorman.
Mary 1885 (census)
Catherine 1887 128 Townsend St. sponsor William Cooper, Jane Byrne.
James 1889 1 Grattan Court. Sponsors Thomas McKenzie, Catherine Nichol.
Hannah Ellen 1893 1 Peterson’s lane. Sponsor Maggie Dorman
Louisa 1895 (Census)
I acknowledge pndorman as the source of some of this information.
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Monday 17 July 17 15:09 BST (UK)
1901 census gives Edinburgh as place of birth and in 1911 the person completing the census has started to write Edinburgh and then crossed it out and written Scotland.
Struggling to understand where Dundee and the Forfar Militia fits in.
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Monday 17 July 17 15:45 BST (UK)
Annie - The Family Search results I posted are here https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Ajames~%20%2Bsurname%3Amckenzie~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Adundee~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1856-1859~

Bechurian - we corresponded privately with regard to the military side but you did not reply to my PM of 28 Junel inviting you to scan the records (not the index which is what you posted before) so I don't think we have much info yet about his army service!

maxD

Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Monday 17 July 17 16:24 BST (UK)
Hi all, First off I have to admit I do not know the geography of Scotland.  Murryfield is as far as I go and that's it.   ;)  I am looking for info on James McKenzie who I estimate was born in [+-]1860.
His father was Thomas McKenzie and mother Margaret.  As far as I know James came from or lived in Dundee.  James served in the military from 1881 to 1915 and was posted in Forfarshire Rga. but I was informed by our friends in the military section that the rga reference is wrong.  What I do know is he ended his service in Beggars Bush Barracks in Dublin.  He married a Catherine (Kate) Dorman on Sept 8 1878.  She was from Ireland.
Any help in building up an image of this family would be of great help.  I am interested in the Scottish side of this only as I have the full family who remained in Dublin.
Gerry
James is described as a Labourer on nearly all the birth certificates of the children that I have found on the irishgenealogy.ie website. This is at odds with your claim that he served from 1881 to 1915. Only reference to him being a soldier is on his marriage certificate.
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Monday 17 July 17 16:40 BST (UK)
Isobelw

Elsewhere I have pointed out to the OP that the reference to 1881 to 1915 is an often seen mess up by some sites who take a document covering the whole period and transcribe it as "service between".  his man's service would have been somewhere within the two dates.  Indeed the unit in question was disbanded in 1908!  I haven't yet been able to get any further on the military side for want f sight of the records.  I know exactly where to find the records of the Forfar and Kincardine RGA but the true dates are needed to get any further!

While researching this earlier I came across this which I posted for amusement (I hope) elsewher on the site. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=775088.0

maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Monday 17 July 17 16:47 BST (UK)
isobelw -  The years of service are not known.  I understood the years indicated were his years of service but maxD put me straight when he explained the years were an indication of the records available.  It was my error in the beginning which was cleared up fairly quickly.

MaxD - I did look at the link you provided and could not make any sense of it. I found nothing.  I will give it another go.
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Monday 17 July 17 17:23 BST (UK)
It was a link to one of the Forfar and Kincardine RGA series of records where the (to me) amusing bit was the heading showing which initials it was dealing with:

Forfar and Kincardine R.G.A.: SEE - YOU (as in See you Jimmy -Russ Abbot

maxD

Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Monday 17 July 17 17:31 BST (UK)
Still not sure why we are chasing this militia record. On his marriage certificate in 1877 and also on the birth certificate of his first child in 1878 James is described as being in the 93rd regiment. On the birth of John in 1880 he is a Clerk and births from 1881 onwards ( see eg birth of Margaret) he is a Labourer. In 1901 he is a Labourer and in 1911 a Carpet Planner.
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Monday 17 July 17 21:11 BST (UK)
Perhaps a quick summary - this started on the on the Armed Forces board http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=773917.msg6271560#msg6271560 which then came across to this board as the emphasis was on family.

The path to the regular army, in this case the 93rd, from the part time militia was one well trodden by many so a start in the militia followed by a stint in the 93rd was certainly feasible.  However, as perhaps you will have gathered, we (I) can't tie down the name to that unit of militia (no NA records before 1894).  I have suggested a couple of lines of approach.

