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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: bellaode on Tuesday 11 July 17 09:51 BST (UK)

Title: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Tuesday 11 July 17 09:51 BST (UK)
I am just starting to do my father's family tree,
his name is (*), born 1938 at Banff, his mother is Isabella Haig Stevenson born 1920, his father is John Duncan of Backhill

Just wondering if anyone can help




(*) Moderator Comment:
Edited in accordance with RootsChat policy of not publishing details of living people here, or details of people who may still be living. This is to protect all concerned from spam, identity abuse, internet abuse, etc, etc.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: isobelw on Tuesday 11 July 17 10:02 BST (UK)
Scotlandspeople have a birth in 1920 in Banff for Isabella Haig Stevenson. The only matching marriage seems to be in 1947 in Elgin to a John Alexander Mitchell or Smith. Can't see a death. You would need to apply for the birth and marriage certs as both fall out with the ranges viewable on SP. Alternatively someone visiting the record office might be willing to do a look up for you. Have you viewed the 1938 birth certificate - does it name John Duncan as his father and give a date and place of marriage for Isabella and John?
Isobel
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 11 July 17 10:10 BST (UK)
Hi and welcome to Rotschat from me also as Isobelw has said you would need to order certificate's to see what it says ..Like Isobel said  that is the only marriage I can see also on Scotlands People

Rosie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: rosie17 on Tuesday 11 July 17 10:17 BST (UK)
The only death I can see for a Isabella Haig R Duncan is in Aberdeen 1964 but this one is aged 69  ???

Rosie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: spades on Tuesday 11 July 17 10:22 BST (UK)
Hi Bellaode, and welcome to RootsChat. :D

Unfortunately I have had to remove your father's name in accordance with RootsChat's privacy policy as per the note above in blue.

I assume that his parents are deceased, but can you confirm this, please?

Spades
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Tuesday 11 July 17 11:38 BST (UK)
I can confirm that Isabella Haig Stevenson passed away on the 17th of November 2001 in Warrnambool Australia and yes she did marry John Mitchell who also passed away in 1986 also in Warrnambool Australia
I have no idea on the status of John Duncan as he is only named on my father's birth certificate as coming from Backhill Parish of Banff (farm servant).

Thank you for your help
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Tuesday 11 July 17 11:47 BST (UK)
I also know that Isabella Haig Stevenson's mother is Margaret Ann Stevenson and she died in 1937 and is buried at Myres Cemetery McDuff, so if anyone can enlighten me more on her past I would be grateful.  Thanks
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: isobelw on Tuesday 11 July 17 13:26 BST (UK)
A Margaret Stevenson other name Barron died in MacDuff in 1937 age 40. Her certificate is available to view for a small fee on Scotlandspeople ( pay to view - £7.00 buys access to 5 certificates). The certificate should give her parents names and also that of her husband. Can't immediately see a Stevenson/Barron marriage.
Isobel
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Tuesday 11 July 17 13:36 BST (UK)
Thanks Isobelw that is the information that we have, I have written to a cousin of Isabella Haig Stevenson but I am just waiting on her reply from Scotland to down here in Australia.  Hopefully she will have some information re my father's father John Duncan.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: spades on Tuesday 11 July 17 23:15 BST (UK)
Thanks Bellaode,

Good luck with your research.

Spades
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: ruthhelen on Wednesday 12 July 17 19:55 BST (UK)
It seems likely that Isabella Haig Stevenson and John Duncan weren't married - at least at the point of your father's birth. Without reintroducing your father's name to the thread, SP shows a 1938 birth in Banff for a xxx Duncan, and another index entry (with the same reference number) for a xxx Stevenson, which suggests he was registered as xxx Duncan or Stevenson, and his parents weren't married.

You'd need to see the birth certificate to confirm that - if the parents were married, the date and place of the marriage should be recorded.

