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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: curlytop2 on Thursday 07 September 17 07:20 BST (UK)
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Robert Harold Williams senior b ,1873 (guesstimate) .First wife Margaret ? , possibly Williams as well but can't prove anything. Margaret and Robert had 2 boys , my grandfather Robert Harold junior , born 1894(but marriage cert shows his name as Harold only ) , and his brother Hugh (sp?) born about 2 years later and who was killed in France WW1 . I have found several potential Hughes but nothing confirmed.
In 1917 Pontypridd, RH senior married his second wife Gladys Jenkins b abt 1896 , a friend of my grandmother's and the same age , causing a little family friction . They had 2 children Roy b1920 and Melba b1924 , both born in Pontrpridd .
Robert junior and his wife Mary came to Australia in 1925/1926 , and I'm pretty sure that the last address in Wales for them was Caerau , Maesteg .
My problem is I want to go back further than RH senior and have been unable to do so to date with any certainty beyond the birth date of RH junior and marriage date to Gladys . Have applied for two birth certificates now that matched up names , initials and year dates but neither was correct .
If anyone has a hint here I would be very grateful .
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Have you tried searching the GRO index which gives mothers maiden names on birth registrations for this period
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
You will need to register but it is free
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Have you found your grandfather and his parents in the census? If so, can you post details
My problem is I want to go back further than RH senior and have been unable to do so to date with any certainty beyond the birth date of RH junior and marriage date to Gladys
Have you got his second marriage certificate, which should help?
June 1917 Pontypridd 11a 1107
Jenkins, Gladys
Williams, Robert
It's possible that you might find one or both of them in the 1939 Register.
Is this military record, with digital images, relating to your Robert Harold Williams?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kod/
Which says that he was born 13 April 1894, Cardiff
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Certificate of marriage to second wife no help as to name of first wife . I may be doing something wrong but have been unable to find his first family on census lists . On 1939 register I thought I had struck paydirt but the difference in birth years between Robert and Gladys was 2 instead of about 20 . He was old enough to be her father . Also the military records I have found for junior give no information about his mother .
Thank you for your interest .
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Do you have RH Jnr death cert in Australia? I think it gives names of parents and DOB, but I may be mistaken.
Would help to narrow possible birthday.
Which birthcerts have you obtained, so can rule out?
Cas
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Just checking - if you don't have Robert snr's marriage certificate or Robert jnr's birth certificate, what evidence do yo have for Margaret being the wife/mother's forename?
What was Robert snr's occupation on his marriage to Gladys? May help find him on census.
Josey
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Have you found your grandfather and his parents in the census? If so, can you post details
My problem is I want to go back further than RH senior and have been unable to do so to date with any certainty beyond the birth date of RH junior and marriage date to Gladys
Have you got his second marriage certificate, which should help?
June 1917 Pontypridd 11a 1107
Jenkins, Gladys
Williams, Robert
It's possible that you might find one or both of them in the 1939 Register.
Is this military record, with digital images, relating to your Robert Harold Williams?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kod/
Which says that he was born 13 April 1894, Cardiff
The link to NAA timed out. Try this one:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=5566254
Jamjar
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Do you have his death cert?
22646/1952 WILLIAMS Robert Harold parents ROBERT HAROLD and MARGARET NEWCASTLE
Jamjar
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Thanks for military record Jamjar , I have those already . It's his mother's name that is the problem And death certificate as well. But thank you .
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Which birthcerts have you obtained, so can rule out?
What was Robert snr's occupation on his marriage to Gladys? May help find him on census.
It might also give his age.
All these points would help....
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It's his mother's name that is the problem And death certificate as well. But thank you.
What is the problem with the death certificate?
NSW certs include mother's maiden name, assuming the informant knew it, of course.
Jamjar
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Jamjar = Could be that curlytop2 is saying they have the 'death certificate as well', it's a bit ambiguous.
Curlytop2 - do you think that Newcastle was NOT mother's maiden name?. Crossed out as wrong interpretation of death certificate info, sorry.
Hope you can answer the questions we've asked as all will help tie down the family & hopefully get more pointers & proof of mother's maiden name.
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Josey, ambiguous yes.
NEWCASTLE is the place of death registration. Robert lived in the area.
Jamjar
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Whoops - my mistake :-[
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Just for interest:
Robert's funeral notice, 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article133557457
Jamjar
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And maybe for the back burner just because the name fits for Robert snr:
North Wales Chronicle 18 Feb 1888:
Robert Harold Williams, son of the late Robert E Williams solicitor Rhyl....passed final [legal] exams with honours for admission to the roll of solicitors in the Supreme Court...articled to Albert Saunders of Stocks, Saunders & Stocks, London.
