RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: marcie dean on Tuesday 11 July 17 20:59 BST (UK)
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wanting to find any info on my grtgrandads time in the army in the hope of findin s=a ohoti if him as I dont know any family member who may still have any of him so hoping the army may have his likeness amongst their records when they signed up. think he was a foot soldier on horse, scots greys? same as my grandad in 2nd ww.
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Marcie I'm sorry of this is going to sound negative (no pun intended) but the army did not photograph folk as part of their records. It was common for men to have photos taken at their own expense for their family and these sometimes can be found published in local newspapers. A very long shot sometimes are the historical records of his regiment which may have group photos.
In any event, to find any information at all one really needs to know what regiment he served in. Of the many John Laidlaws in the records, there are not many whose records are full enough for them to be identified. Can you give us his place and date of birth or his father's name, indeed anything that might help find him?
maxD
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I have no knowledge of this man except what i have been told by my grandad. apparently, john was a footsoldier on horse a Scot's' greys' soldier, as my grandfather was following him and as George Grenville Sutherland Levison -gower was before him. I know of no-one in our family who may still have a photos of him, so I am hopeful that his regiment may have a likeness in their records somewhere, I believe he did a tour in India, but cannot be positive that's' correct. my grandad did a tour in Africa/Asia but not as a desert rat with Rommel.he took some Italian prisoners' of war and walked them back over some mountains somewhere,and one of the prisoners carved him a plaque which he left for me when he died, I don't even know if john was buried or cremated, I hope buried, as that may make things easier for DNA checks.although I still have to collect my uncles remain from Scotland's , so could use his samples to check validity of relationship, though my grandad shows a resemblance to the photo on Wiiki of George Grenville Sutherland levison-gower, the 5th. duke of Sutherland.do not know how to download both to have them side by side for comparison though, my grandad has a crease on his head where a bullet it shows in a photo thatI have of him and my nan,a bullet must have grazed him and left him with a dent and a bump must have pushed some bone out of place. lucky b.if that's all that happened to him.
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his regiment as far as I am aware was the scots greysewhich batalioni do not know, his fathers name is not proven as it may have been one of the men in the sutherland household, the father or sons of that household in dispute until dna test prove anything.his adoptive parents were as you know william laidlaw and margaret Anne Laing. he was born in edinbugh in st,cuthberts work- house infirmary, in aug1872.I have also sent to paisley hospital just in case they have records on him that may help as he died there on the 4th. april 1923. waiting to hear from them.
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Duplicate post http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=774826.msg6282771#msg6282771
maxD
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I have no knowledge of this man except what i have been told by my grandad. apparently, john was a footsoldier on horse a Scot's' greys' soldier, as my grandfather was following him and as George Grenville Sutherland Levison -gower was before him.
I don't even know if john was buried or cremated, I hope buried, as that may make things easier for DNA checks.although I still have to collect my uncles remain from Scotland's , so could use his samples to check validity of relationship, though my grandad shows a resemblance to the photo on Wiiki of George Grenville Sutherland levison-gower, the 5th. duke of Sutherland.
Exhumation costs a lot of money - in Scotland you need to contact a solicitor.
https://www.mygov.scot/exhumation-licence/
In England and Wales, you need to apply for a licence:
https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-an-exhumation-licence
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thankyou rveryone for you replies,I guessed it would be a lot of money, but interesting about the differences betweenuk and scotland, did you know that the levison gower family owned estates in ireland as well as scotland an the north of england, one of their ancestors was involved in the irish rebellion 1700? and he leased soperty there for a while. something to do with raising ann armyin ireland to help the dutch against the g-french and the coincidental troubles that followed ni ireland or something any historians thatcan fill in the gaps ive missed please.?where is clevesdon house.?
??
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John Laidlaw was living with William and Margaret in Leith in 1871, age 2, so was not born in St Cuthberts Workhouse Infirmary in 1872. There appears to be no record of his birth prior to his appearance with William and Margaret, who would seem not to be his biological parents. A lot of work has already been done on this following previous posts.
