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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: tillimay on Saturday 12 August 17 00:26 BST (UK)
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I am new here, as I think everyone is, and quite new to the genealogy thing, although it certainly has taken over my life!
I have a mystery which I just can't solve so I'm hoping that more experienced minds might be able to help - please.
James Brown worked as a slater and was born in Edinburgh in 1859 or 1861, I have no idea who his parents were.
James was apparently married to Isabella Cumming but the only marriage in Scotland with these two names took place in 1888 but the parents for Isabella do not tie up with the names given on her death certificate, which gives her m.s. as Anderson. She died in 1945 in Edinburgh - this is the only certain fact.
Two daughters were born - Elizabeth in Airdrie (I think) in 1891 and Annie in Edinburgh in 1897, however, both seemed to be born illegitimate to Jeanie Montgomery, with no father being named on the birth certificates, however, Annie was given Brown as her middle name.
On Elizabeth's marriage certificate in 1907 her parents' names were given as Jeanie Brown m.s. Montgomery and James Brown, occupation slater.
Elizabeth's second daughter Jane b. 1909, was given Montgomery as a middle name.
On Annie's marriage certificate in 1915 her parents' names were given as Isabella Brown m.s. Cummings and James Brown, slater.
On Elizabeth's death certificate in 1969 her mother's name was given as Isabella Brown m.s. Cumming (deceased), father James Brown, slater (deceased).
On Annie's death certificate in 1978 her mother's name was given as Jeanie Montgomery (deceased) and the father's name is blank.
I have all the certificates for Annie and Elizabeth but haven't been able to identify a birth or death for James (apparently born in Edinburgh), or Isabella (apparently born in Coatbridge to Hugh and Isabella Cumming) or Jeanie Montgomery, who I think was born in Ireland - from the 1891 Census where she appears in Airdrie with James Brown, slater, age recorded as 32 on ScotlandsPeople but obliterated by the numerator.
I also think I've found them on the 1901 Census living in Edinburgh, where there is another daughter Jane, aged 6 months. I found a death for Jane in 1903 aged 2 - father James Brown (slater), mother Jane Brown m.s. Montgomery.
I am so confused, may be I'm missing something really obvious! I'm wondering if anyone can suggest what might have been going on. Any help, suggestions or just sympathy would be very welcome! Many Thanks.
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Hi and welcome to rootschat ;D
James Brown.....a very common name even if you only look in Edinburgh baptisms, so could it be two different James Browns who both happened to be slaters?
The good thing is Scottish records have more details!
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Welcome to RootsChat from me as well ;D
Looking at the families you list in 1891 and 1901 there was a mother in law Elizabeth White b 1829 Glasgow and sister in law born 1865 England living with the family at the time in 1891. So this family does tie in well with an 1888 marriage between James Brown and Isabella White in Newington. Edit however relooking at your post James and Jeannie are in Airdire in 1891 :-\
When there is confusion/uncertainly in a tree it is usually best to go back to facts that you are certain of and can prove, then work back from there. Brown is sadly a difficult surname to trace ;D
Kay
Edit -I think the 1888 marriage you refer to is on 25 July 1888 Edinburgh between James Brown 27 Batchelor - Slater and Isabella Cummings 27 Spinster His parents were Andrew Brown (gardener) and Mary and her parents were Mckenzie Cummings (Iron Moulder) and Isabella ms Wilson. Fits in with Elizabeth's death cert but doesn't really appear to tie in with the family in 1891 unless Isabella was away from home :-\
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Hi Tillimay
Welcome from me too :)
I think it likely that the 1888 marriage is the correct one. There was another daughter born in 1889, a Rose Horn Brown. There is a family tree for Rose which includes her birth cert. The marriage matches what Kay mentions.
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Possible entry for Rose and Isabella in 1891:
Donald Cumming 60 blacksmith b.Dornoch, Sutherland
Euphemia Cumming 30 daughter b. Dornoch, Sutherland
Bella Brown/Cumming 27 daughter Formerly Gen Serv Dom b. Dornoch, Sutherland - possible entry here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ4S-HZ4
Rose Brown 1 granddaughter b. Edinburgh
Address: Whiteface Post Office, Bonar, Creich Sutherland
Rose looks to have remained in Sutherland as she shows there still in 1901:
Donald Cumming 70 blacksmith b.Dornoch, Sutherland
Euphemia Cumming 34 daughter b. Dornoch, Sutherland
Rose Brown 11 granddaughter b. Edinburgh
Address: Whiteface, Bonar, Creich Sutherland
Monica
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When Rose married an Archibald Brown in 1913, these are the details she gave for her parents:
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For James Brown (also the others really!), I think the names he has given need further work... ::)
From his marriage in 1888, he shows father as Andrew, gardener as mentioned by Kay. His mother is given as Mary Bennet, previously Brown, maiden name Brown.
