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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: barryd on Friday 25 August 17 13:58 BST (UK)

Title: South Africa Research Help
Post by: barryd on Friday 25 August 17 13:58 BST (UK)
Gertrude Wynne Cole was possibly born in South Africa about 1861. She married Seymour Dallas (of Lancashire, England) 25 March 1878, Cape Town children found so far:
Gertrude Mary Dallas born abt 1879
Jessie Seymour Dallas born abt Nov 1881
Female Dallas born 29 October 1883 (Cape Times)

Gertrude divorced Seymour Dallas in South Africa or England?

The divorced Gertrude married Bernard Vidal Shaw 1889 Kensington, London.

They went to British Guiana where Bernard was employed as Head of Prisons.

Three children born there.

Blanche Shaw born about 1890
Bernard Vidal Shaw born 28 April 1891
Eyre Massey Shaw born 1895/6. Killed WWI

Now comes the weird part which has no relevance to South Africa. A Blanche Seymour Shaw married a William Harold B. Whitaker 11 June 1918. London. Who names a child with the first (divorced) and second husbands names? Blanche Seymour Shaw born 1890 according to Whittaker research.

Any help on filling the South African gaps will be appreciated.
 
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: ancestorsnoop on Friday 25 August 17 15:56 BST (UK)
son born in 1881
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kld/

Gertrude Mary Dallas' marriage
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kl9/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kla/

Jessie Seymour Dallas's birth
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01klc/

daughter (Minnie May Dallas) born in 1883
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kle/

Seymour Dallas
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01klb/

Blanche Seymour Shaw only dau of Capt Bernard Shaw
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cmricha/fam4690.html
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: barryd on Friday 25 August 17 16:48 BST (UK)
Many thanks for the information. That will keep me going for a long time. The South African records seem to be very well preserved and what's so important - available. I will publish anything new on Roots Chat.
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: ancestorsnoop on Friday 25 August 17 17:14 BST (UK)
South African indexes & records (some aren't indexed yet, so you have to browse through them
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/location/1927115?region=South+Africa
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: ancestorsnoop on Friday 25 August 17 18:27 BST (UK)
England & Wales, Index of Wills & Administrations 1858-1966
Seymour Dallas of 11 Limes-road Weybridge Surrey died 14 May 1933 at 16 Leas-mansions Folkestone Probate London 23 June 1933 to Michael Bernard Foster M.D. and Stanley William Bishop merchant.  Effects £3452 17s. 2d.

Stanley W. Bishop married Minnie M. Dallas Jan-Mar 1918, Chelsea District, Middlesex.
Stanley William Bishop, born 25 Nov 1887, Harlesden, Middlesex, England, died 13 May 1965 at 3 Pentire View, Polzeath, Cornwall & Minnie May Dallas, born 28 Oct 1883, died Jul-Sep 1976, Truro district, Cornwall. 
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: cath151 on Saturday 26 August 17 10:33 BST (UK)
Hi
Snippet Google books
 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y6xsAAAAMAAJ&q=justice+cole+gertrude+wynne&dq=justice+cole+gertrude+wynne&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEm7Hzy_TVAhWIa1AKHbzKCTMQ6AEIJjAA
Cathy
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: ancestorsnoop on Saturday 26 August 17 15:38 BST (UK)
Alfred Whaley Cole (1823-1896)
http://www.victorianresearch.org/atcl/show_author.php?aid=1145

African Review, Volume 9
Death of Mr. Justice Cole
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01klk/

"Reminiscences of my life and of the Cape bench and bar"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01klj/

Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: barryd on Sunday 27 August 17 05:27 BST (UK)
I can hardly keep up. A few points from the information you have all sent me. The Cape Times "a daughter" born 28 October 1883 turns out to be Minnie May Dallas born 28 October 1883. What's a day difference !!!

Blanche Seymour Shaw (Mrs Whitaker) is as far as I can tell an adopted daughter of  Bernard Vidal Shaw.  Other researchers have missed the fact that she was 52 when she died (Free BMD) and that makes her birth year 1885 which is before the divorce and re-marriage of Gertrude Wynne Cole (Mrs Dallas). Again who names a daughter Seymour. Only Seymour Dallas would have done that

It getting late and Master Cat is calling for his (late) supper.
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: barryd on Wednesday 30 August 17 05:40 BST (UK)
The document sent to me on the marriage of William Bovil Whitaker is vague on the age of death of Blanche Seymour Shaw his wife. (died age 46-47 ?). However their marriage 11 June 1918 is correct and the marriage certificate is published on the internet and her age at the time of marriage in 1918 is 32. Works out to born about 1886. The is the year that Seymour Dallas is trying to get a divorce from his wife Gertrude. 