Ruth
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Thursday 13 July 17 00:17 BST (UK)
Thanks ruthelen I do have my father's birth certificate and the parents Isabella Haig Stevenson and John Duncan never married it does show where both parties are from.  I also have a copy of Isabella Haig stevensons mothers death certificate but John Duncan of backhill is a mystery.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 13 July 17 01:12 BST (UK)
I have PM'd Bella for obvious reasons with 'living/possibly living' names i.e....

From the names on your dad's maternal side it would appear he wasn't named after them....speculation I know but for now it's looking likely he was named after John's father?

What year was Isabella Haig Stevenson born as we are looking now for a John Duncan born around the same year approx. as Isabella (hopefully)?

The other question which is important (to me anyway), do you know the distance between Backhill, Banff where John was and Wesley Cottage, Gellymill Parish of Gamrie where Isabella Haig Stevenson was?

John was 'of' Backhill (at that time) i.e. not necessarily born there!

Annie

Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 13 July 17 10:08 BST (UK)
There are dozens of farms called Backhill, but the one in the parish of Banff is here
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ6360

Gellymill isn't named on the modern map but it is in the middle of this map
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ7063

or you can look at the old twenty-five inch map, 
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.6603&lon=-2.5027&layers=168&b=1
where Gellymill Cottage is named. I can't see a readily accessible map with Wesley Cottage but it must be one of the ones close to Gellymill Cottage.

I estimate that it would be about eight miles from Backhill to Gellymill depending what route you took - you'd have to cross the Deveron at either Bridge of Alvah or Banff Bridge. No distance at all to someone accustomed to walking.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Thursday 13 July 17 10:20 BST (UK)
Thanks for your help all information is handy to have especially since I am on the other side of the world
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 13 July 17 11:58 BST (UK)
John was 'of' Backhill (at that time) i.e. not necessarily born there!

Are we absolutely certain that the original document says 'of' rather than 'in' or 'at'? Because if it does indeed say 'of', it may imply permanent rather than temporary residence.

In older records 'of' usually implies that the person referred to is the proprietor or at least tenant-in-chief of the place. 'In' implies habitual residence but not any sort of ownership, and 'at' implies temporary residence.

It's not infallible, of course, and it is certainly not helped by the sloppy use of the term 'Of' in the Family Search web site to suggest where someone may have been born just because they were married there or their eldest child was baptised there.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Thursday 13 July 17 12:04 BST (UK)
the fathers section of my fathers birth certificate reads

John Duncan Father Backhill, Parish of Banff



the other part reads John Duncan, Farm Servant


Thank you for your help
Teresa
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 13 July 17 12:57 BST (UK)
Thanks Forfarian....

My comp has been updating for the last 2 days & I'm having problems here & there.

Hi Bella,

As your research now does not include any possible living people you can post what you PM'd me i.e. I will add it here for others to help.
I had to PM you as I didn't know your father's name & at that point I couldn't get onto SP site to find out.

"Isabella Haig Stevenson who was resided at Wesley Cottage, Gellymill Parish of Gamrie.
We know that Isabella Haig Stevenson's mother was Margaret Ann Stevenson whose mother was Margaret (Maggie) Walker Barron and the father was George Stevenson.

I have found several Duncans that have lived in Gellymill Street Banff through Census but not sure if they are the same.
Isabella Haig Stevenson mother also lived in Gellymill Street Banff too from the information we have seen the death certificate and it too states Wesley Cottage Gellymill."


It will not be possible to identify them in any census for that period as our last census available is 1911 unfortunately.
It may however be possible to find the parents of Isabella then take things from there with possibilities.

I have checked the Valuation Rolls for Gellymill Street (latest being 1930) with no Duncans although there are Stevensons with different names although probably related?

The only George is this one...

STEVENSON GEORGE, Tenant Occupier
FARM WESTER RIVEHILL ESTATE OF GREENSKARES, GAMRIE
1930
VR009100100-

There are no Duncans listed in 1930 for Backhill, Banff


Annie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 13 July 17 13:24 BST (UK)
There are quite a few Duncans in Gamrie 1930 although none of the addresses we have so far but this one looks good...

