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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Durham => England => Durham Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Relsearcher on Friday 21 July 17 12:28 BST (UK)
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Hi! I was hoping someone could help me work out which is the right Mary Ann Green that I am after. There appear to be 2 possibilities:
Mary Ann Green
Q2, 1885, 10a, 321 - Lanchester, Durham
Mary Ann Green
Q2, 1884, 10a, 928 - Gateshead, Durham
In the 1911 Census her birth place is listed as Wrekenton which makes me think the Gateshead record might be right, but her DOB is listed as 1885, which fits in with the Lanchester record, and there were members of the extended family also living there, so I cannot narrow it without finding out who the parents were of both the births above!
I have looked online for any Durham area Baptism records for those years which would be a great help, but cannot locate any.
If anyone could do a lookup for me I would be able to decide which is 'my' Mary Ann Green and then press on down the right path!
Many thanks in advance,
Nina
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Hi
Do you know who she married? That would give you some idea from the marriage certificate.
Also if she is alive on the 1939 index that would give you her date of birth with would suggest one birth or the other.
But of course she died 1921.The marriage was at Tynemouth 1909.
The mothers maiden names are Coyne in 1885 and Hewitt in 1884.
There's a 1901 census for Mary Ann green age 16 born Wrenkenton d of James and Rose ,with Rose as the second wife.Could that be her?
Does any of that help?
Ciderdrinker
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Ciderdrinker pipped me at the post with the mother's maiden names, but you can find them for yourself at
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
(Registration required, but no payment unless you order a certificate)
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Hi ciderdrinker and arthurk - I shall check on those maiden names and see if I can find the marriages and therefore the right Mary! She married William Gillead in 1909 (lots of spellings for that). I have also come across the 1901 census and thought that that was her, but going backwards to the 1891 and further becomes quite convoluted with the Green clan and made me wonder if perhaps she was actually not the daughter of James Green??? I need to do more digging! Many thanks to you both for your swift help - it gives me something to go on! Nina
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Hi me again
It looks like that James Green married Bridget Coyne at Chester le street June 1884 and she died aged 22 at Lanchester June 1886.Which fits with he remarrying Rose Ann Farrell in Sep 1891.
Ciderdrinker
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You got there before me! Do you know the name of the Green that Hewitt married in 1884?
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It seems Mary Ann Green born 1885 mmn Coyne had a brother Thomas born 1886 Lanchester. He's not on the 1891 Census with Mary who is in a household in Heworth belonging to a John Green. Mary is listed as his daughter but surely it must be his granddaughter? No sign of Thomas ...
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You got there before me! Do you know the name of the Green that Hewitt married in 1884?
There is baptism on Family Search, in Gateshead for the 1884 Green - Hewitt, Mary (Ann). It was at St Josephs RC Church so the names are 'latinised' and parents were Jacobi (James) and Annae (Ann)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMQ7-RMV
Which complicates matters as the father in this case is another James Green. So far I am not finding a definite James Green- Ann Hewitt marriage, though there is a James Green - Mary Ann Hewitt marriage in Carlisle District in Q4 1878.
The Tynemouth Registrars reference for the 1909 Gilliead-Green marriage is Register Book W89, entry 150. That book reference is not on the list of Anglican Church codes, so it was very likely to be either at a registrars office or was registrar attended at a non conformist place of worship.
Boo
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Hi Boo ... Thanks for all the info! I also came across the 1878 Hewitt-Green marriage and it certainly doesn't help at all that he was also a James ...
Do all latinised records mean that it was a RC church? I have come across quite a few whilst doing this tree. Sorry for my ignorance ...
Thanks for the info re the register book for the 1909 marriage - very interesting.
I have tried to find a death for Mary Ann Green nee Hewitt because then I thought I could rule her in or out as the mother depending on when she died but it is a bit of a needle in a haystack.
Would anyone be going to the Durham archives at any time who could look up the 2 full birth entries from 1884 and 1885 for Mary Ann Green or her marriage in 1909? No doubt both fathers on the birth entries and the one on the marriage will be called James and be coal miners (?), but the address of birth and marriage etc might help clinch the right record?!
If not, no worries.
Nina
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Do all latinised records mean that it was a RC church? I have come across quite a few whilst doing this tree.
'latinised' records are highly likely to be RC ones, though I have no doubt that there are exceptions :-)
If you look at the baptism record on Family Search, it says it was St Joseph's but if you aren't sure which flavour of religion - or the transcription doesn't give a specific church name the record quotes a film number, that the record was transcribed from. Search the Catalogue on Family Search for the film number and it tells you which church it was and also says it was Catholic.
