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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Robynkc on Friday 11 August 17 03:33 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to trace the Ancestors of Marko Aprilovic. His Serbia Birth Certificate states born in Split, Croatia in 1881. He died in Sydney,NSW in 1949 no parents listed. His parents on Birth Cert are Baron Ivan(John) Aprilovic and Baroness Jelacich. Apparently parents died/killed two weeks after his Birth and the Government was left to take care of him. Marko Aprilovic before he died claimed he was the grandson of King Peter 1 of Serbia??? Cannot find the name Äprilovic/Aprilovich outside of Australia. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers Robyn
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Hi Robyn
Here are a couple of articles about his royalty
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article128883913 and http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article226025438
(much the same).
Ros
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And here is his naturalization papers
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=27544
Ros
addimng : He says he is a naturalised citizen of New Zealand - perhaps those naturalization papers will have more info ...?
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Thanks Roz, I'm sorry I forgot to mention I have all the Trove stuff in Australia and knew about the NZ Naturalization. Thank you for the link to his NZ Naturalization Papers. Robyn
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OK Robyn - you want info from before Australia :)
Just adding that I could photograph his divorce papers https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1160602 and https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1152336 and probate packet https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1340325 next time I am at the archives if these were of interest. Yes they are unlikely to help with his origins but may have a marriage cert and a death cert.
Ros
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Marko Aprilovic's grandson is looking to find Ancestors. Marko married my Great-aunt Catherine Condran/Doyle's daughter Nora Doyle. I think his grandson has a Marriage Certificate and I'll ask him about the Death Certificate. Pretty sure he would have that.
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King Peter was b 1844 as Karadordevic surname in Belgrade - so presumably one of his daughters was the mother of Marko - have you ever found a marriage of Karadordevic to Aprilovic ?
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2 possibles as Markos mother
Princess Helen
Princess Milena
so - Do you have any names of Markos children ?
did Marko have children in Lidcombe , New South Wales ? or Sutherland or Tuncurry ?
is this yours on geneanet?
http://en.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/?size=10&sourcename=&nom=aprilovic&ignore_each_patronyme=&prenom=&prenom_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom=&place__0__=&zonegeo__0__=&country__0__=®ion__0__=&subregion__0__=&place__1__=&zonegeo__1__=&country__1__=®ion__1__=&subregion__1__=&place__2__=&zonegeo__2__=&country__2__=®ion__2__=&subregion__2__=&place__3__=&zonegeo__3__=&country__3__=®ion__3__=&subregion__3__=&place__4__=&zonegeo__4__=&country__4__=®ion__4__=&subregion__4__=&from=&to=&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&go=1
well it wasn't Helen - she married Prince John Constantinovich of Russia
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Marko had 8 children, in Lidcombe, NSW . His wife was Nora Kathleen/Kathleen Nora Doyle. I cannot find any Aprilovics outside of Australia/NZ.
There are Jelacichs around but with all different spellings. I was thinking maybe Marco's parents were heir to the throne and were killed, and gave the child a new surname.
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Have attached his Birth Certificate
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I have to go to work now so no more contact till tomorrow. Thank you for your help so far.
Robyn
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were you aware that Fred Aprilovic found Capt Cooks Anchor whilst diving in Cairns bay in 1979 ?
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Why is a Serbian birth certificate written in English?
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It seems unlikely he is the grandson of Peter I; Peter I didn't marry until 1883, after Marko was born. I also can't find a Russian warship Odessa, although there were merchant ships by that name around. Often these stories gain a few additional decorative details as they travel through the family, and if he was orphaned at a young age he might not have been given a full and accurate picture by whoever raised him, so you should question every detail and look to find additional proof.
The "birth certificate" might more accurately be described as a translation of an extract of baptism. It does not say he was born in Split, but in Solin, within presumably the diocese of Split. St Stephen is a church there, but it is not a cathedral. I would prioritise getting an original, untranslated copy of this parish register, to see what information there is in it. There may be some errors in the translated copy, and information may be left out.
I also suggest getting a copy of his marriage certificate, which ought to have details of parents as he gave them at the time - hopefully a first name for his mother! She might turn out to be easier to trace, as I think her name is Jelačić and there was a noble family by that name.
Interestingly, in some early NZ/Australian shipping records he seems to be listed as older than a 1880/1 birth would suggest:
May 1903, "M Aprilovich", aged 28
http://marinersandships.com.au/1903/05/087bal.htm
also December 1903, "Marks Aprilovies" ( think the original is "Aprilovic" or "Aprilovice"), aged 29
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6R49-KMQ?i=2&cc=1609792
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Original Baptism Certificate
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Did not know About Fred Aprilovic's find, but knew they all excellent surfers..Haven't had time to do much family research, am engulfed in finding any Aprilovics in other parts of the World but there is none.
I realise that Family members can pass exagerated information down the generations. Marko still has one son alive aged 93yrs who I wish to visit very soon, on the other side of Australia. Hopefully will get a copy of the Marriage Certificate
Marko was a seaman so The Odessa would be more likely a merchant ship. Marco was 67yrs when he died in 1948, so I'd like to think he was born in 1881.
Thank you everyone for your help so far.. Robyn
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I believe you mean Frank Aprilovic, well at least he preferred that name. He was my now deceased great uncle.
