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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Stephen Collicoat on Sunday 10 September 17 04:58 BST (UK)
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Can anyone assist me? I am seeking any details on my grandmother, Ada Sullivan in the years between 1874 when she was born and December 5, 1891 when she married Joseph Job Downes in the Lutheran parsonage in Adelaide. I believe that Ada was brought up as a baby or child with her aunt, Mary Sullivan in Grote Street, Kent Town. Mary was a widow and police searcher. If there is any census of those individual family members living in Grote Street during that 17 year period, it may confirm Ada was living there. I believe her birth mother was really Mary Haylock of Carisbrook who agreed to the informal adoption of her daughter. Although Ada listed Mary Sullivan's husband, Michael as her father, he had died back in 1866.
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Where have you got her birth details from, Stephen?
Jamjar
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What does this mean 'police searcher'?
Jamjar
Added:
Did you mean the Michael was a 'Police Sergeant' at time of death, 2nd last column?
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article207679845
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Was Mary HAYLOCK a married name?
What was Mary Sullivan's maiden name?
Jamjar
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Age possibly sourced from this marriage registration.
DOWNS Joseph 28 years Status Single Father Thomas DOWNS
SULLIVAN Ada 16 years Status Single Father Michael SULLIVAN
5 Dec1891
At the Lutheran Parsonage Adelaide Ade 170/674
Cando
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Only parts of the 1841 census survive for South Australia.
Cando
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/39266020 6 December 1872 SA Register
APPOINTMENT IN POLICE FORCE.
Metropolitan Police— December 1, 1872. To be Female Searcher— Mary Sullivan, vice Ann Etheridge, resigned.
JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/39266020 6 December 1872 SA Register
APPOINTMENT IN POLICE FORCE.
Metropolitan Police— December 1, 1872. To be Female Searcher— Mary Sullivan, vice Ann Etheridge, resigned.
JM
Curious indeed, JM.
Not relevant I know, but Stephen how do you know it is the same Mary as was married to Michael. You'd think she'd have her hands full with 7 young children - did Ada make 8 - to care for.
Jamjar
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Mary's obit says that Michael SULLIVAN died in 1886, not 1866.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208454898
What is a police searcher?
Debra :)
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A number of online trees have Ada's birth date at 15 Dec 1874 and 15 Dec 1875 and if she was born on either of those dates then her given name was not registered as Ada. I would be interested in your thoughts how Ada was the dau of Mary HAYLOCK of Carisbrook.
Cando
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Mary's obit says that Michael SULLIVAN died in 1886, not 1866.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208454898
What is a police searcher?
Debra :)
There is no death registered in South Australia for a Michael SULLIVAN in 1886.
I note that there were no births registered to Michael SULLIVAN and Mary COONAN post 1865. The Michael SULLIVAN who died in 1866 was 54 years of age.
Cando
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Michael did die in 1866.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/207679845
Debra :)
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Ada died in 1945 in Victoria and according to the Vic BDM website, her father was Thomas and she was born in Adelaide, South Australia.
Cando
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Female police searcher .... seems from reading through Trove that it is the female responsible to 'frisk' female offenders to enable the policemen to determine the charges and to prepare the list of property found on the female offender.
;D
JM
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I am thinking there's more than ONE female in Adelaide in the 1870s named Mary Sullivan. There's the female searcher; there's the widow with a dray used as a taxi, driven by her son John, and there's Mary O'Sullivan.
JM
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Female police searcher .... seems from reading through Trove that it is the female responsible to 'frisk' female offenders to enable the policemen to determine the charges and to prepare the list of property found on the female offender.
;D
JM
Thank you, I never even thought of that.
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:) I didn't know either, and in searching trove for Mary Sullivan it just fell into place particularly one article detailing her search of the prisoner name (I think) Ann
On another thread recently one of the regulars on this board wrote about learning something new everyday.
I hope my guess is accurate ... it makes good sense to me. :) and so I learnt something new today, and don't have a clue how to unlearn it if some-else finds a different definition... ::) :-X
JM
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;D :) :)
Mary Sullivan, female searcher, said she searched prisoner and found purse produced, containing-13s.6d. and a," coin," a bank book, and a pocket-handkerchief.'
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/207713541 31 Jan 1874
JM
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Thanks to all who helped me in this search.
It seems clear that Ada left no record of her first 17 years on earth, living in Kent Town, South Australia. The hope that there may have been a household census of the Sullivan family living in Grote Street hasn't worked out. This would have given me hard evidence to support my theory as to why on her Marriage Certificate Ada lists as her father a man who died years before she was born. Unfortunately, that theory takes several pages to explain.
As an aside, Michael died in 1866 not 1886 as shown on his gravestone. Thanks.
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The year 1886 for Michael SULLIVAN's death was sourced from the obituary of his wife Mary not his headstone. His death registration and burial information have his death in 1866.