Assuming an Andrew Brown was his father, I think Andrew and Mary may not have been married. There is this possile birth for James in Edinburgh: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5W-3XK A numer of other births in Edinburgh at the time showing where parents shows just as Mary Brown (may be more than one Mary Brown though).
There is this marriage in Edinbburgh in 1866 which brings some of the info together: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2HR-HBDY This is from the Parish Register. The statutory register will give you more info including mothers' names and witnesses etc.
A little unravelling ahead here for sure ;)
Monica
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James was apparently married to Isabella Cumming but the only marriage in Scotland with these two names took place in 1888 but the parents for Isabella do not tie up with the names given on her death certificate, which gives her m.s. as Anderson. She died in 1945 in Edinburgh - this is the only certain fact.
Why do you think this is the correct death entry for Isabella Cummings?tt
You have two birth entries, for Elizabeth and Annie Montgommery. Both girls have James Brown, slater, as their father on their marriage and death certs but you have their births showing mother as Jean Montgomery? Have you found Elizabeth and Annie in the 1901 and 1911 censuses?
Have you found a death for James Brown (hard I know with a name like that)? Have you found a death for Jean Montgomery?
Monica
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You are motoring Monica ;D
I think this Elizabeth and Annie in 1901 that Tillimay found living at the Cowgate Edinburgh (where I got married!) The family is very similar to the James Brown/Isabella White family in 1891 who also married in 1888 which I found so confusing
James Brown 40 Slater b Edinburgh, Midlothian
Isabella Brown 31 b Coatbridge, Lanarkshire
Elizabeth Brown 10 Edin
Annie Brown 4 Edin
Jane Brown 6 Months
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Hi Kay
All confusing isn't it!
Just adding the 1891 entry for further background here:
James Brown 22 slater b. Edinburgh
Jeanie Brown 21 b. Ireland
Eliz Brown 1 Month b. Airdrie
Address: Millars Court, Airdrie
This must be the births of Elizabeth in 1891 in Airdrie and Annie in Edinburgh 1897 that you have tilliemay:
Elizabeth MONTGOMERY - 1891 - ref. 651/1 257
Airdrie or New Monkland
Annie Brown MONTGOMERY - 1897 - ref. 685/2 224
St Andrews, Edinburgh
That 1901 census fits so well for James Brown and the two girls, Elizabeth and Annie though.
Wonder what happened to to Isabella Cummings and Jean Montgomery? Also a death for James Brown :-\
Monica
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Just to add to the confusion I think this might be the birth of Jane Brown although James is listed as in the army??
Kay
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??? Confusion continues then, Kay!
Monica
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Kay, on the 1900 birth reg for Jane Brown, is there an original signature for father James Brown (assuming he was the informant)?
This is his original signature for the birth reg of Rose Horn Brown in 1889:
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Going round in circles trying to find something conclusive with all these names...and failing ::)
I thought this might be a possible entry for Mary Brown/Bennett in 1881 (haven't been able to find her so far with James in 1871):
Andrew Bennett 41 Late 72 Highlanders Pensioner b. Broughton, Edinburgh
Mary Bennett 46 wife b. Broughton, Edinburgh
Address: 42 Home St, Edinburgh
Maybe that possible marriage cert in 1866 could help further.
Monica
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Hello all - iluleah, Kay and Monica - thanks for the welcome and huge thanks for trying to unravel my mystery/mess!
I'll have to read and study all your suggestions - the only thing I can answer without thinking about it, is the question you asked Monica, about Isabella's death on 16 June 1945 - the informant is my husband's Granny, Elizabeth - Isabella died at her house, where my mother-in-law was born/grew up. So that's a definite! The death cert gives Hugh Cumming (gamekeeper) and Isabella m.s. Anderson as her parents. Couldn't trace them on ScotlandsPeople - I wonder if I should look further afield, England or Ireland?
My m-i-l only knew her Aunt Annie, to her knowledge there was only Annie and her mum Elizabeth. This of course wouldn't mean there wasn't another child who had died as a baby. She also knew her Granny Isabella - or Granny Broon as she was known (she was the only lady that ever visited Niddrie in a fur coat!) When I mentioned the name Jeanie Montgomery to my m-i-l it meant nothing, although it is the name her mum Elizabeth gave for her mother when she was married in 1907. Eight years later when Annie got married she gave Isabella Cumming as her mother - both marriages are definitely correct as the husbands are the right ones.
The date of birth on Annie's birth certificate, which shows her as the illegitimate daughter of Jeanie Montgomery, is also correct as it's the same as on her death certificate - 8 Feb 1897. Father is left blank, although she was given Brown as a middle name.
