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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: themonkeymonkey on Tuesday 08 August 17 14:32 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am a newbie and wondered if anyone else was researching or had any information on elizabeth Wilson (nee Spence), she was born 1820 in Keith, Scotland to William Spence and Helen Jenkins. She married Alexander Wilson on 11 June 1843. They had 3 children John born 1843, Mary 1846 and James 1849. Any information on any of the family would be very much appreciated, thanks.
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Can you tell us what you have already as it saves on duplication.
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Elizabeth Spence born 14th April 1820 in Keith to William Spence and Helen Jenkins (cannot find marriage certificate), married Alexander Wilson (no information on him)on 11 June 1843 at Boyndie, Banffshire. Birth of son John Wilson 10th sept 1843 in Banff (no other information), birth of daughter Mary Wilson 1846 in Banff (no other information). Birth of son James Wilson 1849 in Banff died 20 Sept 1929 in Peterhead, married to Margaret Smith (1859-1905) on 1st December 1883.
Hope this helps, thanks.
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This would be better on the Aberdeenshire board - perhaps get a moderator to move it for you.
7 1/2 Kirk St Peterhead Aberdeenshire - 1901
James Wilson 47 Occupation Cooper. July 1848 - September 1929 Peterhead.
Margeret Wilson 42 - 1859 - passed away 1905
William Farguhar Wilson 7 - 1884 - 1920
Maggie Hellen Wilson 11 - 1889 - 1978
Gertitude Smith Wilson 4 - 1897 - 1985
Douglas Smith Wilson 2 - 1898 - 1978
Information as per ancestry tree.
Sandra
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Possible - 2/1 Wallace St Peterhead Aberdeen 1871
Elisa Wilson 48 Farm servants wife.
James Wilson 21 Cooper.
Sandra
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39 Boyndie Street Banffshire 1851
Elizabeth Wilson 33 Ag Labourers wife.
John Wilson 10
Mary Wilson 5
James Wilson 1
Sandra
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Thank you so much Sandra, that was quick work :)
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Wonder if this is Alexander Wilson in 1841 Boyndie Bannffshire - under address it says Ordens Servants.
Alexander Wilson 28 Farm Servant.
James Goodburn 23
James Sammon 15
John Grand 14
John Chisolm 10
Sandra
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Thank you I cant even find a birth or death date for Alexander but I will keep looking, thanks.
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Since the first born son was John - could that indicate the name of Alexander's father ???
Sandra
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I will check that out thanks
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If it says on the marriage record: Alexander Wilson, Boyndie. Does that mean he was born there? Thanks.
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There are useful transcriptions of the marriage of Alexander and Elizabeth and the baptisms of their children on Freereg.
I note that on the marriage record Elizabeth is said to be of Banff Parish and that in the census records her place of birth is given as Banff, Banffshire. The birth you have for her is in Keith parish- I, therefore, would ask the question: Have you found her death on Scotland's People to confirm or otherwise the names of her parents?
William
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Further to the above using the free search on SP I note that there is a death for an Elizabeth Wilson and Elizabeth Spence in Peterhead in 1886 - age 67.
William
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I have not as yet found a death notice for her, thanks.
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Thank you, her son James lived in Peterhead, I will research that avenue, thanks.
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There is this 1861 census in Peterhead, Wallace Street
Eliza Wilson Married 37 b Banff Ag Lab's wife
John Wilson 17 Printers ap b Banff
James Wilson 10 Scholar b Banff
Isobella Wilson 7 b Banff daughter
Eliza and James are also in Wallace Street in the 1871 and 1881 census. In both she is said to be married. This may be another reason for downloading her death cert from SP as it should indicate whether her husband was alive at the time of her death.
William
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Alexander was alive at time of her death I have just looked at death notice on SP but it gives her mums name as Isabella Hendry not Helen Jenkins as I have, I will see if I have gone wrong somewhere. Thank you all for your help its much appreciated.
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Events before the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855 can be hard to find. Only about a third of events were registered in the Old Parish Registers, for all sorts of reasons.
Sandra's 1851 census entry showed wife Elizabeth as married. Wonder if this could be Alexander in 1851 working Upper Inverichney, a farm in Alvah Banff:
Alexander WILSON, servant, married, 32, Agr. Lab. Born in Deskford, Banff.
