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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: birdboot on Wednesday 05 July 17 17:35 BST (UK)
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I am trying to trace John Robertson who was living at 2 Belhaven Terrace, Edinburgh in 1904 with his wife Bessie Duncan. He was a clerk. He was born about 1855, son of Thomas Robertson and Jean/Jane Buick Whitton. I have been unable to trace John or Bessie after 1904, apart from the fact that he had a daughter Susan McNaughton Robertson about 1918.
I would particularly like to find his death certificate, and that of Bessie if possible.
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Is this John Robertson who married Bessie Duncan in Glasgow Kelvin in 1888? Have you got the marriage certificate?
If he married Bessie Duncan in 1888, she must have been getting on a bit when Susan was born 30 years later. However there is no birth of a Susan McNaughton Robertson in the Scottish birth indexes. Nor is there a Susan Robertson, mother Duncan, in the England and Wales birth index as transcribed at https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl.
Have you looked for John and Bessie in the 1901 census? What is your source for them being at 2 Belhaven Terrace in 1904? Did they have any other children and if so what were their names?
There are no deaths of a potentially matching Bessie, Elis/zabeth or Lizzie with both the surname Duncan and the surname Robertson in the Scottish death indexes after 1904. Therefore (unless there is an error in the original record, or she has been misidexed) she did not die in Scotland.
Also, there is no death of a Jane or Jean Whitton or Robertson in the Scottish indexes. Nor is there a Jane or Jean B Robertson who could be John's mother in the death index at FreeBMD.
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Yes, John Robertson married Bessie Duncan in Glasgow on 26 June 1888. I do have the certificate. I also have Jane Robertson's death cert in Morningside 14 October 1904, from Scotland's People, (see attached). She died at 2 Belhaven Terrace and informant was Bessie Robertson, daughter in law.
John and Bessie/Betsy were at 2 Belhaven Terrace in 1901 census, though mother Jean/Jane was then living in Rose Street with daughter Margaret.
John and Bessie had 4 children, Thomas Walker, John, William and Betsy Susan McNaughton. Daughter Betsy was born about 1896 (my mistake, not 1918, that was when she married). She married in Axbridge Somerset, a man called George Hancock. I have now found a death of Betsy Duncan Robertson, her mother, in Axbridge in 1925, but I am still looking for death of John Robertson.
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Ah, that makes a lot more sense.
I see that Betsy was 67 when she died, so she must have been born in 1857/1858. I looked at the 1911 census in England and Wales, but there was no-one listed who could be her (barring illegible returns and misindexing). Maybe someone who has access to the 1911 via a different version of the index might have more luck.
There is a 54-year-old Bessie Robertson in Arbroath in the 1911 census, but there is a 42-year-old Bessie Robertson there in 1901 so I don't think it can be your Bessie Robertson.
If you have them in the 1901 census, and you have the marriage certificate, you must know the names of Bessie's parents and also where both John and Bessie were born? I see from the index that Betsy Susan Mac.... Robertson was born in Edinburgh Newington in 1895 (no wonder I could not find her looking for her with first name Susan!), and that Thomas Walker Robertson was born in Edinburgh Newington in 1888.
John is a bit of an enigma. The 1901 census index says he was 44, which means he was born in 1856/1857, and the 1891 is consistent with this, saying that he was 34. Yet there is no listing of a John Robertson with mother Jane or Jean Whitton in the IGI, which is supposed to be a complete index for 1855 to 1874.
In fact the only John born in 1856-1857 to a mother named Jean or Jane Whitton is the son of Thomas Sword and Jean Whitton, born in Dundee on 16 June 1857. There is no death of a Jane/Jean Whitton or Sword in the index. Could it possibly be that Thomas died, Jane/Jean remarried and her son took his stepfather's name? On the other hand, there is no marriage of a Jane/Jean Whitton or Sword to John Robertson after 1855.
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It's always a good idea to give proper names (if known) in your query e.g. in your original post..
"had a daughter Susan McNaughton Robertson"
Then you have her as...
"Betsy Susan McNaughton"
Annie
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Hi all ,
Is this Jean Buick Whitton's baptism ?
Age a bit out compared to death cert.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBHR-8P5
ev
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Is this Jean Buick Whitton's baptism ?
Age a bit out compared to death cert.
Looks good, even if the age is wrong.
birdboot, can you please tell us where the censuses say that John, Betsy/Bessie and Jane/Jean were born?
Even though I have seen her death cert which you posted, I still did not find Jane's death in the indexes, even when I only put in Robertson and Whitton. Checking again, I see that she is not, as one would expect, indexed as anything other than Robertson. I wonder why this is, and how many other deaths are not correctly indexed?