This Robert Harold presumably born ca 1863 ??? I don't know how long legal training took then.
Ah no, I found this RHW in 1901 unmarried solicitor & 1911 married solicitor both in London.
ADDED: Another try for the back burner ;D
R. Harold Williams aged 16 grandson RG11; Piece: 5526; Folio: 34; Page: 1
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Robert Jnr was a miner, so possible father was also.
I wonder if you find Mary Thomas his wife on a census, Robert might be nearby. Mary's brother was William Thomas. He and Robert are buried together.
William Thomas born 1900.
Jamjar
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In 1917 Pontypridd, RH senior married his second wife Gladys Jenkins b abt 1896 , a friend of my grandmother's and the same age , causing a little family friction . They had 2 children Roy b1920 and Melba b1924 , both born in Pontrpridd .
If Melba died unmarried prior to 1991 (and so included on the 1939 Register) then you will find her and Gladys together using the free search.
Gladys C C Williams 1898 Rhondda U.D. Glamorganshire
Melba E Williams 1924 Rhondda U.D. Glamorganshire
Gladys may have been Gladys Cecilia C JENKINS born 1898 Pontypridd.
Debra :)
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Robert Jnr and Mary Thomas marriage, I think:
Dec 1911 Carnarvon 11b 772
Robert H Williams and Mary Thomas
Jamjar
Added: Maybe not, as if correct on the 1911 census she would have been 14/15 at time of marriage.
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my grandfather Robert Harold junior , born 1894 (but marriage cert shows his name as Harold only)
The marriage - of Harold Williams - is the place to start I think.
Don't ask me if this is the right one!
June 1919 Pontypridd 11a 1585
Thomas, Mary
Williams, Harold
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JENKINS, GLADYS CECELIA CONSTANCE
Mother's maiden name: BAKER
GRO Reference: 1898 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 510
1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW6R-MXM
Debra :)
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Parents of Mary Thomas: John and Avina
Brothers death:
2868/1936 THOMAS William parents JOHN and AVINA NEWCASTLE
Census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXS-7CF
Jamjar
Added: Death: 55096/1974 WILLIAMS Mary parents JOHN and AVRINE
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Aside from being complicated with such a common surname the inconsistencies re. Christian names aren't helping.
Robert senior married Gladys Jenkins as plain Robert - by 1939 Gladys is a widow so he died between 1924 and 1939 and, once again, there is no death entry for a Robert H. in this timeframe so presumably his death registered as plain Robert too.
I think that Melba E Williams married a Michael Skorka in 1945 Gloucester - in 1946 she is living in London (electoral rolls) and in 1949 she and husband are living in Fort William, Ontario and so I'm guessing he was a Canadian serviceman.
However, the Robert Harold Williams b.1894 who died 17/2/1969 Gosford, NSW shows in Australian Military records for WW2 that he was born 13/4/1894 Cardiff but goes on to state Next of Kin R. Williams (presumably father) but his father was deceased by 1939 and surely his next of kin would have been his wife. Doesn't seem to make sense. Plus said Robert Harold Williams had a warrant issued for his arrest by the Paddington Bench (Redfern), NSW (9/7/1913 Australian Police Gazette, NSW) charged with committing a breach of the Defence Act (failing to attend a compulsory drill) aged 18. My point being that this RHW was already in NSW in 1913, in army there, so surely can't be the right man (or am I missing something here).
Annette
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am I missing something here
A lot seems to be missing, it is not adding up at all.
I think the next of kin is wife, Mrs R H Williams
Her husband was dead by 1953 according to the army records
At the moment the earliest sighting of this man seems to be his marriage to Mary Thomas. Which is why the full details from the certificate would be helpful.
John
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Good detective work everyone!!
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Thank you everyone for your time and effort , I had no idea my post would attract such attention , I'm a little overwhelmed. I will try to address all replies in the following :
I have no b/cert for RH snr as I have not enough evidence to apply
I have no b/c for RH jnr although I know all the relevant information but cannot pinpoint it on records , have tried 2x
both were miners as were most of the males in my family , no professionals at all
have transcript only of marriage RH snr to Gladys Jenkins 1917 , Pontypridd
Re my comment re death cert for RH jnr : don't know what happened with my typing there Jamjar , but I think I have posted info that his mother's name is stated as Margaret Williams and I don't know if our family provided information would have been reliable , my g marriagerandparents never spoke about their family back in Wales. There are several possibilities for a Margaret Williams as wife and with so many Williams's around that would be quite possible .