I should also say that I am unable to find any service record for a James McKenzie in the 93rd in the time frame.  This is not surprising, most records for men who left the service in the normal way after their commitment were routinely destroyed.

If there were a service record for the man in the 93rd and it said he had previously served in the Forfarshire and Kincardine Militia RGA then we'd be quids in but there isn't one and there is no service record that has any family info.  I would therefore now say that the military side is not going to shed any light on the search.

maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Monday 17 July 17 22:22 BST (UK)
Well summed up MaxD.  Isobelw where did these récords pop up from.  I have searched high up and low down for a couple of years now and faiLED to find anything except the marriage cert  and my grandfathers birth.  Well done and thanks so much.
Gerry
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Monday 17 July 17 23:20 BST (UK)
You can view them for free at irishgenealogy.ie
See also Margaret 1885 and Ellen 1892 which you may not have seen before. Think they all died as babies
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 18 July 17 00:37 BST (UK)
Annie - The Family Search results I posted are here https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Ajames~%20%2Bsurname%3Amckenzie~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Adundee~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1856-1859~

MaxD...

I read all the births (not only Dundee/Angus) although possibly should have been clearer in my wording.....

I couldn't find a James born Dundee/Angus to a Thomas & Margaret nor John & Margaret i.e. names didn't fit  :D
I posted the only marriage I found with a James & Margaret (Lanarkshire)

Isobel, Thanks for the info. from the marriage & birth cert.
"On his marriage certificate in 1877 and also on the birth certificate of his first child in 1878 James is described as being in the 93rd regiment"

MaxD, How old would one have to be to enlist? We have a c yr of birth as 1860 +/- (hence my question).

Benchurian, I'm finding it strange with the naming of James' children as they don't seem to use the traditional naming pattern  ???

There's no Margaret after his mother, no William after Catherine/Katherine's father.
EDIT..Just noticed Isobel's post with Thomas being William Thomas but I had been reading from your list of births  ;)

It may be worth looking for further info. on the Sponsor Thomas McKenzie on his son James' birth in 1889, 1 Grattan Court!

There can't be many McKenzies in Ireland surely/hopefully  ???

Annie





Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 18 July 17 02:51 BST (UK)
I think this could be Thomas in 1901?

Born Scotland..

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003805202/

A marriage would be good as this Thomas' wife was born Ireland.


Annie

Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Tuesday 18 July 17 07:28 BST (UK)
James was 46 in 1901 and 56 in 1911 which makes his birth nearer 1855. There is a possible James in the 1861 census age 7, living with his widowed mother Margaret in Edinburgh. However she is described as a Hawker, so seems unlikely her deceased husband would have been an Engineer.
James and Catherine had two daughters that they named Margaret, both seem to have died in infancy.
Thomas found in 1901 could be a possible for the sponsor, however I note he was Church of Ireland and James was Roman Catholic.
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 18 July 17 08:22 BST (UK)
Forfar connection with Military, 1901 states born Edinburgh yet the surname McKenzie is a further north surname?
Yes, MacKenzie/McKenzie is from further north (Inverness-shire/Ross and Cromarty) but by the 1860s enough Highlanders had 'emigrated' to the Lowlands to make it quite a common surname even in Edinburgh. There were 556 M*k*nz* births in the City of Edinburgh between 1855 and 1869.
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 18 July 17 08:27 BST (UK)
benchurian, I am confused. You say in a post dated 5 January 2012 in your other thread that you had 'just dicovered' that James was born in Edinburgh about 1855. Yet in the first post in this thread, dated 27 June 2017, you say he was from Dundee and born about 1860.

Are we looking for two James Mackenzies, one born in Edinburgh 1855-ish and one in Dundee 1860-ish? If not, and you knew in 2012 that he came from Edinburgh, why are you asking the same question five years later on the basis that he came from Dundee?
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Tuesday 18 July 17 12:19 BST (UK)
Death certificate for James in case you don't have it.
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Tuesday 18 July 17 13:25 BST (UK)
Annie

As to age of enlistment - there was much change/improvement through the nineteenth century* but by the last quarter of the 1800s the age for enlistment was generally 15 although rules were not always adhered to and some recruiting parties were not above taking younger boys particularly if they were tall!

