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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: summer days on Wednesday 02 August 17 09:50 BST (UK)
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Hi can anyone help me, as i'm new to Ancestry.
Where and what do I need to do to find and view FHL Film numbers?.
Someone that has passed away was looking for Mary Gearing, and wrote this on Ancestry message board that she'd found Mary.
Mary was sister to my G G Gran Jessie Gearing, and I to can't find a birth after a years of looking. I'm hoping if I can find Mary it might help my find sister Jessie. Jessie was born a few years after Mary's dad passed away (also a post reads John was not Mary's real dad) can anyone one help?
The lady posted the below.
Posted on message board. SHE'S BEEN FOUND!!!!!! After a lot of searching we've managed to find Mary Adelaide's baptism (though still no trace in the GRO index, so no birth cert). Almost everything I was told by mother an grandmother was wrong, but I think Mary Adelaide herself believed it to be true. Firstly her birth date was 26 Jun 1868 (not 26 july 1871 which was the date she herself used). her father was John Gearing (he died Jan 1870) he was a carpenter not a painter (but his father was a printer - I can see some miscopying here). also she was born in St Giles holborn, not Lambeth, her parents did live in Lambeth for a time and some of her siblings were born there. But she WAS a cigar maker (in fact that's how we found her - mum had remarried, she was in the 1891 census under stepdad's name). I've certainly made the most of my Ancestry with this search, which involved downloading page of the census, until I found a likely looking candidate, and then checking BMD records for feasibility. Then I had to go to London to look at church records. All this however has taken me right back to Mary Adelaide's grandparents, and way before civil registration, so it was effort well worth making.
Thank you
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Hi
Welcome to the forum. Is this the thread below? If so just post a reply and join in the discussion:-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=250507.0
Blue
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Welcome to Rootschat.
This is not Ancestry.
This is a free site where members assist others, for enjoyment and not for profit.
Jamjar
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You asked about FHL numbers, they refer to films made by the Church of Latter Day Saints (LDS). Transcriptions and deatils about the films can be found here
www.familysearch.org
The LDS are removing access to their films as they enter the digital age and are putting their reources online.
You may find this information elsewhere though.
As to the topic mentioned by Blue, that was started in 2007 by somerlea who hasn't been online here since 2011.
If you post on her topic and her email address has changed, she won't get a notification that you have posted but it's worth a try.
If you want to do more of your own research, the have a look at our London & Middlesex boards for more information and resources and post a request there if necessary.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/london-and-middlesex/
Dawn
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Link to discussion on Ancestry it might be better to reply on this discussion instead:-
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/boards/surnames.gearing/85/mb.ashx
Edit: It looks like you might be already on there as Russellfolk?
Blue
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Where are they on the 1881 census?
Jamjar
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The baptism registers for St Giles are at the London Metropolitan Archives according to this link if you want to look at Mary's baptism and see if Jessie's is there too. LMA link below too:-
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/london-metropolitan-archives/the-collections/Pages/st-giles-in-the-fields.aspx
https://search.lma.gov.uk/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/LMA_OPAC/web_detail/REFD+P82~2FGIS?SESSIONSEARCH
Blue
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Don't really know where to post this now but here goes anyway.
There's no marriage for John Gearing = Ann Witton.
There's no birth registered for Jessie/Jessica Gearing/Witton/Thackery.
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The children were supposedly born before 1874 (when the law regarding birth registration changed) so there may not be birth certs to find.
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I'll post here too :)
Is this Jessie?
Marriage January 1896 St Philip, Lambeth
Jessie Gearing and James Measures
Her father, Henry, Cabinet Maker
1901 525/173/34
They are living in Deptford with mother Annie Thackerey.
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1891 34712/18
James Thackeray 67 yrs
Ann Thackeray 50 yrs
Mary Thackeray 20 yrs
Jessica Thackeray 17 yrs
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Ann Gearing widow married James Thackerrey widower 24 July 1877 Holy Trinity, Lambeth. Her father, John Witton.
