RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: jmec73 on Saturday 29 July 17 19:01 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm hoping someone might be able to help me. My grandfather was adopted and I'm trying to find the date of his adopted father' birth. My grandfather was Gordon James Cole (b.1905) and his adopted father was Arthur George Cole who I'm assuming died between 1901-11 as he's on one census but not the later. In 1901 he is living in Chichester and married in Gosport in 1876. Any help with when he was born would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Jon
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What age does it say for him on the 1901 census?
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Arthur George Cole who I'm assuming died between 1901-11 as he's on one census
How old was he in 1901 and where does it say that he was born? Have you got his father's name from his marriage certificate?
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Where did you get this information as I cannot see it on free bmd:
'married in Gosport in 1876'
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I was about to ask that as well, Chempat, as I can't see a marriage either.
I also can't see a death that fits between 1901 and 1911. We need the information from 1901, please.
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Is this Gordon James in 1911, presumably with his adopted Mother:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X71H-7XF
born Brighton Sussex, living in Chichester
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Earlier post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=388311.0
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I'm puzzled here. I've found Gordon in 1911 with mother Alice and a brother Lawrence Henry born 1889.
However this is the 1901 - no Arthur, Alice is already a widow.
Alice E Cole 38
Lawrence H Cole 12
Richard Keates 7
Naomi Keates 3
Have I got the right family?
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Marriage, as approximately the right area?
Marriages September quarter 1886
Alice Elizabeth Burchett Alverstoke 2b 876
Arthur George Cole Alverstoke 2b 876
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Lawrence's birth from GRO:
Lawrence Henry Cole mmn Burchell
1888 December Quarter in Westhampnett
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So where is Arthur George in 1901 as Jon said he was is Chichester?
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Need the marriage certificate for Arthur's occupation and his Father's name etc.
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Tree on Ancestry has William Wheatly Cole as another son of Arthur and Alice - Cole mmn Burchett, 1887, Eastbourne, and a baptism
William Wheatley Cole Baptised 16th October 1887 at All Saints, Portfield, Sussex, England
Father: Arthur George Cole
Mother: Alice Elizabeth
The tree suggests that Arthur George was born around 1860, possibly in Eastbourne, but no parents or census entries for him.
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Hi everyone, many, many thanks for all the help and investigations, very much appreciated. I had forgotten until someone shared the link that I'd asked a related question previously which is where there 1901 address came from, presumably via the census. Looking back through the million docs I have which I need to transcribe, I see that Alice was a widow on the 1901 census, so clearly he died before that, and I see someone else spotted that. Hopefully we can find his death details before 1901 then.
Thanks again,
Jon.
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Something to think about, if he died before 1901, which looks likely, that was years before your grandfather was born. So he wasn't really his adopted son.
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Hi, thanks, that's a good point. I think because of the confusion I had over the 1901 census it was a possibility, but clearly not the case, and he was adopted after he'd died. Would be nice for completeness in my tree to have a birth and death date if possible though. I see someone had a possible date of around 1860 from an Ancestry tree for his birth. I've not located a death date myself yet from the free sources.
Thanks again,
Jon.
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Tree on Ancestry has William Wheatly Cole as another son of Arthur and Alice - Cole mmn Burchett, 1887, Eastbourne, and a baptism
In 1901, William is in The Oliver Whitby Charity school in Chichester - could that be because his father has died?
RG13; Piece: 969; Folio: 19; Page: 2
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Little bit more about William just for interest.
He joined the 3rd Royal Sussex Regiment on the 8th November 1905, giving his next of kin as his mother, Alice E Cole. His (and her) address was 16, St Francis, Chichester and occupation gardener. By 1911 he was in India.
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Thank you very much, and really interesting too. I know my grandfather was in the army between the wars in India, although need to request his records to know the precise details, but perhaps this was the motivation if his adopted brother was also.
Jon
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I'm wondering whether perhaps Arthur didn't die, but the family split up?
He was obviously about in 1888 as Lawrence was born the following year. Yet in 1891, William and Lawrence aged 3 and 2 are with Alice's mother and her new husband. Alice is working as a servant (nurse) in Cheshunt, Hertfordshire. She says she is single, but perhaps had to claim that to get a job.
