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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: MacGrigor on Tuesday 25 July 17 15:22 BST (UK)
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Hello,
These are my great-great-grandparents. William Frederick was born in 1865, in Norwell, Nottinghamshire, growing up with his paternal aunt and uncle (I have confirmed this through GRO). Ellen was born in 1870, in Wigston. They are believed to have married in c. 1888, according to the 1911 Census record, although I cannot find a record. Can anyone help?
Thanks,
Adam McGregor
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Where do you have them on census in 1891
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They should be in Wigston. I'll check.
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Yes, it is Wigston. Moat Street, where my grandfather was also born. First child, William, born c. 1890, in Wigston.
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That William F is born Newark ;D There is another William F born around the same time at Norwell living with his sister
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There are two?
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Can you link me the two records? My William F was married to Ellen and living in Wigston. Perhaps I have been researching the wrong person.
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This is the other one in 1891
RG12/Piece2710 f31 p30
William F Cartwright - Single- 23 - Ag Lab bn Norwell, Notts
Annie Cartwright - Single- Sister -22 -bn Bathley, Notts
Annie D Cartwright - 2 - Niece-bn Bathley, Notts
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Then I've been researching the wrong person. It's William Cartwright born c. 1866, in Newark.
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Moat St is Wigston Magna ( as apposed to South Wigston which is close by)
Norwell and Bathley are villages just a short distance west of Newark, just along the A1 ( about 5 miles)
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I'm confused. I've reviewed my files, and found I downloaded the wrong 1891 Census record. The correct one shows him as plain old William, born in 1866 in Newark. He cannot therefore be the same man as the one who living in Norwell at the same time.
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Births Mar 1865 Cartwright William Southwell 7b 301
Births Dec 1866 Cartwright William F Southwell 7b 269
Southwell is the registration district for Norwell and Bathley
I can find none registered in Newark
Most people would say 'Newark' if they were born Norwell or Bathley even now
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I thought it might be. The Pearce family. Still a cousin of William F. Therefore son of Samuel and Jessie Cartwright, who married in 1866, in Norwell.
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Name William Cartwright
Event Type Census
Event Date 1871
Event Place Norwell Woodhouse, Norwell, Nottinghamshire, England
Enumeration District 12
Gender Male
Age 6
Marital Status Unmarried
Occupation Scholar
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Birth Year (Estimated) 1865
Birthplace Norwell, Nottinghamshire
Entry Number 5
Affiliate Image Identifier GBC/1871/3537/0032
Samuel Cartwright Head M 38 Norwell, Nottinghamshire
Jessy Cartwright Wife F 36 Norwell Woodhouse, Nottinghamshire
Mary Cartwright Daughter F 11 Markham, Nottinghamshire
William Cartwright Son M 6 Norwell, Nottinghamshire
John Cartwright Son M 3 Bleasby, Nottinghamshire
June Cartwright Daughter F 1 Norwell Woodhouse, Nottingha
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Thanks, that's the one. Turns out I was half right. Just need to revise the maternal side of the family now. Pearce not Lambert.
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I thought it might be. The Pearce family. Still a cousin of William F. Therefore son of Samuel and Jessie Cartwright, who married in 1866, in Norwell.
Have you researched and found the record for this or is it a guess? As it seems they were in Markham Notts in 1860ish registering Mary
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Yes, it used to be my belief that these two are the parents. You'll see that the couple don't have children for years after Mary, so I suspect she may have been illegitimate. William's mother is given as Pearce on his birth certificate, and his parents married in 1864.
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Of course she could have been, they also could also have lost children and to prove you need to research parish records and find baptisms/burials. I see they married in 4Q of 1864
When I began researching my 'belief' based on what I was told by my grandmother that her mother 'might' have been married before, my research proved she wasn't, that she was 15yrs younger than what was written on her marriage cert, all and any census and her death cert and it was her father who was married previously AND had 5 children, 4 of which died a few hours old and the one that lived of course was not my grandmas sister but her half sister....... none of which she ever knew
ADD: I see Samuel is in North Collingham working for the 'Shaws family' and single in the 1861 census
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That's certainly intriguing. Genealogy can be a very difficult business in terms of research, but can also dig up all sorts of unimaginable things. For one of my great-grandmothers, she was the only child to survive infancy. In both the 1871 and 1881 census, there are different children that tragically died young. Nowadays it is difficult to imagine the trauma that our forebears went through.
However, regardless of the legitimacy or illegitimacy of William's older sister, he was born a year after his parents married, with the same maiden name that his mother had had in 1864. One set of my great-great-grandparents had a child in 1871, but actually married in 1873. In this case also, my ancestor was born legitimate. I think that it was probably a mistake, but they stuck together for appearance's sake in both cases.