I do have relevant documentation for RH jnr and Mary Thomas from the time of their marriage in 1919 Pontypridd , military record , addresses etc in Australia , I knew these people very well .
Our Gladys is Gladys A Jenkins 1896 , Pontypridd
jonw65 :: I also think the place to start , is the marriage of RH jnr and Mary , and your information is correct , but the certificate doesn't give me any info that I can use that I didn't already know . Gladys Williams was a witness to the marriage by the way .
I will add another post
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continuing the saga :
Annette , your info re Melba is correct , but our RH jnr came to Australia in 1925 as a soldier settler.
I think you may have two different RHWs , there is a number of them in Australia too !
The first one you mention IS my grandfather RHjnr and on his Service Record it does cite R Williams , his father as NOK , but on his Mobilisation Enrolment form it cites his wife.I can also match up addresses and army numbers as well as names to be sure .Your second military RHW was not my grandfather , as you concluded.
From verbal family information now unable to be verified , and guesswork :
Margaret Williams might have died about 1906 as RHjnr was ABOUT 12 yo when she died
RH snr might have been born about 1873-4 as the average marrying age for men seems to be about 20 yo.
Once again thank you everyone .
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However, the Robert Harold Williams b.1894 who died 17/2/1969 Gosford, NSW shows in Australian Military records for WW2 that he was born 13/4/1894 Cardiff but goes on to state Next of Kin R. Williams (presumably father) but his father was deceased by 1939 and surely his next of kin would have been his wife.
I think the next of kin is wife, Mrs R H Williams
Her husband was dead by 1953 according to the army records
Details of his funeral notice and death registration were posted earlier.
curlytop2, do you have the actual marriage certificate for Robert/Harold WILLIAMS and Mary THOMAS? What is his occupation and address and the stated name of his father and his occupation? Witness names?
Never rely on death certificates to give accurate information.
Debra :)
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curtlytop2 - the mother of Melba E. Williams was, as already mentioned, a Gladys C C Williams born 1898 per the 1939 Register so not a Gladys A. born 1896 Pontypridd. Again, as already stated, she was Gladys Cecilia Constance Jenkins born 1898 Pontypridd.
Her death is registered as Gladys C C Williams bc.1899 died Mar.qtr.1940 Pontypridd.
Now, the sad fact is that there was no Robert Harold Williams born 1894 in Cardiff (or indeed anywhere else). Nor is there any trace of a Robert or Harold (or any variation thereof) Williams bc.1894 Cardiff that match up with what is given as known on the 2 census' after his birth. So it is all very strange - perhaps his birth wasn't registered for some reason but that wouldn't account for his absence on census.
However, since you state you know his widowed father Robert married Gladys Jenkins 1917 Pontypridd and that you have a transcript of the marriage details can you please tell us all the exact details that were on the certificate? The information on this certificate is the only real 'lead' there is at the moment (bearing in mind no RHW birth entry 1894, no sighting on census and only instance of his mother being a Margaret is on his death certificate).
You said earlier that RHW had a brother Hugh who was a few years younger and who was killed in WW1? When did he die as there various possibilities with this name?
Annette
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Certificate of marriage to second wife no help as to name of first wife.
No, but it will give other important information like his age, address, occupation, and witness names.
Debra :)
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here I go again .
Dundee : I do not rely on death certs which is why I don't readily accept out of hand that the wife's name is Margaret WILLIAMS. I do have the marriage cert of RHjnr and Mary and I am pretty sure you know most of it : married 1919 Pontypridd ; father Robert a collier ; witness Gladys Williams and Emma Thomas , Mary's sister ;ages 26 and 23 ; RH's address Bryn Villa , Gy....Ar.... is all I can read , Mary from Baptist Sq , Blaenllechau .
Annette7 : I have not searched 39 Register for Melba . All my records for her marriage , life in Canada etc agree with your findings and I know they are correct as my mother corresponded with her and I have family photographs and handwritten cards . I will apply for a marriage certificate for Gladys to confirm things , which takes about 6 weeks to Australia . And I'm sorry , I did use the wrong word , I do not have a transcript for Gladys' marriage , only the Marriage Index 1916-2005 , otherwise I would have passed on the information.
I have been trying to solve this problem on and off for a couple of years . I was thinking that maybe the best thing might be for some local research .
I am pretty sure of the name Margaret . My sister is called after her .
As for Hugh I have no information other than the little I have already passed on , and yes I have searched census records etc for a likely family , also war records but there are too many Hughs however it is spelled, coupled with Williams . I'm not saying the information is definitely not there , but that I have not found it .