Isobel
Moderator comment: a couple of previous posts on this/similar subject:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,509358.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,478330.0.html
and another current one:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=774857.0
Further background on many other threads
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and inconclusive, I can only tell you what I know have been informed n=by my family, he was born to a seevant in the employ of the sutherlands, she ended up in the workhouse and gave birth in the infirmary, wjhere she died, having no living relsative , it msay well be that he was given up bu=y the church to william and margaret to bring up as their own as their own child william walker laidlaw had died that same year, no I do not have a =birth cert for him nor any sugn of adoption papers, the fact that he was t-recorded as lib=ving uin theitr home on the year of the census form but that in no way says where or when he was born. anbd I know he was born aug 1872. because I was 1 told ands 2 when I did my originsal research I found a docket trporting the birthof a boy, but i was only 18 at the time and did not realise how important this pc of info was to me , my family or anything.
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the fact that he was t-recorded as lib=ving uin theitr home on the year of the census form but that in no way says where or when he was born. anbd I know he was born aug 1872
I'm not following this Marcie. How could he be recorded in the 1871 census as living with them if, as you claim, he wasn't born until 1872?
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the fact that he was recorded as lib=living In their home on the year of the census form but that in no way says where or when he was born. and I know he was born aug 1872
I'm not following this Marcie. How could he be recorded in the 1871 census as living with them if, as you claim, he wasn't born until 1872?
I dont know still got to find the death of their son william walker mght clarify the date a litttle moreprthaps if their son died 1869 and he was born 1970 living eiyth them in 1871 maybe they msade it official in 1872 and I do have his birthdatr incorrect but I can only go by whatI as told and the pc of info found all those years ago.Only wish that I stilll had it.
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the problem was it was just a piece of paper not an official documrnt it was just as though someone had made a note ready to update some file or otherjust said baby boy born aug 1872
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John Laidlaw's service records are on Ancestry. He appears to have served in the 11th Hussars ( reg number 3347) from which he was discharged in 1902 ( this might explain his absence from the 1901 census). He rejoined the army in August 1914 and I think he ended the war in the Labour Corps. I'm not great at deciphering these records, but someone with more knowledge might be able to provide more info.
The Statement of Disability included in the records has the same address - 3 Albert Street , Edinburgh - as appears on his death certificate in 1923.
Isobel
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Attestation Papers for the Hussars are in Findmypast. He joined at Canterbury on 15th Oct 1891 when he was 22 years and 7 months old ( giving birth around March/April 1869). Next of kin is father William of 38 Duke Street, Leith ( this is scored out and 11 Henrietta Street, Glasgow added). Details of his 1904 marriage to Marjory are also included. He appears to have served in India and South Africa.
Isobel
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the fact that he was recorded as lib=living In their home on the year of the census form but that in no way says where or when he was born. and I know he was born aug 1872
I'm not following this Marcie. How could he be recorded in the 1871 census as living with them if, as you claim, he wasn't born until 1872?
I dont know still got to find the death of their son william walker mght clarify the date a litttle moreprthaps if their son died 1869 and he was born 1970 living eiyth them in 1871 maybe they msade it official in 1872 and I do have his birthdatr incorrect but I can only go by whatI as told and the pc of info found all those years ago.Only wish that I stilll had it.
William and Margaret's own son was actually called Charles William Laidlaw and was born in 1863 and died in 1864.
Isobel
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Marcie
IsobelW's find of John Laidlaw's service record is a goldmine. Interpreting his record further:
Served Oct 91 to Mar 92 and then deserted
Rejoined Sep 93 (not court martialled because of rejoining but served a short imprisonment).
Served in India and the Boer War temporarily with the 8th Hussars and the Scottish Horse.
Completed his engagement in Aug 02
Served two more reserve years Sep 09 to Mar 11
Rejoined for the Great War on 31 Aug 14
Initially in the Reserve Cavalry Regiment, then Labour Corps and then (Nov 1917) to the Army Service Corps (Mechanical Transport).
Served throughout in UK, discharged in Mar 1919.
There are Boer War records for him.
maxD
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Thanks MaxD for casting your expert eye over the army records. Is it unusual for someone of John's background to join the Hussars? I'm just wondering whether John did have someone of influence looking out for him, as Marcie has been led to believe by various family stories.