A general point - the term "Under age" on a service record usually referred to a person being under 18, the age at which qualification for pension started.


maxD


*It was the 1830s/40s before any meaningful regulation on the age of boy chimney sweeps was enacted.
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 18 July 17 14:38 BST (UK)
Forfar connection with Military, 1901 states born Edinburgh yet the surname McKenzie is a further north surname?
Yes, MacKenzie/McKenzie is from further north (Inverness-shire/Ross and Cromarty) but by the 1860s enough Highlanders had 'emigrated' to the Lowlands to make it quite a common surname even in Edinburgh.

Yes Forfarian,

I'm aware of the movement of the time but I was thinking aloud ;)

The initial piece of info. Reply #4

“James Mckenzie
Birth: Dundee, Forfarshire, Scotland”

He later states Edinburgh.
Could he have had relatives around Forfar, Kincardine & beyond as a move from Edinburgh where he could have enlisted may have initially been for work rather than to enlist & if he had given a Dundee address it may have been assumed he was born there or would there have been a reason for him to state he was born in Dundee rather than Edinburgh?

So which of those birth places do we believe is why my ‘?’

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Tuesday 18 July 17 16:26 BST (UK)
Hi Forfarian,
benchurian, I am confused. You say in a post dated 5 January 2012 in your other thread that you had 'just dicovered' that James was born in Edinburgh about 1855. Yet in the first post in this thread, dated 27 June 2017, you say he was from Dundee and born about 1860.

In 2012 I was working off a family rumour, my elderly mother thought her family came from Edinburgh.  Today we know, according to his enrollment papers, he was born in Dundee. As for the DOB we are counting back assuming he was 21(legal age) in 1877 when he first married.  Hope this answers your question.

Gerry.
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Tuesday 18 July 17 16:33 BST (UK)
If my reading of the various posts is correct then Benchurion has found a reference to a James McKenzie born in Dundee on the Myheritage database and is now trying to prove he is the same person that married Catherine Dorman in 1877 in Dublin ( at which time he was a soldier with the 93rd regiment). The birth certificates of his children suggest that James left the army around 1878 and was subsequently employed in various different jobs (Clerk, Warehouseman, Labourer). Not having access to the Myheritage data it is difficult to judge whether there is a possibility of it being the same person. My feeling is the Dundee angle is a complete red herring.
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 18 July 17 16:52 BST (UK)
Isobel,

I had typed this prior to posting after reading everything in full etc. but I see you are of the same opinion with some doubt as to the Forfar Military connection.

Benchurion,

It would have been an idea to have given us all the info. you have right from the start as there’s absolutely nothing within anything posted so far by yourself (or anyone else) to suggest your James was b “[+-]1860”

The info. you have provided (in no particular order) is….

“I am looking for info on James McKenzie who I estimate was born in [+-]1860
His father was Thomas McKenzie and mother Margaret. 
As far as I know James came from or lived in Dundee posted in Forfarshire Rga
I am confused as to who James father is.  He married in a civil and later in a church ceremony.  In one his father was John and the other Thomas James first married Catherine Dorman in an 1877
James Mckenzie of full age, a private in the 93rd rgt
James Mckenzie Birth: Dundee, Forfarshire, Scotland”

Marriage ‘of full age’ would make him at least 21 yrs old in 1877 (born c 1856 or prior) i.e. why would you assume a birth year of “[+-]1860”?

From Isobel;

“1901 census gives Edinburgh as place of birth and in 1911 the person completing the census has started to write Edinburgh and then crossed it out and written Scotland
James was 46 in 1901 and 56 in 1911 which makes his birth nearer 1855”

Death 1925 aged 71 i.e. born c 1854

How sure are you that the Military Man is yours as MaxD has shown….
 “There are records of attestations to the Forfarshire and Kincardine RGA at the National Archives.  They are published on Findmypast but the earliest enlistment I find for that name in that regiment is 1894”

Annie


Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 18 July 17 17:24 BST (UK)
Benchurion,

From the info. on the marriage cert. "a private in the 93rd rgt" could it be that this was;
http://www.93rdhighlanders.com/hist.html

That would be a better fit for the surname if nothing else although doesn't really fit for his place of birth as Edinburgh but could he have signed up in Edinburgh?

