RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: Wodgemac on Friday 07 July 17 13:43 BST (UK)
-
I've been struggling for over ten years with the Welsh side of my family tree and I've followed a few wrong leads.
I know this is a long shot because of the surname, but any help would be greatly appreciated.
My Great Grandfather Griffith Henry Jones was born in Manchester in 1867, (I don't have any birth records just census).
The 1881 census in Manchester states that his father was Griffith Jones 54 a labourer (not employed) and his mother was Eliza 57, both born in Denbighshire. He also had a brother William 30 born in Denbighshire and a sister Harriet 19 born in Manchester.
I can't find the family anywhere during the 1871 census.
I have found a record of a Griffith Jones marrying an Elizabeth Williams in 1846 in St. Asaph, but I'm not sure if that's them.
Another possible white elephant is that I found a birth record for Griffith Jones in 1866 in Hulme, Manchester with his father Griffith, but his mother is named as Ann. The year and the area could possibly be true, but obviously Ann isn't.
Could anybody possibly give me any advice on searching for such a common surname, or point me in the right direction for Welsh records
Kind regards
Richard McGrorey
-
Bit time consuming but you could look on the GRO birth index for the 3 children and cross reference the mothers maiden names to see if there is a common match for all 3 :-\
-
Hi
Have you considered the family living at Monks Coppenhall in 1861 :-\
RG09/2616 f24 p42
Griffith Jones 29 occ Puddler bn Wassell, Denbighshire
Eliza 36 bn Coven, Denbighshire
William 10 bn Coven, Denbighshire
Alfred 6 bn Tunstall, Staffordshire
Robert 3 bn Monks Coppenhall, Cheshire
John 9 months bn M.C. Cheshire
Sarah 9 months bn M.C. Cheshire
Poss births for John/Sarah
Births Sep 1860
JONES John Nantwich 8a 268
JONES Sarah Nantwich 8a 268
GRO index gives mmn WILLIAMS
-
My Great Grandfather Griffith Henry Jones was born in Manchester in 1867, (I don't have any birth records just census).
The 1881/1891 census give Openshaw as place of birth.
Ancestry links to the birth in Sep 1868 West Derby mothers name Parry.
-
The family are in Openshaw in 1871 ;D
RG10/3983 f23 p40
Griffith 40 occ Puddler
Elizth 47
William 20
Alfred 16
Robert 13
Sarah 11
Harriet 8
Griffith 5
-
Well there we go :D
A family tree has mother Elizabeth death in 1878 so could the Eliza in 1881 be a second wife?
-
1871 Census 18 Libby Street Openshaw,
Griffith Jones age 40 born Wales
Eliza Jones 47 "
William 20 born Wales
Alfred 16 born Staffordshire
Robert 13 born Crewe
Sarah 11 born Crewe
Harriet 8 born Openshaw
Griffith 5 born Openshaw
-
Possible family 1851 Census Cefn Mawr, Ruabon, Denbighshire
Griffith Jones born 1829 Hope Flintshire
Eliza Jones born 1825 Ruabon, Denbighshire
William Jones (3 months born) 1851 Ruabon, Denbighshire
-
My Great Grandfather Griffith Henry Jones was born in Manchester in 1867, (I don't have any birth records just census).
The 1881/1891 census give Openshaw as place of birth.
Ancestry links to the birth in Sep 1868 West Derby mothers name Parry.
Could this be Harriets
JONES, HARRIET mmn WILLIAMS
1862 June Quarter
WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 267
and possibly Griffiths :-\
JONES, GRIFFITH mmn WILLIAMS
1866 June Quarter
WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 306
-
Thank you everybody for your quick responses.
I have seen some of the census's but was never sure with the locations, although that would be a feasible route from Denbighshire to Manchester.
Not sure how Griffith and Harriet could be born in West Derby though if they stated that they were born in Manchester on the census, but the names and dates to add up?
I have also seen an 1841 census in Denbighshire (Ruabon I think) where an Elizabeth Williams is living with a Jones family, one of which is Griffiths and he is a few years younger than her, but again i wasn't sure if this was the same Griffiths!! And I can't remember where I've seen it now?
The twins are interesting, because to my knowledge I haven't heard of any twins in my family!!