Mary
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Details of his funeral notice and death registration were posted earlier.
I know. That's why I didn't repeat them. I was discussing his army record.
You left out.....
At the moment the earliest sighting of this man seems to be his marriage to Mary Thomas. Which is why the full details from the certificate would be helpful
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curlytop2 - please post the details when you receive the marriage certificate and we can continue to try and help you.
Annette
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I had no idea my post would attract such attention
;D ;D we rootschatters love a challenge and are very keen to help get to the bottom of your RHW & his mother. Thanks for all the details. You have obviously already researched a lot.
I agree with the last few posts. Our lateral thinking & investigating what might appear slightly irrelevant side 'actors' in the 'performance' is out of experience that, as others have said, they can reveal details which can lead to the 'main act'. Even negative information can be helpful. We'd certainly be grateful for the details of the 2 Hugh Williams' birth certificates you have obtained so that they can be eliminated.
Josey
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The Australian army record says that he had been a Gunner in the Royal Field Artillery, number 69378
On Image 7
Incidentally, d-o-b on that is 30 April (1896!)
Says served in France, Egypt, Palestine (first image)
So, he should be on the medal rolls
There is a medal index card for Harold Williams, Gnr, RFA, 69378
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kop/
Says 1914 Star retd (deserter)
Edit - and ditto the other two!
John
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Annette I will post details when I receive cert.
Military papers make no reference to mother, that goes for both world wars and he is on the medal rolls . We framed all his medals several years ago.
Josey if I told you I had 2 certs for Hugh Williams I was delusional , I have no concrete information for Hugh . I did have 2 incorrect certs for Robert Harold b1894 (it was common knowledge he changed his birth date to enlist) but in a cleanup threw them out without noting reg numbers.
Thank you everybody , I appreciate both your experience and willingness to help.
Mary
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The actual 1914 Star roll for the Royal Field Artillery
69378 Gunner H Williams
dis-embarkation 19-8-14
Transf'd ASC 19-1-18
Star retd Forfeits Deserted 30-6-19
Noted also on the RFA British/Victory medal rolls
All his medals were forfeited.
Sheffield Daily Telegraph, 1 February 1915
Reported from the Base, under date 7th December, 1914
Wounded
Williams (69378) Gnr. H., R.F.A.
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He appears on electoral registers in Newcastle
i.e. 1930
sub division of Lambton
Williams, Harold Robert, Lambton road, New Lambton, miner
and
Williams, Mary, Lambton road, New Lambton, home duties
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I have not searched 39 Register for Melba . All my records for her marriage , life in Canada etc agree with your findings
It's interesting that she is not redacted on the 1939 Register (as we can see from the free index!) since she was born in 1924, and apparently later went to Canada. Has someone had her record opened?
No indication of a name change after marriage apparently.
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So, to date, all early sightings have him as Harold Williams - WW1, marriage
Pre WW2 electoral registers have him as Harold Robert Williams
Switches his names around!
Father on marriage is Robert Williams, not Robert Harold
and the possible father, Robert Williams, married Gladys Jenkins in 1917. And presumably died before 1939.
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Brothers death:
2868/1936 THOMAS William parents JOHN and AVINA NEWCASTLE
Died in an accident in Lambton Road
Newcastle Morning Herald and Miners' Advocate, 30 January 1936
"Cyclist Killed"
Identified by brother in law RT Williams
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kor/
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details of the 2 Hugh Williams' birth certificates you have obtained so that they can be eliminated.
Josey if I told you I had 2 certs for Hugh Williams I was delusional , I have no concrete information for Hugh
Sorry, Mary, you never said that; I misread the first post :-[
Think I need a wet towel around my head ;D
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Robert junior and his wife Mary came to Australia in 1925/1926 , and I'm pretty sure that the last address in Wales for them was Caerau , Maesteg .
On the Sophocles, departing London, 29th January 1926, bound for Australia
Williams Mrs Mary, H Wife, 29
Williams Avrina, 4
(Avrina transcribed Louisa on ancestry, and Adrina on FindMyPast)
Address ? 27 Dampraig Ter (probably nothing like it!)
Nr Porth Glam
Birth
June 1921 Bridgend 11a 2020
Williams, Avrina M.
mother Thomas
From her marriage in Australia, that M is for Margaret
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Possibility on the Orama, departing London 7 March 1925, bound for Australia
Mr. R. Williams, 46 Gelli St., Caerau, Bridgend, Glam.
occupation Miner, age 30
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Robert junior and his wife Mary came to Australia in 1925/1926 , and I'm pretty sure that the last address in Wales for them was Caerau , Maesteg .
