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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Rodney53 on Saturday 26 August 17 07:03 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have any information about this couple? I am struggling to find many details about them. It has been suggested that they had three sons.
Any help would be appreciated. The Morgans are an elusive family to track.
Thanks.
Rodney53
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Do you have his death certificate?Victorian BDM index is free to search.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
Worth a look here.http://ausbdm.ucoz.org/
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Event Death
registration number 7979
year 1941
Family name MORGAN
Given names John
Father's name MORGAN Charles Moore
Mother's name Mary Ann (Unknown)
Place of birth PORT MELBOURNE
Place of death HEIDELBERG
Age 48
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Many thanks, Giblet.
This is great.
Much appreciated.
Rodney53
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Thanks, warncoort, was checking that site when the next reply came in.
All help received with thanks.
Rodney53
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Noting the middle name of John on the Death index given above-Moore, this looks like a ww2 index for a son.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=490163
The feminine version of Francis is of course Frances. Here there is an error in spelling I think where noted as NOK.
Please do not publish this man's name as we have no idea whether or not he is alive.
He appears on the Victorian Electoral Roll in 1943 at an address in Lilydale, the same suburb his mothe lives in. He is listed as a soldier.
Sue
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A bit of a stab at his birth ::)
Eustace John Rupert MORGAN
Father Chas
Mother Mary Ann CARBURY.
Port Melbourne
1892
16508
Sue
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Many thanks, Sue.
The names are consistent with other family members and the picture is becoming clearer.
Much appreciated.
Rodney53
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Many thanks, Sue.
The names are consistent with other family members and the picture is becoming clearer.
Much appreciated.
Rodney53
So what do you actually need to find out? ;D
Sue
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I am trying to establish that the John Morgan who died 1941 is the same as Eustace Morgan. The evidence suggests yes. The "Moore" name is very much part of our Morgans. I'm also wondering if the story of three children is true.
This branch of the Morgan family is very unfamiliar to me.
I am also wondering if the line continues.
Thanks again, Sue, for your help.
Rodney53
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Buried alone:
Plot Number 371395
Area Name: [LLC] CE3-Church of England 3
Cemetery: Lilydale Lawn Cemetery
Burial Number: 760227
Surname Morgan
Given Name: John
Age 48 Y
Service Date: 14-8-1941
Jamjar
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John died under the name John
He is buried under the name John. (see above)
Eustace had at least one sibling, sister.
MORGAN, Letitia Emily Rosalie.
Father Chas
Mother Mary Ann CARBURY.
Port Melbourne
1895/6201
Sue
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The tragic death of a man who appears to be the father of Eustace MORGAN.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222248579
Sue
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1914 3098 MORGAN Letitia Emily to SETCHES Stanley
Is this her death? ???
SETCHES Letitia Emily Roslyn father MOOR Charles mother Mary Alice (Power) aged 54. Born Melbourne, died Parkville 1950 772.
Jamjar
Added:
SETCHES Letitia Emily R Fawkner Memorial Park Church Of England FA-COE*T***7730 Interment 18/01/1950
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22805196
Buried with:
DENTON Letitia Emily Constance 27-10-1914 2-06-2010 Fawkner Memorial Park Church Of England FA-COE*T***7730 Interment 9-6-2010
DENTON Kenneth Lynwood 30-6-1998 Fawkner Memorial Park Church Of England FA-COE*T***7730 Interment of C.R. 2-7-1998
Birth:
1914 33266 SETCHES Letitia Emily Constance father Stanley Barcelona mother Letitia Emily Roslie Wfred (Morgan)
Marriage:
1938 5064 SETCHES Letitia Emily Constance to DENTON Kenneth Lynwood
Death of Stanley:
1956 3391 SETCHES Stanley Barcelona father SETCHES Unknown mother Unknown (Unknown), aged 63
Cremated:
Stanley Barcelona Setches
Springvale Botanical Cemetery (The cremated remains have been scattered)
Date of Service
3 April 1956
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Other children of Letitia and Stanley:
1916 31535 Alma Joyce Mary
1916 31534 Chas Jno Stan
Deaths:
1919 5683 Chas Jno Setches aged 2
1928 820 Wesley Setches aged 2 mths
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204165571
1986 19144 Alma Joyce Mary Setches aged 69
SETCHES Alma Joyce Mary 22-7-1986 Fawkner Memorial Park New Lawn Area East FA-NLA*E*K**5 Interment 25-7-1986
SETCHES Alma Joyce Mary (Girlie) Death notice 22-7-1986 Death The Age (Melbourne) 24-7-1986
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The tragic death of a man who appears to be the father of Eustace MORGAN.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222248579
Sue
From the article:
In the article: " Thus Mrs Mary Morgan suddenly learned that she was a widow and her three children were fatherless."
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Found child 3, as per your family tree web page:
Death in Qld: 1938 B39180 Charles Moore Morgan parents Charles Moore Morgan and Mary Ann Carberry
At Mt Thompson Cemetery: https://www.heavenaddress.com/Charles-Moore-Morgan/842771/
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184363151
In Memoriam: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article98234944
He was a vocalist, daughter's death: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article177977650
Daughter's birth and death:
1906 R1214 Myrtle Lilian Morgan Charles Moore Mary Ann Smith
1916 B23917 Myrtle Lilian Morgan Charles Moore Morgan Mary Ann Smith
Burial with sister:
Surname: MORGAN
Given Names: MYRTLE L
Date of Service 25-7-1916
Service Type: Burial
Cemetery: South Brisbane Cemetery
Address Annerley Road
Location Details: 8-291
MORGAN LITITIA M, Date of service: 25-08-1923
1923 B40792 Letitia Mabel Morgan Charles Moore Morgan Mary Ann Smith
Jamjar
Added:
1906 B12481 Leila Alma Morgan Charles Moore Mary Ann Smith
1908 B17630 Edna May Phoebe Morgan Charles Moore Mary Ann Smith
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I am trying to establish that the John Morgan who died 1941 is the same as Eustace Morgan. The evidence suggests yes. The "Moore" name is very much part of our Morgans. I'm also wondering if the story of three children is true.