DUNCAN JOHN, Proprietor Occupier
FARM MILL OF FORTRIE, GAMRIE
1930
VR009100100-

Same one with..
HOUSE ON MILL OF FORTRIE

Annie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 13 July 17 14:08 BST (UK)
Ahhh...Just did a quick search before I go out &.....

"Mill Of Fortrie U98b C97b At Backhill Of Fortrie Via Mill Of Fortrie To A948 At Burngrains Auchnagatt Ellon Aberdeenshire AB41 8XB"

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ke4/

Annie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 13 July 17 16:23 BST (UK)
As I said there are Backhills all over the place. Just for the sake of completeness, here are 117 photographs of no less than 40 (yes, forty) different places called Backhill in Moray, Banffshire and Aberdeenshire http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?i=73787718. There may be others that are as yet unphotographed.

I have found, so far, three quite separate places called Fortrie.

First http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ6645 or, on the old map
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.4985&lon=-2.5570&layers=5&b=1
I can't see a Backhill of Fortrie there, but I wonder if that is perhaps another name for Backhill of Drachlaw http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/990519 which is only a few hundred metres (or yards) from Bridge of Fortrie. This Fortrie is in the parish of Inverkeithny.

Second, the Backhill of Fortrie you referred to above. It's a different Fortrie, and a different Backhill. Here it is http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ9640. It is spelled Fortree on the old maps http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.4579&lon=-2.0673&layers=5&b=1 and it's in the parish of Ellon, in the real historical county of Aberdeenshire, and about 20 miles south-east of Macduff.

This is yet another Fortrie http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.6204&lon=-2.4413&layers=5&b=1. This one straddles the boundary between the parishes of Gamrie and King Edward, so is probably the one referred to in that 1930 VR. Here it is on a modern map http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ7358. I don't see a Mill of Fortrie named there on any map, but the first edition of the six-inch map shows and labels a mill dam at the farm of Fortrie.

If your John Duncan was at Backhill in the parish of Banff, he was not at any of these other places. He could, of course, be a relative of the Duncans at Backhill of Fortrie, or of those at Mill of Fortrie, and employed away from home, but Duncan is a very common name and it could be (probably is) just a coincidence.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 13 July 17 16:33 BST (UK)
Re Gellymill.

Gellymill is in the parish of Gamrie, just outside Macduff, which is the only town in the parish of Gamrie. Gellymill Road and Gellymill Street are both in Gamrie, They lead out from Macduff towards Gellymill. see
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.6657&lon=-2.4998&layers=168&b=1
on which Gellymill Street and Gellymill Road are both shown and named.

By definition, anything that is in the parish of Gamrie cannot be in the parish of Banff, which is an entirely separate parish on the other side of the River Deveron.

Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 13 July 17 22:54 BST (UK)
 :o Thanks Forfarian,

40....not much to wade through  ;D

Just as well someone knows their geography as I couldn't tell by looking at that where exactly or how far from where I should have been looking but it looked good from the VR info. & of course the name John did have me speculating  ::)

So, time to go backwards as that was the closest time range from the birth (1938)?

Forfarian,

Did you notice where the residence of the only "STEVENSON GEORGE, Tenant Occupier FARM WESTER RIVEHILL ESTATE OF GREENSKARES, GAMRIE" (1930) was & is it anywhere near any of the original place names we have listed please?

Annie




Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Friday 14 July 17 00:59 BST (UK)
Just a quick note to say thank you to all of you trying to help me find my fathers ancestry.

This was something I should have asked my fathers mother before she died, but there was never to right time to do so,  that is why I would like to find out what I can so that my children will know where  the Scottish ancestry comes from.

Your help is very much appreciated.

Thanks from Teresa from Australia
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 14 July 17 03:33 BST (UK)
I think we've all been there but strangely although we would be curious it never occurred to us that one day that person may not be there to answer that curiosity & it only then becomes a real need to know when it's too late  ???  ::)

Back to basics...