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The children were supposedly born before 1874 (when the law regarding birth registration changed) so there may not be birth certs to find.
The early births were registered from late 1850's-early 1860's. 4 or 5 I think.
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Was thinking this may be Ann and John Gearing on the 1861 census, as there is a granny Witton living with them:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2MG-WQXT
Jamjar
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Yes, it looks like them. He is a clerk though in that census.
There is a marriage 1856 John Thomas Gearing and Ann Ashley. The Banns have her as a widow.
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Births:
GEARING, WILLIAM WHINREY mmn WITTON
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in ST GILES & ST GEORGE Volume 01B Page 353
GEARING, FRANCES MARIA mmn WITTON
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 392
GEARING, ELIZABETH ANN mmn WITTON
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 250
GEARING, EMILY JANE mmn WITTON
GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 295
Death:
GEARING, ELIZABETH ANN 0
GRO Reference: GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 181
Jamjar
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An online tree has John as the son of William Whinrey and Frances Clarke; explains his children's names.
Also, says he married Anne in 1856 and that they had 9 children.
He is said to have died aged 39 in 1870.
Jamjar
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Yes, it looks like them. He is a clerk though in that census.
There is a marriage 1856 John Thomas Gearing and Ann Ashley. The Banns have her as a widow.
Yes, it is the correct marriage for Ann née Witton
J.
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1881 census might be really useful if we could find them - they are well hidden ::)
As John died in 1870, Jessie is not his and as Ann didn't marry until 1877, she is probably not Mr Thackeray's child either.
As the other two girls' registrations can't be found either, maybe Ann and John were not together then.
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Hi I started with a census showing My Gran as Jessie Gearing married to James Measures and it showed Mother-in-law as Ann Thackerrey.
I think Ann was Ann Witton? married Surname Charles Ashley, then John Thomas Gearing the James Thackerry. Anns Daughter if her name is Jessie has no birth. On her wedding dad reads Henry. The post I found on the message board put about Mary, sister to Jessie. Mary dad died as was Jessie John Thomas Gearing child.
is this what this site is for?, because I only joined today in the hope of someone helping me.
you're all commenting, where do I click to reply to your comment, you've found more then I have in a year :) told you i'm new :)
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Just click on the reply button at the bottom of the last post in this thread. If you are looking to view Mary's baptism, if it was at St Giles Holborn as stated in the Ancestry post, it can be viewed at LMA and Jessie's might be there too.
Blue
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There are indexed baptisms for St Giles Holborn on Family Search but I can't see a suitable baptism. I don't know if this is the same church :-\
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Emily Jane and Elizabeth Ann were baptised together in 1863 at Holy Trinity, Holborn.
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The lady on Ancestry who passed away said, "... she was born in St Giles Holborn..." so that's why I thought she must have found a baptism for Mary at that church which can be accessed at London Metropolitan Archives:-
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/london-metropolitan-archives/the-collections/Pages/st-giles-in-the-fields.aspx
https://search.lma.gov.uk/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/LMA_OPAC/web_detail/REFD+P82~2FGIS?SESSIONSEARCH
Blue
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Emily Jane's marriage
13 May 1883 St John the Evangelist, Walworth
Emily Jane Gearing 19 yrs father written as William Woodley :-\
Thomas Woodley 20 yrs father Andrew Woodley
Annie Gearing is a witness.
The address is East Street.
This will be 'Em' the sister of Mary. Thomas is a Bottler but his father is a Lighterman so that may be where the bargee comes from.
Elizabeth Ann married George Gunston Tyte in 1882, Paddington from her grandfather's address.
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...except the records for St Giles in the Fields have only 'recently' been deposited for safe-keeping at the LMA.
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"... Then I had to go to London to look at church records..."
Blue
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Hi Everyone, I've been clicking on all your names next to the small square to reply to you all. This one i've clicked the reply at the bottom of the page. Is this what i'm meant to do?. Sorry i'm rubbish :D
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You need to click on the blue reply button at the top and bottom of the topic, then the reply will be posted here and everyone can see what is being said.