I think there is a possibility that Bernard Vidal Shaw adopted Blanche Seymour Dallas.

I ordered the marriage certificate of Mrs Dallas/Shaw from the GRO in England and awaiting its arrival.

I am predicting a Register Office Marriage as one party was divorced
Will be interested to see if Gertrude calls herself a widow, or divorcee. Remember Queen Victoria is still on the throne!

Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: barryd on Friday 01 September 17 00:55 BST (UK)
Two crucial bits of information.

On the 1939 Index the Widow Gertrude Shaw gives her birthday as 10 August 1862. Living at 41 Elvaston Place, Kensington, London. Widow. I was concerned that the address may be of another Gertrude Shaw. I went to the Electoral Rolls just before the war and there she was. Went back to 1929 Electoral  Rolls and there she was this time as Gertrude Wynne Shaw and her husband Bernard Vidal Shaw same address in Elvaston Place. I think she should have known her own birth date so that 1862 date should be right.

I found Blanche Seymour Shaw as mentioned on the Whitaker document sent to me. On the 1896 Census of British Guiana she is 11 years old. That means she is born about 1885. Before the divorce proceedings started. It was a South African divorce in the High Court of Griqualand.
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: HughC on Friday 01 September 17 15:22 BST (UK)
Warning: the Mormons have transcribed some of those Süth Efrican records every bit as badly as Ancestry does.  Found one of my relatives with forenames Anne Aleusda, marrying a John Hubert.

Fortunately someone has put the announcement in the Natal Witness on the tangled web:
her middle name was Aleurida and his was Herbert, just as I always thought.
I admit Aleurida is an unusual name, but at least it exists (or did then)!
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: 3sillydogs on Friday 01 September 17 16:52 BST (UK)

Warning: the Mormons have transcribed some of those Süth Efrican records every bit as badly as Ancestry does.  Found one of my relatives with forenames Anne Aleusda, marrying a John Hubert.



These records are transcribed by volunteers, often not from South Africa and therefore not familiar with the places or the language, the older documents are mainly in Dutch or Afrikaans and the handwriting is often so awful that a best guess is all the transcriber can do. ;) ;)
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: barryd on Friday 29 September 17 13:39 BST (UK)
I received the marriage certificate of Gertrude to Bernard Vidal Shaw. As I predicted it was in the Register Office, in Kensington, London (where she was living) married on 24  October 1889. A very informative certificate the groom is Bernard Vidal Shaw and the bride is Gertrude Wynne Dallas formerly Cole, Spinster, (before the Dallas marriage). He is a Bachelor She is described as The Divorced Wife of Seymour Dallas.

I found Seymour Dallas and his wife Gertrude in Islington, London 1881 Census. He is an Actor, she a Vocalist. Oldest daughter Gertrude Mary Dallas is with them. Mother and daughter born in South Africa, Seymour Dallas, England.

Fathers on the Marriage Certificate, Eyre Massey Shaw, and George Montague Cole, Bank Manager, deceased. Have found a George Montague Cole on the Internet but no reference to a Bank Manager.   
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: barryd on Monday 09 October 17 03:10 BST (UK)
Thank you Cath 151


"Date ? ....at the Cape. Gertrude Wynne actress and niece of Mr.Justice Cole (Alfred Whaley Cole) We were delighted to see each-other again. Talked for some time then I had to say a goodbye as the coach to Kimberley was ready to make its last stage of the journey. Authour - Charles William Henry Kohler.

Justice Cole is more documented than George Montague Cole. Should be able to take take George Montague Cole back further on the strength of his brother Alfred Whaley Cole. George was a Bank Manager so they normally do not have much history published.

Gertrude Wynne Cole - married Seymour Dallas - she aged 16. Cape Town
Divorced then married Bernard Vidal Shaw - she aged 26/27 Kensington, London Register Office.
Title: Re: South Africa Research Help
Post by: barryd on Friday 01 May 20 03:54 BST (UK)
All the evidence points Blanche Seymour Dallas being the last child of Seymour Dallas born prior to his divorce from Blanche's mother Gertrude Wynne Cole Dallas. Blanche was adopted by Bernard Vidal Shaw. The only child of Seymour and Gertrude to be adopted by Shaw and renamed Shaw.