The dob on Elizabeth's birth certificate is one day out from the day she celebrated her birthday but not sure how relevant this is, I'm sure this kind of mistake happened, particularly if birth certificates bearing the word illegitimate were kept hidden.
The death certificates for both ladies had the mother's details reversed - Isabella Cumming on Elizabeth's (1969) and Jeanie Montgomery on Annie's (1978). Sorry if I'm repeating myself, I keep hoping it'll make sense!
Yes Monica, I agree the 1901 Census entry fits well, as does the 1891 Census from Airdrie (m-i-l knows her mother was born in the Glasgow area) - apart from the different mother. Or is she different, may be one morning Jeanie woke up and decided to call herself Isabella!
I'll have a closer look at the suggestions for James see if I can make it fit but without a marriage certificate for him and either Isabella or Jeanie, I'm not sure how I'll do that. I wouldn't be surprised if there was no marriage, I've found a few that said they were married when they weren't!
One last thing, comparing the 1900 birth certificate for Jane and her death certificate in 1903 - the informant was James Brown on both and the signatures look the same. But the mother is different - Isabella Cumming on the birth and Jane Brown m.s. Montgomery on the death.
I noticed that on Jane's birth certificate James was recorded as being in the Army Reserve - I went on to Fold3 and found papers for a James Brown, correct date, correct regiment but completely the wrong wife! Enter Mary . . . obviously the wrong James.
So many James Browns . . . so little time! But I'll keep on trying.
I am so frustrated and very thankful for all the help.
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Possible for James in 1861? The 1859 birth entry I thought might be him showed him as James Mennie Brown, with mother as Mary Brown indicating an illegitimate birth. Often children were given reputed father's name including surname. 1861 has this entry which might fit:
Mary Brown 65 labourer's widow b. Musselburgh, Edinburgh
Mary Brown 31 daughter, Formerly Dairymaid b. Musselburgh, Edinburgh
Alexander Brown 7 grandson b. Musselburgh, Edinburgh
James Mennie 2 grandson b. Musselburgh, Edinburgh
Address: 49 Lady Lawsons Wynd, Edinburgh
Monica
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Elizabeth you mentioned married in 1907. Have you found Annie in 1911? Aged about 14?
What did Elizabeth and Annie say about their father James when they married in respect of alive or deceased? Any family names for witnesses at the time of their marriages?
Monica
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Hi again Monica and Kay
Below are James' signatures from Jane's birth and death certificates - I do think they look alike, unlike James' signature on Rose's birth, when the signature was just J Brown rather than James.
I thought I'd found Annie in 1911, not with her parents but as I didn't print the page when I was at SP last week, I can't remember the details. I'll have to go back on that one. :-[
James was alive at the time of both Lizzie and Annie's marriages - or was recorded as such. Witnesses were Alfred Aitken, Euphemia Meikle, Bernard Lynch and Robina Clark - unfortunately, none mean anything to me, as far as I can tell at the moment they weren't family members.
Thanks again!
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Going round in circles trying to find something conclusive with all these name...and failing ::)
I thought this might be a possible entry for Mary Brown/Bennett in 1881 (haven't been able to find her so far with James in 1871):
Andrew Bennett 41 Late 72 Highlanders Pensioner b. Broughton, Edinburgh
Mary Bennett 46 wife b. Broughton, Edinburgh
Address: 42 Home St, Edinburgh
Maybe that possible marriage cert in 1866 could help further.
Monica
This is hopefully the 1866 marriage cert and the address at 49 Lady Lawson Wynd is the same that Monica found in 1861 three posts before for Mary Brown and son James Mennie
Kay
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Re James's army career I have found an enlistment on FindMyPast for James Brown born 1859 St Cuthberts Edinburgh.
Attestion was 21 Oct 1890 for 3rd Battalion Arg & Suthd Highrs Regiment . He enlisted in Stirling but I mention it because he was living in Airdrie at the time and working as a cork cutter for a Mr Dick in the town. I attach his signature - however he is listed as single and he stated that he had already served 12 years in the Regiment :-\
Kay
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Tillimay - On Isabella's death cert does it give her birth date??
Kay
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Good morning Kay!
There's no date of birth on Isabella's death certificate, I think it was before this information was recorded, it seems that only came later on the portrait style certs rather than the landscape ones.
:)
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Thanks - Does her age tie in with Isabella's age in 1901 ie born 1869??
Kay
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Hi
Interesting thread!
Just to throw this into the mix re the possible Sutherland connection. Bella Brown in 1891 is said to be married and born 1864 and living in Creich,Sutherland. There is in the 1901 an entry for a Bella Cumming working in Creich as a domestic servant also born 1864 (she is recorded as single and born in Creich, adjacent parish to Dornoch) - wonder if they are one and the same.