If you send personal messages, only the person who gets the message can see what you are saying.
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Thank you, i've written on the post where someone put the link above where they posted about the lady looking for Mary in the hope someone will see it. I'm going to print all the info on Mary, and take it to the London Archives in the hope they can point me where the lady found the info on Mary.
So if I click on your name on the left is that private just so I know. I've started using the reply button below. I didn't want to be posting in the wrong place.
Thank you for your help x
Jenny
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if you look at this 1851 census I think this is Ann as a child (Jessie mum) not sure where the surname Hope came from. look at where Catherine came from?. Other trees marry William to Catherine Mackbright re Truelove, but the dates don't add up if she looked after Ann in London?.
Household Members
Name Age
Robert Purdy 22
Sarah Purdy 24
Robert Purdy 3
Catherine Hope 51
William Hope 17
Anne Hope 15
Then look at this, if this is the same family? I've got lost on this
1851
HO107/ pc 1737/ folio 191 /pg 54
Cow Fair, Stony Stratford West
Name Catherine Mackbright
Age 85
Relation Wife Mother
Occupation Pauper Formerly Lace Maker
Where born Newport Pagnell
Household Members
Samuel Ashton 56
Mary Ashton 57
Sarah Ashton 24
William O Ashton 18
Mary A Ashton 16
Catherine Mackbright 85 (other trees she doesn't have a daughter Catherine? and her age doesn't add up to william )
I must have the hardest tree ever. :D
Moderator comment: edited for content. Please do not copy and paste census transcriptions from online sites as they are subject to copyright. You must transcribe what you see in the images.
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I've just been looking at records for Jessie herself - in 1891 (with mother, sister and stepfather) she's shown as bc.1874 Lambeth, in 1901 (now married) bc.1875 Holborn and the following census shows bc.1876 Southwark - I note her death in Dec.qtr. 1939 shows bc.1875 and 39 register gives birthdate as 18/1/1875.
Lots of inconsistencies as you can see but wondered if you've ever followed up on this - a Mary Ann Gearing birth reg'd Mar.qtr.1874 Lambeth - mothers maiden name Witton. There is no death entry for this child so could this be your Jessie? Whilst I can't explain away why she'd be a Mary Ann when she had a older sister with Mary as a first name if, as 1891 census says (info given by her mother) that she was born ca.1874 Lambeth this birth registration would fit exactly - whilst she may have got her birthyear wrong in later life was the birthday of 18th January correct just in 1874 and not 1875? If you have not followed up on this already if I was you I certainly would. There is no marriage between another Gearing and Witton so would think this birth record must be a child of Ann Gearing and from the date the likely candidate is your Jessie albeit with a name you wouldn't expect.
Annette
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Jessie could be the daughter of Frances Maria. She would be 15 in 1874.
I can't find a death or marriage for Frances.
Jamjar
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Both Annette and Jamjar make good points.
I think the girls before Jessie are Mary Catherine and Mary Adelaide so Mary Ann seems feasible and perhaps it seemed best to change it :-\
That birth certificate would be following up definitely.
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Frances Maria isn't with her mother in 1871 and there is also a child, Ann T , aged 5 yrs who I don't think we have listed earlier :-\
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A tree on My Heritage for John Thomas Gearing and his family, father William Whinrey Gearing, to which I don't have access, says that there were 9 children " They had 9 children: Mary Adelaide DICKESON (born GEARING), Elizabeth Ann GEARING and 7 other children".
It also indicates that the marriage document is on their site.
Jamjar
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Marriage documents are available on another site for some of the family.
You have listed the four earlier children in reply #15, then there is Mary C (Catherine/Kate); Mary A (Adelaide?); Ann T and Jessie so that is 8 that we have seen.
I have just seen 3 trees for Catherine, Adelaide and Jessie but they only go from their marriages. No earlier censuses.