On the Sophocles, departing London, 29th January 1926, bound for Australia
Williams Mrs Mary, H Wife, 29
Williams Avrina, 4
(Avrina transcribed Louisa on ancestry, and Adrina on FindMyPast)
Address ? 27 Dampraig Ter (probably nothing like it!)
Nr Porth Glam
Birth
June 1921 Bridgend 11a 2020
Williams, Avrina M.
mother Thomas
From her marriage in Australia, that M is for Margaret
If it helps..Looks like Danygraig to me there is one near Porth. (Trebanog area)
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If it helps...
It all helps! Thank you.
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JONW65 : no we didn't frame all his medals but we did have the original ribbons for those that were "missing" and we were content with that . Also Robert snr is the definite father not just the possible father of RH jnr . He and his wife Gladys were spoken about in the family , she was my grandmother's best friend .
There is a number of interesting variations of the name "Avriina" . It is a family name as is Margaret .
My grandfather came to Australia as a soldier settler to Western Australia (I have the documentation) as a single man although he was already married , and his wife and daughter came the following year . Everybody, I do have their Australian history as well as for those relatives who came before and after them. I cannot post all the information I have .
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Well, couldn't Robert and Margaret have married later?
Looking for Harold rather than Robert or a combination of the names.
And could he have been a couple of years older?
1901 possibility in Cardiff, Harold Williams, 8, with mother Margaret.
piece 4982 folio 123 page 35
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSMC-94T
If this chap was illegitimate, and whether he is relevant to this query or not, this might be the birth registration
June 1892 Cardiff 11a 417
Williams, Harold
mother —
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My grandfather came to Australia as a soldier settler to Western Australia (I have the documentation)
I think he could have been a regular, judging from his entry date in WW1 and what I looked up re the RFA.
But I'm not a military expert.
From the limited info available, I've tried to find out what I can to aid in the hunt for Robert Harold Williams.
Good luck in your search for your ancestor!
John
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John , I have tried searching ( for both of them) Harold , Robert , Robert Harold , Harold Robert , even BOb but to date no luck . I really don't think legitimacy is an issue , my grandmother's family knew them well and when HR jnr's mother Margaret died he did live with my grandmother's ( Mary) family .
Thank you for your input . If by any chance I come across anything relevant I will post it .
Mary
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....when HR jnr's mother Margaret died he did live with my grandmother's ( Mary) family .
He was not with Mary's family by 1911 and it is difficult to find anyone who fits the description in the area.
I did have 2 incorrect certs for Robert Harold b1894 (it was common knowledge he changed his birth date to enlist)
I'm not sure what you mean here. A birth year of 1894-1896 would have made him old enough in 1914 or do you think he was even younger? You haven't said how old he claimed to be when he married.
His age was irrelevant in WW2 as he enlisted in 1939 for home service with the CMF and the upper age was 60 years. When he was transferred to the AIF in 1943 it would have been pointless to change the birth year from 1894 to 1896 as the upper age for soldiers was 40, but for officers and those on special assignment the age limit was discretionary. I think the '1896' was just a mistake as his age is correct for an April 1894 birth - aged 48 in Feb 1943.
For future reference, you can apply for a birth cert with just the child's name, registration district and year, add the father's name to the form but do not give a reference number (just click on 'no' in the part that asks if you have the number). If they cannot find a birth which matches the child and father's name in your designated year plus one year either side then you will get a 'no result' and will not be charged.
Instructions are here under "If I don’t have the index reference number what will happen?"
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#OrderingCertificates
Debra :)
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Dundee - whilst all you say is correct the problem is that the family believe the 13/4/1894 birthdate (which he used when in the army and clearly for the rest of his life) is believed to be incorrect as it was 'common knowledge that he changed his birthdate to enlist'. So there is no point asking the GRO to do a search when the correct birth year is not known!
Annette
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Dundee : It is all extremely confusing to say the least .
I did previously post the age when he married , 26 , and his stated and celebrated birth date is 13th April , so he turned 26 one month before their marriage in May , 1919.
As to how long he actually lived with the Thomas family I cannot say , I only know that he did . By 1911 Robert would have been about 17 , working on a birth year of 1894 ,and as schooling was not a prolonged affair , he would have been working by then and could have been living in a rented room , or even back home with his father , I simply don't know and all possible family sources are gone. As the Thomas family still had 6 offspring at home in 1911 accommodation would have been pretty tight.