Monica
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Thank you I will see if I can find any more inormation :).
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The daughter Isabella who shows in 1861, from William's entry. I think this is her birth/baptism entry:
Isabel WILSON - parents ALEXANDER WILSON/ISABEL SPENCE
13/12/1852 - Ref. 147/110 72 in Banff
Monica
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There is a possible death for Mary Wilson, mother's maiden name Spence. She shows as aged 23 in 1868. The death is in Peterhead. If the correct entry, it might include some new detail on her father Alexander?
Monica
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It says on her death certificate that Alexander was dead by 1868. Another avenue for me thank you.
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Keep in mind that the immediate family may have lost contact with him over the years. Looks like Alexander and Elizabeth may not have lived together from quite early on maybe. Certainly together with the birth of daughter Isabella in 1852. With Elizabeth Spence showing as married up to 1871, hard to say isn't it :-\
Monica
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Yes it is, ancestry is a minefield and I keep going down wrong tracks but hopefully I will get there, thank you so much for all your help,
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If it says on the marriage record: Alexander Wilson, Boyndie. Does that mean he was born there? Thanks.
No. It means that he was residing in the parish of Boyndie at the time of his marriage.
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39 Boyndie Street Banffshire 1851
Elizabeth Wilson 33 Ag Labourers wife.
John Wilson 10
Mary Wilson 5
James Wilson 1
The FreeCEN transcription of this census says that all of them were born in the parish of Banff, County of Banff.
From the birth/baptism dates you listed I would expect John to be aged 7, Mary 4 and James 1.
However what worries me more is that you say Elizabeth was born in the parish of Keith, but the census says she was born in the parish of Banff.
I presume that you have James' 1929 death certificate, and that it says James' parents were Alexander Wilson and Elizabeth Spence. If this is not the case, what is your source for Alexander's parentage?
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Yes on James's death certificate it says parents are Alexander Wilson and Elizabeth Spence. Keith was in Banffshire until 1975 it is now classed as in Morayshire. Finding the birth and death of Alexander is proving tricky so far. Thanks for your help.
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I've come across another anomaly in Elizabeth Spence death certificate, it gives the witness as being Richard Noble (its definitely Richard and what I can make out to be Noble) and he is classed as either her son or son in law, as she only had 1 daughter Mary Wilson who died aged 23 in 1868 and as far as i can make out was unmarried with no children.
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can i post a copy of the death certificate to see if anyone else can make out the name? Thanks
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I agree this looks like Alexander Wilson in 1851:
Upper Inverichney, Alvah (per FreeCEN):-
WILSON Alexander Servnt Married Male 32 Ag. Lab Banffshire - Deskford
I couldn't find a suitable baptism. So (knowing Deskford!) might he have been illegitimate, and recorded under his mother's name, and this is why you cannot find his parentage?
How about this:
"7 JUNE 1818 ANN WRIGHT had a Child baptised this day by the Revd William Thompson Preshome and named ALEXANDER. Witnesses George McCurach & Ann Hepburn." - Deskford OPR.
Could this be a baptism carried out by Catholic priest in the Deskford Established church? The one time I've come across 'Spence' locally it was in a Catholic context too. There is a timely George McCurach (married to Margaret Kemp) clearly a Catholic family living around Bogshalloch and Clochan in the Enzie, also with Catholic connotations; and I can discern at least one timely Ann Hepburn, in Dufftown in 1841 and a meal seller in Buckie in 1851.
As for Ann Wright, one candidate is Anne Wright b 1788 Carrothead, Deskford to George Wright & Anne Andrew - they were CoS with an MI in Deskford churchyard. I have her in my tree but know nothing of her after her baptism.
All this is speculative. Who did you say Elizabeth Spence's parents were, from her death certificate? Finding out about them might help.
In 1841, assuming he's using the surname Wilson, and keeping it local, despite the 'wrong' age:
Squardoch, Deskford, with others same recorded age:
WILSON Alxr M 15 Shoemaker Appren born Banffshire
but there's also, recalling him being in Alvah in 1851
Newton Of Montblairy, Alvah, with others same recorded age:
WILSON Alexander M 15 Ag Labourer born Banffshire
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Thanks for all the avenues to chase up :). Elizabeths parents were suppsedly William Spence (1771-1855) and Helen Jenkins (1771 - 1861) but on Elizabeths death certificate is gives her mum as Isabella Hendry which has me confused. Thanks.