Theresa,

Having re-read your info. am I right in thinking that George was not Isabella's father but her g/father or am I mixing the wording up?

"We know that Isabella Haig Stevenson's mother was Margaret Ann Stevenson whose mother was Margaret (Maggie) Walker Barron and the father was George Stevenson."

Can you tell us where exactly Isabella was born, who her father was please & his occupation?

Have you found George, Margaret Walker & Margaret Ann on any census'?

I can't find a marriage for Margaret Walker Barron & George Stevenson.
Do you have the marriage, when/where?

Annie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Friday 14 July 17 09:01 BST (UK)
Ok this is from Margaret stevensons death  register

MArgaret Stevenson domestic servant died 15 December 1937  at Wesley cottage gellymill father ?Stevenson farm servant and mother maggie Barron domestic servant (dec) informant Geo grant (brother in law)
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 14 July 17 09:11 BST (UK)
Yes, I think carefully backwards is the way to go with this one.

Rivehill and Greenskares are east of Macduff, still in the parish of Gamrie. See http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/593879 - there are several variants of Greenskares in the vicinity. Click on the map and you will get a bigger version that you can move around. It's about 5 miles from Gellymill.

This is the Greenskares (Greenskairs) area on the first edition six-inch map
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.6562&lon=-2.3627&layers=5&b=1
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 14 July 17 09:13 BST (UK)
Ok this is from Margaret stevensons death  register

MArgaret Stevenson domestic servant died 15 December 1937  at Wesley cottage gellymill father ?Stevenson farm servant and mother maggie Barron domestic servant (dec) informant Geo grant (brother in law)
Hmmm. Looks as if George Stevenson and Maggie Barron weren't married either.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Friday 14 July 17 11:27 BST (UK)
That sounds about right my father's half sister between the Union of Isabella Haig Stevenson and John Alexander Mitchell did say things weren't normal back then and not to get upset.

Nothing different to this day and age where people don't marry and have children.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 14 July 17 11:38 BST (UK)
Yes. For some reason the proportion of illegitimate births varies widely from one county to another. Banffshire had the highest proportion of illegitimate births - IIRC 19% of births in Banffshire in 1855 were out of wedlock. This is quoted in C T Smout's A Century of the Scottish People but I don't have my copy to hand right now. Ross and Cromarty had only 2%.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Friday 14 July 17 11:39 BST (UK)
I have also done a search on line with deceased on line for the burial of Margaret Stevenson and found that apparently in the same grave is Isabella Stevenson and Margaret Stevenson
Isabella died on the 28th of October 1939 and Margaret Stevenson died on the 17th of December 1937 at the Myrus Cemetery. Grave reference D2/51

Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 14 July 17 12:17 BST (UK)
Thanks again Forfarian as I have slow mapping skills  :D


"Geo grant (brother in law)"

That's a handy piece of info!

At least we know there was at least one sibling i.e. a marriage & census would be interesting.

How old was Margaret Stevenson who died 15 December 1937?

I did come by Grants in the VRs.


Annie

Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Friday 14 July 17 12:47 BST (UK)
According to the death certificate Margaret Stevenson was 40 at the time of her death
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 14 July 17 12:54 BST (UK)
"Geo grant (brother in law)"
That's a handy piece of info!
It is indeed. So presumably George Grant married a Stevenson or Barron sibling or half-sibling of Margaret Stevenson. The SP index shows Margaret/Maggie as being aged 40 when she died in 1937, so born 1896/1897, almost certainly in 1897 as she died almost at the end of 1937.

A George Lyon Grant married Mary Mitchell Barron in Banff in 1919. I couldn't resist a peek at that marriage, and it says that Mary was the daughter of Maggie Barron, no father listed. She was 23 and her address was Scatterty Cottage, parish of King Edward. So in theory she was born in 1895/1896. The closest match in the index at SP is a Mary Mitchell Barron born 1890 in Chapel of Garioch, Aberdeenshire, which is some distance from Banff/Macduff, and about 5 years out. She could have been registered as plain Mary Barron, and acquired the middle name later.