This branch of the Morgan family is very unfamiliar to me.
I am also wondering if the line continues.
Thanks again, Sue, for your help.
Rodney53
hi Rodney
So now you have a good deal of information about Charles and Mary Ann, what specifically are you requesting help with and where you have already searched for information?
Letting people know what info you already have right from the beginning saves wasted time
Would you be able to let us know?
Sue
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Thanks, Sue.
i was bamboozled by the John Morgan/Eustace John Morgan differences and didn't know why he went missing on electoral rolls from the Eustace name. Didn't know if the John Morgan death notice was him or not. And had seen some names on electoral rolls which I thought might be his children but had no way of confirming them.
Once a death record with his parents names came through, things became clearer and the son in the army made the possible children on electoral rolls seem likely. Have since found a couple of other little bits.
Because this branch of the family is unknown to mine, and the name changes, I was a bit lost.
Things are much clearer now, for which I am very grateful.
My apology for any inconvenience.
Rodney53
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I'd like to know when and where Mary Carberry died.
Rodney, I am assuming that it is your Geni tree. Where have you got the large list of family members from, as I see you have no dates, or sources, on the tree?
Jamjar
Edited first sentence, as I found the parents' marriage.
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Wife of Charles Moore Jnr:
1934 B23244 Mary Ann Morgan Frank Smith Mary Ann Dwyer
Funeral notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1167325
Burial:
South Brisbane Cemetery
Surname: MORGAN
Given Names: MARY ANN
Date of Service: 5-2-1934
Service Type: Burial
Location: M-176
Statutory notice-to creditors, last column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article186152940
Jamjar
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Two Charles Morgans with wives Mary Ann makes it tricky. I don't think I have Mary Ann Carberry's death details at all. There is a reference to her being alive when her son Charles died in 1938 but have found no record of her death yet.
The Geni tree is mine. Very light on details since I've not kept working with that format. And what I tend to do is put suggested possible members then seek confirmation, which is where this thread began. And contributions such as yours have helped clarify that Eustace and John Morgan are one and the same.
The only line i know well is the Owen Orr Morgan line which is my direct line. All of the others are unknown on a personal basis, so I tread carefully.
Hard family to trace, our Morgans.
I am very grateful for all your help, and that of all others. I'm still not great with the technology of genealogy.
Rodney53
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Thinking this may be the death of Mary Ann Snr, as if I remember correctly there were other family members at Parkville:
1945 83 MORGAN Mary Ann father's name unknown mother's name unknown (unknown) Place of birth: BENDIGO, Place of death: PARKVILLE aged 85
Jamjar
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I have not seen this at all. Tried and failed to find a record of her death. The dates certainly look consistent.
Many thanks.
Rodney53
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Rodney53
Do know if the WALL family are the same family as the earlyish Victorian Settlers of the 1840's (I think)?!
bitzar.
Edit: DISREGARD POST.... I HAD A MOMENT! WRONG SURNAME :-)
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Hello bitzar,
I'm afraid I don't have any record yet for Frances Wall, not even to firmly connect her as wife of John Morgan, but indicators are positive.
Does she (and John Morgan) appear in your research?
When (and if) I find anything, I'll certainly let you know.
Thanks.
Rodney53
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Found child 3, as per your family tree web page:
At Mt Thompson Cemetery: https://www.heavenaddress.com/Charles-Moore-Morgan/842771/
The age at death given here is not his correct age.
His parents married a couple of years after his birth in Victoria.
Marriage
MORGAN, Charles. Born St Kilda
CARBERRY, Mary Anne. Born HOTHAM.
1879. (4891)
Birth of Charles (jnr)
CARBERRY, Charles Morgan
Father Unknown
Mother Mary Ann CARBERRY
At Emerald Hill
1877. Reg 2399
The length of time between births to this couple may be noteworthy ???
Sue
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Thanks, Sue and Jamjar,
The Mt Thompson cemetery location rings a bell. The photo is new to me. many thanks.
That birth record Sue, what a ripper. It both fleshes out the story and muddies the waters :)
Which is very much the Morgan story, I have to admit.
Thanks to clues from you and others, I have found an obit. for Ronald Moore Morgan which links him to us, as does the Moore name. And this morning I found on electoral rolls
Mary Ann Carberry Morgan with her daughter Letitia Morgan Setches in South Melbourne in the 1930's. I have been unable to find her anywhere once her husband died, drowned in the Yarra.
Very appreciative.
Rodney53
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This death notice for Charles junior will maybe confirm that your John and Eustace are the same man.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/183474051
MORGAN. — Relatives and Friend of Miss Maud Smith and Mr.Eustace Morgan, Mr. and Mrs. W. Crane (Too-woomba), Mr. and- Mrs. F. Carmody (Townsville), Mrs. A. Freeman, and Mr. and Mrs. S. Setches and their Families, are invited to attend the Funeral of their deceased Brother .Brother-in-law and Uncle, Mr. Charles M. Morgan, to leave the Funeral
Chapel, 17 Peel Street, South' Brisbane, on Monday Morning at 11 o'clock ..........
Sue
ADDING
noting mother Mrs M MORGAN extends funeral invitation too and is in Melbourne.