I have no knowledge of Army Recruitment i.e. maybe MaxD can answer that?

I'm only trying to help  ;D

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Tuesday 18 July 17 18:15 BST (UK)
Findmypast have Attestation Papers for a James McKenzie born Dundee around 1862. He joined the Durham Light Infantry ( soldier number 539) in Jan 1882 and served till 1889 before transferring to the Army Reserve until 1894. He declared previous service in the F & K Arty Militia ( which I think is Forfar and Kincardine Artillery Militia). His next of kin was Mother Jessie McKenzie of 5 Kinloch Street, Dundee. Is it possible that this is the person who appears on the MyHeritage index?
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Tuesday 18 July 17 19:04 BST (UK)
IsobelW  - The passage of time has added a layer of confusion to the thread.  I was able earlier on,  via the My Heritage reference thence to the original NA document WO 96/1357 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C154881 which is the relevant register of attestations to the F&K then back to FindMyPast where the WO 96 ref gave me the DLI man.  (Deep breath).  However, at that stage of the thread, the mother's name Jessie and the 1862 birth seemed to put it out of the running so I left it in the pending tray.

As far as that man is concerned, he is a James McKenzie, I have no view on whether he is the one sought.  In fact it was at that point I suggested benchurian come from the Armed Forces to the Scotland board. 

As to whether he is likely to be the man later serving in the 93rd (Annie you have it correct), I don't think so.  James McKenzie of the 93rd was married in 1877.  The DLI man who joined up in 1882, has no wife and does not say he had previous service in the 93rd.  Apart from that, the various family names don't add up with Jessie,  and the man in Ireland is said to have stayed in Ireland.  (A (another?) James McKenzie joined the 93rd in the early part of 1871 - no details for him.

For me these two are definitely two different James McKenzies and my earlier thought that the answer does not lie in military records stands.

maxD

 Hope that is intelligible!
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Tuesday 18 July 17 19:24 BST (UK)
MaxD - thanks for clarifying that the MyHeritage record does indeed refer to the Durham Light Infantry soldier. As our James McKenzie does not appear to have left Dublin after his marriage in 1877, I agree that this must be a different James McKenzie.
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Tuesday 18 July 17 22:04 BST (UK)
For completeness, assuming nobody was lying about their age, James McKenzie Durham Light Infantry was born in 1862 (his records)..  James McKenzie 93rd Foot was married in 1877 at full age (marriage cert).  The DLI man was 15 at the time!

maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 18 July 17 22:36 BST (UK)
Thanks MaxD for the rundown & am I right in thinking that..
"(A (another?) James McKenzie joined the 93rd in the early part of 1871 - no details for him"
..Could be him although no way of knowing?
What I was wondering was, would it be possible for someone to enlist in the 93rd in Edinburgh?

I now understand what you mean re your "earlier thought that the answer does not lie in military records stands"

Thanks, so Edinburgh seems to be his correct place of birth.

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 19 July 17 09:41 BST (UK)
The 1871 James McKenzie was, according to the transcription, a new recruit to the 93rd, who had joined at Forres and who, when the Army Worldwide Index was collated, was at the depot in Inverness, presumably awaiting training.  The index is collated from a multitude of sources and one would be hard pressed to get to the original source except in one case that you might like to chase down?  One source was the 1871 census so a James McKenzie in a barracks in Inverness is the target!

As to whether a soldier could be recruited for the 93rd in Edinburgh, undoubtedly.  The local connections, pre the 1881 reforms, played much less of a part in the process, even for the highland regiments who recruited all over UK.  It was done by "roaming" recruiting parties who set up in some building or another to entice men into their regiment (although family ties sometimes came into play).  Look at the other James who came from Dundee and served in a Durham regiment.  The 93rd were stationed in Aberdeen at the beginning of 1871 and moved to Edinburgh in July/August so perhaps they had been recruiting there earlier?  They served in UK (including Ireland) throughout the period in question.