There are (you won't be surprised to read) more than one Scatterty (or Scattertie). This is the one in the parish of King Edward http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ6957 and on the first edition six-inch map http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.6091&lon=-2.5122&layers=5&b=1

If nothing else this thread should have hammered home the message that to research successfully in Scotland you absolutely must know which parish you are looking in, because it's far too easy to find a place with the same or a similar name and assume it's the right one, even though it may be several parishes or even counties away.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 14 July 17 19:36 BST (UK)
Quote
I have found several Duncans that have lived in Gellymill Street Banff through Census but not sure if they are the same.
Isabella Haig Stevenson mother also lived in Gellymill Street Banff too from the information we have seen the death certificate and it too states Wesley Cottage Gellymill."[/color] I've been worrying about this because as far as I know there isn't a Gellymill Street in Banff. The only Gellymill Street I know of is in Macduff. It leads into Gellymill Road which, not surprisingly, leads to Gellymill.

I have also looked at every street name on the twenty-five inch maps, and at a modern street plan of Banff, and none of them shows a Gellymill Street in Banff.

So where did this census come from, and why do you think it shows Gellymill Street in Banff?
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: ruthhelen on Friday 14 July 17 21:47 BST (UK)
So, your great, great grandmother, Margaret (Maggie) Walker Barron seems to have had a number of illegitimate children. From what I can see, she was born on 7 July 1870 in Macduff, Banffshire, to Joseph Barron and Mary Reid.

I can find her in the 1871, 1881 and 1891 censuses with her parents in Boyndie, Banffshire. By 1901, she seems to be a patient at the Chalmers Hospital in Banff.

Iíve found five children of Maggie Barron so far, all by different fathers:


If this is the correct Margaret Walker Barron, it does beg the question of where your information that Margaret (Maggie) Stevenson's father was George Stevenson came from, as the birth record is clearly John Stevenson... And he wasn't a farm servant, but a mason. Although the father of Maggie's half sister, Isabella was George and he was a farm servant... You can see where there might be confusion, with so many different fathers... ;D

Ruth
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 14 July 17 23:34 BST (UK)
Someone's been busy...RH!

From that info...
"Alexander Barron, b. 17 Mar 1891 Boyndie - no father named" Reply #35
A bit side tracking but relevant as I think this is the same family?...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=105147.msg451425#msg451425

Annie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 15 July 17 01:07 BST (UK)
A Margaret Stevenson other name Barron died in MacDuff in 1937 age 40.

Just trying to piece things together from the info. here & from Ruth Helen...

This seems to be the same person..
"Margaret (Maggie) Stevenson, b. 5 Nov 1898, Boyndie - father named on the birth registration as John Stevenson, mason, Inverurie" Reply #35

Annie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Saturday 15 July 17 02:02 BST (UK)
Thank you Rosinish looking at the death certificate of Margaret Stevenson (dec15/12/1937)only shows the father as -----Stevenson and mother maggie Barron   With informant Geo Grant brother in law

So John Stevenson may be correct
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Saturday 15 July 17 02:08 BST (UK)
Just a clarification my fathers birth certificate reads "the usual residence for Isabella Haig Stevenson is Wesley Cottage, Parish of Gamrie

and that John Duncan was Parish of Banff


My father said something to me last night that he can remember being told that John Duncan came from Gamrie (maybe something maybe not)


Again I can't thank you guys enough for all your help so far, things are looking good for my grandmothers side of the family.




Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 15 July 17 02:12 BST (UK)
"So John Stevenson may be correct"

A death cert. only has info. known to the informant i.e. not always accurate.

Ruth Helen has posted the details of the birth...