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Hello again
Have to ask what your evidence is that Elizabeth's parents were supposedly William Spence and HelenJenkins. My reason for doing so is that both Forfarian and I have pointed out that census evidence gives her place of birth as Banff in the county of Banff and not Keith.
Re the death certificate you have downloaded for Elizabeth Wilson does it give her father's name? You could download a snip from it so that we could try to identify the informant's name. It is worth pointing out that census and OPR evidence provided by Monica L would suggest that Alexander and Elizabeth Wilson had a second daughter called Isabella. Might it be worth searching for a marriage between her and Richard Noble?
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I have attached what proof I have, Keith was in Banffshire until 1975 then became part of Morayshire.
I will search for a Isabella thank you.
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Here is the death notice, thanks.
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Death notice
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The abbreviation for Richard Noble is Govn. He looks to have been the Governor of the Peterhead Poorhouse on the 1891 census. This is where Elizabeth died from her death cert. He was the informant to her death.
Monica
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Thank you i even tried with magnifying glass and couldn't read it right!
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Just wanted to add a further census entry for the Alexander Wilson born in Deskford c. 1820s that we have been discussing earlier. One addditional entry from 1871:
Living with the Hay family at 15 Duff St, Inverness is an Alexander Wilson, 51, labourer born in Deskford.
Wonder if he showed as married? I lose him after this year...
Monica
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Thanks for posting the death cert. for Elizabeth Wilson. I note that her father's occupation is given as shipmaster which would certainly accord with a birth in Banff.
Clearly Richard Noble must have been given the information re her parentage - it is sometimes the case that deaths in institutions have the parents left blank as the informant simply did not have the information. I, therefore, wonder if Poor Law records still exist for Peterhead eg admission records ( This is not a topic I know a great deal about - perhaps Forfarian or Monica might have some ideas on this).
As Monica said earlier a lot of the Scottish OPRs have not survived. For what it is worth my opinion is that the Keith birth for Elizabeth is unlikely to be the correct one.
William
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Thank you Millmoor, I will ask Family History Society of Buchan if they know of any admission records still in existence, thanks.
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Some guidance here www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/education_learning/local_history/archives/loc_poorreliefrecords.asp
....Similarly, no records are held for any of the city poor houses, though some records for Peterhead Poor House are held....
Monica
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themonkeymonkey, first check out www.workhouses.org.uk/Peterhead
That'll confirm the boss of the poorhouse, and you'll see there that Aberdeen City Archives have the admission records (for which you can purchase copies):
PD2/PH/2/1
Register of Inmates, 3May1861 - 5Jun1900, with admission date, name, designation (cook, spinster, imbecile), religion, parish chargeable, reason for removal (adopted, died) and date.
PD2/PH/3
Admissions Register (14May1875 - 11Dec1929),
Register of Inmates (3May1861 - 25May1964),
Elizabeth Spence was presumably sent there by her son.
Now, here's some more good news!
I found Alexander Wilson in 1881. Note he declares himself a Widower.
Dwelling: 3 Rose Street North Side
Census Place: Inverness, Inverness, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203421 GRO Ref Volume 098 EnumDist 7 Page 44
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
James MACBAIN M 73 M Ashton, Inverness, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Labourer In Iron Works
Ellen MACBAIN M 68 F Beauly, Inverness, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Occ: Wife
Sarah MACBAIN U 36 F Dochgarroch, Inverness, Scotland
Rel: Daughter
Occ: Domestic Servant Cook
Elizabeth MACBAIN 16 F Fort Augustus, Inverness, Scotland
Rel: Grand Daur
Occ: Scholar
Jane PATERSON 60 F Redcastle, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland
Rel: Sister In Law
Occ: Fishmonger
Alexander WILSON W 65 F Dyseort, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Boarder
Occ: General Labourer
And this is his death - proven with certainty:
WILSON ALEXANDER 62 1888 098/ 303 Inverness
Sadly he was knocked down by a cab. I'd like to know what time because I suspect he was staggering home from the pub across the suspension bridge and 'deviated' into the road.
Seems to me Alexander Wilson abandoned his family for some reason, yet they didn't lose touch because his son John back in Peterhead was the informant.
