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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: nowornever on Monday 11 September 17 14:13 BST (UK)
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Hello Australia
I am GT GT niece of Thomas Lockley who arrived Sydney 1879 and married widow Ellen A Hunter in 1891.
She had a daughter Parthenia and they went on to have Frederick,Charles. b 1900 and Isabella b 1893. They all married. Their names were then Parthenia Holden, Isabella Reed and Frederick married Florence Willcocks in 1926.
It's been quite an emotional journey tracking the life of Thomas. I did manage to get a photo of his grave but not a photo of him.
If anyone is doing their family tree out there for this family I would love to get in contact .
Fingers crossed
Pauline
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Hi Pauline,
I see there is a probate packet for Frederic Charles LOCKLEY https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1480433 and I could photograph this for you next time I am there if you wish.
You can check for others here https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
Ros
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Hello Ros
Thank you so much for replying and your kind offer which I would be delighted to accept. Any information helps me to expand my "Jigsaw " of this family. My own family never spoke of Thomas and we are sure that they never knew of his Australian connections.
Frederick Charles, the same names as my late father, has caused me difficulties. I found him and Florence on the 1935 and 1943 census living in Bellarwi (via Barmedman) as a farmer. I am not sure if this is in the Paramatta area where his father and mother were:-
(Junee, Illabo, Boree, Balmain, Cootamundra, Narrandera, Martin, Five Dock, Abbotsford are on many records I have found and I haven't established where all these areas are. I've just concluded that they are in the south of Sydney)
I was never able to establish his death or possible children so your information is priceless! It gives me hope that there might be grandchildren who can fill in some gaps- although Frederick married just after his father's death. However Ellen, grannie, was alive for another 10 years..
I have checked out the link you sent, nothing immediately jumps out so I will spend more time on that. I have to say that I have been very impressed with all the freely available Australian records you have.
"Trove" & " Convicts Central" really kick -started my research and the journey has been incredible.
I don't know if you can answer this but Thomas, a convict, must have been given an ABSOLUTE pardon as he returned to England before he decided to make his life in Australia. My understanding is that he could not return to the UK on a CONDITIONAL pardon. Q:- Do you know of any records of these Absolute pardons? I imagine they were quite rare.
I am really grateful for your kind offer and hope to hear back from you when you have time.
Thank you
Pauline
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Hi Pauline
A pleasure to help with the probate
As far as pardons are concerned if you go to the link I gave .. choose indexes ... at the top is key name search ... enter Lockley and it will give several entries
Sorry I am at a trivia night with family and only have my phone with me. I'll give more info and better link later
Ros
Adding : link to key name search https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/keyname
Adding : There are deceased estate files for Thomas and Ellen there which I can photograph
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Hi Pauline,
I think this is obit to Thomas http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article102147955
I don't understand how he could be a convict who was transported to Australia as he was born about 1840 ? Convict transportation to nsw and Tasmania ceased by 1842.
I think we need more details about him :)
ROs
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Have you requested digitization of your father's service record?
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=114678
It may hold information to further your inquiry.
Sue
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Hi Ros
He was transported in 1865 aboard Vimeria - but to Freemantle. Sentence ended 1872.
(That's why the link you sent to look at in NSW wont show him as
a) the dates, as you say, are too early
& b) he wasn't there at that time) But a brilliant web site. I have looked at it before but didn't spot the probate that you found.
He left Freemantle in 1878 to return home - must have saved and worked liked mad to enable him to have enough for both voyages as he obviously intended to return.
I can understand why he wouldn't have gone back to Freemantle, and he had probably heard that Sydney was more established and there he was no longer reminded of being a convict? He didn't have an assisted passage either. I get quite emotional thinking about his determination to see his family once more, and sadly he didn't come home to good news. But he seemed to have made good in Sydney.
Sorry if I have confused you- as I was only concentrating on his life & family in Sydney as that's where any distant relatives were likely to be.
Hope your trivia evening went well
Pauline
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Thanks Pauline :)
That explains it. That is remarkable that he returned home and then returned to Australia all by his own hard work. A very determined man.
Trivia nights are lots of fun with family - only occasionally do we do well :(
Ros
Adding : full pardons are not uncommon but returning to England was very rare and then returning to Australia was most exceptional
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Oh Ros - that is indeed his obituary which I have never seen before.
So the man did indeed make good. I knew it!!
My sister was out in Sydney last year, on a cruise, and although she is not at all interested in this research I threatened her to not dare come back without a photo of his grave. It took them all day to find it at Rookwood although she was given the plot number- and she only had two days in Sydney. I was so....grateful.