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Birdboot,
Have you obtained all the birth certs for the children of John Robertson and Bessie Duncan?
Looking at the Robertson family on the 1891 census and 1901 census, some ages appear to be mistranscribed.
1891:
John Robertson 34 Writer, B Dundee Forfar
Betsy Robertson 34 Wife B Monikie, Forfar
Thomas W Robertson 3
John Robertson 7 Months
1901:
John Robertson 44 Law Clerk, B Dundee, Forfar
Betsy Robertson 43 Wife, B Monikie, Forfar
Thomas W Robertson 12
John Robertson 16..... Should read 10yrs
William Robertson 2 (SP index reads 8yrs)
Betsy Robertson 5
Jessie Kirk 18
On a search of the 1901 family census index,(685/5 126/ 3) the child named William reads aged 8yrs.
( others in household show under name index No)
Cross ref with SP, I think this child may be William Duncan Robertson b 1892 and Registered in Newington.
It may be worth checking this birth cert for exact DOB and confirming parentage even to discount him.....
"If" he was their son born in Edinburgh on 25 Feb 1892, there is a wealth of info as this man, who was awarded an MBE, is fairly well documented
( issue is that at that 1901, this child would already have turned 9 yrs but his father was definitely called John Robertson)
At 1916 William Duncan Robertson b Edinburgh on 25 Feb 1892, enlisted with the Royal Navy Reserves.
His papers state that at 1916 his father JOHN Robertson lived at 4 Hopetoun Place. South Queensferry
Further info would only be relevant if William Duncan Robertson was proven to be the son of John Robertson and Bessie Duncan
UPDATED
To include places of birth request by Forfarian
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Thanks for this information and sorry for initial confusion. It is a complicated story and I was trying to keep it simple!
John's mother Jean Buick Whitton had a colourful life and children I believe with three fathers, apparently with older men for whom she was working as a servant. She was baptised at Arbirlot on 21 May 1822 and had a son William with George Livingston(e) on 14 Sept 1843. She then apparently married Edward Johnstone in Dundee on 25 August 1851 (this is confirmed when her son William's marriage in 1860 gave his mother's name as 'Jane Whitton now Johnstone'.
In 1855, Edward and Jane had a son, registered 18 Dec 1855 in Dundee. Unusually, this son had no christian name. I believe this is the person known as John Robertson (see below). On 29 October 1857, Jane/Jean had a daughter Margaret Whitton, registered as illegitimate.
We then come to the Robertson connection. When John Robertson was married in 1888 his parents were stated as Thomas Robertson Road Contractor and Jean 'Carey' Whitton. John's age was given as 32. When Thomas Robertson made a deathbed will in 1879 he left his entire estate to Jane Whitton of 43 Union Street Dundee, and his executor was John Robertson, Law Clerk. Thomas's normal abode was Perth and I think the Union Street address was Jean's. (Incidentally, in another will, of her uncle in 1878, she was said to live at Elsinore Place, Victoria Road, Dundee).
I believe Thomas and Jean never married and that both John and Margaret were their illegitimate children. My theory is that John is the unamed boy registered to Edward Johnstone and Jean in 1855. Although his age on census would suggest 1857 and his age at marriage would suggest 1856, I can't find any feasible alternative. Probably the marriage of Jean and Edward was short-lived and broke up when she formed a relationship with Thomas Robertson.
In 1891 and 1901 Jane Robertson and Margaret Robertson were at Rose Street Edinburgh. I have found Jane's death in 1904 but would like to know what happened to John and Margaret after that.
Regarding the death of John's wife Betsy in Somerset in 1925, I have now found her death cert, which I had forgotten, and it states that she was wife of John Robertson, Solicitor's Clerk (retired), which suggests he was still alive. I wonder if he also lived in Somerset, so no record of death in Scotland? I can't find anything obvious in English death records as yet.
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Ah, that's all much better, and quite clear. It's always best to include everything you know already when you start a topic!
I think you are right about the unnamed child, and a few small discrepancies in age in later censuses are not unusual. However he was born on 15 December 1855 (the date in the IGI at FS is the date of birth, not the date of registration) so he was almost certainly married before he had had his birthday in 1888, in which case 32 is exactly correct. Also, the census was taken around the end of March or beginning of April, so on census day 1891 he would have been 35 years old, because his most recent birthday was in 1890. So if he said he was 34 in the 1891 census, that is only one year out.