"Margaret (Maggie) Stevenson, b. 5 Nov 1898, Boyndie - father named on the birth registration as John Stevenson, mason, Inverurie" Reply #35

A birth cert. has accurate info. & for the father's name to be on an illegitimate birth, he must have been present at the Registering of the birth & signed it.

Annie


Read your 'Red Alert'.....

We can now look for the birth of John Duncan as a Parish & County are different things although a Parish can be in that County.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 15 July 17 03:01 BST (UK)
Hi Theresa,

Apologies as my comp keeps cutting out...

I used a window of 1905 - 1925 for John Duncan b Banffshire.

I have discluded any with middle names to narrow things down simply because there was no middle name used on your father's birth or even a middle initial.

There are 37 entries although not all begin with the name John but have John in them.

From that list I have narrowed it down to Gamrie & Banff....

DUNCAN JOHN 1909 147/A 84 Banff
DUNCAN JOHN 1909 147/A 47 Banff

This one looks like the last middle name could be Stevenson (interesting) although I don't think it's him but may be related?

DUNCAN JOHN GEORGE STE 1918 155/A1 24 Gamrie

Because there was no marriage it will be difficult to confirm anything in reality.

It could have been that he was working in the area of Gamrie at the time?

The birth states "Isabella Haig Stevenson is Wesley Cottage, Parish of Gamrie and that John Duncan was Parish of Banff"

From that, I don't think he was born Gamrie.

Annie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 15 July 17 08:19 BST (UK)
The birth states "Isabella Haig Stevenson is Wesley Cottage, Parish of Gamrie and that John Duncan was Parish of Banff"
From that, I don't think he was born Gamrie.
That's a reasonable set of parameters, but in practice I don't think you can deduce anything with certainty.

When John Duncan signed the birth certificate he would have been asked where he was currently residing, so he could have been born in Timbuctoo or (worse) England or USA, and residing at Backhill in the parish of Banff.

All you have to go on with certainty is that his name was John Duncan, that he was a farm servant, that he was old enough to father an illegitimate child in 1938, and that at the time of the child's birth he was residing at Backhill in the parish of Banff. You can deduce that he was a decent sort of man because he owned up to fathering the child, even if he never actually married the mother.

There were 1,399 John Duncans in the 1911 census in Scotland. Even if you eliminate the ones who were too old and the ones who would have been old enough but died, you still have to add on any born between 1911 and say 1920-ish.

It is likely that John Duncan was born in Banffshire or Aberdeenshire, but that on its own is not enough to pinpoint him. The words haystack and needle, not in that order, spring to mind.

Does the handwriting of his signature match the handwriting of the rest of the certificate you have? If it does not, then you are lucky, because the registrar sent the original register to Edinburgh and retained his duplicate register (into which he copied the signature), and what you see is John Duncan's own handwriting.

You could then look at marriages of John Duncans from 1938 onwards, and see if you can find one with a matching signature. I cannot think of any other reliable way of pinning him down with 100% certainty unless you can find a descendant who has some more definite information about him.


Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Saturday 15 July 17 09:13 BST (UK)
Forfarin, what can I say but thank you to you and all the others on this site that have tried to help me find ancestors for my father.

So far with what I and a friend have found your help has consolidated what we have come up with for my fathers mother Isabella Haig Stevenson.

I have been on deceased on line and found that in the same grave at Myrus is:-
Isabella Stevenson dated 28th October 1939
and
Margaret Stevenson dated 17th December 1937

I am unsure of who Isabella Stevenson is?

Hopefully we shall have more information of this side of the family when I received a answer to a letter that I have sent to a cousin of Isabella Haig Stevenson who still lives in the area.

The handwriting on my fathers birth certificate appears to be different but I am only looking at a photocopy, will have to have another look at the original that my father has.

Again thank you for all your help.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: ruthhelen on Saturday 15 July 17 09:52 BST (UK)
Someone's been busy...RH!