To really clutch at straws, one could note that one of the most common terms of engagement to the army was a twelve year commitment, 7 years with the colours (full time, in uniform wherever the regiment was stationed)  followed by 5 years on the reserve, out of uniform in civilian life but committed to recall in the event of war.  A recruit in 1871 on such an engagement would take his uniform off in 1878 which is when the man in Ireland is reported to have "finished" his service.

Perhaps one last fling at the military side could find the recruits place of birth in the 1871 census? 

I have separately suggested to benchurian that all the jigsaw pieces that relate in anyway to the My Heritage man should be swept from the table and the remaining information reviewed, starting from anything known to be solid.

maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 11:12 BST (UK)
Thanks MaxD for your interesting summary!

I have searched so much I now forget what I've looked at & what I haven't but (from memory) I don't think I found a James MacKenzie in Edinburgh (1871) fitting but that may have been prior to discovering his birthdate was out from the initial date of 1860  ???
I know it was prior to the info. of Thomas McKenzie being a sponsor on son James' baptism or I would have searched for both.

Time to re-check that.

Annie

Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 19 July 17 11:48 BST (UK)
Had much the same problem myself!

Have you been able to find an  1871 census record in a barracks in Inverness for a James McKenzie of the 93rd, this would at least show his place of birth?

maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 12:10 BST (UK)
Think I've found them now...

MCKENZIE JOHN
1871
64
685/1 82/ 6
St George
Midlothian

There's a James 15 (1855/56) & Thomas 10 which look to be siblings & possibly a 2nd marriage for John as what appears to be his wife is Elizabeth 48 & there are other siblings so worth OP chasing.

Siblings;

JOHN 18
GILBERT 13
DAVID 10 (twin of Thomas)
JANE 8

Edit to add, it's puzzling James gave his father as John & Thomas but possibly John Thomas was his name?

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 12:33 BST (UK)
Have you been able to find an  1871 census record in a barracks in Inverness for a James McKenzie of the 93rd, this would at least show his place of birth?

None on freecen show any in Inverness-shire as born Edinburgh.

Freecen doesn't have Midlothian (1871) to check free  ::)

Annie

Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 12:42 BST (UK)
James born Midlothian although still no proof it's the correct person yet;

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB5S-JG2

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 13:17 BST (UK)
Hold the fort  ;D

Not found a baptism for James yet but I think this may be his grandparents who he may have been brought up with?

Could this James bap. 1839 be a brother of John?

MCKENZIE JAMES
GEORGE ST

THOMAS MCKENZIE/MARGARET PEARSON FR2422

04/10/1839
685/2 350 509
St Cuthbert's

The John on 1871 with wife Elizabeth being James' father?

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 19 July 17 13:28 BST (UK)
Annie

Your perseverance is impressive, I'd say you are pretty much on to it.

I think also that the recruit in 1871 should also be disregarded.  As I thought initially, it was the family side which has much more chance of having provable (or at least much more persuasive) information.

Well done I'd say.

maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 13:44 BST (UK)
Well....I've got Computer Cramp  ;D

I think the OP needs to check for a Marriage for John & Elizabeth to see if it was a 2nd marriage or at least a death which should give a previous wife after searching later census' to see when he disappears.

There's a marriage on SP which was around 1871 (not too sure of exact yr) but maybe worth a look?

I have to go out for now but will check census' later.