-
I agree that the West Derby births are unlikely. There is a Griffith Jones of the right age on 1871 census West Derby, ???
-
Aargh, I thought my Irish ancestors were hard enough to research.
I can no longer find the 1841 census with Griffith Jones and Elizabeth Williams in Denbighshire, nor can I find the record of their marriage in St. Asaph in 1846...
Maybe the West Derby birth records are another red herring...
-
I can no longer find the 1841 census with Griffith Jones and Elizabeth Williams in Denbighshire
Not sure if this helps or hinders but quite a lot of the 1841 for the wider Wrexham area (including Ruabon) is missing. (Lots of threads on this)
Gadget
-
nor can I find the record of their marriage in St. Asaph in 1846...
Free BMD index has it under the Jun quarter vol 27 page 307
but there are 4 brides and 4 grooms - 3 Jones and 3 Williams
-
The North Wales BMD is showing Griffith Jones possibly marrying an Eliza Williams, Wrexham St Giles, 1850.
The parish records show that they married on August 26th 1850 at the above church. Both of full age and living in Bersham.
Griffith is recorded as a forgeman (which would fit with the puddler in the 1861 census). His father recorded as William Jones,blacksmith.
Eliza is recorded as a cottager. Her father is lsited as John Williams, butcher.
Gadget
-
Just to say that it is unlikely to find any of those mentioned on the marriage entry on the 1841 because the Wrexham area records are missing - apart form a small part of Wrexham town itself as Clwyd FHS transcripts . I have these but can't do a search at the moment and will look later. They aren't available online to my knowledge.
Gadget
-
The transcription of Eliza and William's birthplace on the 1861 as 'Coven' is written as Cavan on the page image. I would think that this is really Cefn (Cefn Mawr) a township in Ruabon parish.
It is pronounced as Cevan or Cevin or even Cavan. Most locals would pronounce it as Cevan (I do ;D ). This would tie in with the 1851 census that Ellenmai found.
Can't find any baptisms that fit for either Eliza or William so far.
Gadget
-
I'm wondering if the Wassell on the 1861 for Griffith's birthplace is Gwersyllt - on the outskirts of Wrexham. Phonetically similar! Also, not far from Hope, as listed on the 1851.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Gwersyllt
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/FLN/Hope
Gadget
-
The transcription of Eliza and William's birthplace on the 1861 as 'Coven' is written as Cavan on the page image. I would think that this is really Cefn (Cefn Mawr) a township in Ruabon parish.
It is pronounced as Cevan or Cevin or even Cavan. Most locals would pronounce it as Cevan (I do ;D ). This would tie in with the 1851 census that Ellenmai found.
Thank you Gadget - I did wonder where it was
Rosie
-
I was born and brought up in the area, Rosie - other locals are WRJones and Wilcoxon and maybe others.
-
Local knowledge always helps and it is educational for the likes of me ;D
-
;D
Think this might be Griffith's baptism - father William, blacksmith corresponding to marriage entry~
Hope, Flintshire
Oct 6 1830 Griffith Jones, son of William (blacksmith) and Hannah of Caergwrley(Caergwrle)
Most of this info from booklets produced by Clwyd FHS and online.
Gadget
PS - local saying 'live in Hope die in Caergwrle' ;D
-
:D
Found Eliza's baptism - in my non-conformist files:
Llangollen Wesleyan Circuit:
Bpt 23 May 1823 Elisa Williams.
Parents - John Williams (butcher) and Sarah
Abode - Cefn Mawr, Ruabon parish
Gadget
Added - I notice that the twins were names John and Sarah :)
-
I was born and brought up in the area, Rosie - other locals are WRJones and Wilcoxon and maybe others.
I tried to find the 1861 census to have a look , but couldn't find it.
-
I tried to find the 1861 census to have a look , but couldn't find it.
Rosie found it a few pages ago : 1861 is Monks Coppenhall,Nantwich/Crewe RG09/2616/24/42
-
I must be missing something, I searched for all the names a found zilch.
I never have success with using the ref details, but this seems to be the right pages but there is no 42.
-
1861 -He has been transcribed as Griffith Jokes (It does look something like that on the original ::) )
-
OK, so that's why my search for Jones might not have picked him up. I always use the details people give me .