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1914 3098 MORGAN Letitia Emily to SETCHES Stanley
Is this her death? ???
SETCHES Letitia Emily Roslyn father MOOR Charles mother Mary Alice (Power) aged 54. Born Melbourne, died Parkville 1950 772.
Jamjar
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22805196
Thinking this may be the death of Mary Ann Snr, as if I remember correctly there were other family members at Parkville:
1945 83 MORGAN Mary Ann father's name unknown mother's name unknown (unknown) Place of birth: BENDIGO, Place of death: PARKVILLE aged 85
Jamjar
Letitia's home address was 27 Asling Street West Preston.
She died at Royal Melbourne Hospital which is in Parkville.
Perhaps that was also the death place of the Mary Ann MORGAN given above.
Mary Ann MORGAN's husband Charles
Chas Morgan-
1900/9918
Parents MORGAN Owen Wynne, & Sophia POWELL
He is memorialized with his parents and some brothers and other family members at Melbourne General Cemetery. This does not mean automatically that he is buried there
Location of the MI
Religion c of E
Section O Grave number 24/25
Sue
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The tragic death of a man who appears to be the father of Eustace MORGAN.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222248579
Sue
Death of Charles Snr:
1900 9918 MORGAN Chas parents Morgan Owen Wynne and Sophia (Powell) Melb E aged 42
Siblings of Charles senior:
1840 12345 John Lewis
1841 12613 Owen Orr
1846 14646 Margaret Mary
1848 15690 Sarah Sophia
1850 16769 William
1852 27643 Letitia Conway
1855 10235 Unnamed male
1858 6012 Moore
1860 7219 Henry Barkley Adam
Deaths of siblings:
1865 3557 Emily Alicia aged 11
1887 7778 Owen Orr aged 45
Death notice:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164934822
1897 6562 Moore aged 39
Death and funeral notices: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9154425
1904 6219 William aged 54
Buried with John Lewis:
MORGAN William Williamstown Cemetery [W] Church of England WI-CE*D*8.5**1 Interment 17-4-1904
1911 14435 Margaret Mary WAYMONTH (mistranscribed) aged 68
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197390065
1912 3103 Henry Adam aged 51
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11643642
Bereavement notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197413538
1912 15774 John Lewis aged 72
Death and funeral notices:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article143279044 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10506308
Buried:
MORGAN John Lewis Williamstown Cemetery [W] Church of England WI-CE*D*8.5**1 Interment 7-10-1912
MORGAN Elizabeth Rose Williamstown Cemetery [W] Church of England WI-CE*D*8.5**1 Interment 1-8-1942
1918 4788 Letitia Conway aged 64
Buried:
St Kilda Cemetery Morgan Letitia Conway Date of Service: 3 April 1918 Age: 64
Church of England, Compartment B, Grave 673
1922 7522 Sarah Sophia OWEN aged 74
Buried with sons:
St Kilda Cemetery Owen Sarah Sophia Buried 20-7-1922
Church of England, Compartment B, Grave 673A
Moore Frederick Buried 1-4-1927
1927 7653 OWEN Moore Frederick parents OWEN Henry and Sarah Sophia (Morgan)
Henry Charles Buried 31-5-1935
1935 4288 OWEN Henry Charles parents OWEN Henry and Sarah Sophia (Morgan) aged 60
Their parents' deaths:
1879 11829 MORGAN Sophia parents Powell Thomas and Mary aged 61, place of birth Co.Wicklow
1886 2964 MORGAN Owen Wynne parents Moor and Sarah aged 72
Marriages:
1868 2449 MORGAN Margaret Mary to WAYMOUTH Bryant
* I think this Bryant had children from previous relationship:
1844 based on death age 75 in 1918 - 1918 9569 WAYMOUTH Josiah Henry parents Waymouth Bryant and Martha
1855 6384 WAYMOUTH Mary parents Bryant and Martha Phillips (Cadey)
1857 13802 WAYMOUTH Elizabeth parents Bryant and Martha (Eade)
Marriage of 'second daughter ' Sarah Fanny in 1864: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5745425
Only death for a Bryant Waymouth I can see:
1882 2971 WAYMOUTH Bryant parents Caleb Bryant and Carol (Coleridge)
Death and funeral notices: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11532383 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11532469
Buried with Martha:
St Kilda Cemetery Waymouth Bryant Buried 16-2-1882 Church of England, Compartment C, Grave 612
Waymouth Martha Buried 20-12-1872
Death of Martha née Phillips:
1872 10591 WAYMOUTH Martha Phillips father Eadie
Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5844764
1868 3624 MORGAN Sarah Sophia to OWEN Henry
1872 2320 MORGAN John Lewis to LOWING Mary Louisa
Death of wife: 1878 1561 MORGAN Mary Louisa father Lowing William aged 30
* John has a child with a Florence in 1893:
1893 7158 MORGAN Owen William father John Lewis and mother Florence (Abernethy)
Death of Owen in NSW:
12606/1936 MORGAN Owen William parents John Louis and Florence Ada SYDNEY
Death and funeral notices:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17265630
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17265614
Buried Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
Owen William Morgan 31-8-1936 ABB - Anglican FM BB, Position 465
Marriage of Florence in NSW:
7197/1916 CALLIDY Anthony to MORGAN Florence A NEWCASTLE
MORGAN Owen Orr to QUINLAN Ellen (from death registration) I can't find marriage.
Rodney, where have you found Henry's marriage to Alice Phelps and Owen's to Ellen Quinlan?