William
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Mmm!! With William's find I am coming round to Tillimay's thought that "maybe one morning Jeanie woke up and decided to call herself Isabella!"
Her age ties in with Isabella in 1901 and I think Isabella's age in 1945. I wonder if Jeanie's family came from Ireland and lived in the Coatbridge area?? Maybe Jeanie's parents were Hugh and Isabella :-\
Kay
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Hi William and thanks!
I hadn't considered Bellas as I've been told she was known as Isabella - is there any sign of James with the Bella you found? I do know that Elizabeth was very fond of James, suggesting he was in her life and not absent. It looks like he died after 1915 but before 1937 when m-i-l was born, as she never knew him.
Kay . . . Isabella's death certificate records her age as 76, giving a birth year of 1869. I did find a birth in Peterhead on 3 Oct 1870 of an Isabella Anderson Cumming (illegitimate), mother Jessie Cumming, but really not sure about this - her death cert records her as Isabella Cumming m.s. Anderson.
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Tilliemay, have you found Isabella/Jeannie ( ::)) in 1911? What about daughter Annie in 1911? Elizabeth was by now married wasn't she.
Monica
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Just a little summary on what we have so far on James' likely mother Mary Brown.
From her marriage in 1866 to Andrew Bennet that Kay supplied details from, her parents show as MacKenzie Brown and Mary Richardson.
This looks to be parents marriage in the OPRs from 1819 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY9Y-Q5N
1841 entry for family in Edinburgh:
McKenrie Brown 45 flesher
Mary Brown 40
Johan Brown 9
Mary Brown 8
Address: Morningside, Edinburgh
We had then Mary with mother Mary in 1861 on the census with son James Mennie (who we think might be the correct entry for James). Marriage in 1866 to Andrew Bennett. Census 1881 with Andrew Bennett. Missing 1851, 1871, and her death reg.
Positively straightforward compared to the rest so far!
Monica
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There is no sign of James Brown with the Isabella Cumming born in Sutherland - there appears to be only the one Isabella born in Sutherland in the correct time frame in Dornoch in 1859 and baptised in Creich 10 Oct 1859.
Census date 1861 - age 1 with parents in Dornoch. 1871 age 10 in Dornoch with parents.1881 age 19 general servant in home of Alexander McDonald. 1891 as Bella Brown age 27 showing as married age 27 with father,sister Euphemia and daughter Rose in Creich. Then there is Bella Cumming in 1901 age 37,general servant at Leopold House,Creich in the home of John Molson.
Incidentally I can also see only one death for an Isabella Cumming other name Brown (with a year of birth of 1861 plus or minus three) . This is in Dennistoun, Glasgow in 1928.
Like Kay I cannot help but wonder if your idea of assumed identity has some merit!
William
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William, great find for Isabella Cumming ;) It is her, living in Glasgow. It confirms her marriage to James Brown, slater. Death reported by her sister. Parents as we have up in Dornoch Sutherland.
Jeanie taking on Isabella Cumming's identity is looking very possible...never come across this before...but why not really. They couldn't marry until after Isabella had died and she lived till 1928.
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Below are the 4 signatures we have for James Brown:
1. 1889 birth of Rose Horn Brown
2. 1890 Army Enlistment papers
3. Birth of daughter Jane
4. Death of daughter Jane
What do you all think? I am of a mind they are the same man. Can't include the 1888 marriage signature as this is a copy register and does not include original signatures on the register entries.
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I think so as well
I have been fiddling with the origins of Jeanie I keep coming back to this family in 1881 Living in Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
Hugh Montgomery 32 Hammerman Tyrbone Ireland
Betsey Montgomery 31 Lanarkshire
Janey Montgomery 14 Ireland
Isabella Montgomery 5 Lanarkshire
Hugh Montgomery 3 Lanarkshire
Alexander Montgomery 9 Month
Checked the birth of Hugh and his mother's maiden name was Anderson!
Kay
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I can see why you are looking at that family, Kay. Looks promising for sure :)
Trying to summarise and link some of the info we have so far.
We have the marriage of James Brown, slater, aged 27 and Isabella Cumming, domestic servant, aged 26. Marriage took place in Edinburgh on 25 July 1888. James' likely born illegitimate. On cert gives father's name as Andrew (name of step father) and mother Mary showing as now married to Andrew Bennet, previously married to a xxx Brown, maiden name Brown. Isabella's info is all over the place really. She gives her father as Mackenzie Cumming, iron moulder and Isabella Wilson. McKenzie was the name of James Brown's maternal Brown grandfather... Understand the jumble on names for James Brown but not for Isabella Cummings.