I have trawled through the pages and got the entry.
Denbyshire , Wassell.
Denbyshire , Cavan.
I can understand Cefn may sound like Cavan, but Wassell ???
-
OK, so that's why my search for Jones might not have picked him up. I always use the details people give me .
FindMyPast have it as Jones, it was only when I was searching for it on Ancestry against the reference number I had given after you queried it that I saw they had it transcribed as Jokes. ;D
-
I interpreted Wassall as Gwersyllt but found his baptism in Hope:
;D
Think this might be Griffith's baptism - father William, blacksmith corresponding to marriage entry~
Hope, Flintshire
Oct 6 1830 Griffith Jones, son of William (blacksmith) and Hannah of Caergwrley(Caergwrle)
Also:
:D
Found Eliza's baptism - in my non-conformist files:
Llangollen Wesleyan Circuit:
Bpt 23 May 1823 Elisa Williams.
Parents - John Williams (butcher) and Sarah
Abode - Cefn Mawr, Ruabon parish
Gadget
Added - I notice that the twins were names John and Sarah :)
This fits with their marriage that I found earlier.
The North Wales BMD is showing Griffith Jones possibly marrying an Eliza Williams, Wrexham St Giles, 1850.
The parish records show that they married on August 26th 1850 at the above church. Both of full age and living in Bersham.
Griffith is recorded as a forgeman (which would fit with the puddler in the 1861 census). His father recorded as William Jones,blacksmith.
Eliza is recorded as a cottager. Her father is lsited as John Williams, butcher.
Gadget
-
Wow, thank you for your hard work and help.
I have a rough idea of the area, because I do swift water rescue training in Llangollen with the fire service, so we drive past Ruabon on the way, I've always meant to call in and see where my ancestors lived. Hopefully I will do, when I have time one day.
I'm away from home at the moment, but when I return I will search out the 1841 census I had printed up with Griffiths Jones and Elizabeth Williams. I just can't remember exactly what town it was...
Will it be just as difficult finding out their mothers maiden names and going back another generation?
Once again thank you very much for your help.
Kind regards
Richard
-
It's a bit more difficult to get mother's maiden name before civil reg in 1837 as we have to rely on marriages and other sources.
If they were in the Wrexham area in 1841, they won't be listed on the census so the ones you found may not be them :-\
Gadget
Added - re the 1841 record that you saw - Griffith would be circa 10 yrs and Eliza 15-17 yrs
-
This might help:
Think I might have found Griffith's parents in 1851
HO107/2502/248/36
Pont Faden, Gwersyllt, Hope
William Jones, 61, Smith, b. Hope
Hannah, 46, b. Hope
John, s, lbourer, b. Hope
Harriet, d, 18
Sarah, d, 16
Isabella, d, 13
William, s, 11
Robert, s 7
Hannah, d, 5
Jane, Grandd, 3, b. Wrexham
All children apart from John, b. Gresford. Not sure if the 1841 for Gresford is available.
Probably married in the Hope area - will check.
Gadget
-
I found this family in 1851 , they are at Pont Vaden, Gwersyllt. This is the bridge that crosses the river Alyn by the New Inn, it`s the border between Denbighshire and Flintshire.
Pont Vaden was quite a little industrial area, a James Barlow, Iron Master, late of
Gwersyllt Iron Works near Wrexham died 20th November 1856 aged 56 is buried in Chester.
There was a also a wire works.
It`s only a stone`s throw from Hope and Caergwrle. It might be worth checking out.
When the pubs were closed on a Sunday, most of Gwersyllt walked a mile or so across the border to Flintshire for a pint. My own parents and most of my family included, a bottle of pop and packet of crisps in the back yard was a treat.
Pont Vaden , Gwersyllt.
William Jones smelter ? 41 b Hope
Hannah Jones 44 b Hope
John Jones 26 b Hope
Harriet Jones 18 b Gresford
Sarah Jones 16 b Gresford
Isabella Jones 13 b Gresford
William Jones 11 b Gresford
Robert Jones 7 grandson b Wrexham
Hannah Jones 5
Jane Jones 3
-
Gadget, you just beat me on the draw ;D
-
Fastest gun in the West, me ;D ;D ;D
Would be grateful for a bit of help checking the GRO for mother's maiden name of Robert and Hannah - I've managed to find possible surnames - Hewett, Lloyd, Jones - that are in both listings but my laptop is playing up yet again and is on a go slow ::)
-
Wilcoxon - I see you have
Robert Jones 7 grandson b Wrexham
He's actually son and born Gresford. It's Jane who's a granddaughter and b. Wrexham
Ps- also William is 61 not 41.