I think you may may have your Waymouth on your tree a tad confused. Here are the two Owen Waymouth deaths:
1871 256 WAYMOUTH Owen Lewis parents Bryant and Margaret Mary (Morgan) aged 13
1950 5493 WAYMOUTH Owen Lewis WAYMOUTH Unknown and Margaret Mary (Morgan) aged 75
You will find births and deaths for the children from the above marriages on VIC BDM.
Jamjar
Added: I've just read the wills of Bryant and Martha. Bryant's mentions four daughters and Josiah. Nothing about Margaret and sons. So, is there another Byant hiding somewhere. Margaret is a widow at time of death and in 1887 there is mention of a Margaret Waymouth, widow, last paragraph 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164930553
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Hi Rodney,
It is possible Mary Ann MORGAN is interred at Melbourne General Cemetery.
Perhaps you could contact them using email. Their records are not yet online ;D
https://mgc.smct.org.au/deceasedsearch/
Sue
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I am overwhelmed and very grateful for the many contributions. I am away from my desktop and the tiny mobile screen drives me mad so forgive my delay please. Good idea about Melb. cemetery and Bendigo also. Will ring both when home.
Re marriage of Owen Orr Morgan and Ellen Quinlan a reference to a Port Melb. marriage is on his death cert. My suspicion is no marriage at all. He was C. of E. and she was Catholic and after his death and burial in C.o.E area she took children and grandchildren to R.C. Church.
Again, thanks a million. More soon.
Rodney53
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Did you manage to find the immigration details? You say that Owen W and Sarah married Ireland in 1838 and John was born in Vic in 1840. I was thinking that it may be worth looking at the WESTMINSTER that arrived in Vic in December 1839.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228130556
I also can't see the marriage of William to Rebecca Cleland.
Jamjar
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The Westminster is mentioned in his obit. Will try Immigration Museum. Thanks, Jamjar.
William Morgan m. Rubenia Cleland at St Peters East Melb.
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The Westminster is mentioned in his obit. Will try Immigration Museum. Thanks, Jamjar.
William Morgan m. Rubenia Cleland at St Peters East Melb.
What evidence do you have that this is your William? A common name is William Morgan with no middle name and did he remarry?
Marriage:
1873 3837 MORGAN William to CLELAND Rubenia MORGAN
Death:
1878 1582 MORGAN Rubina parents Cleland Robert and Elizabeth (Cuthbert) aged 23
Death and funeral notices:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5922958
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article200550534
You have a few ancestors buried at Melbourne General.
Jamjar
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Many thanks, Jamjar. I have tried and failed to find Rubenia's death and burial. Her name does not appear on the cemetery's records of my Morgan ancestors. She may well be buried with her parents. This also explains her husband's burial with his brother. And his sister Letitia died in the house of his wife in Gardenvale. A second wife now looks likely.
Many many thanks.
P.S. Must check records when home. I seem to recall baptisms for a Rubenia and Rebecca Cleland at St Peter's East Melb., and on the same day.
Rodney53.
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Rodney,
Perhaps I have missed it, but where has the surname of Frances been located-WALL?
Here is a longshot. Maybe you already have this on file.
A man named Charles John MORGAN died July 1988. DOB 14/6/1919
He and his wife are interred Lilydale Cemetery.
A chap named Charles John MORGAN enlisted ww2 with John MORGAN as NOK. DOB 14/6/1919.His further details here-
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=544102
A man of this name and his wife lived in the Lilydale area as shown on Electoral Rolls.
The Victorian Birth index (from private source) shows the birth listed twice.
Birth
DEAN Charles John
Father-
Mother Frances HALL
Melb. W.
1919/13337
HALL, Charles John
Father-
Mother Frances HALL
Melb. W.
1919/13337
Is this at all a likely link?
Sue
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This is the death of Elizabeth Rose Morgan who is buried with John Lewis and brother William:
1942 8055 MORGAN Elizabeth Rose parents TREGURTHA John William Burgess and Sarah (Abrahams)
Place of birth: Hobart, TAS; Place of death BRIGHTON NORTH; aged 86
She was William's wife:
1892 2162 ELDER Elizth Rose to MORGAN Wm
Her first marriage:
1878 4023 TREGURTHA Bessie to ELDER Douglas
A daughter to William and Elizabeth:
1893 34360 MORGAN Bessie Rose parents William and Elizabe (Tregurtha)
Marriage of daughter:
1919 5394 MORGAN Bessie Rose to BROWN Walt Wesley
Death:
1988 4981 BROWN Bessie Rose parents MORGAN William and Elizabeth Rose (Tregurtha)
Place of birth: Port Melbourne; Place of death: Warracknabeal; aged 94
1969 26956 BROWN Walter Wesley parents BROWN William Stanley and Fanny (Phelps) Place of birth: Kadeena South Australia; Place of death: Brighton East; aged 80
Jamjar
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Following on from Sue's last post and her mention of military record for Ronald Moore Morgan.
There is an Obit in the Herald Sun, part of which is:
MORGAN. - Ronald Moore, passed away peacefully at home on Thursday Sept. 14, 2000, aged 79 years. Beloved husband of Ivy for 56 years, brother to Charlie (dec. ), Vern (dec. ).
MORGAN Ronald (Ron) Death notice 14-9-2000 Death 79 Herald Sun (Melbourne) 16-9-2000
There are notices for a possible brother Vernon:
MORGAN Vernon (Vern) Death notice 23-12-1987 Publication The Age (Melbourne) 23-12-1987
MORGAN Vernon Dudley Funeral notice 23-12-1987 Funeral The Age (Melbourne) 22-12-1987
MORGAN Vernon Dudley Probate notice 29-4-1988 Publication late of Chadstone The Age (Melbourne) 29-4-1988
Springvale Botanical Cemetery Morgan Vernon Dudley Cremated 23-12-1987
The cremated remains have been scattered
Jamjar
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Hi Sue. The surname WALL for Frances comes from a scribble in some handwritten notes from a distant family member. No records to confirm it yet. So the name is still to be confirmed. No other wife for Eustace found. John and Frances on electoral suggest given name is correct.