Isobel
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His occupation when joining was horse keeper so that would fit. As to his background, for the run of the mill soldier that would play no real part, it was the officers who tended to come from the more rarified sector of the population! The family stories don't appear all that reliable (as it often the case), his record has an 1869 date of birth.
There is a lot of detail to be squeezed out of the various records but I need a little time.
maxD
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Marcie
I am working on putting more detail on your great grandad's service history but I thought that I should tell you straight away about one part of it that I hope you will find interesting.
One of the things you wanted was a photo. While his records, like all of them, do not contain a photo, I have found a photograph of some of the men with some of the equipment of the company in which he served from November 1917 to the end of the war. Thanks to a fine gentleman on another forum I expect to get a high resolution copy of the photo in the next few days. If you would like to send me a direct email address via a personal message I shall make sure you get it.
More in due course.
maxD
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How interesting! Thanks for the update MaxD.
I think this site is wonderful in the way it allows people with expertise in different areas to work together to hopefully discover something new for the OP. Marcie has been researching her grandfather for a long time - I hope this helps her progress a little further.
Isobel
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I agree. If you hadn't connected the family info with the service record I would have continued to ignore it (I had seen it but couldn't follow the family twists and turns!!). As it is, our combined efforts got us a bit further for Marcie.
Until I have it all buttoned up I won't go into too much detail but the unit for which I am due to get the photo worked at times through the rail station at Amesbury in Wiltshire, 200 yards from where I am now sitting and where our local supermarket is situated today!!! Our previous house was even closer to the railway line to Larkhill which they used, gone now but the line of the railway is still a popular walk called the apple track because, allegedly, all the apple trees along the track came from pips thrown from the trains by the troops.
More to come.
maxD
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bldy.... right I will thanx maxd ive tried family with no results so far todate
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Edinburgh Evening News 7 April 1923 reports the funeral of John Laidlaw ex 11th Hussar to take place at Rosebank Cemetery 3 pm 8 April 1923. There does not appear to be a crematorium there so he was buried.
maxD
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thank you , again maxd;when I go up to scotland I will take a look and see if I can find his grave, take photo. see if the minster has any info that I can use. never know the family may have told him something that can help me with my quest.
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His occupation when joining was horse keeper so that would fit. As to his background, for the run of the mill soldier that would play no real part, it was the officers who tended to come from the more rarified sector of the population! The family stories don't appear all that reliable (as it often the case), his record has an 1869 date of birth.
There is a lot of detail to be squeezed out of the various records but I need a little time.
maxD
so I now need to find william walkers death, to tie in with when he was given to william laidlaw and margaret anne laing to bring up as their son.that would then tie a lot of it together, I am getting in touch again woth thee countesses home until she died dunrobun castle , apprently she kept journals, I am hoing against hip that she may have kept a list of the servantsthat she employed and possibly msade commennts about, their work, if she dismissed any and for what reason, I font know whether they are avaible for anyone to read, it is no t as though they are her published memoirs, dont think she ever did those either, there is some works listed for some of the female members who had things published, harriet the frst dukes wife, elizabeth gotdons father williams wife byt not her mother I believe,I am also related to the seton family, alexander seton and a few others, but also the hamiltons though from what nfo I have founfd on them, people who were not necessarilly their kin, were allowed to have the patronage of their name just by wotking for them and fighting fo them ewhen and if required against their enemies of the time.
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Edinburgh Evening News 7 April 1923 reports the funeral of John Laidlaw ex 11th Hussar to take place at Rosebank Cemetery 3 pm 8 April 1923. There does not appear to be a crematorium there so he was buried.
maxD
Also mentions it would be a military funeral and mentions Roman Eagle Lodge
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marcie,
Which William Walker are you referring to? There is William Walker Laidlaw - John's son born in 1904 and died the same year - or is it William Walker b 1843. Was he John's apparent father?
There were 5 girls and 3 boys living.
William Walker laidlaw born August 1904 died the same year as birth, he was also named after another William Walker born in 1843.
Agnes Barron Brown Laidlaw 1906
Robert Clermiston B. Laidlaw 1908
Lily Laidlaw 1909
Margaret 1910
James Hutchison Laidlaw 1912
Marjory 1913?