She is back with her family in 1901 and says she is a widow, but we obviously don't know if this is the truth or just what she wants people to think.
It does seem odd that in such circumstances she should take in another child in 1905. Remember that there was no formal adoption until 1927, so any arrangement would have been informal. Do you have Gordon James Cole's birth certificate?
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William Wheatley Cole Baptised 16th October 1887 at All Saints, Portfield, Sussex, England
Father: Arthur George Cole
Mother: Alice Elizabeth
Occupation of father - Late Sergeant Major
No occupation given on baptism of Lawrence
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Occupation of father - Late Sergeant Major
Interesting - I wonder if he enlisted again and went abroad?
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In between the two baptisms, might be a brief mention of an Arthur George Cole in the Chichester Observer, 27 June 1888. Re a pub licence?
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The marriage certificate to Alice would give a name for Arthur George's father etc etc do you intend to get it?
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Can I ask, how do you know that Gordon was adopted? Is there any chance that he could be the illegitimate child of Alice after Arthur had died or disappeared? What does his birth certificate say?
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Hi, my dad told me that he was adopted. I don't have a copy of his birth certificate only his death certificate, but I think I need to get a copy given all the facts you've helped to uncover!
Jon
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Have we found his birth? Does it give his date of birth on his death certificate. Even though your father said he was adopted, it wasn't a formal one as it was too early.
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Hi, yes death certificate gives his birth as 24 Feb 1905, but pre formal adoptions as you say. Interesting theory about Alice's son by someone else. Hadn't considered that.
Jon
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A "just possible" birth perhaps, from Hove and the Brighton hinterland
June 1905 Steyning 2b 237
Puddell, James Gordon Hilton
mother Mills
So far no further sign of him as Puddell or Puddle
Also,
Sep 1900, Kensington, Muriel Evelyn Puddell, mmn Mills
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Wow, thank you, that's an intriguing possibility and certainly worth pursuing. I wonder if there any contemporary relatives around, assuming this was the original birth!
Thanks again,
Jon
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Would a married woman would give up her second child, especially to someone who was a widow with children of her own? Thats the bit that seems odd to me, that Alice would take on a young child. I can't see any births registered around Chichester which is where they were in 1901 and 1911 - I wonder if he was Alice's illegitimate child and she didn't register him?
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Have you looked at the actual image of the 1911, it is rather strange! It looks to me as if bits have been written in a different hand and ink especially the name Cole and son.
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I agree that the Puddell birth is a bit of long shot, but it's not impossible (yet!) that he might be Gordon James Cole
June 1905 Steyning 2b 237
That's the first page of Steyning births that quarter (previous page 236 is end of Brighton), and so, irrespective of sub-district, may well include any born in late February and registered in the sixth week after birth (so many parents left it late!)
i.e. on the same page is
James William Walter Buckle - he died in August 1984, date of birth 23 February 1905
Free index to 1911 has an Edith Emily Puddell in Bexhill
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kh6/
Not sure what might be her marriage record, if there is one
John
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What about this for an idea based on the rather odd 1911?
Alice seems to have taken in at least one other young child as a boarder (a girl). Maybe she took in Gordon in the same way and didn't enter his surname as she didn't know it. Then he stayed with her as a foster mother and took her name?
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It's perfectly plausible, Groom.
Hope Alice hadn't turned into some kind of baby farmer!
I don't believe that Edith Emily Puddell was ever married. And may not have been born in Brighton. There's an Edith Puddle, 28, with her father in Fulham in 1901. Born Westbourne Pk
Possible birth registration
Dec 1872 Kensington 1a 80
Puddle, Edith Emily
mother's maiden surname Mills
Free index to 1939 shows her still in Bexhill. She died in Sep qtr 1944, registered Battle, as Edith Emily Puddle. Age 71.
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I can't find either Gordon James Puddell or Muriel Evelyn Puddell after their births either.
You may be on to something there, jonw65 - she registered the children in her name but gave her mother's maiden name as her maiden name. The only way to prove if Gordon James Cole and Gordon James Puddell are one and the same would be to get the birth certificate for Gordon Puddell and hope that his date of birth was 24th Feb 1905.