The two birth records you found raise interesting questions. Many thanks. The death notices are very helpful as well. Thanks.
Rodney53.
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Thanks once again Jamjar.
When I rang the cemetery about the two brothers, no mention of the wife being buried in the same grave. So these findings of Bessie Morgan are very new to me and very welcome.
Rodney53
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Marriage write up for Bessie Rose Morgan to Walt Wesley Brown: 3rd column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article146471887
The brother mentioned in the marriage notice?
1881 13343 ELDER Douglas Tregurtha parents Douglas and Elizabeth Rose (Tregurtha)
1949 4493 ELDER Douglas Tregurtha parents ELDER Douglas and Elizabeth Rose (Tegurtha)
Death and funeral notices: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22728938
ELDER Douglas T Fawkner Memorial Park Cremation 16-5-1949
Obit: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70706768
Jamjar
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Following on from Sue's post#37.
Is this the mother of Charles?
1912 3891 HALL Francis to DEAN Jas
Births:
1912 34435 DEAN Eunice Doreen Anna - death 1912 aged 3 months
1914 16705 DEAN Wm Jas - death 1914 aged 3 months
1915 879 DEAN Kath
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To be candid, I don't know. It certainly looks that way and that Charles is not born a Morgan. There is not yet a record with Frances Wall attached to fhe Morgan name.
Thanks jamjar and for the Bessie Morgan notices too.
Rodney53
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To be candid, I don't know. It certainly looks that way and that Charles is not born a Morgan. There is not yet a record with Frances Wall attached to fhe Morgan name.
Rodney53
None of us are certain of the above. Please bear in mind the name I am citing is HALL, not WALL (as you say, you have only seen it in hand written notes- the confusion would be easy)
Speculating -with a little logic applied-there was not a marriage between John MORGAN and Frances because she was still married to James DEAN.
His war service history is indexed at NAA and shows he was apparently on active service at the time of the conception of Charles John, thus, father not named on the birth record.
He was a market gardener of Narre Warren and Francis (sic) was his NOK.
The pair appear together on the Electoral Roll and I will type the details in a moment.
He died in 1954, after the death of John MORGAN, so there was not opportunity for a late marriage through widowhood for Frances.
Obituary James DEAN of NARRE WARREN 1954. To Springvale.
No wife mentioned but some children are correct for the recorded births.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/218508357
James -Official Discharged from the services in July / August 1919
Joined up May 1916
A welcome home in May 1919
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/218508357
Sue
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Electoral Roll, Victoria
1915 to 1924
Narre Warren
DEAN, James, farmer
DEAN, Frances, HD
1928
Narre Warren
DEAN, James. Labourer
We must not assume that Frances DEAN's name at that address means she was actually living there ::)
Sue
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Anyhow, to round of your query about 3 sons to John and Frances MORGAN.
Obviously the death certificate for John MORGAN would answer a lot of queries.
Up to you.
However, the death notice for Ronald which you mention you have read, states brother of Charles and Vern.
Vern would probably be Vernon Roland MORGAN who died in 1999 and is buried with his wife at Lilydale. he was a resident of Lilydale
This man is not to be confused with Verden/Verdun James DEAN a son from the possible marriage of Frances. He appears on the electoral roll with a woman of the surname in Heathmont, and is mentioned as a son in the obituary for James DEAN
Sue
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Many thanks Sue. This is far more compelling and ths name of Wall was both handwritten and with no supporting evidence/record. Hall seems much morely likely her name. Wall had been the only/best option when I began this thread. Thank you so much for your efforts and insights.
Rodney53.
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Hi Sue,
Just noticed your request for this information.
Death notice of Henry Morgan gives details of his marriage to Alice Phelps.
Hope this helps.
Rodney53
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1871 256 WAYMOUTH Owen Lewis parents Bryant and Margaret Mary (Morgan) aged 13
1950 5493 WAYMOUTH Owen Lewis WAYMOUTH Unknown and Margaret Mary (Morgan) aged 75
**********
I've just seen this contribution of yours through clearer eyes. Thanks for spotting this.
I am in touch with one of the Waymouth line and will ask her to clarify it.
Rodney53
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What evidence do you have that this is your William? A common name is William Morgan with no middle name and did he remarry?
Marriage:
1873 3837 MORGAN William to CLELAND Rubenia MORGAN
*********************
Hello Jamjar,
The church records have this William Morgan as son of Owen Morgan, so I'm pretty sure he is ours.
Rodney53
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Hi Sue,
Just noticed your request for this information.
Death notice of Henry Morgan gives details of his marriage to Alice Phelps.
Hope this helps.
Rodney53
No mention of an Alice Phelps in your attached notice, Rodney.
Jamjar
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Thanks, Jamjar ... my blunder. Wrong attachment.
This one has Alice Phelps as his wife.
It also mentions a son in his 20's ... can't find him anywhere in the records either.
Cheers.
Rodney53
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What is written next to Alice's name?
Jamjar
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This is the death of the daughter. Note mother's maiden name:
1888 2667 MORGAN Alice May parents Henry Adam and Alice (Hassell)
Jamjar
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Birth of the son. He was stepson of Henry Adam:
1884 17745 HASSELL Henry Herbert parents Henry Herbert and Alice (Phelps)
Jamjar
Added: A Henry Herbert Hassell aged 11 accidentally kills his mother in 1876, 3rd column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article170432222
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Thanks, Jamjar.