I have also heard stories of being related to royalty in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, however to a Baroness from the Kingdom of Dalmatia. I don't have this information at hand but my grand mother does.
Really appreciate all this fascinating information people have shared. Thank You.
P.s maybe I'm related to you Robyn?
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Hi Matthew, yes we are related. Your great-great grandmother Catherine (Condran) Doyle and my great grandfather Joseph Condran were sister and brother. Not sure on Frank and Frederick Aprilovic. I have info on Fred but not Frank. I have rung Peter Aprilovic aged 94yrs and his son Mark on several occasions and plan to visit them in NSW. I live in Western Australia.
Cheers Robyn Condran
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Hi Robyn,
That's very interesting.
Have they been able to confirm any further details relating to Marko's past for you? I'd be interested to hear anything further that you are happy to share.
Also, do you find it odd that the birth certificate/baptism paper states different family names for Marko's mother and father and no first name for his mother?
Cheers,
Matthew
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Hi Matthew i've hunted everywhere for Marco's parents. Been on several Facebook groups including a Serbian group, but no good. Makes me think some sort of conspiracy in the town, were the parents disposed of?? Think Marco passed some info to his son Peter Aprilovic in NSW before he died.
Robyn.
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I did have a similar thought to you however I thought about it some more and I think I have a very logical answer.
Firstly, isn't it strange that there is no record of any Aprilovic in Croatia/Serbia, how could this be? I think the most logical answer is that Marko was an orphan/illegitimate child, so the St Stephens monastery where I'm guessing he was raised had to make up the details for their church books (record system).
Marko was born in April and all Croatian/Serbian surnames usually end with 'ic' so this could explain the beginning of a new surname in historical records - APRILovic. It also ties in with his father being given the most common name Ivan which is the same as John in english. Finally his mother has no name and her maiden name also happens to be one of the most recognisable surnames during the 1800's in Croatia, Jelacic. Either it was chosen because it was a rcognisable name of that time, or it could also be the single piece of information that is true if he was had out of wedlock and his mother was forced to give him up or disguise the name of his father.
There's a really good website that explains a little more about orphans/illegitimate children and how they were recorded during this time here - http://www.croatia-in-english.com/gen/social.html#illeg (http://www.croatia-in-english.com/gen/social.html#illeg)
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There are some interesting features of this puzzle, but I expect the answer will be that it's impossible to reach any definite conclusions.
I guess it's possible that at some stage the surname "Aprilović" was simply invented. I also noticed that it isn't a name that seems to exist back home, for example a google search for that name only returns a few people in America or Australia. But another explanation for this is that, as is very common, the name was mis-spelled as the family left the Balkan region and if we could deduce the correct native spelling some progress might be made.
As for the mother, who is named as "Baroness Jelačić", that would be (and still is today) a usual way of naming a noblewoman. The community would know who was meant by that name and it might even seem disrespectful to refer to her as Jelena or Anna or whatever her name was. There is a lot online about that family, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelačić family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelačić family) though without a first name or other information it's impossible to pinpoint a specific individual as being the woman in question.
Whether the alleged baptismal certificate dated 26 years after the event is telling the truth (or whether it is even genuine, looks a bit fishy to me), could also benefit from research.
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Just adding that I could photograph his divorce papers https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1160602 and https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1152336 and probate packet https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1340325 next time I am at the archives if these were of interest. Yes they are unlikely to help with his origins but may have a marriage cert and a death cert.
Just let me know if you want me to photograph any of these - it will probably be after New Year now.
Ros
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Hi Ros, yes that would be fantastic if you could do that.
Cheers Robyn
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Matthew Watson I have sent you a message to ur inbox
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I have been fascinated by this thread. The idea of a link to Eastern European nobility would have anyone asking questions, I suspect. Are you aware that the only reason that you are ever asked to prove you are a baptised Catholic is when you are about to marry in a Catholic church ? It was never normal for any Catholic church to produce a baptism certificate at the time a child was baptised, if it was still the ninteenth century. If you continued to live in the same area as an adult, when you wanted to marry, the priest could just look up your baptism in the church register. If you had moved away, the priest would write to the parish where you said you were baptised to check. This is why Catholic baptisms sometimes have the marriage noted in the margin.
It seems to me that the 1907 paperwork has probably all been produced in just this situation. It explains the reason that it is so many years after the event. It also suggests that Marko was planning to marry in an English-speaking country in 1907-8, so had to get the paperwork translated. The same documents could have been used years later for the marriage to a different woman, ie Norah Doyle.
Edited to add 15 mins later:
It would be interesting to find out when civil registration of births began in Croatia. When no civil birth registration existed, it was nomal, for example in Ireland, to accept a baptism certificate as a substitute. Could the 1907 documents relate to a naturalization for example ? What was the date of the New Zealand naturalisation referred to earlier ? Just some suggestions. I would still agree with jorose that a new translation of the Serbian document is needed.
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When I google translated the document the only interesting difference was the reference to a church rather than monastery of St Stephen.
I've been trying to locate this place in Solin Croatia by searching for monasteries/churches however I was only able to find one that burnt down in 1875 and never rebuilt.
If anyone can decipher the signature on the baptism document it would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi Robyn and Matthew,
I finally photographed the probate and divorce records - sorry it took so long. The probate was one of the better ones and contained about 10 certificates - births, marriage as well as death.
I will send you links to these files in a few minutes ...
Ros