There are a few things I would suggest. First, an 1855 birth (or any other) certificate contains lots of information that was never collected in any earlier or later year, so I would recommend getting a copy of it if you don't already have one. It will give you information that should lead to identifying Edward Johnstone and hence what became of him, your biological ancestor.
Second, have you found John in the 1861, 1871 or 1881 censuses? If he was living with Jane/Jean, this should confirm the identification with the unnamed child.
You say that Margaret's birth was registered as illegitimate. How, exactly, was her mother's name listed on her birth certificate?
If you have failed to find John's death in Scotland, I would certainly recommend looking in England, though this isn't going to be easy as it is such a common name, but at least you know that he was about 70 when Betsy died, which will cut down the number of candidates to consider. I can't see a likely candidate in Somerset, however.
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I had more than an idea that Jane Whitton wasn't married to Thomas Robertson
I spotted a census ( think it was 1881) where she lived with her daughter Margaret and her name was entered as Jane Robertson or Whitton
It seems that son Thomas Walker Robertson died in Wiltshire in 1952.
Probate suggests he was unmarried.
If William Duncan Robertson was their son, he married Annie Florence Daws in Devon in 1916 .
Travel docs suggest just one daughter born from the marriage.
The daughter may have been born overseas and this man died in Hatfield, Herts 1983.
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The probate record is mildly interesting.
Robertson Thomas Walker of 10 Mount Pleasant Bradford-on-Avon Wiltshire died 9 March 1952 at Manor Hospital Bath. Probate Bristol 23 June to Leonard Henry Smith press photographer and Frances Louise Neal spinster. Effects £591 15s 7d.
The date of probate was less than four months after the death, so it wasn't a complicated case, and £591 15s 7d is not a large estate (equivalent to about £17,000 in 2017). The executors are not solicitors or bankers or accountants so either he must have named them in his will or they must be close enough kin to persuade the court to grant them probate.
If there is a will, it would clarify that.
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Thanks again, Forfarian and Anne. I did not have the Thomas Walker and William information. I did find some of the Hancocks in the Blackburn area (where Betsy the daughter died).
I am not sure what you mean regarding the birth cert of 1855. Will there be more than on the register? I am not actually descended from John, but from Jean's father Robert Whitton. Just trying to complete a family history of all Robert's children. Jean's story has always fascinated me because it is so colourful. For example, I wonder what happened to the money, about 15,000 in today's values, that she inherited from Thomas, as she apparently continued to be a charwoman/washerwoman.
Regarding Margaret, her mother's name is Jane Whitton, Washerwoman, though the next column for signature says Jean Whitton. Jane's address looks like 104 Hawkhills, Dundee.
I previously found a possible census for Jean in 1861, a servant to Emily Durners(it looks like) and two sisters in Dundee. Age is right, but birth says Alyth. However, the sisters and all three servants just have ditto under Emily's Alyth, so could have been an enumerator being careless.
I haven't found Jean in 1871, nor a John and Jean that looked probable.
Incidentally, your query made me revisit my notes and I have been reminded that there is a burial in May 1850 in Dundee for Jane Whitton, 5 months, daughter of Jane Whitton. I wonder if this is the previous 'child of marriage' shown deceased on the male Johnstone birth of 1855?
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I am not sure what you mean regarding the birth cert of 1855. Will there be more than on the register?
What do you mean by 'the register'? If you have an image of the handwritten document, that is it. It should tell you where and when Edward and Jane (said they) were born, their ages, when and where they were married, how many other children they had had, and how many of them were still living.
Regarding Margaret, her mother's name is Jane Whitton, Washerwoman, though the next column for signature says Jean Whitton. Jane's address looks like 104 Hawkhills, Dundee.
That is interesting, because from what you have told us I would have expected it to say Jane/Jean Johnstone, M(aiden) S(urname) Whitton. The next column is the signature of the person who registered the birth. So it looks as if Jane/Jean has, for some reason, reverted to using just her maiden surname. It's not unusual for a Jane/Jean to be formally named Jane, but to be generally known as, and even sign herself, Jean, so I wouldn't read anything into the difference in name between the columns.
Hawkhill is a main street on the west side of the city centre of Dundee.
Incidentally, your query made me revisit my notes and I have been reminded that there is a burial in May 1850 in Dundee for Jane Whitton, 5 months, daughter of Jane Whitton. I wonder if this is the previous 'child of marriage' shown deceased on the male Johnstone birth of 1855?
Possibly. But if so this Jane shouldn't have been listed as a child of the marriage, because she must have been born before Jane/Jean married Edward Johnstone.
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Sorry, I thought I had posted the image of the birth!