I'm afraid I can't decipher that other word next to Alice Phelps on Henry Morgan's death cert. either. Best guess is "Living" but I'm really not sure. It certainly does not line up with any of her names as cited anywhere else.
The death of daughter Alice is spot on, including mother's surname as Hassell, first husband's name. She was married twice. Maybe more, since so far I have failed to find a death record for her under Morgan.
I'm not sure the accidental shooting lines up with our Alice since the year of death is out of line.
It never occurred to me that the son Henry might not be a Morgan by birth; a recurring theme in this pursuit.
Your talent for finding information is staggering. Thanks a million.
Rodney53
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No, it wasn't Alice who was shot, it was Mary Ann Hassell, mother of Henry Hassell senior. The son of Mary, Henry Herbert Hassell (Hassall), died Maitland NSW 1929. There is an online tree for the family.
I can't find either of the two marriages for Alice - I'm thinking she wasn't married to Henry Hassell -nor her death. Also, can't find death of Henry Jnr.
Have looked all day and have run out of ideas. :-\
Jamjar
Added: this is the only death I could come up with in VIC
Death:
1939 13866 ROUSE Alice Maud parents PHELPS Robert Valentine and Eliza Martha (Puzey)
Birth:
1864 14856 PHELPS Alice Maud Robert Eliza (Puzey)
That's out as the marriage was in 1889:
1889 7327 ROUSE Thos to PHELPS Alice Maud
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Funeral notice for one Harry Herbert Hassell:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205977235
1939 3365 HASSELL Harry Herbert parents HASSELL Charlton William and Catherine (Unknown) Place of birth: London Place of death: Prahran Aged: 84
Jamjar
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Thanks, Jamjar,
Take a well earned break from it all. The Morgans are not a straightforward family to research.
I am very grateful for all your efforts. Far more than I could have expected.
Rodney53.
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Funeral notice for one Harry Herbert Hassell:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205977235
1939 3365 HASSELL Harry Herbert parents HASSELL Charlton William and Catherine (Unknown) Place of birth: London Place of death: Prahran Aged: 84
Jamjar
This man was the husband of "the late Alice"
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12116727
Sue
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Thanks, Sue. I have been struggling to find her death details.
Have come across some puzzling address on electoral rolls.
1919: Alice Morgan
1921: Bessie Rose Brown, newly married in 1919 Bessie Morgan (Bill Morgan's daughter)at the same address.
"Kadina" Bundeera Road Glen Huntly
No idea what to make of this. But all part of the story of the Morgans.
Rodney53
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The NSW Hassells can be excluded.
Marriage in SA: 1884 139/751 HASSEL Harry Herbert to PHELPS Alice ADELAIDE
Jamjar
Added: Harry's brother? Married in SA and is buried there:
1910 242/37 HASSELL Charlton William Wentworth SLATE Gertrude Sarah ADELAIDE
NORTH ROAD CEMETERY, Nailsworth:
CHARLTON WILLIAM WENTWORTH DIED 1939 AGE 87 GERTRUDE SARAH 1953
Harry 19 and Charlton 21 sailed to New York 1872 on the Plymouth Rock where they had intended to settle:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939V-5R95-3G?i=137&cc=1849782
On the 1861 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-L8JD
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Alice Morgan death and burial.
More questions than answers.
May be memorialised but not buried here.
Brighton cemetery.
Rodney53
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Deaths:
1984 25429 CARL Beverley Alison parents BROWN Walter Wesley and Leila Alison (Fletcher)
1969 26956 BROWN Walter Wesley parents BROWN William Stanley and Fanny (Phelps)
1967 25271 BROWN Leila Alison parents FLETCHER William George and Alice (Stringer)
Could someone have got the names wrong? Birth SA:
1889 434/21 BROWN Walter Wesley parents William Thomas BROWN and Annie Mary PHELPS
Jamjar
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It looks to me like Walter Brown and Bessie Morgan may well have divorced and he remarried, since Bessie well outlived him. Beverly Carl is his daughter by another woman/wife.
The 1969 death and 1889 birth notices are for the same person, it seems to me. Second name of father is different. Annie Phelps and Fanny Phelps one letter difference.
Alice Morgan was born Alice Phelps. Related somehow to Fanny but no idea how as yet.
Walter Brown was married to Bessie Morgan, Alice's niece by marriage.
Many thanks again, Jamjar,
Rodney53.
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Beverly could be a result of a fling, considering that it has 'Rose' as his wife on the headstone and not the mother of Beverly.
I too wondered about a Phelps connection.
The reason for putting Alice May Morgan on the plaque has me intrigued?
Jamjar
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Marriage, SA:
1883 137/236 BROWN William Thomas to PHELPS Fanny Mary at Daly
Fanny death and notice:
1891 196/213 BROWN Fanny Mary William Thomas BROWN (H) Daly
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article109087241
Jamjar
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Intrigued? You and me both.... :)
I do think the wife Rose may be Bessie Rose Morgan, in the early years at least .... and Lilian may be their daughter Bessie Rose Lilian Brown, as she appears on the rolls with her mother
Why is Alice with her niece's husband? Ashes only perhaps? And with such a time lag? I don't expect answers; rather am sharing my thoughts on it all.
I can't find on electoral rolls why Alice Morgan was at the Kadina house in 1917, and with whom. She has been an enigma for me all along. Bessie Morgan didn't marry until 1919, and was moving in after the wedding.
The Morgans are anything but straightforward. ::) Just when I think the puzzle is complete new pieces arrive. All good fun.
