RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Sandidel on Tuesday 11 July 17 09:10 BST (UK)
-
Hi
I am trying to find the birth of Harcourt Leonard Hartnett he was rumoured among his family to have been born in New Zealand or Newcastle, Australia but no records have been found. I have no idea when he was born?? His daughter Monica was born 1931, Parramatta, Nsw.
This is the tread I had on NZ Rootschat you can check it out to see what has been found so far.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=774616.new;topicseen#new
If anyone can help that would be great!
Thanks
Sandi
-
Sandi, as you will see there is no mention of a Harcourt in this family.
William and Agnes' children:
20907/1959 Mary Ellen G Hartnett CHATSWOOD
40865/1974 Nelson Edward William Hartnett
HARTNETT Nelson William Edward Death notice 1-1-1974 Death 66 late of Darlinghurst Sydney Morning Herald 3-1-1974
Nelson's court marshall: https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=302416
Marriage:
10113/1915 Amber R HARTNETT to Donald D REID ANNANDALE
16839/1927 Amber R REID to Thomas SMITH NORTH SYDNEY
Death of Amber: 30046/1969 Amber Rose SMITH parents William and Agnes KOGARAH
SMITH Amber Rose Death notice 19-8-1969 Death 77 late of Peakhurst Sydney Morning Herald 23-8-1969
Death of Donald: 10339/1923 Donald D REID parents Alfred E and Amy ROCKDALE
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16088697
Funeral notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16088852
Death of Thomas: 24159/1976 Thomas SMITH parents William and Martha
SMITH Thomas Death notice 21-9-1976 Death 84 late of Peakhurst Sydney Morning Herald 27-9-1976
At Woronora Cemetery:
Amber Rose Smith 19-8-1969, Burial Anglican Monumental - Section Aj - 0697
Thomas Smith 21-9-1976 Burial Anglican Monumental - Section Aj - 0697
Marriage:
3643/1921 Myrtle L HARTNETT to Ethelbert C LUGTON ST LEONARDS
Death:
65381/1973 Myrtle Lillian LUGTON parents William and Agnes ST LEONARDS
LUGTON Myrtle Lillian Death notice 6-12-1973 Death 83 late of Northbridge Sydney Morning Herald 7-12-1973
5781/1947 Ethelbert Charles LUGTON parents William and Annie Rebecca NORTH SYDNEY
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18018726
At Macquarie Park Cemetery: METHODIST MONUMENTAL, D5, Grave 0006
Lugton Myrtle Lillian 6-12-1973
Lugton E Charles 12-2-1947
Their son's death: 10725/1959 Ronald William LUGTON CHATSWOOD
LUGTON Ronald William Death notice 3-5-1959 Death 36 at RPA Hospital, late of Northbridge Sydney Morning Herald 5-5-1959
His marriage: 3789/1949 Ronald William LUGTON to Josephine Ellen Margaret RYDE
Josephine's death: LUGTON Josephine Ellen Margaret Death notice 13-11-2013 Death 88 late of Denistone SMH 16-11-2013
At Northern Suburbs Memorial Gardens:
Ronald: Location: Crescent CourtSection: Wall 8
http://www.heavenaddress.com/restingplace/northernsuburbsmemorialgardens/ronald-william-lugton/711225
Josephine: Location: Memorial Garden DESection: Lot: Location 130
Born on 15 September 1925
Passed away on 13 November 2013
Aged 88 years
Daughter of Myrtle: 3898/1957 Peggy Narelle LUGTON to Stefan Robert SATMARI NORTH SYDNEY
SATMARI Peggy Narelle Death notice 4-6-2005 Death at Bathurst Base Hospital Sydney Morning Herald 6-6-2005
SATMARI Stefan Robert (Steve) Death notice 31-10-2001 Death at Bathurst Base Hospital Western Advocate (Bathurst) 2-10-2001
I can't see a NSW marriage or death for Edna LUGTON.
Jamjar
-
Hi,
The WW2 Nominal Roll Index has Harcourt Leonard Hartnett born 5th July 1903 in Newcastle NSW.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/NameSearch.aspx
Gerry
-
Harcourt is buried with wife Violet and son Leonard
CHURCH OF ENGLAND, K5, Grave 0022
Hartnett Leonard Robert W 15-4-1941 He was 7 years 7 mths:
7182/1941 Leonard Robert William HARTNETT CHATSWOOD
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17719336
Hartnett Violet Louisa 3-3-1996
As well as considering that he may have been an illegitimate child of one of the daughters, he also could possibly have been adopted, or as you say a child of a sibling.
J.