-
Oops.
Robert 1844 +- 1 year
GRABIEL sic
MORRIS
WILLIAMS
WOODHALL
DAVIES
LLOYD
HEWETT
JONES
PRITCHARD
HUMPHRIES
TILSTON
-
Only marriage/banns coming up so far is 1830, Wrexham - Hannah Roberts :-\
-
Wilcoxon and I have been trying to find a mmn from possible birth reg of the children of Hannah and William Jones. Not found a possible so far. However I've found the baptism of the probably first child, John:
Hope
Oct 23 1825 John Jones, son of William (Blacksmith) and Hannah of Caergwerley(!)
So, need to look for a marriage before then.
Gadget
-
I found William and Hannah still in Cefn y bedd.
There is a good age gap between William and Hannah, I wonder if he was a widower when he married Hannah.
Cefn Y Bedd 1861
William Jones 70 blacksmith b Hope, Flintshire
Hannah Jones 55 Hope, Flintshire
Harriet Tudor dau marr 25 b Gresford,
Robert Jones 17 b Gresford
Hannah Jones 15 paper cutter b Gwersyllt
Jane Jones 13 b Wrexham
William had died between 1861 and 1871
This is still the same area, on the census Little Liverpool is entered on the same page. The site of the old Wire Mill is still there.
1871 Old Wire Mill, Gwersyllt
Hannah Jones widow 64 b Llay
Harriet Tudor dau marr 34 paper maker b Llay
Ezra Tudor grandson 9 b Mold.
-
I found the 1861 census, but not the 1851 or 71 census. i can't find any relevant census for John Williams either.
I really appreciate your help, thank you very much.
Is there a pub that you think William and Griffiths would've frequented in the area that I might pay a visit to? My girlfriend is from Anglesey so we can call in for a pit stop on the way back home.
Ahh a bottle of coca cola and a packet of crisps whilst waiting for my dad to have a pint... Childhood memories after visiting the local scrapyard. Nice to see I wasn't the only one being spoilt in such a way.
;) :)
-
http://www.hollybushpub.co.uk/index.html
The only one close is the Holly Bush, . The New Inn and the Olde English Gentleman were much nearer , but only the New Inn still stands and is now a private house. The name is still outside.
-
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4586069/4586072/24/
Wrexham Advertiser 15th February 1858
CEFNYBEDD. SUPPER AT THE HOLLY BUSH On Saturday night last, the 6th instant, the wireworkers in the employ of Messrs. Eddelston and Price, together with a number of friends, sat down to a sumptuous supper at the Holly Bush, Cefnvbedd, the chair being occupied by Mr. Wm. Barratt.
It`s possible Griffith worked for Eddleston and Price.
-
It`s possible Griffith worked for Eddleston and Price.
Not sure about that, Wilcoxon, as he was in Cefn Mawr in 1851 and Crewe in 1861 :-\
Not sure about the pubs in Cefn - WRJones might know ;D
-
Richard -
have you read George Borrow's , Wild Wales? It has some rather vivid descriptions of the Wrexham area, Cefn, etc. on his way to Llangollen. Worth reading to get a feel for the rapid industrialisation and how the ordinary folk lived in those days ~
http://georgeborrow.org/literature/wildWales.html
Gadget
-
Re Borrow's book~
I've just found the quote I was looking for from an old website of mine (via Wayback Machine)
George Borrow describes the Cefn Bychan/Cefn Mawr area of Ruabon parish in the account of his travels in Wales (Wild Wales, 1862)
I debouched upon the Llangollen road near to the tramway leading to the collieries. Two enormous sheets of flame shot up high into the air from ovens, illuminating the spectral chimneys as high as steeples, also smoky buildings, and grimy figures moving about. There was a clanging of engines, a noise of shovels and a falling of coals truly horrible … Advancing along the tramway I obtained a nearer view of the hellish buildings, the chimneys and the demonic figures. It was just such a scene as one of those described by Ellis Wynn in his Vision of Hell. (Fontana edition, 1982, page 317)
-
I`m totally confused now. You said .