The birth cert for Rose Horn Brown in Edinburgh in 1889 also gives parents' marriage as being on 25 July 1888, parents James Brown, slater and Isabella Cummings. She remained with her mother's family it seems and married for the first time in 1913 in Glasgow. Remarried in 1917, also in Glasgow. She gave her father as James Brown, blacksmith. I am thinking this relates to her grandfather Donald Cummings, a blacksmith, likely deceased by then.
The birth cert for Jane in 1900, showed a marriage date for parents as being on 25 June (should be July) 1888 in the St George's district (correct) of Edinburgh.
With the additonal possible details on the Montgomery side that you have found Kay and the names linking to potentially Isabella/Jeanie's death reg in 1945 (Isabella and Elizabeth as we know are common variants).....
Looks likely young Elizabeth and Annie never knew about or met Rose b. 1889 it seems :-\
Monica
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A very good summation Monica. I agree about the signatures. Clever Montgomery find, Kay.
Have you found them in the 1911 census, Tillimay? Wonder what they have written in the number of years married column.
William
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William - I didn't find them in the 1911 Census, certainly not together (apart from Elizabeth who was married in 1907), that would have been too easy! But armed with the print out of this thread, I will be going to ScotlandsPeople for more thorough checking. It has also proved that I need to keep better notes of the searches I have done :-[ ::)
Kay - as Monica says the Montgomery family you found in Old Monkland look very interesting . . . do you know where they were living in 1891? The birth certificate I have for Elizabeth (27 Feb 1891) has Jeanie Montgomery giving birth at 13 Wellwynd Street, Airdrie. Also, one thing that might be worth mentioning, Jeanie was illiterate, marking an X on both Elizabeth's and Annie's birth certificates. On the extract you posted from Hugh's 1877 birth certificate I see that Mum Elizabeth signed her name - do you think it's likely that Mum could write whereas her daughter couldn't, unless she had, what we would call today, learning difficulties?
Also, looking at the family there is a Janey age 14, b. in Ireland which would tie in with the 1891 Census where James Brown, 32, slater, b. Edinburgh, is living in New Monkland, Airdrie, with Jeannie, 21, b. Ireland and 1 month old Elizabeth b. Airdrie. The age doesn't quite add up but if the Hugh and Elizabeth were married in 1868 (can't quite read it) and Janey was born after they were married (!) that would probably make her born 1869 - same as my Isabella. What do you think?
More confirmation comes from the 1911 Census when Elizabeth is married, which gives her place of birth as Airdrie, Lanarkshire - the given names of her first two children were Isabella Galbraith Brown and Jane Montgomery (called Jeanie on 1911 Census). I think there is a Scottish naming pattern, can you draw any conclusions from these names?
I am still floundering a bit here but I have lots to work on - many thanks to all! ;D
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At the moment I can only see one of the 1881 Montgomery family post 1881. Anc has the WW1 pension record for Alexander Montgomery b 1880 Old Monkland. A marriage is listed on 3 Jan 1908
at Parkhead to Janet Guthier or Guthrie (widow) and he is listed as previously serving 12 years in the HLI and MI ? His family were living at Castle Douglas Kirkcudbrightshire in 1914
I think this is the marriage of Hugh and Betsy Montgomery https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGZF-2X1 which ties the details of the marriage on the birth cert. I attach the birth of their daughter Isabella which I think is more legible. It is possible Janey/Jeanie was born pre the parents marriage or age of the census is out :-\ Based on Hugh and Isabella's birth cert's both parents could write and I agree that you would expect their daughter to be capable of signing her name
Will return to fiddling. I wish we could find James and Isabella/Jeanie in 1911
Kay
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Annie got married in 1915? Where was this and what address did she give on her marriage cert? The same with Elizabeth some years earlier. Where was Elizabeth living at the time of the 1911 census?
Similarly, when searching for possible deaths for James Brown, where did Elizabeth and Annie live after they married. From what you mentioned, tilliemay, Isabella/Jeanie came to live with Elizabeth in her later years? Do you know approx. when that move took place?
Sorry...questions, questions ::) ;)
Monica
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Apologies for the late reply, been a busy day! :P
Monica - when Elizabeth was married in 1907, her address was the same as her husband in Fountainbridge. Her husband's family lived in Fountainbridge in the 1901 Census but at a different number. I'm guessing they were staying with his family, who had probably moved up the road.
When Annie was married in August 1915, her address was in the Potterrow.