Thank you. I will treasure this and put it into the many files I now have of his life.
Pauline
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Have you requested digitization of your father's service record?
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=114678
It may hold information to further your inquiry.
Sue
Sue
Thank you for this link. I did think Frederick had joined up at one point and that is why my trail went cold. However the next of kin would have been "Florence" and his date of birth was 1900 so that does not fit either.
Really appreciate your input - every little helps me get closer.
Thank you
Pauline
( hope this isn't repeated. My internet keeps going down. Grrr)
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Hi,
Thomas Lockley was sentenced to 8 years penal servitude at the Staffordshire Summer Assises on Monday 25th July 1864. A George Lockley received 6 years at the same time maybe a brother?
Not being a life sentence probably would have allowed him to return after serving his time.
Gerry
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Thank you Gerry. That's correct.
George was his brother. Sentenced with others for the same offence. Fortunately a very understanding Judge who considered all the facts - not the "hang'em all" type of man.
I feel they were a very close family and that's why Thomas made the effort to get back to see them all.
Thanks
Pauline
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Hi Pauline,
You can see on some of the old Parish maps where Thomas Lockley had his 40 acres, portion 135 in the Parish of Boree, County of Clarendon, near Illabo.
I can try and steer you through the site if you want, can be a bit tricky.
Gerry
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Your Isabella:
12979/1917 REED Gordon J H to LOCKLEY Isabel C NARRANDERA
Deaths:
7404/1940 REED Gordon Joseph Henry parents Mark Thomas and Annie WEST WYALONG
100538/1976 REED Isabel Christina parents Thomas and Ellen Alice
I live near West Wyalong. I've phoned the library, which holds cemetery details. Gordon was not on the Shire's online data base, but the librarian is going to check off line register.
I was hoping Isabel was buried with him.
Jamjar
Added:
Gordon in accident in 1939, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article130468710
No record of the Reed/Reid's buried in Bland Shire :-\
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There are some ads for the property adjoining T.Lockley's
This property is described as being 23? Miles SW of Cootamundra and 3 miles west of Illabo railway station and within the Sebastopol, June and Eurongilly goldfield.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138439711
Ros
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Marriage of a daughter of Isabel and George, 2nd column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article130461370
13578/1940 LUCAS Ronald George to REED Lila Joan ARDLETHAN
Death:
108477/1985 LUCAS Lila Joan parents Gordon and Christina
Jamjar
Added: Lila mention, last column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144765343
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NSW Electoral Roll 1902 HUME, polling at Illabo
Ellen Alice LOCKEY (JM confirms that is yes, that’s the spelling on the roll ::) ), Illabo, Bethungra Park, domestic duties
Thomas LOCKLEY, Illabo, Bethungra Park, farmer.
JM
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I see that the obituary for Thomas states "as a young married man he came to Australia etc" so does this indicate that he had been married in England?
Gerry
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I found him and Florence on the 1935 and 1943 census living in Bellarwi (via Barmedman
Do you mean electoral rolls rather than census?
Barmedman is a 20min drive from West Wyalong.
Are these your Frederick and Florence?
1279/1926 LOCKLEY Frederick C to WILLCOCKS Florence D ROCKDALE
51368/1974 LOCKLEY Frederick Charles parents Thomas and Ellen
5640/1987 LOCKLEY Florence Daisy parents John and Susan
Birth: 4286/1903 WILLCOCKS Florence D John and Susan LIVERPOOL
Jamjar
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There is a Thos. LOCKLEY, male, English, aged 43, a Farmer, listed on a PROV passenger list for Cuzco, from London, arriving Oct 1879, contracted to land Sydney New South Wales.
I am not sure how to confirm that he was the same chap that had been transported to Western Australia under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878.
Thomas LOCKLEY was born in 1838 and when transported on the Vimeira arriving 22 December 1865 he was noted as a married man with 1 child. He was Literate, and his occupation was Locksmith. Tried at Stafford.He was under a sentence of eight years for Manslaughter. His ticket of leave was issued 3 December 1868 and his Conditional Release was issued 27 January 1871, General Servant, labourer. The comments also note “To London 5 Jan 1878.”
Transportation to Western Australia ceased 1868. His sentenced expired 1872, so he had completed his sentence years before he went “To London 5 Jan 1878” as a free man. I cannot see why he would have needed any Absolute Pardon or even a Conditional Pardon to travel to London in January 1878.
http://fremantleprison.com.au/history-heritage/history/convict-database/ The database includes the following message “Official convict records are held by the State Records Office of Western Australia and should be consulted when conducting official genealogical/ historical research.”