It was raining and I was at a loose end  ;D ;D ;D

Ruth
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 15 July 17 10:53 BST (UK)
I have been on deceased on line and found that in the same grave at Myrus is:-
Isabella Stevenson dated 28th October 1939
and
Margaret Stevenson dated 17th December 1937

I am unsure of who Isabella Stevenson is?

Hmm,

Will have to consider other options as there's no-one of that name in that year in that area on SP?

Does it give her age?

She may have died elsewhere & buried there or may be registered as Bella?

Annie

Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 15 July 17 18:22 BST (UK)
I have done another search & have come up blank.

It is however possible that Isabella may have been a Stillbirth & not recorded on the Statutory Register?

I know it became law to have Stillbirths registered 1939 but they are separate from Statutory Deaths.

Annie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: isobelw on Saturday 15 July 17 19:27 BST (UK)
The 1939 entry on Deceasedonline says Isabella Stevenson ( child of).
Thought I'd posted this earlier, but doesn't seem to have appeared on thread.
Isobel
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 15 July 17 20:09 BST (UK)
Thanks Isobel,

Maybe Theresa (OP) can double check to see what it says in full?

There's only 7 deaths in 1939 for the whole of Scotland.

Annie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: isobelw on Saturday 15 July 17 20:25 BST (UK)
Possibly James Davidson Stevenson born 1939 in Banff died 1939 in Banff
Isobel
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Sunday 16 July 17 05:07 BST (UK)
Hi everyone again.  My friend who is helping me has come across two entries for a Isabella Haig on Scottish People's in the statutory births register, why would this be so.   Can you help please
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: isobelw on Sunday 16 July 17 07:58 BST (UK)
The birth has been recorded in both Banff and Boyndie. This normally happens if the birth takes place outwith the Parish where the parents usually reside - birth is recorded in both.
Isobel
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Sunday 16 July 17 08:06 BST (UK)
Thank you
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: ruthhelen on Sunday 16 July 17 20:00 BST (UK)
Well, this has been a very interesting journey ;D I havenít had much luck tracking down your grandfather, John Duncan, but I think I have found your great great grandfather, John Stevenson - as well as what became of your great great grandmother, Margaret Walker Barronís other children, and their fathers.

So, beginning with John Stevenson (father of Margaret Stevenson, b. 1898): he was named on Margaretís birth registration as a mason, residing at 17 Constitution St, Inverurie. Fortunately for us, he was still at that address in the 1901 census.

John Stevenson was born on 28 Jun 1863 in Glenmuick, Aberdeenshire to Alexander Stevenson and Helen Emslie - he had six sisters and a brother. I canít find any evidence that he married, nor can I find a death, but John Stevenson is a pretty common name. He was still unmarried at 38 in the 1901 census.

Next, George Riddle (father of Isabella Raffan Barron, b. 1889). Again, he was named on the corrected entry as being a farm servant, residing at Racloch (sic), Turriff, Aberdeenshire. The same George Riddle married Jean/Jane Christie in Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire about a month after his daughter Isabella was born.

George Riddle was born on 22 Nov 1865 in Forglen, Banffshire to Ernest Riddle and Helen Reid. He and Jean/Jane Christie had one daughter in Scotland before the family emigrated to the US, where they had four more children. George died in Vermont in 1946.

Iíve been unable to find a marriage or death for Isabella Raffan Barron, so I donít know what became of her.

On to William Cowie (father of Colin Fraser Barron, b. 1893 - more on him laterÖ). He was named as a soldier residing at Seafield Farm, Cullen, Banffshire. Eventually tracked him down through his military records.

William Leslie Cowie was born on 12 Jun 1876 in Cullen, Banffshire to Alexander Cowie and Mary Ann Findlay (his parents are at Seafield Farm in 1891 and 1901). He enlisted in the Royal Field Artillery - probably the same year his son was born - and served nearly 10 years, including 5 years in Malta. He married Alice Mary Pritchett in 1898 in Portsmouth, Hampshire, England. They had four children in England and Malta before the family emigrated to Canada in 1913. In 1915, William enlisted in the 2nd Canadian Pioneer Battalion at the age of 39. He arrived in Le Havre in March 1916 and was reported missing in action, presumed dead on 5 Apr 1916 at Ypres.