I have found Elizabeth in the 1911 Census living just with her husband and two young daughters - Isabella age 3 and Jeannie age 1 in Grove Street. Checking the addresses on the birth certificates of her other children, I'm sure that Elizabeth was living at the Potterrow address from 1915 until at least 1931. I checked the Valuation Rolls, hoping to find James or Isabella as the registered occupant thinking it may be a family address, but Elizabeth is the named occupier tenant from 1920 to 1930. Elizabeth was probably the tenant occupier in 1915, when Annie was married, but the VR is made up before the date of Annie's marriage.
As Annie married during WW1 her husband was on active service with the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, his address on enlistment was his parents in Paisley. Annie's first child was born in 1917 in Edinburgh, while Annie's husband was still on active service. It could well be that Annie was staying with family, possibly at the Potterrow address. I haven't got the birth certificate to check the address but I'll get it when I go to SP. After the war they lived most of their married lives in Elderslie, just outside Paisley.
In answer to the last question about when Isabella moved, I know that initially she went to live in Elderslie with Annie but I don't know when or for how long. When she became ill Elizabeth went to Elderslie to pick her up and took her to her new address in Niddrie, where she died in 1945.
Sadly, still no clue where James was living but I'll do some more work with the Valuation Rolls, which give occupations. That will need to be a visit to SP - which will be another busy day! ;)
Kay - the marriage definitely looks right but I don't know how we can prove it's our Jeanie/Janey. When I saw she had a younger sister called Isabella, I wondered if she had taken on her children but that still doesn't explain where the name Cumming came from. I'm losing the plot slightly - I'm very grateful for your fiddling! :)
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There is a James Brown, slater by trade, showing in the post office directories/valuation rolls from at least 1915 to 1933. The address given is 135 Easter Road in Leith. Not sure if this address would be North or South Leith? At least one possible death for a James Brown in each on SP between 1933-45.
There are also further entries on Easter Road from the early 1900s for a James Brown.
A further James Brown, chimney sweep and slater shows as 2 Lyne Street. He shows there earlier on the 1901 census so certain this is not the correct entry.
Monica
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Easter Road would be South Leith.
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Thanks, Hibee :)
On a separate front, can't see 1891 so far for the Montgomery family but this looks like them in 1901:
Hugh Montgomery 56 Cattleman On Farm b. Ireland
Elizabeth Montgomery 55 b. Dalserf, Lanarkshire
Elizabeth Montgomery 16 b. Hamilton
Christina Montgomery 14 b. Glasgow
James Montgomery 7 b. Glasgow
Address: 3 Scotstown Place, Cambuslang Lanark
I think Elizabeth Anderson/Montgomery died in the 1920s in Rutherglen.
Monica
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Well found Monica. I can't see them either in 1891
Kay
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Good find Monica. I can see a birth for an Elizabeth Anderson Montgomery in Old Monkland in1881 (there is a birth record for her on Family Search naming parents as Hugh Montgomery and Elizabeth Anderson Montgomery) and a death for her in 1882. There is a birth for an Elizabeth Anderson Montgomery in Hamilton in 1885, which matches with the place of birth in the 1901 census.
I can see a Christina Montgomery b 1887 Glasgow showing as niece to Elizabeth Pattison and her brother Samuel Montgomery (both born Ireland) in 1891 in Glasgow but cannot say if it is the correct person.
William
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We need James Brown's death to explain it all!
Something along the lines of: he married Isabella Cummings, left her with baby Rose and rejoined the army where he had already been for some years (and why he was hiding from earlier censuses). Then met Jeanie Montgomery, fell in love and had at least 3 girls with her (maybe more with some deaths?). Couldn't divorce Isabella Cummings. Covered everything up with Jeanie going by the name of Isabella Cummings. Even daughters Elizabeth and Annie got confused and messed up when naming their mother......etc
If only ;D
Monica
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I would love to know the story the daughters were told. ;D
Kay
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Wonderfully put, Monica. I can just about see how the Isabella/ Jeannie name swap might have started and become unstoppable - the part I really do not get is Isabella's parents names on her marriage to James Brown.
William
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William, great find for Isabella Cumming ;) It is her, living in Glasgow. It confirms her marriage to James Brown, slater. Death reported by her sister. Parents as we have up in Dornoch Sutherland.
Jeanie taking on Isabella Cumming's identity is looking very possible...never come across this before...but why not really. They couldn't marry until after Isabella had died and she lived till 1928.
I'm a bit confused by this as OP has stated that Isabella died in 1945 ( one of the few things that seems certain)
Isobel
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Neither do I, William :-\
The main thing I am holding on to is the link through from the forgotten (likely) first child Rose Horn Brown born 1889. Her birth details with marriage of parents confirming what we have from 1888 (inspite of errors). Rose then with maternal grandfather in Sutherland in 1891 and 1901. First marriage in 1913 (haven't checked second marriage in 1917). All pretty consistent for her.
Her mother and (likely) James' first wife, Isabella Cumming's death confirmed the details back to the Sutherland family that we found.