This might help:
Think I might have found Griffith's parents in 1851
HO107/2502/248/36
Pont Faden, Gwersyllt, Hope
William Jones, 61, Smith, b. Hope
Hannah, 46, b. Hope
John, s, lbourer, b. Hope
Harriet, d, 18
Sarah, d, 16
Isabella, d, 13
William, s, 11
Robert, s 7
Hannah, d, 5
Jane, Grandd, 3, b. Wrexham
All children apart from John, b. Gresford. Not sure if the 1841 for Gresford is available.
Probably married in the Hope area - will check.
Gadget
-
It`s possible Griffith worked for Eddleston and Price.
Not sure about that, Wilcoxon, as he was in Cefn Mawr in 1851 and Crewe in 1861 :-\
Not sure about the pubs in Cefn - WRJones might know ;D
The New Inn, Holly Bush are in Cefn y bedd. Not Cefn , Ruabon.
-
I`m totally confused now. You said .
Think I might have found Griffith's parents in 1851
Yes, but Griffith and Eliza had married in 1850 (Wrexham St Giles) and were living in Cefn mawr in 1851 and then moved to Coppenhall (Crewe) and on to Manchester - see lots of earlier posts on this thread
Possible family 1851 Census Cefn Mawr, Ruabon, Denbighshire
Griffith Jones born 1829 Hope Flintshire
Eliza Jones born 1825 Ruabon, Denbighshire
William Jones (3 months born) 1851 Ruabon, Denbighshire
Also, I was referring to pubs in Cefn Mawr given he was living there ;D
-
Ah, right, I `m still looking at Griffith, not his son William.
Is there a pub that you think William and Griffiths would've frequented in the area that I might pay a visit to? My girlfriend is from Anglesey so we can call in for a pit stop on the way back home.
-
What I'm saying is that Griffith probably left the family home fairly early on. He and Eliza married in Wrexham in 1850 and Eliza was from Cefn Mawr, where Griffith and she were in 1851 (aged 20-ish) . Thus he was more likely to use ale houses (if he did frequent them) in Cefn Mawr than Hope.
I think Richard was really looking for pubs/ale houses in the area that were there in the early 1800s (1830 -1850s).
-
Ah, right, I `m still looking at Griffith, not his son William.
Is there a pub that you think William and Griffiths would've frequented in the area that I might pay a visit to? My girlfriend is from Anglesey so we can call in for a pit stop on the way back home.
OK, so I have this the wrong way round. Griffith has moved to Cefn Mawr but William is still in Cefn y Bedd where the Holly Bush is located. It`s a short walk from the area he and Hannah lived. I suppose Griffith may have gone there if he lived in the area before he moved.
(I live close to where William was in 1851 and often go to Trac Mon in Anglesey , the Holly Bush is on route to Mold / Northop where we join the A55)
-
Moving on to Eliza William's family - from mariage cert, her father was a John Williams, butcher, and she was born Cefn Mawr/Ruabon according to censuses and baptism (Llangollen Wesleyan Chapel, from Blackwell data). Mother was Sarah.
1851
Cefn Mawr, Ruabon
HO107/2503/177/1
John Williams, 60, butcher, b. Llangollen
Sarah, 60, b. -do-
Elizabeth, 20, b. Ruabon*
Harriet, 17, b. -do-
William Roberts, visitor, surgeon, b. Caernarvonshire
*Note that Elizabeth Williams was one of the witnesses at Griffith and Eliza's marriage
It looks as if Sarah died before 1861 as John is with his daughter and son in law in Cefn mawr:
1861
Cefn Mawr, Ruabon
RG09/4282/6/5
John Davies, 47, coal miner, b. Cerigydridion
Mary, wife, 47, b. Llangollen
John, 20, coal miner, b. Ruabon
Ellen, 14, b. Ruabon
Ann, 8, b. -do-
Sarah, 6, b. -do-
John Williams, father in law, widower, 72, butcher, b. Llangollen
At the moment, I can find 3 possible marriages of a John Williams to a Sarah in Llangollen parish 1805-1815 : Sarah Edwards, Sarah Jones and Sarah Parry
Not sure if Methodists frequented hostelries in those days but the Hand Hotel, Llangollen would have been a possible for John ;D ;D ;D
Gadget
-
The most likely death burial for Sarah is Nov 1851.