-
Interested in this thread, so just adding - I couldn't see the births of May and Myrtle on the previous thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=774616.0
but realised they are indexed under HARTNELL:
3688/1888 May E G (Sydney)
2460/1890 Myrtle Lilian (Sydney)
Hi,
The WW2 Nominal Roll Index has Harcourt Leonard Hartnett born 5th July 1903 in Newcastle NSW.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/NameSearch.aspx
Gerry
Apparently the family thought he fudged his age so that he could enlist at the end of WW1.
-
He enlisted for service in WW2, not WW1 as far as I can see. He already had a military service background as shown in the previous thread:
from NSW Police Gazettes 1925 Leonard Harnett Harcourt age 22 charged with deserting from Royal Australian Garrison Artillery at Paddington - native of Newcastle - Metal Worker
Muss
Had also been about to add the 1925 NSW Police Gazette entry as found by Muss. ;)
Just to expand on it though ... and to emphasise that the name was shown as
Leonard Harnett (rather than Hartnett) ... and with HARCOURT as the surname, the listing also included a regimental number > No. 598.
[Source: New South Wales Police Gazette - 29 July 1925 : Date of desertion given as 13th instant (i.e. 13 July 1925). ]
In a Commonwealth of Australia Gazette, dated No. 97, of 24 June 1948, this entry :
Long Service and Good Conduct Medal : Temporary Quartermasters and Honorary Lieutenants :
NP 598 (NX70192) (Major) Harcourt Leonard HARTNETT.
As can be seen, both have the same regt. number.
I suppose you have to ask whether HLH originally enlisted as "Leonard Harnett HARCOURT" ... or was there an error in the names published in the NSW Police Gazette ???
~ Lu
The surviving attestation documents and personnel dossiers for the PMF and Militia outside of the war years are name indexed on the NAA website and I cannot see anything there for him.
Apparently the family thought he fudged his age.......
Harcourt married for the first time in 1924 and even that is quite young for a man to marry in that time period if he was born in 1903, so I doubt that he would be any younger.
His age in 1925 was said to be 22 which confirms the 1903 year of birth.
He enlisted at the beginning of WW2 on 28 March 1940, probably as an Officer. In May 1940 the upper age for recruits was increased from 35 to 40, and the upper age limit for officers was Lieutenants 30, Captains 35, Majors 40, and Lieutenant-Colonels 45.
Debra :)
-
Please read the link. Does not idicate that Wm and Elizabeth were his birth parents.
http://artilleryhistory.org/gunners_past_and_present/gunners_of_renown_gunners_tales/gunners_of_renown/chapter_3/documents/bio_hartnett_harcourt_leonard.pdf
Hal Hartnett was born on 5 July 1903, place of birth unknown, and was raised by William and Elizabeth Hartnett.
He was educated at Mosman Preparatory School and Fort Street Boys High School, Sydney. His father had served in the Sudan with the Field Batter NSW Artillery and was a captain in WW I.
I have done a wildcard search for births on 5 Jul 1903 on NSW BDM...nothing stands out. Search with given name *
Cando
-
William Edward HARTNETT was born in India. NOK Elizabeth.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=4735953&T=P&S=1
Cando
-
The children of William and Agnes:
1888 May
1890 Myrtle
1892 Amber
1907 Nelson
So in 1903 they had three daughters and no son so he may have just been a random adoption and not related at all. I still find it odd that he was, to my mind, either actively excluded from the family, or he came into the family with William's second wife. From 1914....
HARTNETT - In fond memory of our dear mother, who died at Mosman, June 28, 1907. Sadly missed
hy her loving children, May, Myrtle, Amber, and only son, Nelson.
In 1913 the electoral roll shows William, Myrtle, May, and William's brother Henry living in Newcastle and William remarried in April 1913.
Perhaps Elizabeth's divorce records from 1912 might clarify whether or not she had any dependants.
Debra :)
-
Too quick for me Deb...
Second marriage
7218/1913
HARTNETT William E
VON BENKE Elizabeth
District Newcastle
Cando
-
Elizabeth first marriage
2732/1899
FITZHENRY Elizabeth
VON BENKE Gyula
District Sydney
Surrname could be BENKE
Cando
-
Just adding from the other thread because it is important to establish that there was some sort of acknowledgement of the relationship, the death notice of Harcourt's son in 1941....
Mr. and Mrs. W. E. HARTNETT of Redfern and Mr. R. GRAHAM of Willoughby wish to sincerely THANK all relatives and friends for their kindness in the recent loss of their grandson Leonard Hartnett (Lennie). Will all please accept this as a personal expression of gratitude.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17721792
Debra :)
-
Hi,
The Sydney Morning Herald, 31st December 1924, page 8.
DEATHS
HARTNETT- December 30, 1924, Gladys May, beloved wife of Harcourt. L. (Hal) Hartnett, of 6- marian street, Leichhardt.