Now interestingly, his son with Margaret Walker Barron - Colin Fraser Barron - also emigrated to Canada and enlisted in the Canadian Overseas Expeditionary Force in 1915. It doesnít appear that he knew his father was there, or that he acknowledged him - he names his grandfather, Joseph Barron, as his father on his enlistment papers, and also named Joseph Barron and Mary Reid has his parents when he married Helen Milne in Ontario in 1921.

Colin Fraser Barron was awarded the Victoria Cross for gallantry under fire at Passchendaele - he survived the war and went on to marry Helen Milne in York, Ontario - he also served in WW2, and died in 1959 in Toronto.

Colin Fraser Barronís half brother - Alexander Barron - whoís father we donít know - also emigrated to Canada and enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force in 1915. He was reported missing in action, presumed dead at Ypres on 6 Jun 1916.

I havenít managed to track down John Mitchell (father of Mary Ann Mitchell Barron b. 1896) - but John Mitchell is another common name. Mary Ann Mitchell Barron married George Lyon Grant in 1919 in Banff - she died in 1961 in Banff.

I do love it when loose ends get tied up - if only I was able to tie up all the ones I have  ;D ;D

Ruth
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 16 July 17 20:20 BST (UK)
Wow Ruth.....Good work indeed!

You've been on a roll, great stuff & I'm sure Teresa will be overjoyed  ;)

Annie
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Sunday 16 July 17 21:37 BST (UK)
Hi Ruth thank you for your help all that information consolidates what we found but were unsure off.
Your help along with all the other here on Rootschat has been tremendous and I can't thank you all enough.  I am waiting on a letter from a cousin of Isabella Haig Stevenson who still lives in Banff.  So I hopefully will know more.  I will let you all know what comes of thats.
Thank you once again
Teresa
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: sioux007 on Sunday 16 July 17 23:36 BST (UK)
WOW!!! Ruth some amazing work there !!
I don't think Bella and I can ever thank ANYONE of you enough for all the hours of work you have put in and the results that you have come up with. Or all the questions you have answered, some before they were even asked! Thank you !!!!
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: sioux007 on Tuesday 18 July 17 06:06 BST (UK)
I know its a bit late but the exact wording of the birth cert reads

Isabella Haig Stevenson
Domestic servant
Usual residence; Wesley
cottage Gellymill, parish of Gamrie

John Duncan
Father
Blackhill,  Parish
of Banff

Thats the way its set out, I think the punctuation is correct for Isabella's as it could be a mark on the page . It is set well under the line.

Is it correct to think that at the time of the childs birth he  lived in that place but may not have come from there?
 
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 18 July 17 08:06 BST (UK)
I know its a bit late but the exact wording of the birth cert reads

Isabella Haig Stevenson
Domestic servant
Usual residence; Wesley
cottage Gellymill, parish of Gamrie

John Duncan
Father
Blackhill,  Parish
of Banff

Thats the way its set out, I think the punctuation is correct for Isabella's as it could be a mark on the page . It is set well under the line.

Is it correct to think that at the time of the childs birth he  lived in that place but may not have come from there?
Yes. I think I tried to make that point several pages ago!
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: sioux007 on Tuesday 18 July 17 10:56 BST (UK)
Thanks, I think my eyes were starting to cross and I missed that bit.
Title: Re: Trying to find relative of Isabella Haig Stevenson
Post by: bellaode on Saturday 05 August 17 05:10 BST (UK)
No more news just yet from Isobella haig Stevenson cousin yet but we have located a couple of children who have died that we did not know about, that were born in between my father the Union of Isabella and John Duncan and his half sisters who were born in the Union of Isabella and John Mitchell (dec).