According to transcribed information of his headstone, his death was in 1866. A photo is available on request. Email address on website.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~deadsearch/west_sm_sz.htm
SULLIVAN, Michael 1866
SULLIVAN, Mary 1893
SULLIVAN, John Joshua Daniel 1882
Am I correct in thinking that Mary HAYLOCK formerly GOSLING nee COONAN wife of Robert HAYLOCK, at one time Mayor of Carisbrook, Victoria, was Mary SULLIVAN nee COONAN's relative? Mary HAYLOCK was the dau of Thomas COONAN and Bridget MANNION and sister to Ann and John. The family arrived in Victoria from Tipperary via Plymouth in 1851 on the STEBONEATH. Mary SULLIVAN nee COONAN was born in Tipperary.
Her arrival in South Australia.
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/wanderer1851.shtml
Have you considered that Ada may have been an illegitimate child of Mary SULLIVAN's elder daughter born 1856?
Cando
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Exactly what my theory is. I believe Ada is the natural daughter of Mary Coonan/Gosling/Haylock.
This is partly based on my late mother's vague recollection that her mother was raised by an aunt. The Mary Sullivan in Adelaide was married to Michael Sullivan, the gent mentioned as father on Ada's marriage certificate. only problem is that he died long before Ada was born. Another clue is that Ada was brought up ion a strict Catholic background which turned her into a fierce Protestant. The wording on Mary Sullivan's gravestone is very Catholic. The fact is there are no records of Mchael Sulllivan or Ada's birth. Haylock may have been the father, but he seems to have suffered a nervous breakdown and around Ada's birth, he gave up his post as Carisbrook, Victoria's mayor and deserted his wife. At the same time, it was common for sisters to swap children among their family. Poor Ada! She seemed to be the parcel no one really wanted.
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Have you considered that Ada may have been an illegitimate child of Mary SULLIVAN's elder daughter born 1856?
[?Emphrain] Robert HAYLOCK and Mary COONAN married in 1866 and there are no births registered to them at all.
I find it strange that Ada would be taken to Adelaide after her birth when Mary HAYLOCK had a brother John and sister Ann in ?Victoria. What was the relationship between Mary HAYLOCK formerly GOSLING, nee COONAN and Mary SULLIVAN nee COONAN.
Cando
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I should perhaps add that when Ada married she is recorded in her Marriage Certificate as living in Little Rundle Street which is just around the corner from Mary's home in Grote Street, Kent Town.
These various 'facts' of course aren't anything like evidence but it seems to point to the Carisbrook/Adelaide connection. I tried to find some records from the local Catholic church to find a confirmation record or a Catholic school attendance. Still a mystery, but an interesting one!
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Mary HAYLOCK appears to have been a woman of strong character. Wouldn't she have simply raised Ada as her own.
http://wiki.prov.vic.gov.au/index.php/Haylock,_Mary
There is no Grote Street, Kent Town. Grote Street runs from Victoria Square to West Terrace. There is a Little Rundle Street at Kent Town though. I am very familiar with this area of Adelaide. I'll have a look at some of my old maps of Adelaide CBD and environs.
Cando
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Can you give all the information on the marriage certificate, 1891, please.
Death 1945 for Ada DOWNES has birthplace Adelaide. If this is the source for birthplace that you are using, it might be useful to see a birthplace recorded during her life time, even better if Ada is the source of the information.
What birth certificates do you have, Victoria, for children born to Ada and Joseph.........which would ask for birthplace of parents.
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Wivenhoe SA certs are not like the Victorian marriage certificates.
Here you you anyway. Death certificates noted born Adelaide.
Cando
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Thomas COONAN died intestate in 1864. Thomas's file at PROV includes a statement by his son John wherein he mentions himself, Sarah KELLY [nee COONAN] and Mary GOSLING [nee COONAN] as surviving children and next of kin of Thomas COONAN.
No mention of a Mary SULLIVAN in Adelaide.
Cando
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Joseph Job Downes married Ada Sullivan at the Lutheran Parsonagein Adelaide on December 5, 1891. She was 16 and Joseph 28. Both resided in Kent Town. Witnesses were E.M.Galle, a teacher from Flinders Street and H.Dorsch, who was probably the officiating Minister, Casper Dorsch's wife. She later went on to have a distinguished academic career, while her husband, a man of sternly religious views suffered a nervous breakdown.
I don't place much faith in the note on the death certificate that Ada was born in Adelaide. She seemed to deliberately keep her background secret. One touching note was that Ma died quietly from a heart attack listening to a 'Music for the People' concert in the Melbourne Botanic Garden.
Such hard times! Michael Sullivan died at age 54 and left a wife and seven children. The redoubtable Mary died at age 61 in 1893 which meant she could have attended Ada's marriage if she had wished to do so. I can't however imagine good relations between a very devout Catholic woman and Joseph Downes who was a fervent member of the Salvation Army until he fell out with them. Mary was largely instrumental in the achievement of equal pay for policewomen. Her sister, Mary was a bold advocate for womens' suffrage.
All very interesting, but it doesn't help in the search for the elusive Ada's beginnings!
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For births in Victoria, how is Ada's birthplace recorded?