Burial, Ruabon ~17th Nov 1851 Sarah Williams, of Cefn Mawr, aged 62.
It looks as if both John and Sarah rounded their ages down in the 1851 census.
Will see if I can find a baptism* for her.
* found possibles - Sarah Edwards and Sarah Jones
-
A bit more ~
Llangollen - Weslyan
12 Nov 1820 Samuel, John Williams, butcher, and Sarah, Cefn Mawr
Also - very tempted by this one at Cefn Mawr Weslyan
Born 24 Feb 1830 bpt 16 March 1837 Elizabeth Williams, daughter John Williams and Sarah (Sarah entered as mn Edwards - daughter of Samuel and Mary Edwards).
Elizabeth is right age for the one on the 1851 and witness to 1850 marriage.
This last one on the basis that there was some evidence of use of family names, so son Samuel and an older daughter called Mary.
Will investigate some more later today :)
-
Gadget, I haven't read the George Borrows book, but I shall look for it, although from reading the extract you posted it sounded a very dark place, maybe that's why Griffith and Eliza left? Although I can't imagine moving to the industrial city of Manchester wouldn't have been much better??
I shall definitely pay the Holly Bush and the Hand hotel a visit some time in the near future. You can't beat a good pit stop, but I shall have the missus with me to order in Welsh lol...
Her mothers maiden name is Williams, so I'm hoping somewhere down the line I don't come across a link!!!
I'm slightly confused about John and Sarah Williams having an Eliza and and Elizabeth in the family? Wouldn't Eliza be short for Elizabeth?
-
I'm slightly confused about John and Sarah Williams having an Eliza and and Elizabeth in the family? Wouldn't Eliza be short for Elizabeth?
Not necessarily. We know that Eliza's parents were the John and Sarah (from baptism (1823) and marriage entry (1850)) and Elizabeth is down as daughter on the 1851 (b.c. 1830) and is baptised with them as parents and is a witness to Eliza and Griffith's marriage. It might well be from family names - one called Eliza and one called Elizabeth.
I've got more info on the Sarah Edwards theory but it's on my main computer - it looks highly possible at the moment.
PS - note a sister Harriet on the 1851 :)
PPS - someone else has found sisters Eliza and Elizabeth - http://www.babynamewizard.com/forum/eliza-and-elizabeth-same-same-but-different
-
Aah I see about the Eliza Elizabeth, I have an Irish ancestor who was called Elizabeth, but on some records she was either Eliza or Bessie.
Yes I've noticed Harriet and am currently trying to research the brothers and sisters of both Eliza and Griffith, to see if that gives me any clues.
Can I ask where you got the marriage record for Eliza and Griffith and the other baptism records please? Are they online?
-
Now found further proof that Sarah's maiden name was Edwards:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1RR-X58
Info mainly via FamilySearch, Clwyd FHS booklets and CDs. Also there's considerable info that reproduces these on FindMyPast and Ancestry (pay sites).
-
If info on Sarah Edwards is correct (see Elizabeth's bapt entry). Sarah's baptism could be this one, from Llangollen parish record transcripts, Clwyd FHS.
Jan 15 1791 (brn Jan 2)
Sarah daughter of Samuel Edwards , farmer, and Mary. Residing Trefor Uchaf ( a township of Llangollen parish close to Cefn Mawr).
-
AH thank you, so that is proof of Sarah Edwards then. :)
I do have an account with Ancestry and findmypast, although I've stopped the findmypast for now.
I've just found a link to John Williams 1789 on another family tree on ancestry, in her tree it says his parents were Hugh and Mary? But that's all..
-
Does it sat where John was born?
A possible death/burial for John Williams the butcher:
Ruabon
19th October 1869 John Williams, 82, Cefn Mawr
I've checked wills/probate for 1866 +/- 5 but nothing.
Link to Clwyd:
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/
-
No, it just says Wales.