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 19 July 17 13:47 BST (UK)
If my reading of the various posts is correct then Benchurion has found a reference to a James McKenzie born in Dundee on the Myheritage database
If it's in MyHeritage but not on SP it is not to be trusted unless/until an original document has been located. Same as Ancestry and FamilySearch.
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Wednesday 19 July 17 13:51 BST (UK)
Only problem here is that mother is Elizabeth, not Margaret. The 1871 family is that of John McKenzie and Elizabeth Wright. Familysearch shows son James was born in 1855.
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 19 July 17 14:20 BST (UK)
Hang on Forfarian. Overtaken by events.  The man found on My Heritage is (no doubt, documents checked against the original NA document - attestaion papers found) a man born Dundee 1862 who served in the Durham Light Infantry mother's name Jessie aged 15 when the Ireland man (of full age) was married in 1877.  He has been swept from the table of jigsaw pieces.

maxD
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 14:25 BST (UK)
Thanks Isobel,

I did say up thread it may have been a 2nd marriage but obviously not  :(

That quashes my thought then!!

Hmm.... :-\

But if it was James, why would he have given 'possible' g/parents as parents  ???

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 14:36 BST (UK)
Familysearch shows son James was born in 1855.

Isobel,

I can't find it, can you post a link please?

Annie

Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Wednesday 19 July 17 15:52 BST (UK)
I just put in Surname McKenzie with parents John McKenzie and Elizabeth Wright and it brought up a load of children including James. Think the earliest was Elizabeth born 1844.
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Wednesday 19 July 17 15:54 BST (UK)
I am sitting here reading this in absolute awe!!  Whether or not we have found the right family, I want to say a big thank you for all your work.  Amazing stuff!!

Gerry 
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Wednesday 19 July 17 16:16 BST (UK)
For information I am just reposting a snippet of the 1878 marriage certificate originally posted on a previous thread by Anabanana. There was some discussion about what was written under place of residence for Thomas and Margaret and consensus seemed to be that it read Dec'd ( MonicaL made the initial suggestion). This means that the Thomas and Margaret McKenzie who appear as sponsors on baptism records for some of the children are unlikely to be the grandparents. This prompts the question - who were they?
It strikes me that this is the only mention of Margaret as being the name of James mother and obviously Thomas is a different father's name to that given on the previous 1877 civil marriage ( i.e. John, the Engineer.
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 19 July 17 16:27 BST (UK)
I too should express my admiration for the efforts put in on this thread on the family side.  Having in a rather cowardly manner ducked everything that was not to do with the military I have much enjoyed watching the Scottish records being torn apart and reassembled to such good effect.  And although Annie has seen it, I hope the title of one of the relevant military registers showing the coverage of initial letters of names amuses you as much as it did me :

Forfar and Kincardine R.G.A.: SEE - YOU (Jimmy - made the last bit up!)

maxD


Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 18:44 BST (UK)
I just put in Surname McKenzie with parents John McKenzie and Elizabeth Wright and it brought up a load of children including James. Think the earliest was Elizabeth born 1844.
Isobel

Huh, well, so did I but.....

It helps when you put the surname in the 'last name' box & forename in the 'first name' box  ::)

Speed typing not recommended  :D

I was going to do a summary but I'm hanging off for now....

I feel we may have the correct James & brother Thomas (who was son James' sponsor)....

I think finding Thomas in Ireland may iron out something?

There's something about the fact that James gave both John & Thomas as his father's name?

I need contemplating time  ;D

Annie (needing fed)!

I feel it's too coincidental for both names
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 20:22 BST (UK)
Isobel,

I've done a summary as things are becoming too mangled between posts especially with same names etc.

So far....

1839 The bap. I found was 'a' James aged '0' who I thought may have been a brother of John (James' father) who's parents were Thomas McKenzie & Margaret Pearson.

Bap. for John 'father of James' (not found)

Fast forward...

1877 James married Catherine Dorman, Civil ceremony, father was John an engineer
1878 church wedding, parents as Thomas and Margaret from Alba but no occupation.
1889 Son James 1889 bap. Sponsor Thomas McKenzie (could this be brother of John (son of Thomas & Margaret) named on James Jnr's bap?
1901 census gives Edinburgh as place of birth of James
1911 the person completing the census has started to write Edinburgh and then crossed it out

Backtrack to 1861...

From all the census info. kindly put up by anabanana  Reply #8

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=574156.msg4264373#msg4264373

The only one which shows 2 possible siblings James & Thomas (Midlothian) is...