His parents are James Wilson master tailor & Margaret Robertson, so forget about my idea about his mother being Ann Wright. We find this couple in 1851 in Berryhillock, Deskford with a daughter Helen.
This is the daughter
Name Helen Wilson
Gender Female
Christening Date 08 Aug 1812
Christening Place DESKFORD,BANFF,SCOTLAND
Birth Date 05 Aug 1812
Father's Name James Wilson
Mother's Name Margt. Robson
and then we find your Alexander Wilson:
Name Alexander Wilson
Gender Male
Christening Date 01 Jul 1815
Christening Place DESKFORD,BANFF,SCOTLAND
Birth Date 27 Jun 1815
Father's Name James Wilson
Mother's Name Margt. Robson
He would be 25 in 1841 which probably does mean he was at Ordens in 1841, aged 28.
I've got a (poor) image of his baptism - better off you getting a good'un from SP to see where he was born.
There's a brother John too.
FreeCEN gives us 1841 and 1851 (not there in 1861)
Piece: SCT1841/151 Place: Deskford -Banffshire Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Deskford Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 1 Page: 2
Address: Berryhilock
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
WILSON James M 45 Tailor Banffshire
WILSON Margret F 45 Banffshire
WILSON John M 20 Slater Appren Banffshire
Piece: SCT1851/151 Place: Deskford -Banffshire Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Deskford Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Deskford
Folio: 121 Page: 17 Schedule: 81
Address: 9 Berryhillock
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
WILSON James Head M M 61 Tailor Master Banffshire - Ordiquill
WILSON Margaret Wife M F 61 Tailors Wife Banffshire - Keith
WILSON Helen Dau U F 38 Tailor's Dau Banffshire - Deskford
I think he died thus
WILSON JAMES 69 1859 151/ 5 Deskford
so you should get his parents.
Probably:
Name James Wilson
Gender Male
Christening Date 01 Feb 1791
Christening Place ORDIQUHILL,BANFF,SCOTLAND
Father's Name Alexander Wilson
Mother's Name Helen Frazer
which takes him away from 'my' Wilsons in Deskford into what appears to be a separate Wilson line there, although they might join up around 1700.
I think that's comprehensively broken through on that side! Happy hunting.
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Oh my goodness how on earth did you manage to uncover it all, thank you so much :). You have saved me a lot of time :), now hopefully I can progress with Alexanders side of the family. Once again thank you :).
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Fordyce you are a miracle worker it is definitely him, widower of Eliz. Spence, he died of a fractured skull. I don't know how you did it but thanks.
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I have attached what proof I have, Keith was in Banffshire until 1975 then became part of Morayshire.
No, that isn't 'proof'. It isn't even an original document. It is an extract from an index compiled by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. To find 'proof' you need to find some other evidence to link your Elizabeth Spence with this one.
Many people's records are missing from the surviving records. Just because you have found one who might fit, apart from the fact that she was born in the parish of Keith in the county of Banff (aka Banffshire), does not mean that she is the right one, especially as you have evidence from an original document (you have checked the original, haven't you?) that your Elizabeth was born in the parish of Banff in the county of Banff (aka Banffshire).
The towns/burghs and parishes of Banff and Keith are both in the historic county of Banff aka Banffshire. For purposes of local government, Keith has been in Moray (NB not 'Morayshire') since 1975. Banff was in 'Banff and Buchan' from 1975 until 1995, and it is now in 'Aberdeenshire', the boundaries of which (unfortunately, because it creates confusion) do not match the boundaries of the historic county of Aberdeen aka Aberdeenshire.
For purposes of family history research, the post-1975 local authority areas are unhelpful, except as a possible guide to where archives may be held. My advice would be to ignore the post-1975 local government units and stick to the historic counties, because all historical material was collected on the basis of the historical counties and parishes.
PS just in case anyone is tempted to dissent, I actually live in Moray (in the bit of Moray that is part of Morayshire) and was at one time employed by Moray Council.
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Aha! I see that you have Elizabeth's death certificate and it says that her father was William Spence, shipmaster, and her mother was Isabella Hendry.
I think you need to forget altogether about the Elizabeth Spence born in Keith (there are not a lot of shipmasters in Keith, which is well inland and has no stretches of water much bigger than a millpond!) and accept that the records of your Elizabeth's birth and baptism have not survived.