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This is the 1871 Census - 2 Smarts Buildings, St. Giles - ref.RG10 - 345 - 73 - 48
Ann Gearing Wid. 34 Mangler born Westminster, Middlesex
Emily Jane Gearing 8 born Lambeth, Surrey
Ann T. Gearing 5 born St. Giles
Mary A. Gearing 2 ditto
Maria C. Gearing 9mos ditto
I can account for 8 children (or 9 if Jessie is not the Mary Ann b.1874):
William Whinfrey birth regd June qtr.1858 St Giles
Frances Maria birth regd Sept.qtr.1859 St Giles
Elizabeth Ann birth reg'd Jun.qtr.1861 Lambeth (died 1861)
Emily Jane birth reg'd Mar.qtr.1863 Lambeth
Ann T. bc.1865/1866 (who seems to become Catherine/Kate)
Mary Adelaide bc.1868/1869
Maria C. born 1870
Mary Ann birth reg'd Mar.qtr.1874 Lambeth (who may have become Jessie)
?Jessie bc.1874-1876
Clearly some of children had one name as a child and grew up as something else.
Annette
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I didn't check but thought that Mary C was Catherine?
Added
I think you are right because Ann has a Mary with her after Kate's marriage ::)
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Burial for Maria Frances Gearing 11 months in 1862.
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Hi Everyone the plot thickens. I've got the most confused tree ever. My tree has a lot of people on it that today i've found another tree has.
On Jessie wedding the witnesses were Woodley and Miller. Woodley was married to Anns sister Emily. Emily and her husband both died in the war when a bomb hit the house.
I thought who was William Miller on the wedding certificate? At first I thought it was Jessie sister called Ann, because when mum Ann was a widow there is a daughter called Ann on the census, but when married the dad reads William, so its not Ann's sister that married a William Miller. I've hit on a tree called Robinson & Gibb family tree. This tree has a lots of linking names. I've messaged the person of the tree today, but they haven't come back to me yet. On there tree is a wedding
Elizabeth Annie Miller
1888–1972
BIRTH 10 JULY 1888 • St Saviour, Southwark, Surrey
DEATH MAR 1972 • Rotherhithe London
to
Alfred Phillip Elsey
1882–1948
BIRTH 21 DEC 1882 • Greenwich, London
DEATH DEC 1948 • Rotherhithe London
can anyone tell me what the wedding reads? I see Ann Thackerrey but its in Canada, and I've only got UK so I can't read it.
Look at this census I have for my G Gran Jessie with no birth, and below on this you'll see my Gran Jessie. Surely there must be a link?
1901
143, Silwood Street, St Paul Deptford, Greenwich
Name William J Miller (this is above mt G Gran)
Age 33
Relation to Head Head
Birth Place Southwark
RG13, Piece 525, Folio 173, Page number 34
Annie Miller 33
William Miller 11
Elizabeth Miller 13
Lillie McDonald 8
at the same address
my G Gran
Name Jessie Measures
Age 25
Relation to Head Wife
Birth Place Holborn
James Measures 28
Jessie Measures 4
Mabel Measures 4 Weeks
Annie Thackerey 64
Something links all this, but the persons tree doesn't have Jessie or Ann Thackerrey or any of Jessies Sisters on it.
can anyone solve this ?
Moderator comment: edited for content. Please do not copy and paste census transcriptions from online sites as they are subject to copyright. You must transcribe what you see in the images.
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Sorry I meant Jessie and James had 12 Children, not Ann the mum. xx
I'm reading all the above and on the persons tree he has a Kate, maybe that is Ann T. ?
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Hi Annette, I hope you see this.
I'm still looking for Jessie, and i've only just seen where you found a birth for a Mary Ann Gearing that maybe Jessie. Anything is worth a try. I can't see where you found this, so could you give me the info to find the right one, page number etc so I can order it.
Frances Elizabeth Gearing.