I've messaged her to try and confirm if it is a definite link
-
There are a few Llangollen bpt for a John Williams around that time ~
Dec 7 1787 - son of Hugh and Frances (mn Philips) of Trefor Isaf
Jan 14 1788 -son of William and Martha (mn Evans),strangers
Oct 13 1789 - son John and Mary (mn Jones) of Trefor Uchaf
Nov 29 1789 - son of Thomas and Gwen (mn Jones) of Trefor Uchaf
No Hugh and Mary - maybe you could check the non-c records on FamilySearch
-
A little more about William and Hannah and the area they lived in 1851/61/71.
In 1861 and 1871 two of William and Hannah`s daughters were paper workers.
In 1871 Hannah is at the Old Wire Mill.
On this map surveyed 1872, the wire mill is shown as disused.
Hope paper mills are opposite the Holly Bush.
There is a track at the side of the New Inn, if you follow the river there are some old houses I`m sure this is Wire Mill Cottage .
Coflein confirms it.
http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/40428/details/cefn-y-bedd-wiremill-cefn-y-bedd#site-details
-
This is a modern map view. Wire Mill cottage and New Inn are to RH of red dot.
-
Wow,
Thank you.
It doesn't look to have been built up much over the years.
-
Just been onto my old findmypast account and looked at a 1911 census for Griffith jones born 1867 in Manchester and amongst all his children are an Elizabeth and an Eliza born a year apart, so it must've been a family thing then.
-
Just been onto my old findmypast account and looked at a 1911 census for Griffith jones born 1867 in Manchester and amongst all his children are an Elizabeth and an Eliza born a year apart, so it must've been a family thing then.
:D
-
This Edward died sometime between 1774 and 1777, so William Jones cannot be his son.
He does have a son Edward.
There is a William and a Griffith, who were his grandsons, could this possibly be the same family.
The will is worth reading,
1777 will Edward Jones
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/162688
Jones, Edward, Abermorddu, Hope, Flint, The Elder/Blacksmith
Signed 2 May 1774. Proved 3 May 1777
Friend Thomas Williams of the Pigeon House, Hope.
Thomas Hughes of Cummey ,( Cymmau) miller.
Two grandsons Edward and John.
Edward Yong.
Edward Jones (son)
Jenne ? Jones (daughter)
Grandson William Jones shall learn the trade of blacksmith
Grandson Richard Jones
Granddaughter Dorothy Rice ?
Grandaughter Margaret Jones.
Four grandchildren William, Griffith, Margaret and Richard.
-
Blimey,
I've not really read that many wills, but that does seem quite an in-depth one, or were they usually like that.
So if it is William Jones 1791 family, we need to find a link between William the grandson who was to become a blacksmith and William who was a blacksmith?
Edward seemed to be quite well off too, I suppose blacksmiths were always busy in those days.
Thank you for that, it made really interesting reading
-
Of course we can`t prove this Edward is another of "our" Jones family, but it would be interesting :o
The one who died 1774/1779 described himself as old and weak, and this event was in 1734. :-\
It doesn`t say what happened to him.
https://www.llgc.org.uk/php_ffeiliau/sf_results.php?co=All&from=1733&off_cat=Any&off_co=Flint&to=1830&off=50&off=0
Edward Jones; Parish: Hope; County: Flint; Status: Blacksmith
2 April 1734
-
Wow,
Very very interesting.
I wonder what his punishment was? 'Prays benefit of clergy, to be burned in the hand'
Seems a bit lenient for manslaughter. It say's he was tried twice, is that correct? Could they be tried twice for the same crime in those days.
I've still not found a link lol, but if there is one it would well and truly overshadow any of the other bad ancestors I've uncovered.
-
http://www.historyextra.com/qa/tudor-punishment-burnt-hand
-
Haha, so he might've even got off without getting burnt!!
There's a RIchard Jones baptised 19th August 1771 in Hope his parents are Edward and Margaret. It's a long shot but could it be the young grandson Richard in Edwards will?
-
Well if he was a blacksmith he was probably used to a few burns. ;)
-
Hello again :)
I've just found a possible link for Hannah, wife of William Jones 1791
It's a family on ancestry who have a Harriet Tudor Jones (1861 census living with William and Hannah) and (1871 living with Hannah and son Ezra aged 9).