I have tried to find a death for Mary Ann Green nee Hewitt because then I thought I could rule her in or out as the mother depending on when she died but it is a bit of a needle in a haystack.
There are other possible scenarios, maybe Mary Ann Hewitt was her birth name, she may have been married and widowed previously and then married using just her married name on the register - or they may have married outside England & Wales (Ireland? Scotland?) don't discount anything until you find something that disproves it.
Would anyone be going to the Durham archives at any time who could look up the 2 full birth entries from 1884 and 1885 for Mary Ann Green or her marriage in 1909?
Baptism records would be available at DRO, but not civil certificates, they are only available from Registrars/ GRO.
The baptism entry for 1884 is an RC one and therefore may well not have father's occupation /address as the RC registers were not in the same format as Anglican ones. BUT - there is an outside chance that a later marriage was noted on the baptism record. Its a slim chance but if this Mary Ann later married in a Catholic Church, she would have been asked where she was baptised and the priest would have checked with the parish in which she was baptised.
If you can get to Tyne and Wear Archives I know they have microfilms of St Joseph's registers. If that is not possible, and you have an LDS Family History Centre near you, you can go there and they will let you use their computers to see the digital scans of the register. (they aren't generally available outside of a Family History Centre)
The marriage was registered in Tynemouth District, so not in Durham, but in Northumberland, plus it 'may' have been at a Register Office rather than a place of worship so its possible that the only record for it would be a marriage certificate.
Boo
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Hi Boo ... Thanks for the info! I didn't know that about Familysearch so that is very useful.
I have just come across several trees on Ancestry with Mary Ann Hewitt DOM 1878 Carlisle marrying James Green and none of their children are called Mary Ann. They are based in Carlisle and the Byker area of Newcastle. Not that Ancestry trees are always correct, esp thanks to the 'Hints' which can take the unwary down the wrong path, but it does look like this couple may not be the parents of my Mary Ann Green?
Sadly I do not live in the UK which does make it an issue when I would like to go to various archive offices in person. I always used to do my own digging when I lived in UK - something I really enjoy and miss not being able to do!
Do you think my best option would be to get hold of the 1909 marriage cert for Mary Ann Green and William Gilliead rather than either of the birth certs for her?
Nina
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Sadly I do not live in the UK which does make it an issue when I would like to go to various archive offices in person. I always used to do my own digging when I lived in UK - something I really enjoy and miss not being able to do!
I have used LDS Family History Centres in Canada, England and now Scotland. I am extremely grateful to the LDS for their generosity in sharing the films/scans of original records with people like me who are not church members. Wherever you are there is a chance that there is a centre local to you, its free of charge and I find the people to be very friendly and helpful when I visit.
https://familysearch.org/locations/ that link will tell if there one you can get to.
and this link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kfi/ shows their holdings for St Joseph's, RC, Gateshead. Any item with a camera icon means they have digitised the records, 'sometimes' you can see them from any computer and sometimes you get a message saying they are only available to view at a Centre - but that is free. If its a film roll icon, then is possible to order the film in to any centre (though there will be a small charge for that)
I have a fair few records from St Joseph's and just looked at some which are slightly later than the 1884 baptism we are talking about but there are a good few amongst them that have been annotated when the child grew up and married.
Do you think my best option would be to get hold of the 1909 marriage cert for Mary Ann Green and William Gilliead rather than either of the birth certs for her?
Do you know for sure that her Dad was James Green? I try to document the steps backwards, verifying at each stage that I am on the right track, especially for the direct line. If you don't have any evidence of who her father was then a marriage cert, as it 'may' have been at a Register Office, is probably the only way to find out. From there you can try the marriage records, census returns, etc, to try to find the family and track backwards.
You could try contacting the owner of the tree you looked at to see if they have any clues. Some trees on ancestry are reliable, some aren't. I look at them now and then and my usual rule of thumb is that I look at the number of people in the tree, if it runs into the 1000s then I gently close the page.
If I live a hundred lifetimes, I won't have the time to research that amount of people in any sort of accurate detail. I don't mean to disparage anyone, we each do our own thing, but I really am wary of the validity of very large trees :-)
Boo
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Hi Boo ... Thanks, I will check the LDS centre locations!
