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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: ValJJJ on Friday 11 August 17 09:25 BST (UK)
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Hi all
I wonder if you can help please to date this photo from the clothing and poses?
A relative found this photo behind another picture hanging in the Bakers Arms pub in Harkstead, Suffolk, England.
We guess that it is a family group connected with the Kirk family in Chesterfield, since the publican's first husband, who died when 24 of TB, was Samuel Kirk, who was admitted to Greenwich Union Infirmary in April 1914 and died there on 1st May 1914.
At marriage in Chesterfield, on 26 Dec 1911, the father is shown as Richard Kirk deceased; occupation: Fettler, and Samuel Kirk, 22, a hairdresser, therefore born abt 1890.
Samuel’s parents – Richard and Annie Kirk nee Salt. Married 1886 in Brampton, Chesterfield.
Father's Names: Alfred Kirk and James Salt
Suppose the photo could be of or include the Salt family but no idea really.
The uniform of the young man could help date the picture? Does the uniform indicate anything to anyone eg which regiment/role? I have found a census record in Jesmond St Andrew, Northumberland for Arthur Kirk in 1911, age 18, so born abt 1893, born in Derbyshire, single, a soldier in 3rd Battalian Northumberland Fusiliers. I wonder if this is him as one of Samuel's siblings was an Arthur and is of about the right age.
I've also attached another photo, which was found behind another picture in the pub, which we can identify as Rose Kirk and from her clothing would say it is a mourning photo and probably from around 1915? Rose remarried in 1920 and she and her husband ran the Bakers Arms from sometime during WW2.
Hope you can help.
Thanks in anticipation.
Val
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Here is the second photo - too large before.
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The uniform can't identify a Regt. I'm afraid. The only information is that it's a post 1915 economy tunic.
The general clothes style is WW1.
With regard to the 2nd. photo there's no indication that she's in mourning. Her dress could be any darkish colour.
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Clean up....
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And another....
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Thanks jim1 for the info on the uniform, general age of clothing, and the comment about not necessarily a mourning photo. We thought that as both had been covered up by more recent pictures, that they were no longer relevant to Rose, being older and remarrying, so assumed they dated from around the time she was connected with her first husband and family, or possibly soon after her husband's death. We'll never know I suppose.
Thanks to others who have cleaned up the photos but really that wasn't my aim of posting here, so don't want people to spend their precious time on this. I am actually able to clean them up myself but just haven't got round to it as have a lot of these old pics to work on.
Thanks very much again, and any other insights into clothing/poses appreciated, but I think Jim1 has nailed it.
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Rose is wearing a wedding ring and looks happy so maybe this photo signifies a special occasion. Is there anything on the back of the photo.
Carol
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Hi Treetotal
Good question! I don't think there is anything on the back - these are photos of the original photos which are in the possession of a cousin. I'll ask him but I know other pics he's sent were mounted on card and he daren't attempt to remove the backing. Possibly the same situation here, and I'm pretty sure he would have told me what was on the back if anything was visible.
Do you know the significance of wearing a ring on her right hand index finger?
Cheers
Val
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Its on the middle finger, not the index. I doubt that there is any significance but it could be that the ring was a bequest and fitted this finger.
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Sorry, yes, middle finger. Will ask my cousin if she continued to wear that ring into old age. I used to visit her but wasn't really into jewellery and/or not very observant, so can't recall. Will have to look at some more recent photos of her....
Thanks.
Val
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Regarding the group photo:
Rootschatters helped with info about Arthur Kirk (one of the sons of the possible Kirk family in the photo) on this thread: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=832923.msg6975448#msg6975448
He did join the army, the Northumberland Fusiliers, but was only in from 1911 until 1912, and emigrated to Canada in 1913. His short army career included detentions for striking a senior officer, being drunk in town, and urinating into a ration tin. When he was arrested and sentenced to 6 months in a civil jail for breaking a plate glass window, he was discharged.
Also on his recruitment papers, he gave his brother Samuel as next of kin. Previously he had been discharged from training ship Exmouth into the care of Samuel, in 1909. From this I'm assuming that the parents were dead by this date, although it was likely the parents were living apart (given the court case reported in 1901 about the father and cruelty to the children, and his comments about his wife in court). Samuel also stated at his wedding in 1911 that his father was deceased, but the children might have washed their hands of their father or not known if he was dead or alive. Possibly the mother was dead or in a workhouse by 1909?
Whatever did happen, it seems unlikely that this family would have posed for a photograph together!
Perhaps it is a photo of one of Samuel Kirk's sisters and her inlaws etc? Another lockdown project...
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Your photo didn't attach, if you try to upload it again, you may need to rename the file.
Ok...I see them now....I didn't look at page 1
Carol
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If it helps it looks like grandparents & grandchildren in the front
& husband, wife & sister at the back.
The soldier looks early-mid 30's.
The picture would have been taken 1916-18 so someone born
around 1885ish.
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Thanks Jim1. The date, people and age ranges don't fit anything that I've discovered about the family so far, but I will bear these ideas in mind. It may be from Samuel and Alfred Kirk's maternal side of the family.
Is the buttonhole of significance, worn by the seated man? Or perhaps they just dressed up for the photo.