The Harriet I've found has a mother of called Hannah Reese Jones.
Is it possible our Hannah's maiden name was Reese?
Richard
-
Hi
I have just registered with this site and picked up that you were investigating a Jones family who originated in Denbighshire. If I've read it right your ancestor was Griffith Henry Jones who is my 2nd Great Uncle. His sister Sarah being my Great Grandmother born in Monks Coppenhall in 1860. Might be interesting to pool information if you are still investigating this side. I have quite a lot of information especially on the Manchester side.
Regards
Peter
-
Hi Peter,
Yes I'm still researching Griffith Henry Jones.
It seems that we do have a link.
Have you read the whole thread?
I've come up against a brick wall, so I've put it to rest for a while.
I do have information on the family in Manchester.
Griffith was my great great grandfather.
It would be very interesting to pool our information together.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Kind regards
Richard
-
Hi Richard
Always nice to find someone following the same lines. Its not happened very often to me even over a number of years.
I have printed out your thread and am working my way through it. Certain items are new to me e.g. the birth of Eliza Williams . Not found that before and in truth I know little about that side of the family, I know some other listers have made suggestions which I will follow up re the Williams family. Not sure where to start with mine so will just jump in and let you have some basics from my tree ( forgive me if I am going over old ground)
My Great Grandmother Sarah was born on the 24th June 1860 , the second birth , her brother John arriving earlier the same day. Their address was 27, New Street. Her siblings, beside John, were William b. 1850, John & Alfred ( twins) b. 1855, Robert b. 1858, Harriett b. 1863 and as you know Griffith Henry b. 1866. Her parents were Griffith Jones and Eliza Williams who married in 1850 at the Wrexham Parish Church.
I believe that Griffith was baptised on the 6th October 1830 at Hope , the son of Williams Jones and Hannah. I had a problem with finding their marriage as the only one I could find with similar names and occupations took place at St. Mary's Church, Chester on 30th Jan 1825. Their first child John was baptised on 23rd Oct 1825 at Hope Parish Church. If this is the right marriage and there is a question mark over why Chester , then Hannah's name would be Davies . I accept that there may be other information out there that I haven't yet tapped into.
In any event in 1861 William and Hannah were living in Cefn y bedd with children Harriet Tudor ( nee Jones ), Hannah 15, Jane 13 & Robert 17.
By 1871 William had died ( can't find the right death) but Hannah was recorded as a Widow living with Harriet and Grandson Ezra Tudor.
I have found what I believe to be her death record in 1879 ( 20th October) at New Inn, Gwersyllt, when Hannah Jones, widow of William Jones ( Blacksmith ) 77 years died of old age. The only sticking point for me being that the informant was Elizabeth Evans ( daughter) - to date I haven't identified her.
Coming more up to date my Great Grandmother Sarah, married John Ratcliffe on 1st March 1879 at Christ Church,Beswick, Manchester. She had nine children - George Alfred (1879-1960), Ellen (1881-1955, John (1884-1890), Griffithe ( my Grandfather) (1887-1963), Thomas b. 1888, Eliza (1894-1954) , John (1898-1960) , Sarah Elizabeth (1898-1973) , and Robert ( 1902- 1975).
Please let me know if any of that helps or if you think I have information about specific areas which may assist you. I suspect I may have a couple of questions of my own once I have digested this log :).
Best regards
Peter
-
Hi Peter,
So sorry I haven't replied to your last message. I have no idea why I haven't seen it.
Thank you for the information, did you ever find out if William and Hannah were married in Chester? And her name was Davies?
I've just decided to have another look at this side of my tree, so if I find anything else out, I will be sure to let you know?
Best regards
Richard
-
Hi Richard
The mysteries of the internet eh! Yes I'm still here beavering away.
The Chester marriage still seems to be a likely one as the dates and occupations do fit but nothing is 100%. However I did find what I believe are the registered births of two of Hannah's children after the 1837 registration started. Robert Jones born 24/9/1843, and Hannah Jones born 7/8/1846 both at Gwersyllt. The dates tie in with later Census returns. Their parents being William and Hannah Jones . William being a Blacksmith and Hannah's former name being Davies . So I am pretty happy that this is the right family.
Please let me know how you get on.
Regards
Peter