As mentioned, Jean is a complicated lady, so perhaps she had an illegitimate daughter in (about) Jan 1850 and then another one with (possibly) Edward Johnstone between the time of their marriage and the birth in 1855.
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Sorry, I thought I had posted the image of the birth!
Ah. I think, reading it all, that you are right and the baby who died in 1850 was her only child before the unnamed boy who must be John.
I do wonder what became of Edward, though!
Incidentally, the birth immediately above his is one of mine. James, son of James Guthrie and Elizabeth Drimmie. This baby grew up to be a jute spinner and merchant, and a major in the TVA, which I think was the equivalent to the Territorial Army now. He married, but had no family as far as I know, and died in Broughty Ferry in 1927.
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Thanks again. I think it is really odd that the only member of the Robertson family I can find in 1911 census is Thomas Robertson, who was a Commercial Traveller Margarine, visitor to Mr & Mrs Burt in Weymouth. This is in spite of looking in the Ancestry records, that should cover English and Scottish censuses.
In the census I found for Thomas, he had a wife Isabella, born Forfar, and had been married only a year. I cannot find this marriage in Scotland, or in England, which is odd. However, I am starting to think the whole family may have moved to England. That still doesn't explain why they don't seem to be in English census records either.
I also have some notes of information I obtained from a grandson of Betsy Susan M and he believed he had been told that Betsy and her brother William ran a shop, possibly antiques, in Edinburgh. Her husband George Hancock was in the navy and he met her whilst visiting Edinburgh. As they didn't marry until 1918 or 1919, that might place her and William in Edinburgh after 1911. I don't know how reliable that info is though.
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Hi all what about this probate record John Robertson of Paradise Villa Hewish Somersetshire died 4.June 1933 Royal Infirmary Bristol ..Probate 28 August 1933 Thomas Walker Robertson commercial traveller ..
England &Wales death index
John Robertson
Birth year abt 1857
Date of Registration June 1933
Place Bristol Gloucestershire
Age 76
Rosie
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This could be the marriage for Thomas Robertson
Jan--Mar 1911
Bristol Gloucestershire
Spouse Isabella W Mann
Census Records for Isabella Mann in Forfar Angus ties in with Isabella in the later census
Rosie
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Great finds, Rosie! Well done.
I wonder why Thomas and Isabella were boarding with the Burts - on honeymoon and boarding there, or were they related?
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Yes, great finds Rosie. I am sure you have found the right man.
Re Thomas and Isabella, I also wonder why they married in Bristol rather than in Scotland. It looks as though the whole family moved to England after 1904.
Thanks both for your help.
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Birdboot,
Still uncertain if William Duncan Robertson was the son of this couple but, if he was, his Military Docs place his father in South Queensferry at 1916 ( 12yrs after 1904 that you are quoting)
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Many thanks Anne. I first read William's age in 1901 census as 2 and used a load of credits on Scotland's People going through 16 possibles - then I realised that age was probably 8 ::) Sure enough, I found birth of William Duncan Robertson in 1892 to John and Betsy.
I have not seen the military docs so will have a look at those and also follow up the South Queensferry lead. There are lots of WIllm Duncan Robertsons on SP, do the military records give his age - which would be about 23?
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Birdboot,
The Militarry record does not just give his age,it gives his Date Of Birth !
Therefore he is the same man.
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Thank you again Anne. I see that his occupation was naval outfitter. This correlates with what I was told some years ago by a descendant, ie that William and his sister Betsy Susan McNaughton had a shop in Edinburgh. Betsy married a naval chap, whom my informant had told me had met her whilst visiting her shop in Edinburgh.
So thank you, the pieces of the jigsaw fit nicely!
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William became an engineer and from other bits and pieces it seems he was awarded an OBE and perhaps also an MBE
There is a fair amount of travel info for him, his wife and daughter which includes....
1924 the family travelled to Bermuda and returned in 1927
1928, his wife and daughter only travelled from the UK to Brazil
At 1931, he his wife and 11 yr old daughter travelled from India to the UK.
Their last permanent residence was in India.
I can't find a corresponding birth in the UK for the daughter named as Florence Duncan Robertson bc 1920/21
Unless her mother's name of Daws is mistrancribed on her birth record,she may have been born overseas.
As previously posted, William died in Were, Herts in Jul 1983.
Ancestry has an index showing that a death notice appeared in The Times dated 28 Jul 1983 which is headed:
William Duncan MBE Robertson.
It's only the index that is given. There is no link to the article and I don't have access to this via any subscription
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It's a death notice in the classified ads, not a full obituary.