"Union Street
Jno Mackenzie           38  Hd  Mason  b Edinburgh
Elizabeth Mackenzie   49  Wf              b Edinburgh
Elizabeth Mackenzie   16  Dau            b Edinburgh
John Mackenzie   8    Son            b Edinburgh
James Mackenzie   6    Son            b Edinburgh
Gilbert Mackenzie   3    Son            b Edinburgh
Thomas Mackenzie   1    Son            b Edinburgh
David Mackenzie   1    Son            b Edinburgh

(in 1871 James has become a message boy)
(match to familysearch.org - James Mckenzie b 14-11-1855, Edinburgh; John and Elizabeth (Wright) McKenzie)"

1871 The above looks to be the same family as I found on SP (discrepancies to consider)

MCKENZIE at Back Bakers Land, 4, St Cuthbert Edinburgh, St Georges, Midlothian

JOHN 64 685/1 82/ 6  Mason (Unemployed) St George, Midlothian (SP & FS)
Elizabeth 48
John 18
James 15 (1855/56)
Gilbert 13
Thomas 10 (who may have been the sponsor on son James' bap.)?
David 10 (twin of Thomas)
Jane 8

1st marriage, John given as father but on 2nd marriage Thomas is given.

1881 is next step in Scotland as we have James in Ireland by then i.e. he shouldn't be in Scotland
1889 Thomas has moved from Scotland i.e. if he's still around in Scotland in 1891 he's the wrong man (potentially unless he came back)

1901 & 1911 Need to find Thomas in Ireland

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: isobelw on Wednesday 19 July 17 20:36 BST (UK)
Good summary, Rosinish.
Isobel
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 20:45 BST (UK)
Now to distinguish...

1861 Father John a Mason

1871 Mason (Unemployed)

1877 when James marries father John an Engineer

Are those occupations likely to be similar or completely different?

A bit on the + side for a change of career  ???

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 20:53 BST (UK)
'Google'..

Not much help but can we fit him in as either/both......we need to fit pieces  ;D  ??? ::)

"Related jobs
Heavy equipment operator, ironworker, cement mason, carpenter, teamster, hod carrier, construction engineering"

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 21:14 BST (UK)
I can't help but think of all the wasted time looking for info. already found!

If it had been obvious from the start with a link or a suggestion this had been visited before, the topics could have been merged but by #15 when the issue was raised most searches had been re-done  ::)

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 22:14 BST (UK)
I think also that the recruit in 1871 should also be disregarded.  As I thought initially, it was the family side which has much more chance of having provable (or at least much more persuasive) information.

Apologies MaxD..

I forgot to mention that my thinking when enquiring as to 'signing up in Edinburgh' was that it may have been a 'tradition' for older generations & carried down if indeed the ancestors hailed from the north which the surname had always suggested.

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 19 July 17 22:46 BST (UK)
I think this could be Thomas in 1901?

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003805202/

Just bringing this forward as a 'discard'

Even if he had changed religion (which can/does happen) this one doesn't fit as his birth year would be c1852 & we're looking for a 20 December 1859 birth.

Birth info. not known at time of posting original which was from the name of a sponsor on James' son James Jnr's bap.

Annie
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: MaxD on Thursday 20 July 17 09:04 BST (UK)
Annie
[/quote]
I forgot to mention that my thinking when enquiring as to 'signing up in Edinburgh' was that it may have been a 'tradition' for older generations & carried down if indeed the ancestors hailed from the north which the surname had always suggested.
[/quote]

Yes I understood that was the thinking, I just didn't answer it very adequately in my "although family ties sometimes came into play" in my reply.

maxD

I need a teach in on how to put a quote in a reply - by PM preferably!
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 20 July 17 18:35 BST (UK)
I have spent most of the day searching for a James McKenzie born Edinburgh or Midlothian with a mother Margaret with both a John or Thomas as a father (things already searched prior to the yr of birth being nearer 1855) & I'm at a loss as I can't find anything to be a match for a birth year of 1852 - 1857  ::)

Even if he was illegitimate the only one I could find was 1856 with mother Jane McKenzie without using SP but he could have been born under any surname & using his father's surname which was not uncommon for illegitimate children (I have a few myself).