No, I cannot be sure her father is James. I have her married to William Gilliead (numerous spellings for that through the records) in the 1911 Census, aged 26 and born in Wrekenton, Durham. I thought Wrekenton was Gateshead so the enumerator clearly made an error there! They have their first daughter Susannah by this point and were living in Dipton, Durham.
Going back to the 1901 census I found a MAG, aged 16, born Wrekenton, and listed as daughter to head of the house James Green. Rose is his second wife and not the mother of Mary Ann. They were living in Felling, Heworth.
That's when I was looking to find her birth record and came across the 2 most likely in 1884 Gateshead and 1885 Lanchester.
If the MAG in these census returns was the 1885 Lanchester birth with MMN Coyne (Bridget) who married James Green 1884, then there was a second child Thomas born and died 1886 Lanchester. Bridget also died 1886 Lanchester. James married Rose Ann Farrell late in 1891 Gateshead.
In the 1891 census I found a MAG, age 6 but born Crook, Durham, in a household in Windy Nook, Heworth, where she is described as daughter to head of house John Green aged 64 who I think would actually be her grandfather. James is listed in the same house but as single not widowed and his age looks a bit off. May not be the right household.
The same family in the 1881 census are living in Tow Law, Durham, and in 1871 in Leadgate.
I therefore think the marriage cert would be the best one to get hold of since I cannot be certain re the father or whether the 1884 or 1885 births are the right one ... I get the feeling the father will be a James though which may not help but it would reveal his occupation.
The James in the above census returns was a coal miner, the James who married Hewitt in Carlisle 1878 and were parents of the MAG born 1884 Gateshead appears to have worked on the railways.
What do you think - does any of the above look likely? I'm starting to get brain fuzz.
Nina
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I have her married to William Gilliead (numerous spellings for that through the records) in the 1911 Census, aged 26 and born in Wrekenton, Durham. I thought Wrekenton was Gateshead so the enumerator clearly made an error there!
The 'error' wasn't made by the enumerator, but by whoever filled in and signed the form (William Gilliead?) . You are seeing the original householders form in the 1911 census :)
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If you have different occupations for the two James Greens then the marriage cert is the only document I can think of that may confirm which one was her Dad.
and though Wrekenton was/is part of Gateshead its right at the edge and way back then would have been a day out to the country from people in the town of Gateshead. Both Gateshead and Wrekenton are in County Durham.
Boo
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I shall go ahead and order the marriage cert! Thanks Boo for all your help and geography info, and thanks JenB for the census info! It takes up to 4 weeks to get certs from the GRO when they are posting abroad but I shall get back to you once I have the cert to let you know what it says! Nina
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FreeReg has the death of a Mary Ann Green, age 0, Jun qtr 1884, Gateshead.
Durham Records Online free search facility has the burial of a Mary Ann Green, 1884, age 0, daughter of James Green of 17 Old Fold, Gateshead. The paid facility is unlikely to have much more info other than exact date of burial and maybe fathers occupation. But this is likely to be the daughter of James Green and Ann Hewitt.
Alan.
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Thanks Alan - that's great info! Nina
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If it helps anyone there is a marriage at Birtley St. Joseph (RC)
26 Apr 1884, James Green of Eighton Banks, son of John Green married Brigid Coyne of Eighton Banks, daughter of Thomas Coyne. Witnesses: Jane Rogers, Wrekenton and Mary Cullen, Wrekenton.
Sorry no ages or occupations
Janis
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Thank you Janis - pls excuse such a delayed reply - have not been doing the tree for some time due to other committments! Nina
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As an aside, I know it takes quite some time to get a BMD cert posted abroad from the GRO but if, like me, you are only after the information and can live without it being on a posh piece of paper, you can now order a .pdf scan of the original register entry for a birth or death from the GRO. Still takes up to two weeks but once its ready they email you a link and you can download it. At £6 a go its also slightly cheaper.
At the moment marriages are not included for this option, but I live in hope (and keep asking them every now and then!)
Boo
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Hi Boo ... yes, I had a look and saw they are not doing pdf of marriages at the moment ... just so typical! The pdf service will be great if they can roll it out in its entirety, esp for us living abroad ... it is painful having to wait weeks to get the cert in the post.
Nina
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The turn around time for birth and death PDF's is 6 days.
Janis
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The turn around time for birth and death PDF's is 6 days.
Janis
Hi Janis, yes, you are right. They do aim to provide them within 6 'working' days. I erred on the side of caution as it depends on the timing of placing the order, to include weekends and bank holidays. That way its a nice surprise when they arrive :-)
Boo