"ROBERTSON, William Duncan MBE passed away in his 92nd year on 27th July, greatly missed by his daughter Mrs F Erskine-Murray and son-in-law, of Cautherly Lane, Amwell, Ware, Herts and also by his grand-daughters, great-grandsons and friends. Funeral at Great Amwell Church on Saturday 30th July at 11 a.m., no flowers please." Source Citation: "Deaths." Times [London, England] 28 July 1983: 26. The Times Digital Archive. Web. 11 July 2017.
Odd that he should be described as MBE if he also had an OBE; OBE is a higher honour than MBE.
There seem to have been two daughters and a son who died in infancy. I can't name them because the daughters may still be living but you can look them up at https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl for yourself.
There are three births of Erskine-Murray, mother Robertson
Unnamed male, birth and death in Birmingham, 1941
Daughter, birth 1942, Birmingham
Daughter, birth 1945, Birmingham
Marriages
Daughter in Ware, 1965
Daughter in London, 1975
Florence Duncan Erskine-Murray died on 8 June 2010, according to the Calendar or Probate.
I can't find the marriage of Florence Duncan Robertson but according to the notice in 'The Times' of their daughter's engagement he was Mr S Erskine-Murray. And I haven't found his death.
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Thanks for this information. I am not certain that we have the right man with these later findings. I am aware that there were a host of William Duncan Robertsons on Scotlands People and I did a bit of searching in the London Gazette for the MBE. First I found a person of that name who had been promoted to Flying Officer RAF in 1943, then later found one of that name awarded an MBE (Overseas) in 1968, where he was described as a Group Captain. But in 1968 our William would be 75, so I suspect the RAF William is not our man.
Is there anything that links the records in Birmingham and Ware definitely with our William? Have I missed something?
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The death index entry for William Duncan Robertson who died in 1983 says that he was born on 25 February 1892.
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Aha! They are on www.thepeerage.com.
Florence Duncan Robertson, daughter of William Duncan Robertson, married Arthur Sydney Elibank Erskine-Murray (1909-16 Feb 2002) on 29 June 1940. They had two daughters, one of whom has three sons.
Lord Elibank of Ettrick Forest was/is an Erskine-Murray. Arthur Sydney's great-great-grandafther was the 7th Lord Elibank, and his nephew was the 13th Lord Elibank.
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So much information, I am struggling to keep up! I see that William married Annie Florence Daws at Devonport, while in the RNVR, on 6 April 1916.
I have found him and Annie on the 1939 census, living at 206 Wingletye Lane, Hornchurch, with one other hidden record, presumably their daughter. William was recorded as Director of Engineering Works and it was noted that he was abroad.
It is amazing to think that the grandson of an Edinburgh washerwoman/char lady should go on to be an MBE and marry into the peerage. I am trying to find the citation for the MBE, which might tell me more about what sort of engineering he was doing (possibly contracting to the government?).
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I haven't had any success searching for the MBE citation. There are several William Duncan Robertsons on the London Gazette site but none that looks like my man. The closest match was a safety officer at Enfield Rolling Mills in 1967, but as William was Director of Engineering Works in 1939 this job title seems unlikely.
Anyway, the main thing is that you have helped me find out what happened to John Robertson after 1904. I will see if I can find out more about how he came to be in South Queensferry in 1916.
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you have helped me find out what happened to John Robertson after 1904. I will see if I can find out more about how he came to be in South Queensferry in 1916.
It occurs to me that 1916 was in the middle of the war, and there is, or was, a major naval base at South Queensferry. Maybe he was serving in the Navy, or working there on naval vessels?
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John's address was 4 Hopetoun Road and I found a naval outfitters at 4 Hopetoun Road in 1914. If you follow this link down to near the bottom 'Local Shops' there is a photo of Colisseum Outfitters in 1914 with a woman outside. Could it be the sister Betsy who I was told worked at the shop with William?
As the caption says, this shop was where Allium is today, and Allium is at 4a Hopetoun Road.
http://queensferry-at-war.weebly.com/queensferry-history (http://queensferry-at-war.weebly.com/queensferry-history)
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Just an update on this thread. I have now found the records of son John, born 31 August 1890. He was recorded in the military in 1911 and there is an enlistment record in the Kings Own Scottish Borderers in 1914. He suffered shell shock in France in 1915 and was eventually discharged in 1916 as "permanently unfit".
He does not appear to have married and in 1939 he was with the Spring family at Holland Park Mews in Kensington. His occupation was canvasser for a newspaper. I have not yet found his death.
Jim