From his digitised convict records, he was aged 26 when transported, a Protestant, his wife was Sarah and his son was Edward aged O. His wife, Sarah is shown on that record as living at Dunmore (Mummore ?) Farm, Willenhall, Staffordshire and he had been in Portland Prison before being transported per Vimeria. He was 5 ft 6”, brown hair, light grey eyes, long Visage, fresh complexion, M Stout, and a seal on the left knee. He was of Good Character.
As he died in New South Wales, I would hope his death certificate provides some information about his origins, and his marriage to Sarah, and the child of that marriage. Of course, the information on a NSW death cert is only as reliable as the informant’s knowledge.
I am concerned that the dots perhaps are not yet joining up between the Thomas transported in 1865 to Western Australia and the Thomas dying in 1925 in Lewisham, New South Wales.
JM
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Nice work JM,
See there was a marriage Wednesfield Stafford on 3rd March 1862, Thomas Lockley and Sarah Cooper.
GS film No 1470998.
Gerry
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:)
I think Parthenia HUNTER had a younger brother, Albert E HUNTER. I could be wrong, but from NSW BDM online index it seems Edward and Ellen A HUNTER were parents to:
1884 Parthenia, birth registered Balmain district #4292 (now or never mentions her in the Opening Post)
1886 Albert E, birth registered Parramatta district #18935
I think Edward HUNTER died 19 November 1887, death registered Parramatta #7446.
I suspect that the 1891 NSW BDM marriage registration for Thomas LOCKLEY and Ellen A HUNTER, registered Junee district #4284 may well have some elusive blanks - perhaps missing info about their parents, their own origins, ages, perhaps even their status. Rural NSW marriages 1856-1895 may not ever have been subject to full reconciliation between the Church register and the civil register. NSW BDM website notes that discrepancy and it is now years since I did the thread up about how to overcome those elusive blanks.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
JM
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Based on the headstone inscription Thomas would have been born in 1840:
Old Church of England FF 16 923
Hunter, Edward, 19 Nov 1887 31 - My hub. Accidently killed, Merrylands
LOCKLEY, Thomas 07 Mar 1925 85
LOCKLEY, Ellen Alice 10 Dec 1936 - Wife of Thomas. Cremated
Jamjar
Added: About accident, 2nd last column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article236761632
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Son's death in Condo:
36171/1968 HUNTER Albert Edward parents EDWARD and ELLEN CONDOBOLIN
Added:
5961/1916 HUNTER Albert E to BRUCE Bertha JUNEE
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Burial:
Hunter Albert Edward 1886? 23 Jun 1968 82 Condobolin NSW Ang3 B31
Hunter Eunice Violet 1904? 23 Sep 1959 55 Condobolin NSW Ang3 B32
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9163522#images
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9163523#images
Added:
Death of first wife:
18484/1932 Hunter Bertha ROBERT 46YRS TEMORA (-TOSH) TEMORA
Marriage to 2nd wife:
8278/1934 HUNTER Albert E to CHESSELL Eunice V MARRICKVILLE
Children:
Deaths:
17508/1917 HUNTER Ellen G parents ALBERT E and BERTHA NARRANDERA
13660/1935 HUNTER Barbara D parents Albert E and Eunice V TEMORA
17976/1938 HUNTER Stillborn Male parents Albert Edward and Eunice Violet CONDOBOLIN
15083/1939 HUNTER Stillborn Male parents Albert Edward and Eunice Violet CONDOBOLIN
26066/1940 HUNTER Stillborn Male parents Albert Edward and Eunice Violet CONDOBOLIN
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Children of of Parthinia and George E
34434/1912 HOLDEN Wilfred N parents George E and Pathinia RYDE
51659/1913 HOLDEN Walter H parents George E and Parthenia RYDE
Marriages:
23711/1938 HOLDEN Wilfred Norman to PEARCE Jean WOOLLAHRA
10159/1939 HOLDEN Walter Howard to TURNER Lily Marguerite HURSTVILLE
Deaths:
11145/1985 HOLDEN Wilfred Norman parents GEORGE EDWARD and PATHINIA
HOLDEN Wilfred Norman (Bill) Death notice 26-4-1985 Death late of Clovelly Sydney Morning Herald 27A-4-1985
Buried:
South Head Cemetery General P 11 577, 577A
PEARCE, Sidney 14 Nov 1930 47
(Sandy). Husb of Ethel & father of Sid, Cecil & Jean
PEARCE, Ethel May 30 May 84
Wife & mother of above
HOLDEN, Wilfed Norman 26 Apr 1985 72
My husb & our father (Inscr on urn - "A Tribute from NSW Rugby Football League." Inscr at base of grave - "From Eastern Suburbs DRL Football Club & Friends") (N.B. Last entry for "William Norman Holden" inscr on loose plaque could have originated from another site).