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Yes a different era, people tended to marry as it was 'shameful' for the family for them not to.
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Exactly. In fact, I suspect that the subjects this thread may not have been married. There was a rumour in my family, but nothing substantiated.
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William and Ellen?
Or maybe married later in life. One set of my great grandparents stated on the 1911 that they were married for 20 odd years and I searched for their marriage for years and accidentally found it while looking for a marriage in parish records of one of their daughters. He was previously married and they waited for her to die, 3 months after they married presumeably as it was too expensive to divorce
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Yes, William and Ellen. William died in 1910, but his wife lived another 40 years, so I don't think they would have had time for a formal wedding, if they weren't married.
Gosh, yes of course it would have been extremely expensive to divorce back then. Even if any of my ancestors were born illegitimate, I've yet to find one who grew up with only one parent, which makes me proud, and I hope they stuck together because of love rather than societal expectations.
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So is this William in 1881?
Name W F Cartwright
Event Type Census
Event Date 1881
Event Place Bathley, Nottinghamshire, England
Registration District Southwell
Residence Note Village Street
Gender Male
Age 14
Marital Status (Original) Single
Occupation Farm Serv
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Birth Year (Estimated) 1867
Birthplace Norwell, Nottinghamshire, England
Page Number 27
Registration Number RG11
Piece/Folio 3372/31
Affiliate Record Type Household
Ann Cartwright Head F 51 Ossington, Nottinghamshire, England
Emma Cartwright Daughter F 20 Norwell, Nottinghamshire, England
Charles Cartwright Son M 17 Norwell, Nottinghamshire, England
W F Cartwright Son M 14 Norwell, Nottinghamshire, England
Ann E Cartwright Daughter F 12 Bathley, Nottinghamshire, England
Rosa Cartwright Grand Daughter F 12 Bathley, Nottinghamshire, England
The Cartwrights are an old family going back centuries in this area ( not saying it is the same Cartwright family) however when I saw Ossington I suspect it could be the same family.
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/articles/tts/tts1909/cartwrights/cartwright1.htm
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That's William F., the one I got mixed up. His mother is Ann, formerly Lambert. William disappears for the 1881 Census. He wasn't involved in farm work either - he was a chimney sweep, which is just about as working-class as my family gets, the bulk being agricultural labourers.
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As for the history, I can get back to John Cartwright, born 1796 in Caunton. His parents were John and Mary, although I can find nothing on them. He married Mary Hallam of Norwell in 1812, in Norwell. She was born in 1793.
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Sounds like you need a visit to the area....... Peter used to be the vicar at St Laurence Church ( not sure about now) not sure who was /is Carlton on Trent St Marys, or if Peter covered that too ( or not) he did cover St Andrews in Caunton
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I'll have to have a look into it. Parish records are always the place to look.
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From the Notts FHS CD
1865 04 23
Son William father Samuel CARTWRIGHT mother Jessy
Father's occ Labourer
abode Norwell
parish name NORWELL St Lawrence
and the parental marriage:
1864 10 27 Samuel CARTWRIGHT and Jessie PEARCE @ NORWELL St Lawrence
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two more baptisms for this couple:
1868 01 20 John Samuel CARTWRIGHT Jesse Labourer
Hoveringham HOVERINGHAM St Michael
1872 03 17 Dau Rosa Samuel CARTWRIGHT Jessie Labourer Norwell Woodhouse NORWELL St Lawrence
I don't see a baptism for June. Let me see if I can find Mary:
added -- nope,, can't find Mary's baptism under either possible parental name!
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As for the history, I can get back to John Cartwright, born 1796 in Caunton. His parents were John and Mary, although I can find nothing on them. He married Mary Hallam of Norwell in 1812, in Norwell. She was born in 1793.
According to my CD, the only John Cartwright bapt in Caunton had different parents:
baptism:
birthdate 1790 10 09 baptism date 1790 10 10
John
father Wm CARTWRIGHT
mother Elizth
parish CAUNTON St Andrews
There was a John Cartwright, son of John and Mary, baptised at Newark St Mary Magdalene in 1996. Maybe this one is yours? ie not at Caunton?
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And I am feeling horribly like the bearer of bad tidings for all your research, but the only Mary Hallam at Norwell in the right time frame was baptised in 1792, not 1793:
1792 03 00 Dau Mary
father John HALLAM mother Elizabeth
abode Norwell
parish NORWELL St Lawrence
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Well thank you for all this information Annie65115. Mary Hallam is probably the same one born in 1792. A year here or there isn't usually much difference. As for the John Cartwright of Caunton, I think I'll have to look again at the census records, to make sure of his age.