Born 2 Dec 1856 2 Smarts Building, south of st Giles. Baptism 21 Dec 1856 st Giles in the field Holborn.
William Whinrey Gearing.
Born 15 March 1858 2 smarts building. Baptish 4 April 1858 Holy Trinity Kingsway, Holborn.
Frances Maria Gearing.
Born 22 Aug 1859 2 Smarts building. baptism 11 Sept 1859 st giles in the field, Holborn.
Elizabeth Ann Gearing.
Born April 1861. St Giles Lambeth. Baptism 26 April 1863 Holy Trinty Kingsway, Holborn.
Emily Jane Gearing B 29 Jan 1863. Baptism 26 April 1863 Holy Trinty Kingsway, Holborn.
Catherine Maria Gearing aka Kate Born 8 Dec 1864. 2 Smarts building. Baprism 1 Jan 1865 st giles in the fiels, Holborn.
Ann Theresa Gearing Born 4 March 1866. 2 Smarts building. Baptism 22 July 1866 st giles in the field, Holborn.
Mary Ann Gearing Born 26 June 1868. 2 Smarts Building. Baptism 19 July 1868 st giles in the field Holborn.
Maria Charlotte Gearing Born 4 June 1870. 2 Smarts building. Baptism 26 June 1870 st giles in the field Holborn.
Maria was born in 1870, and John Thomas Gearing dies in 1870, so won't be Jessies Dad.
I'm still looking for Jessie, so could you send me where you see a birth of a Mary Ann reg qtr 1874 info i'll order it to see what comes. As you'll see i've still been looking and chipping away at it.
Thank you Jenny
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Hi Annette, you put with mary Ann Gearing a birth of 18 jan 1874 mothers name is Witton, this sounds hopefull. I only do ancesty and i've put this in. where did you see mothers name of Witton. I'll order this in hope.
Jenny
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Jenny
Since the last posting on this was 6 months ago I had to read through this thread again to refresh my memory.
I gave you the birth entry for a Mary Ann Gearing - reg'd March quarter 1874 Lambeth - ref. details are Volume 1d Page 409 (easily found from the birth index on Ancestry).
The General Register Office where you order certificates have now updated their own births index to show mothers maiden names on births before 1912 (plus the death index now shows ages before 1866) - it is free to register and check the indexes - you only pay when you want to purchase a certificate. You can now opt to have a PDF copy sent to you by email which costs £6 which you should receive within 5 working days (rather than paying the usual £9.25 for a certificate sent to you by post which normally takes around 7-10 days). This PDF service only applies to births and deaths.
https:/www./gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
When I checked the birth entry for Mary Ann Gearing Mar.qtr.1874 Lambeth on the GRO's own site I saw that the mothers maiden name was Witton (if a birth was to a single lady no mmn is shown indicating it was an illegitimate child). Whether mother Ann named her dead husband as the father of Mary Ann only viewing the certificate can tell. Again, if she is shown with no father i.e. illegitimate, the birth entry will show her mothers maiden name since Ann was now a widow named Gearing (the name the child registered with as that was Ann's legal name).
Hope all that makes sense.
Annette
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Anyone reading this chat, if you'd like to help, and have ancestry pm me your email address and i'll invite you onto my tree as a guest, where I can copy and paste the info I have, but I can't fit all the puzzle together.
Hi Annette, Thank you for coming back to me, I wish i'd seen this message 6 months ago, because I'm still looking for Jessie's birth and where she and her mum and dad came from.
I've ordered the birth certificate, and even if its not her it just means i'm still looking for her.
I do feel Jessie must be named as another name in error. Jessie when she married called her first born daughter Jessie (she died married at 21, but I can't find a wedding, thats another something to be found) as well, so it plays a part in the family. Both Jessie's are buried in the same Church.
When Jessie Gearing married James Measures her dad read Henry Gearing a cabinet maker. All her brother and sister's there dad was John Thomas Gearing. John had a married brother Henry, could he be her dad, I can't find much on Henry.