With James Brown in the middle of all of this :)
Monica
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Hi Isobel :)
Certainly a complete confusion in names. These are some of the other details that tilliemay has posted. There are more throughout the thread, but getting lengthy and easy to miss them:
Hello all - iluleah, Kay and Monica - thanks for the welcome and huge thanks for trying to unravel my mystery/mess!
I'll have to read and study all your suggestions - the only thing I can answer without thinking about it, is the question you asked Monica, about Isabella's death on 16 June 1945 - the informant is my husband's Granny, Elizabeth - Isabella died at her house, where my mother-in-law was born/grew up. So that's a definite! The death cert gives Hugh Cumming (gamekeeper) and Isabella m.s. Anderson as her parents. Couldn't trace them on ScotlandsPeople - I wonder if I should look further afield, England or Ireland?
My m-i-l only knew her Aunt Annie, to her knowledge there was only Annie and her mum Elizabeth. This of course wouldn't mean there wasn't another child who had died as a baby. She also knew her Granny Isabella - or Granny Broon as she was known (she was the only lady that ever visited Niddrie in a fur coat!) When I mentioned the name Jeanie Montgomery to my m-i-l it meant nothing, although it is the name her mum Elizabeth gave for her mother when she was married in 1907. Eight years later when Annie got married she gave Isabella Cumming as her mother - both marriages are definitely correct as the husbands are the right ones.
The date of birth on Annie's birth certificate, which shows her as the illegitimate daughter of Jeanie Montgomery, is also correct as it's the same as on her death certificate - 8 Feb 1897. Father is left blank, although she was given Brown as a middle name.
The dob on Elizabeth's birth certificate is one day out from the day she celebrated her birthday but not sure how relevant this is, I'm sure this kind of mistake happened, particularly if birth certificates bearing the word illegitimate were kept hidden.
The death certificates for both ladies had the mother's details reversed - Isabella Cumming on Elizabeth's (1969) and Jeanie Montgomery on Annie's (1978). Sorry if I'm repeating myself, I keep hoping it'll make sense!
Yes Monica, I agree the 1901 Census entry fits well, as does the 1891 Census from Airdrie (m-i-l knows her mother was born in the Glasgow area) - apart from the different mother. Or is she different, may be one morning Jeanie woke up and decided to call herself Isabella!
I'll have a closer look at the suggestions for James see if I can make it fit but without a marriage certificate for him and either Isabella or Jeanie, I'm not sure how I'll do that. I wouldn't be surprised if there was no marriage, I've found a few that said they were married when they weren't!
One last thing, comparing the 1900 birth certificate for Jane and her death certificate in 1903 - the informant was James Brown on both and the signatures look the same. But the mother is different - Isabella Cumming on the birth and Jane Brown m.s. Montgomery on the death.
I noticed that on Jane's birth certificate James was recorded as being in the Army Reserve - I went on to Fold3 and found papers for a James Brown, correct date, correct regiment but completely the wrong wife! Enter Mary . . . obviously the wrong James.......
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James must have listened to our exasperation and has decided to be a little helpful ;)
He died at the age of 70 in 1929 in the Royal Infirmary from a gastric ulcer haemorrhage. 'Isabella Brown' reported his death and left her mark.
James' death shows him as James Meaney Brown which lets us confirm that earlier birth to Mary Brown in 1859 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5W-3XK At least that is fully confimed now and we have him with mother and maternal grandmother in 1861. From his marriage to Isabella Cumming in 1888, he gave his mother's married name which has let us confirm her details from her marriage to Andrew Bennet. This all helps to provide proper and accurate confirmation on his line and also reconfirm that the 1888 marriage for him to Isabella Cumming from Sutherland was correct.
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Not sure why it is not James that shows on the 1925 VRs at the address from the death reg:
Mrs Isabella BROWN - Inhabitant Occupier - HOUSE 37 PALMERSTON PLACE
EDINBURGH 1925
VR010000495
Monica
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There are some good properties in Palmerston Place!
Just to say that Isabella Cumming signed her name on the 1888 marriage cert.
Great find, Monica!
To Isobel W - it is a fascinating tale but our hypothesis seems to be that the marriage of James Brown and Isabella Cumming broke down rather quickly. He then took up with Jean Montgomery who for some reason subsequently assumed the identity of Isabella Cumming . Hence the two Isabella Cumming death certs.
William
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There are some good properties in Palmerston Place!
To Isobel W - it is a fascinating tale but our hypothesis seems to be that the marriage of James Brown and Isabella Cumming broke down rather quickly. He then took up with Jean Montgomery who for some reason subsequently assumed the identity of Isabella Cumming . Hence the two Isabella Cumming death certs.