Gerry
-
Sands Sydney Alpha Directory 1920
Capt. W.E. HARTNETT, 32 Macquarie St, Leichhardt
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
JM
-
NSW BDM indexes and some known flaws
1. Until the 1930s the staff actually did not have an index by surnames ... the index was prepared by volunteers, in co-operation with the then newly formed (NSW) SAG (Society of Australian Genealogists). The records were all handwritten, the pages were thumbmarked, torn etc and the ink used over the decades had bled through. Some entries were unable to be deciphered adequately due to the illegible scribble.
2. When NSW BDM commenced to computerise there were further 'issues' ... this was back in the EDP era, so cards could jam, mangle and/or fall through ... never to be recovered ... so some entries were not included in the indexes.
3. And of course, some regional BDM deputy registrars 'forgot' to send in their quarterly returns, or some H.Q. clerks 'forgot' to process the quarterly returns ....
4. And some 'official mail' did not make it to H.Q. or ended up mixed up with Land Returns in the Registrar General's Office...
And NSW BDM has not ever been sufficiently funded to allow for a concerted effort to check those older manual systems ... and ummm... there's not too many people around who have retained their competency of the old system anyway even if such a project could be underway soon.
JM
-
Death of Elizabeth's first husband - I wonder if either certificates mention first marriage and issue, if any, were noted.
Images of certificates can be purchased online and immediately downloaded.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
Second marriage in Victoria
VON BENKE Gyula Bampton
SEARLL Violet Maie
1914 Reg#4425
Death in Victoria
VON BENKE Gyula
Father Gyula Mother Caroline Teresa BAMPTON
Born Calcutta, India
At Camberwell East 1952 79 years Reg#9916
Cando
-
Perhaps Elizabeth's divorce records from 1912 might clarify whether or not she had any dependants
No mention of children in this item. Usually any children of the marriage are mentioned.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228839662
The Sun 4 Oct 1912
Bade her good-bye.
Elizabeth von Benke (formerly Fitzhenry) applied to Mr, Justice Gordon in the Divorce Court today, for a dissolution of her marriage with Gyula von Benke, on the ground of desertion. The petitioner, who was represented by Mr. R., W. Fraser, said she married the respondent in June, 1899, at Surry Hills. They lived together till December, 1908, when he left her saying he was going to Melbourne and then to Adelaide with Anderson's Theatrical Company. He was working as a property man. Her husband bade her good-bye, and promised to write to her but he failed to do so, and she hadn't seen him since. Her husband was of Hungarian descent.
His Honor granted a decree, nisi, returnable in six months.
Cando
-
As Sandi enquired about on the NZ board:
Muss suggested an online family tree which had the parents of Violet as Robert and Amy.
38146/1907 Violet L Graham parents ROBERT and AMY F NEWTOWN
Marriage: 2635/1906 Robert GRAHAM to Amy F THOMPSON WATERLOO
Death of Amy, as suggested by online tree:
4017/1944 Amy Florence Graham 59 YRS NEWTON
Funeral notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17874545
Rookwood: AMY GRAHAM 59 8-1-1944 Area:Zone D Section:15 Grave: 1893. No headstone inscription.
Gladys is at Rookwood Catholic and no headstone inscription:
Section Grave Mortuary 2 Area: 10 Grave : 1428 1-1-1925 age 19.
Jamjar
Added: This is only a wild guess, based on the fact that Robert had a daughter named Clarice Mary Ann and a son Archibald Robert:
GRAHAM ROBERT
11322/1956 Robert GRAHAM parents ARCHIBALD and MARY JANE NORTH SYDNEY
GRAHAM Robert Death notice 20-4-1956 Death 76 at Royal North Shore Hospital Sydney Morning Herald 23-4-1956
-
Sands Sydney Alpha 1905, 1910,
W E HARTNETT, Gordon St, Mosman.
Sands Surburban 1900
Gordon Street, Mosman
East Side, off Military Road
T HARTNETT, “Plevna”
Sands Suburban 1909
Gordon Street, Mosman
West Side, off Military Road,
Corner of Gordon St and Wolseley Road
W.E. HARTNETT, “Plevun”
NSW Electoral Roll 1902 NORTH SYDNEY, polling Mosman’s Bay
HARNETT surname for all
Aileen Norah, Raglan Street, lady companion
Cora Ada May, Raglan Street, domestic duties
Kathleen Alice, Mistral Ave, domestic duries
Richard Hayes, junior, Buena Vista, Military Road, commission merchant
Rolla Alfred, Buena Vista, Military Road, land and estate agent
Sarah Louisa, Raglan Street, domestic duties.
I may be repeating info previously found … if so, I apologise.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/238071554 Daily Tele 8 Jul 1907
HARTNETT, June 28, 1907, at Plevna House, Gordon St, Mosman, the late wife of Warrant Officer HARTNETT R.A. Artillery, a son.