You wrote on the 1891 census ''info given by mother'' where did you see this please, because I can't see anything, and I'd like to add it to my tree please.
On the 1891 census sister Mary Mary Adelaide, she goes onto marry Thomas Dickeson. Ann Witton died in the workhouse, and spent most of her life working there as a washing lady. The address on her death is daughter Mary's as Dickeson.
On Ancestry someone that passed away was looking for Mary's birth, and couldn't find it, she put she'd found a baptism, but no birth, and wrote on Mary wedding dad she said her dad wasn't her real dad. On the baptism her dad reads John Gearing.
Jessie's mum Ann witton couldn't write and when getting married she sighed with a X so would be why she didn't witness her childrens weddings.
Ann Witton. the name purdy signs as witness on a lot of wedding, as if Ann dad William witton a Tailor has passed away.
Ann Witton married Charles Frances Ashley in Oct 1853.
Ann as Ashley married John Thomas Gearing in 24 Feb 1856 he died in 1870, so won't be Jessie's dad.
Ann as Gearing married James Thackerrey in 24 July 1877
Info James Thackerrey first wife married in 17 Aug 1847 was called Mary Ann Patterson she died in 1876.
Jessie was born abt 1874?
I found a Jessie Patterson B. 3 Dec 1873 -D Oct 1874 mother was called Mary Ann Patterson. Birth place Holborn st giles, and st George Camden. Child was illiginamet 3 weeks old and mum a servant. Could this be anything? did the child die, so the called her Mary Ann? known as Jessie?
Ann Witton I think had a brother and sisters, being.
Mary Ann Witton married in 10 Sept 1849 to John Thompsom. living at Church Street, dad william Witton a tailor, Purdy was a witness.
Sarah Witton married Robert Purdy. Living at Church Street, dad ''Charles'' William Witton is a tailor, Purdy Signed the certificate.
Charles William Witton looks like he married three times, but I can only find two.
one was to
Susan Norman in Apr 1860 living at Church street, dad william witton a Tailor. Purdy was a witness.
Mary Ann Fleming may 1870 living at Charles Street, dad William Witton, a tailor,
When Ann Witton first married Sister Sarah as Purdy and Robert Purdy signed as a witness.
On Ancestry people have William Witton as marrying a Catherine '' Kitty'' Truelove, from Newport Pagnell Bucks. This does add up on my tree with dates and census, because I this she looked after Ann and William in London after?.
I think there is a missing link where a James Mackbright married Kitty Truelove aka Catherine, they had two children called Ann but one was known as Catherine? all this still doesn't tell me where Ann and her dad came from.
Thank you Annette for your help.
Jenny
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should read William wittons Wedding to Catherine Mackbright Doesn't Add up, not does.
Jenny
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I think seeing the post above Frances Maria Gearing died in 2 july 1861, but her name got put as Maria Frances in error? St Matthew, Brixton, Lambeth.
I've ordered the Mary Ann Certificate, so i'll let you know when I get it, and what it reads.
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Thank you all so much, I ordered the certificate and its Jessie.
Thank you everyone, and Thank you so much Annette. xxxxx
Regards Jenny xxxxx :D :D :D :D :D :D
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HI, my ancestors.
Henry Charles Gearing, cabinet maker in 1896. There was a Jessie in the family.
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Hi Thank you Brassmill
My tree has been so hard in finding Jessie's family, can you tell me anything of Charles Henry Gearing or Jessie or any of the other family members.
My Tree is on Ancestry
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HI, I am not currently subscribed to Ancestry but Jessie Gearing 1867-1905 was probably daughter of Ann Frances Murphy dob 1837. Henry Charles Gearing Dob 1836 St Giles. Confusing because wife given as Frances Ann Clarke Dob 1802 - probably just v popular names. Look him up in 1851 census He is listed wrongly as Henry Cllr Gearing. His father was William Whinrey Gearing. That was the name given to WWG's son.