HOLDEN Walter Howard Death notice 14-1-1992 Death 78 late of Abbotsford Sydney Morning Herald 16-1-1992
HOLDEN Lily Death notice 2-8-2000 Death 87 late of Abbotsfield Sydney Morning Herald 5-8-2000
39761/1968 HOLDEN Pathinia parents EDWARD and ELLEN BURWOOD
49934/1972 HOLDEN George Edward parents THOMAS and JANE ST LEONARDS
HOLDEN Bertha Pathinia Death notice 4-10-1968 Death 85 late of Abbotsford Sydney Morning Herald 9-10-1968
HOLDEN George Edward Death notice 17-6-1972 Death 91 late of Abbotsford Sydney Morning Herald 21-6-1972
AMF - Wilfred Norman Holden
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=9287842
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Willcocks family:
Parents John and Susan
12392/1935 WILLCOCKS John parents THOMAS and MARIA ROCKDALE
22966/1943 WILLCOCKS Susan parents WILLIAM and ELIZA ROCKDALE
Buried Woronora Cemetery
John Willcocks 28-9-1935 Burial Anglican Monumental - Section 2C - 0333
Susan Willcocks 4-8-1943 Burial Anglican Monumental - Section 2C - 0333
Funeral notice, John: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17182126
Death notice, Susan, 2nd last column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article235578245
Births:
18165/1885 Charles H RYDE
19320/1887 Ruby S M PARRAMATTA
18392/1889 Elsie V CENTRAL CUMBERLAND
20270/1893 William J T LIVERPOOL
4626/1895 Lucy V W LIVERPOOL
31845/1898 Frederick J LIVERPOOL
4286/1903 Florence D LIVERPOOL
Marriage:
8180/1908 WILLCOCKS Charles to CHAPPLE Lillian M H LIVERPOOL
2175/1912 WILLCOCKS Ruby S M to WALKER Gordon S LIVERPOOL
13334/1919 WILLCOCKS Frederick J to WITHINGTON Millie C D TAMWORTH
15480/1921 WILLCOCKS John W T to SHUTTLEWORTH Fanny H HURSTVILLE
5334/1923 WILLCOCKS Elsie V to SEALE Guy W ROCKDALE
1279/1926 WILLCOCKS Florence D to LOCKLEY Frederick C ROCKDALE
25208/1942 WILLCOCKS Lucy Vera Winifred HARDINGE James ROCKDALE
Death:
27006/1943 WALKER Ruby Susan May parents JOHN and SUSAN GOSFORD
Death and funeral notices, 2nd and 5th columns: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17873114
At Point Clair Cemetery Gosford, buried with husband. Photo and details: http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=7771704#images
28686/1958 WILLCOCKS CHARLES Henry parents JOHN and SUSAN LIVERPOOL
WILLCOCKS Charles Henry Death notice 26-11-1958 Death 73 late of Liverpool Sydney Morning Herald 27-11-1958
At Woronora Cemetery: Charles Henry Willcocks 26-11-1958 Ashes Anglican Monumental - Section 2C - 0333
Wife Lillian: Lillian Margaret Willcocks 9-11-1963 Burial General Plaque Lawn - Lawn 3 - 0159
Photo: http://www.heavenaddress.com/LILLIAN-WILLCOCKS/1410482/
17415/1961 WILLCOCKS Frederick James parents JOHN and SARAH SYDNEY (Maybe)
WILLCOCKS Frederick James Death notice 24-6-1961 Death 62 late of Darlinghurst Sydney Morning Herald 27-6-1961
At Woronora Cemetery: Frederick James Willcocks 24-6-1961 Burial Anglican Monumental - Section 8 - 0443
41561/1970 WILLCOCKS John Thomas parents JOHN and SUSAN KOGARAH
20737/1970 SEALE Elsie Violet parents JOHN and MARY STRAITH KOGARAH (Maybe)
SEALE Elsie Violet Death notice 30-5-1970 Death 80 late of Rockdale Sydney Morning Herald 2-6-1970
At Woronora Cemetery:
SEALE ELSIE VIOLET Ashes WALL OF MEMORIES - PANEL 21 - JJ - 0540 30-5-1970
SEALE GUY WILMOT Ashes WALL OF MEMORIES - PANEL 21 - JJ - 0539 19-1-1960
28892/1966 HARDINGE Lucy Vera W parents JOHN and SUSAN KOGARAH
At Woronora Cemetery:
HARDINGE LUCY VERA WINIFRED Ashes ANGLICAN MONUMENTAL - SECTION 2C - 0332 29-6-1966
HARDINGE JAMES Burial ANGLICAN MONUMENTAL - SECTION 2C - 0332 8-4-1957
3167/1984 WILLCOCKS FANNY HILDA parents HENRY and HARRIETT
Millie 2nd marriage: 2428/1947 WILLCOCKS Millie Coral Daisy to Philp Donald Kenrick KINGSFORD
Death: 5741/1975 PHILP Millie Coral Daisy parents THOMAS and AMELIA
At Rookwood: Millie Coral PHILP 77 24-2-1975 10-4-1975 Zone F Methodist Niche Wall 34A
Donald Kenrick PHILP 71 23-8-1972 21-9-1972 Zone F Methodist Niche Wall 33A
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Hey all you kind people...