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Thanks for the information on Haylock which is news to me. His children probably wouldn't have known about Ada. The mother might easily have stayed in Adelaide to give birth before returning to Carisbrook in Victoria. Certainly the sisters kept in close touch. Whether he was Ada's father or Ada was the result of his wife having an affair (or being raped) will probably never be known, assuming my theory is correct.
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To answer the question about Ada's birth certificate, this is none which isn't all that rare in those times.
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Thanks for the information on Haylock which is news to me. His children probably wouldn't have known about Ada. The mother might easily have stayed in Adelaide to give birth before returning to Carisbrook in Victoria. Certainly the sisters kept in close touch. Whether he was Ada's father or Ada was the result of his wife having an affair (or being raped) will probably never be known, assuming my theory is correct.
I'm confused...what information 'on HAYLOCK' and his chn?
How do you know that Mary HAYLOCK and Mary SULLIVAN were sisters? What proof do you have eg are they both mentioned on Thomas and Bridget COONAN's death certificates?
I should perhaps add that when Ada married she is recorded in her Marriage Certificate as living in Little Rundle Street which is just around the corner from Mary's home in Grote Street, Kent Town.
No mention of Little Rundle Street on Ada's marriage cert that I attached to reply#25. According to an 1890 directory Mary SULLIVAN lived on the southern side of Grote Street on the corner of Burlington Place, Adelaide. Now appears to be named Marlborough Street. There has never been a Grote Street, Kent Town.
I have marked the site of her house with a red dot on the attached map.
Have you contacted the Catholic Archives in Adelaide to search for any information about Ada? If she was, as you have suggested, been born in Adelaide, surely she would have been baptised.
http://www.adelaide.catholic.org.au/our-works-and-community/archives-and-history/records-services/archives
Over the many the years I've assisted people with their family research and especially with family stories, I've often found that the stories have become distorted and embellished over the years.
Cando
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Witnesses were E.M.Galle, a teacher from Flinders Street and H.Dorsch, who was probably the officiating Minister, Casper Dorsch's wife. She later went on to have a distinguished academic career, while her husband, a man of sternly religious views suffered a nervous breakdown.
All very interesting, but it doesn't help in the search for the elusive Ada's beginnings!
No it may not but some of your info is not quite correct.
Casper DORSCH's wife in 1891 was Friderike Sophia Hulda STREMPEL, who died in 1892. He remarried in 1893 to Agnes HEYNE .
Their family
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90952083
Cando
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Greatly appreciate the heads up on Mary Sullivan's home in Adelaide and the Lutheran Minister. I8'll adjust my records accordingly.
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It's great to now know the location of Mary's home so I can see it when we travel to Adelaide, I did check the Catholic baptisms without success.
One of the things I have found most interesting is the insight one gains into society at that time from the poverty and lawlessness in Tipperary that encouraged the Coonans to come to Australia, the moral hazard that many young women faced in the colony, the revivalist movement and so on. It's an education.
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Difficult researching family history based on a grandmother's stories. Perhaps she wasn't secretive and simply didn't know anymore than she told you mother.
Do you have any proof that the two Mary's were sisters? I very much doubt it as Mary SULLIVAN nee COONEY arrived SA with her brother and sister on the WANDERER in 1851 and not mentioned in Thomas COONAN's deceased estate papers. There is a baptism for a Mary COONAN 1832 at Lorrha and Dorrha, Tipperary with parents Martin COONAN and Ann DELANY. Of course you could purchase an image of Thomas or Bridget COONAN death certificates which would give you the names of their children both living and deceased.
You didn't answer the questions asked on the thread. Bit difficult to help when there is no feedback.
Cando
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There is a well researched paper by Patricia Summerling entitled. 'The darker side of Motherhood. Abortion and Infanticide in South Australia 1870 - 1910' that suggests women in that time were often victims of a very nasty system. Numerous articles at the time pointed out the often lax morals of many of the men at that time. It certainly doesn't support any rose coloured view of Adelaide in the past.
I will be carefully following through in my family history on the comments, criticisms and helpful suggestions that I have received, but this takes time to digest, rather than swiftly posting back responses.
My purpose has always been to simply determine if there is any firm evidence about the life of Ada Sullivan in the 16 or 17 years prior to her marriage. To have had the tremendous support of so many skilled researchers is wonderful and the fact that no one can find any evidence suggests it probably never can be found and unless something dramatically different surfaces, I think I should let this intriguing subject quietly recede into the background.
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It certainly doesn't support any rose coloured view of Adelaide in the past.
Or any other city for that matter.
You have sought help with limited information and there was more and appear reluctant to answer any of questions which really do not require in depth thought.
I have further suggestions but will as you suggest let the subject quietly recede into the background.
Good luck.
Cando
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While letting things fade into the background, may I please include the following link to the paper by Patricia Sumerling.
http://www.sahistorians.org.au/175/documents/author/sumerling/index.shtml
The Darker Side of Motherhood: Abortion and Infanticide in South Australia by Patricia Sumerling.
This essay first appeared in the Journal of the Historical Society of South Australia, vol 13, 1985, pp.111-127.
JM