William
I have to agree that is definitely the way it looks!
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Great find Monica, I'm not sure how I missed that death for James Brown :-[
The fact that Isabella left her mark when registering his death, adds something to the name/identity swap idea because, as we know, Jeanie was also unable to sign her name.
I don't know why James' name isn't on the 1925 VR for the Palmerston Place address but I've checked the VR's back to 1920, when a Mrs Elizabeth Kirkwood is the Proprietor - all the residents were female, same for 1925. I was a bit concerned at first but then I found this on the internet:
"Sims and Clare say that Ethel’s longest-lasting address in Edinburgh was 37 Palmerston Place. I did a day’s dredge myself in the Edinburgh Room at the City Library, through the Street Directories, the Valuation Rolls and the Voters’ Rolls. Referred to from 1926 onwards as Palmerston House, a legend still engraved on the glass above its chaste and dignified door, it appears to have been arooming house from 1920 onwards (though Palmerston Place, built from 1880 to 1883, had always been and still is a prestigious address, the last place you would expect to find such an establishment), with fifteen voters plus Ethel listed in 1926, though the average was usually about nine. They were accommodated on the three floors of this spacious house plus the attics. (The basement was occupied by one Mary Hinnigan, the caretaker, and was not a rated part of the house.) The rooms were separately rated, and graded according to their architectural status in the house. Ethel and Edith had the more modest rooms.
In 1921-2 Ethel lists herself as ‘authoress’; Edith is listed but indicates nothing of her profession, though in the 1922-3 Valuation Roll she describes herself as ‘a lecturer’. In 1923-4 Ethel is listed but Edith is not. In 1924-5 Ethel is still there, an authoress. The occupations of other tenants are variously given as nurse, shopwoman, clerk, cashier, missionary and masseuse, a respectable bunch of women going about their lawful business, but definitely girls of slender means, rather an unusual class of person to be living in Palmerston Place. In 1926 Ethel is in the Voters’ Roll at this address, but from 1927 on there is no word of her."
Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it's quite interesting!
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That is an interesting story around the property (also as an aside on the property, it has a Bay City Rollers angle in later decades too, when it was bought by one of the band members www.rootschat.com/links/01kjn/).
Why would Isabella Jeanie have been based there I wonder by herself in 1925 ???
Monica
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Worth doing a search in the newspaper archive just searching for 37 Palmerston Place. Lots of adverts in The Scotsman re rental acccomodation there. (The property seems to have been a war dressiings depot in WW1).
William
Added Mr Google would suggest 37 Palmerston Place is now called Palmerston Suites-interesting photos on Trip Advisor etc.
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From memory I was at college many, many years ago at 39 Palmerston Place - I think pre Bay City Rollers!!! The place was enormous! Small world
Kay
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A bit more checking of the VRs after I posted last night, shows that in 1925 Isabella was an Inhabitant Occupier - apart from the Proprietor Miss Kirkwood, all the other residents were Tenant Occupiers and single girls, which confirms what you discovered about it being a rooming house, William.
It seems that an Inhabitant Occupier was someone who had tied accommodation, so may be Isabella was responsible for cleaning and James was either carrying on his trade as a slater or had retired from that and was a maintenance/handyman. May be there was a newspaper advert for staff for 37 Palmerston Place around the right time to tie up the story, a bit more checking I think. No matter what they were doing there it must've been a huge step up from living in a tenement! No wonder she wore a fur coat when she visited the family in Niddrie! Fascinating. :)
We also have a Bay City Rollers connection - hubby's cousin (also descended from Elizabeth) went to the same school and was in the same class as Stuart 'Woody' Wood. 8)
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Just to go slightly off piste Miss Kirkwood looks like a very interesting lady. The valuation roll for 1925 gives her full name as Elizabeth Henry Kirkwood. (There is only one birth on SP for someone with this name).
This is a brief biography
Elizabeth Henry Kirkwood (1882- 1967)
...was a member of the Edinburgh family of engravers and medalists.Her father was a master goldsmith. In a long career her work involved many ceremonial work,including badges of office,trophy cups and mazer bowls.She took over the enameling of stallplates for the Chapel of the Knights of the Thistle...She had her studios in Thistle Street and George Street.
There seem to be various references to her in The Scotsman,some as Elizabeth Kirkwood and some as Elizabeth H Kirkwood. One article from 1943 refers to a talk she gave on "Single Rooms for Professional Women" where she advocated a semi - communal style of living.
William
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Elizabeth Kirkwood sound a fascinating character for sure doesn't she. Hopefully a good place for Isabella Jeanie to have been living/working at :)
Monica
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That's what I love about genealogy, finding out the stories behind the names and dates - that's why it's so addictive! ;D