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ54-9Q8

From Isobel's ref. Reply #63 from MonicaL on the other link James' parents were both deceased by 1878

I checked the deaths on SP & Elizabeth died 1872, looks like John did too?

I read over the other link again for any clues from the wealth of info. they've provided...

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=574156.msg4264373#msg4264373

Plenty of scenarios to consider as I have done & pretty much exhausted every avenue almost.

I am currently looking at other possibilities & haven't had time to look at Irish census' & not sure if anyone else has for the Sponsor Thomas?

EDIT to add...

Forgot to say, I'm wondering if James was born under a different surname whether illegitimate or legitimate & if mother married/remarried was John/Thomas the name of a stepfather as I'm still baffled with those 2 forenames & too many scenarios  ::)

Edit..Is it possible James said 'Tom' the 1st time but mistaken as 'John'  :-\

Annie




Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 20 July 17 20:45 BST (UK)
Searched for a James (no surname) 1854 - 1856 Edinburgh (Midlothian)

A few worth considering for the moment. There's others born Leith, Stow, West Calder etc. but have stuck to Edinburgh births with no middle name..

Illegitimate all with a mother Margaret (not looked for later marriages or whether on later census' but keeps it all in 1 place) ..

James Adams 11 June 1855 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5W-4GS

James Stewart 07 Oct 1855 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5W-HFM

James Moffat 30 Dec 1855 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5W-KR9

James Hutchison 25 Jun 1856 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5W-JS3

James Camery 10 Aug 1856 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5W-CQ9

James Cowie 15 Jul 1856 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5W-924

James Slight 19 Dec 1856 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5W-JMG

I found a few James' with a Military connection which is a bit of a long shot but have sent MaxD a PM with details & hoping for a look-up if only to eliminate them as it's the last chance saloon  ::)

Annie






Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: benchurian on Saturday 22 July 17 14:45 BST (UK)
Whil there is a lull in the proceedings, or perhaps an end, I want to express my heartfelt thanks to everyone involved in this search.  If I could I would buy each of you a libation of your choice.  The work done here is unbelivable. It will take me quite a While to go through it all.
Many, many thanks to you all, I am just sorry my mum is not around to see it.

Gerry.   ;)
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: DesmondP on Monday 23 May 22 18:00 BST (UK)
Hi Gerry (benchurian) and all who so diligently gave their time to this thread of last year (2021?). I have just by chance discovered it today and I can honestly say my reaction was WOW!!

I've been trying to trace details relating to James McKenzie for at least the last 15 years. James is my great great grandfather (paternal). Not surprisingly, I never knew him but I do have memories of meeting his son, also James,b.1889 d.1965. He used to visit my parents in Dublin during the 1960s. I was born in 1957. He was my great great uncle. Although he was born and died in Dublin, I recall a distinct Scottish accent and I seem to remember being told that he had worked in Scotland. His sister, Margaret, contrary to some of the comments on this thread, did not die as a child, but became my grandmother b.1885 d.1952 (her sister of the same name died 1883).

In short, I know a lot about the family of James McKenzie and Catherine Dorman, but I still have not been able to crack the mystery of the two differently named marriage certs (re his father John or Thomas) and the various speculations - because that's what they are - concerning how that came about.

I would be greatly interested to hear if you have managed to progress beyond the info you were able to gather as of July 2021.

Desmond
Title: Re: James McKenzie, Dundee
Post by: Gordon163 on Monday 25 July 22 11:56 BST (UK)
Hello,

I don't know if this relevant to your search, but my ggg-grandfather, James McKenzie (1719 -1847) served for 17 years in the Royal Scots Fusiliers. The man you are searching for is not among his direct descendants. However, ggg-grandfather had several brothers, none of whom I have investigated. They came from a place named Ballindarg, near Kirriemuir, as follows:

Thomas (1777); David (1782); Frederick (1784); Alexander (1789).

Your man might be descended from one of them, as ggg-grandfather lived in Dundee, after leaving the Army in 1817.

Regards,

Gordon