Cheers.
Rodney53
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I've seen on Ancestry during a Google search - I don't have access - that Fanny's father was William Newman Phelps. Can't find any other reference to his name locally, only Familysearch in the US.
Kadina is near to where Fanny died in SA.
Jamjar
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And from memory, she was married there.
Rodney53
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Have come across some puzzling address on electoral rolls.
1919: Alice Morgan
1921: Bessie Rose Brown, newly married in 1919 Bessie Morgan (Bill Morgan's daughter)at the same address.
"Kadina" Bundeera Road Glen Huntly
No idea what to make of this. But all part of the story of the Morgans.
Quite obvious that Alice was living with the BROWN's or perhaps it was vice versa.
Alice Morgan death and burial.
More questions than answers.
May be memorialised but not buried here.
Brighton cemetery.
Rodney53
Bit hard to follow the research on this thread without the names of the places some of the events took place. Perhaps if the event and detail were together it would help. Double row spacing does make it hard (for me) to follow :-X.
Probably not needed but this is the only death I can find for a person of this name in 1920
Death in Victoria - from my own resource
MORGAN Alice May
Parents unknown
At Glen Huntley 57 years 1920 Reg#1844
Buried at Brighton General Cemetery, North Rd Caulfield South, Vic
MORGAN Alice May 9 Feb 1920 57 years Ind*B*187
Possibly the death cert may have more identifying information.
No probate file at PROV for Alice May MORGAN.
Cando
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Thanks, Cando.
This is a complex set of connections to try to dissect then reassemble ... it's been a head-spinning exercise. Cause and effect has certainly been not always obvious.
Those death records of yours are consistent with what has come to light.
Many thanks.
Rodney53
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Rodney could you summarise the research on the thread. It seems to be unrelated at times.
Cando
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Cando,
Could you look at reply #63.
A marriage in SA.
Do you have any further information on it?
Sue
ADDING for your information as you are latecomer to the thread.
Alice PHELPS was married to Harry Herbert HASSELL in SA and had 2 children in Victoria.
Then seems to locate herself with Henry Adam MORGAN and use that surname.
Henry Adam MORGAN was a relative of an ancestor of Rodney, our OP.
At his death, a notice describes Harry Herbert HASSELL as the husband of Alice (deceased)
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Thanks Sue. Unfortunately SAGenealogy indexes are very limited with their information. From my resource.
HASSEL Harry Herbert 29 years Status Single Father Unrecorded HASSEL
PHELPS Alice 21 years Status Single Father William PHELPS
22 May 1881
At The Registry Office, Adelaide Ade 139/751
Details of her sister's marriage
BROWN William Thomas 30 years Status Single Father John BROWN
PHELPS Fanny Mary 19 years Status Single Father William Newman PHELPS
18 Oct 1883
At the Primitive Methodist, Kadina Dal 137/236
Cando
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Probably not needed but found this....
HASSELL Harry Herbert.
Death Melbourne, Victoria
The Old Colonists' Association: transcripts of residents' deaths
Date of birth: 21 Oct 1854; Date of admission: 1928
I'm still puzzled about the thread topic....
Cando
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Thanks, Cando.
This is a complex set of connections to try to dissect then reassemble ... it's been a head-spinning exercise. Cause and effect has certainly been not always obvious.
Those death records of yours are consistent with what has come to light.
Many thanks.
Rodney53
You mentioned that Alice wasn't buried at Brighton and I have shown you she was.
Alice Morgan was born Alice Phelps. Related somehow to Fanny but no idea how as yet.
Where and when was Alice born? It would appear they were sisters. I think the birth cert for Fanny needs to be sighted as it is possible that the name "Newman" was a mistranscription.
Cando
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I'm still puzzled about the thread topic....
Cando
The main essence of the topic, which is in the title of the topic, was explored and "dealt with" in the early stage of the conversation.
Rodney is, I think, also working on the larger picture of his family history, and the thread has meandered into some different corners and aspects.
It seems the chat has given him some useful and interesting explorations. ;D
Sue
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Thanks Sue...it certainly meandered.
Cando
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I wonder if this could be the birth in UK of Fanny's father?
PHELPS, WILLIAM NEWTON mmn CHAMBERS
GRO Reference: 1839 D Quarter in THE CHELTENHAM UNION Volume 11 Page 184
Jamjar
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Clutching at straws I know, but what do you think, Rodney?
Regarding land Kadina, formerly owned by the deceased William Phelps. 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article159531044
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article92276151
Wife of deceased William married Amos Richards in 1866:
1866 67/327 RICHARDS Amos PHILPS Elizabeth Adelaide
Marriage notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article110103044
They have a son in 1876, note the middle name:
1876 164/137 RICHARDS Walter Newman Amos RICHARDS and Elizabeth DAVIS Daly
Son is sent to Industrial School and Amos is a widower, with 3 children at home:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article110507312
Elizabeth's death: 1881 109/79 RICHARDS Elizabeth Amos RICHARDS (H) Daly
I can't see William's death, but he's alive November 1864, 2nd last column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article159527397
A William and Elizabeth Phelps arriving SA August 9 1959 on the ESCORT, 1st column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1195956
Jamjar
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Hello Cando,
The main thread of this topic was more obscure than many, not helped at all by the fact that there was a change in name use on electoral rolls by one key person of interest (Eustace John Rupert Morgan altered his enrolment name some how to John Morgan and the other was based on no more than a scribbled name on an old document (Frances Wall, which turns out to be Hall).
In trying to clarify this, contributions went to the children of this pair, and then meandered to related Morgans. I had from the start a fair overview of the Morgans and along the way contributors have hit upon research which has shed light on some other Morgan connections, enlightening if astray from the original question. I am very grateful for the new information provided by these meanderings, unanticipated and helpful outcomes.