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Thank you Forfarian, I apologize for my ignorance, in future I will double check my information and look for real proof before posting, sorry.
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Thank you Forfarian, I apologize for my ignorance, in future I will double check my information and look for real proof before posting, sorry.
No need to apologise, it's a classic one that almost everyone does when starting out, including me - 30-odd years ago I put quite a bit of effort into climbing a wrong tree until I found a death certificate that told me that my great-great-great-grandmother wasn't the one whose baptism was in the right parish in the right year, but another person altogether, same name, same parish, same year, of whose birth and baptism there is no record.
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It has been very very confusing for me and without the people on this board that have helped me enormously I would have been looking for months (years) to come. I would like to say thank you to all of you for your help its very much appreciated.
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I'm sure I speak for everyone if I say you are welcome.
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Fordyce you are a miracle worker it is definitely him, widower of Eliz. Spence, he died of a fractured skull. I don't know how you did it but thanks.
Just happy to help.
Re William Spence, some years ago when trying to identify George Hutton, shipmaster, who had a child named Isabella Hutton by my gtgdmother Janet Cruickshank in 1828 in Banff (but no record of her birth - sound familiar?), I asked the help of shipping expert Ian G Whittaker, who still has a website www.offscotland.plus.com/book/book.html with contact details. He gave me a list of ships mastered by a Hutton - he couldn't give more detail than that and I couldn't work out if any were George. I gave up. You might have better luck.
When looking for Isabella Hendry, bear in mind she might be recorded as Henry. There seems to be a fair cluster of Hen(d)rys in Alvah and Banff. One William Hen(d)ry, farmer Muiryhill Alvah, records himself as belonging to the Congregational church, so his and his family's details are not in the OPR - it was mighty difficult to fathom how come my Janet Cruickshank (yes - 'er again) had Hendry gdchildren.
Just to (over)complicate matters, sometimes the names Elizabeth and Isabella are interchangeable. I suggest you're looking for an illegitimate child where the mother is local (in/near Banff) and the father isn't. The Kirk Session might have something to say; it was silent on my Isabella Hutton.
However one last thing popped up. When away from home, with one in every port, little bundles can get left behind, as I reckon with my Isabella Hutton. Is he the culprit:-
1841: Church St, Port Glasgow, Renfrewshire (FreeCEN)
William Spence 50 Scotland Ship Master
William Spence 25 Renfrewshire Cl
Robert Spence 20
Eliz Campbell 25
IGI:
Name: William Spence
Marriage Date: 29 Oct 1814
Marriage Place: Port Glasgow,Renfrew,Scotland
Spouse: Janet Park
Name William Spence
Christening Place , PORT GLASGOW, RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 15 Sep 1815
Birthplace , Port Glasgow, Renfrew, Scotland
Father's Name William Spence
Mother's Name Janet Park
Name John Spence
Christening Date 30 Oct 1818
Christening Place , PORT GLASGOW, RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 14 Oct 1818
Father's Name William Spence
Mother's Name Janet Park
Name Robert Spence
Christening Place , PORT GLASGOW, RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 06 May 1821
Birthplace , Port Glasgow, Renfrew, Scotland
Father's Name William Spence
Mother's Name Janet Park
Name James Spence
Christening Place , PORT GLASGOW, RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 24 May 1825
Birthplace , Port Glasgow, Renfrew, Scotland
Father's Name William Spence
Mother's Name Janet Park
Over to you now! Have fun.
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Thank you :). They make it look so easy in adverts...find your ancestors ....but its a lot of work, but I am enjoying it. Thanks for your help :).
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Thank you :). They make it look so easy in adverts...find your ancestors ....but its a lot of work, but I am enjoying it. Thanks for your help :).
Aye, and they claim in the adverts to have everything you need to research, but they don't.
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Where would I find kirk sessions? Are they online or do I have to send off for them? Thanks.
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The kirk session records - minute books, books of discipline, account books etc - are held by the National Records of Scotland. They have been digitised, but for the moment they can only be viewed in General Register House in Edinburgh or in a few local archives around Scotland.
There is a plan to make them available on Scotland's People, but I do not know when that is likely to be.
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Thanks Forfarian, looks like I will have to wait until they are on scotlandspeople.