This birth would match up to Nelson W E Hartnett’s birth registered Mosman in 1907 #26410.
It is possible, and so I speculate that H L HARTNETT may have been fostered via an informal Lodge/Church/Military connection as a companion for Nelson.
JM
-
Death of Agnes Hartnett of Plevna House, Mosman, 1907, last column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article163661919
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14842667
5682/1907 Agnes Hartnett parents Francis R and Mary MOSMAN
Got myself all confuddled when I read the birth to his late wife and saw the R. A. thinking it was name initials.
Now I see that Agnes died in child birth, silly I. ::)
J.
-
JJ, I should have typed one of my comments into that post noting 'late' wife and 'RA Artilliery' ... please accept my apologies.
JM
-
Thanks everyone awesome info and replys! I am ever so grateful!!!
Cheers
Sandi
-
JJ, I should have typed one of my comments into that post noting 'late' wife and 'RA Artilliery' ... please accept my apologies.
JM
Not a problem at all JM, it helps to keep the little grey cells firing. ;D
J.
-
I am not sure if this thread is still active, however I will post anyway. My mother is Harcourt Leonard Hartnett s daughter. Harcourt was born in 1905, however he lied about his age and said he was born in 1903. He did this so he could join the Army. We know that he is the son of W E Hartnett and Agnes Hartnett however as you know Agnes’s passed in 1907 in child birth of Nelson. What no one knows for certain is who brought the two boys up. By that, I mean who was his step mother? There is strong family evidence (various conversations) of adoption, but that has led to dead ends. I hope this post reaches someone who may be able to shed further light on this subject.
-
Hello Trassoci and welcome to rootschat.
Sandidel (who started this thread) has not been online since July 2017, however hopefully Sandi still has the same email address and will receive notification of your post. I'm sure she will be interested to hear from you.
-
We know that he is the son of W E Hartnett and Agnes Hartnett
All evidence shows that he was NOT the son of William and Agnes. Agnes died on 28 June 1907 after childbirth. Leonard is not listed as one of her children on her death certificate and her husband William was the informant.
Debra :)
-
Hi Debra. Thank you for your reply. When you say, “All evidence” is there any more evidence other than a death certificate? Do you have a copy of the death certificate.? I am very keen to find as much information as I can.
-
https://postimg.cc/image/fcvwhc4l7/
In memoriam for Agnes states that Nelson is the only son:
HARTNETT - In fond memory of our dear mother, who died at Mosman, June 28, 1907. Sadly missed
by her loving children, May, Myrtle, Amber, and only son, Nelson.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15519262
It seems likely that Leonard/Harcourt came into the family either just prior to Agnes's last pregnancy or after William Edward's remarriage to Elizabeth. It has also been suggested that he could have been the son of one of the daughters.
Debra :)
-
Thank you. That is fantastic information. I would go further and suggest that it is possible that Myrtle may be Harcourts mother. I will keep digging.
-
Further, my mother, Harcourt’s daughter, Monica Lillian has told me that she always thought/suspected that Harcourt was the daughter of one of the girls. Further, my mother had always been told that her middle name, (Lillian) was taken from Myrtles middle name. My mother also thought it odd that Myrtle always called Harcourt, Little Hally and was extremely involved in him.
There is also an argument that Harcourt was actually born in NZ however I have proof of that. We only know that he lied about his age so he could join the Army and that he was born in 1905, and not 1903 as he told the Army.
Of course you don’t have to answer this next question but I am wondering where you fit in this whole interesting episode in History?
Kind Regards
Ian C
-
Further, W.E as you say, remarried, but that was in 1912, making Harcourt approx 7 years of age at that time.
-
Thank you. That is fantastic information. I would go further and suggest that it is possible that Myrtle may be Harcourts mother. I will keep digging.
It's interesting that you say that - it was suggested as a possibility on this related thread (replies 23, 24 and 25)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=774616.18
-
There appears to be a lot of speculation about HLH. I am sure I will never get to type end of it however a few points. There is NO record of Harcourt ever attending Mosman Prep School. According to the school as recent as today, the only Hartnett to attend the school was “Nelson” who attended for just over one month. Dates are 5 April 1914 to 1 May 1914. Although there is no documentation to confirm Harcourts DOB, it has been common knowledge in our family that his real year of birth was 1905. He simply lied by saying 1903 on his enlistment paperwork of which I have a copy.
As far as my mother, Harcourts daughter is concerned, there is little doubt and more likely than not, that Harcourt Leonard Hartnett is the son of Myrtle. It makes perfect sense to my mother as she recalls many conversations for over 70 years with various close family members, the terms of endearment used by close family members etc. In short, my mother has always suspected that Myrtle was her biological grandmother. Whilst there is no documentary evidence to support this, we as a family have no doubts as to the above.