Rodney53
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Thank you Rodney. The presentation was rather hard to follow but now I see some of the posts have been edited and additional information added.
Regarding Jamjar's latest post. I had explored this path including the death and remarriage of William PHELP's first wife, Elizabeth Ann nee DAVIS. The shipping record and the first marriage have William's second given name as Albert. I dismissed this Wm with second given name Albert however according to a SA birth registrations it appears his name was William Albert Newton PHELPS
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Marriages Jun 1859
DAVIS Elizabeth Stroud 6a/529
PHELPS William Albert Stroud 6a/529
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/escort1859.shtml
PHELPS William Albert 20, Gardener Elizabeth [DAVIS] Stroud, Gloucester
From Biographical Index of South Australians Information gleaned from public records eg shipping, bdm's, etc as well as submitted information from descendants. The information is not always accurate and needs further research.
PHELPS William born c1839 GLS ENG
Arrived on the ESCORT 1859
Occupation Gardener
Religion Church of England
Married by 1859 Elizabeth born c1840
PHELPS William
Arrived by 1863
Occupation Painter
Lived Kadina Religion Church of England
Married Elizabeth
Children Elizabeth Alice 1863-.
Births in SA - from my resource.
PHELPS Francis William
18 Mar 1861
Father William PHELPS Mother Elizabeth DAVIS
At Kapunda Kap 22/181 [Died aged 10 months 14 Jan 1862 at Kadina Ade 9/342]
Mistranscribed surname.
PHILLIPS Mary Fanny
4 Nov 1864
Father William Albert Newton PHILLIPS Mother Elizabeth DAVIS
At Kapunda Kap 35/233
There are many birth registrations missing in SA and not all were due to the failure of the parents to register the births of their children. Another subject in itself and a book has been written about bdm in SA.
I think this is Wm's death.
PHILLPS William 25 years Status not recorded Relative not recorded
8 Dec 1864
Residence Kapunda Death Place Kapunda Kap 19/240
Second marriage with more info
RICHARDS Amos 28 years Status not recorded Father James RICHARDS
PHILPS Elizabeth 25 years Status Widow Father Thomas DAVIS
25 Jun 1866
At the residence of Mrs Philps, Kadina Ade 67/327
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article39251116
South Australian Register 9 Jun 1871
HITT V. RICHARDS AND OTHERS.
Mr. Palmer for the plaintiff ; Mr. Cox for Richards and wife; and Mr. Way for infant defendants.
This was a suit by the plaintiff as equitable mortgagee by transfer of an allotment of land
in Kadina, formerly the property of William Phelps, deceased, intestate. The widow had
married Amos Richards, and the other defendants were two children of the intestate. The bill prayed that accounts might be taken of what was due, and defendants decreed to pay the same, with costs of suit, or in default the property sold.
Two children of the intestate - Mary Fanny and Alice May?
Cando
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http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article201131685
In Memoriam
MORGAN— In loving remembrance of my dearly beloved husband, Henry Adam Morgan, who died on the 2nd. January, 1912 at 163 Evans-street, Port Melbourne.
Sadly missed.
—Inserted by his loving wife, son and nephews, Walter and Syd. Brown.
MORGAN— In sad and loving memory of my dear brother Henry, who died at Evans-street, Port Melbourne, 2nd January, 1912.
In memory he still lives.
—Inserted by his loving sister Letitia.
Wouldn't the son be Alice's son, Henry Herbert HASSELL born 1884 Hotham, Vic but noted as Henry, 27 son of Henry Adam MORGAN on his 1912 death certificate. Henry HASSELL and Alice PHELPS also had a dau Alice and she is mentioned as deceased on Henry MORGAN's death certificate.
I also noticed that Henry Adam MORGAN was, according to his death certificate, married to Alice PHELPS at the age of 23 ie c1883 as he was born 1860. Alice married Henry Herbert HASSELL in 1883 ::).
Cando
Edited to amend dates.
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Thanks, Cando.
Yes, name changes, mis-spellings and deliberate misrepresentations all add to the ambiguities.
I'm not at all sure that Henry Morgan and Alice Phelps were married. There is an absence of records for Morgan marriages and I wonder whether the situation was not formalised.
I am also perplexed that the son Henry mentioned on Henry Morgan's death cert. does not seem to appear of electoral rolls even though both "parents" register.
Much appreciated.
Rodney53
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Thanks, jamjar.
Just noticed the death notice of Fanny Thomas. And the court case over the land in Kadina.
Rodney53
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Thanks, Cando.
Yes, name changes, mis-spellings and deliberate misrepresentations all add to the ambiguities.
I'm not at all sure that Henry Morgan and Alice Phelps were married. There is an absence of records for Morgan marriages and I wonder whether the situation was not formalised.
I am also perplexed that the son Henry mentioned on Henry Morgan's death cert. does not seem to appear of electoral rolls even though both "parents" register.
Much appreciated.
Rodney53
Hi Rodney,
Re a marriage between MORGAN and PHELPS.
If you read back through your large number of replies ;D you will see the death notice for henry Herbert HASSELL linked.
In 1930's
"Husband of the late Alice"
There was no Morgan PHELPS marriage and through his death notice, there was a wish to make that perfectly clear.
Interesting I think, that it does not also does not say "and father of ....... Alice May (dec) and Henry (jnr)"
Re Harry (jnr) not being registered to vote.
He may well have used the surname HASSEL by the age off 21 years. His choice after all.
There are some by that name registered to vote including a chap in Western Australia.
Sue