Alexander 1915 I also think that there was a Mary Margaret not sure on birth year
The William Walker Laidlaw b 1843 might have died in 1913. There is an entry in the index for a William Walker Laidlaw aged 70 in 1913. There are two others for William Walker Laidlaw: one aged 7 who died in 1911 and another in the service returns in 1915 aged 21.
Rosebank Cemetery is a municipal cemetery - no minister. And surely if there were a minister, John died in 1923 and I suspect that the minister is also long since gone.
Last time I was at Rosebank, I spoke to someone who was in the 'office' who may have been no more than a groundsman/caretaker. He was able to point out the various sections of the cemetery. To find where John Laidlaw was buried, you would need to contact Mortonhall - see this page:
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/directory_record/18725/rosebank_cemetery
The very solid information about John Laidlaw (including his birth date being earlier than you had been led to believe) that you have been given by so many RootsChatters seems to be at odds with what you have been told as part of the family history. If I remember all the other threads correctly, the age that was given for John in census records and death records and now his attestation records was consistent with that earlier date. If the records do not support the family stories, perhaps it might be time to re-evaluate things?
Nell
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The Roman Eagle is a reference to the French regimental bronze eagle captured by the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo. The Roman Eagle Lodge was (is?) a Masonic Lodge no doubt full of ex Scots Greys and other cavalrymen. This may be where the Scots Greys come in to Marcie's family stories, he would have been a member of that lodge.
maxD
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Marcie
I said earlier that GtGrandather served only in UK in the Great War. Now that I have had a chance to look more carefully, I see that in fact he did serve in France, (with the 18th Hussars) until mid 1916 when his medical category was assessed as fit for home service only and he returned to UK. His record is badly damaged and many parts are impossible to read - my excuse!. More details in the service history I am sending you direct.
maxD
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thsnk youmaxd this is so kind and much appreciated!
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In case anyone else is interested, from his two sets of service records, medal records (Boer War and Great War) and other snippets, I have been able to pass Marcie a summary of John Laidlaw's fine record of service. His first period comprised active service from 1891 to 1902 (marred only by a short spell on the run) with the 11th Hussars at home, in India and in the Boer War (where he served with the 8th Hussars and the Imperial Light Horse) and then on the reserve until 1911. He joined again right at the beginning of the Great War and by September 1914 was in France, eventually with the 18th Hussars. From mid 1916, as a result of a C2 medical assessment, he served at home, briefly in the Labour Corps and from mid 1917 in the Army Service Corps, being discharged in March 1919. Pretty impressive service for his country.
maxD
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thanx maxd:I owe you a tipple this is so good, havent had mich luck finding out much about how he came ito this world beforewilliam and margaret anne laing.
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You are welcome Marcie but I'll stick to the purely military side of things which I'm better at than family trees! Good luck
maxD
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I think john, having been adopted by this couple william and margaret probably thought that it would be a nice thing to do, naming his son after willliam's son, but the boy actually died on the first anniversary day of their wedding, how awful is that so happy to be together, only for that to happen, marjory was already pregnant when they married, she was 19 and ran the families greengrocer shop in 32 giles street edinburgh, no longer there of course, he was 32 which is why quite quickly after that she fell pregnant again as you are aware they had 5 daughters and three other sons including my grandad robert clermiston brown laidlaw born 1908 4th aug. died aged 74
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looks like the information on johns birth that I was given by my family was a little mis-information I was told that my grandads name was given to him to remind us all of where we cs=ame from, backed up by the story of the servant who worked in the dukes householdand became pregnant lost her job because of it, lost her life in childbirth, lost her baby to another couple and her
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addendum I looked up william and margarets son, he was dead, marjory and john had their son called him the same name only for him to die in the anniversary of their wedding day williams own father was charles laidlaw wife I believe was johannes foster.so now I am becoming confused and there is no-oneleft aluive that I can ask. so I suppose just plod on and prove whar i ca to be right, and right the info ths=at I find isn't.good road ahead, what d'you think?( again this was when I was 15/18yrs old. so f=dont know dont have that info never printed it off did not think I needed to because i committed it all to memory which those days was v good.