Your'e on a roll now. I am about to answer you
Pauline
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1861 England Census.
Willenhall, Staffordshire.
Thomas Lockley, head, 49
Sarah Lockley, wife, 47.
Thomas Lockley, 21, son, um, locksmith.
George Lockey, 19, son, um.
Samuel, Lockley, 15, son, um.
Joseph Lockley, 10, son.
Henry Lockley, 7, son.
Gerry
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Maybe Thomas's parents looking after his son while he was serving his sentence in WA.
!871 England Census.
Willenhall, Staffordshire.
Thomas Lockley, head, 59.
Sarah Lockley, wife, 57.
Joseph Lockley, son, 20, um.
Henry Lockley, son, 17, um.
Edward Lockley, grandson, 8, scholar, born, Willenhall.
Gerry
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An Edward Lockley, 9 died in 1872
September Quarter 1872, 6B/311, District Wolverhampton which includes the Parish of Willenhall.
Gerry
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Just when I think that the hundreds of hours (6 obsessive years) I have spent on this person, and that I have answered most questions, you amazing people turn up with more proof/confirmation that has escaped me. I'll try to answer /respond to you all. Might have to do it in more than 1 post Got my files out...let's go
Jamjar:- the following evidence might answer some of your doubts? Hope so.
But mainly here to : -
Gerry:
"as a young married man he came to Aust..." Not strictly true. As seen on the Cuzco passenger list he travelled alone. His wife remained here - but has been a thorn in my side trying to find her. In last few days I think I M-I-G-H-T be onto something. Will see. It was Sarah Cooper and they did marry in 1862. ( Have Marriage Cert )They actually had 2 children- one was only 2 weeks old when Thomas was arrested. I only found this out by staying in London twice, to visit the Nat Archives and studying all the prison records, some years ago. Sadly I discovered that the baby died at 9 months, starvation, before he sailed. Have birth/death certs (So, Jamjar, that explains one of your issues. He had 2 children originally which were recorded on prisonrecords. Threw me too for a while)
His son, Edward, does appear to be with the grandparents in 1871 and I have his birth & death(@9 yrs) certs. So Thomas lost both.
However, what matters is that IF a partner was transported for more than 7 yrs then the remaining partner was free to remarry. I think there is a similar law in existence today (but not for "transportation"!) |So when Thomas met up with Ellen and stated he was a widower- I did get that Marriage cert also- I believe him. Why would he lie and risk everything? I can't explain how I have ended up second guessing some things that became factual. Even before I knew the crime I knew it was the result of a drunken brawl and can prove that. Really weird.Anyone know what I mean? (concentrate a bit longer Jamjar)
PARDONS:- Jamjar & Gerry
Regarding "not being a life sentence" & free to leave Aust. My understanding, after copious amounts of reading up on the subject (try "The Fatal Shore"- amazing) is that convicts were generally not allowed to leave Aust , even after completing their sentences.
CONDITIONAL = were now free men/women but had to remain in Australia
ABSOLUTE = free and able to return to their native country- or anywhere. Not that many granted in comparision to Conditional. I'm happy to be corrected but would ask - why 2 different pardons?
Yes Gerry Those are the correct Census' for the family. He was a locksmith but they didn't require those skills in prison. Wonder why? Think he became a blacksmith at first. In Willenhall, his home town, about 3 years ago, there was a new memorial to the old locksmiths of the town made and I had an engraved brick put there stating he had died in Sydney.
And, yes, I would love you to walk me through those old Parish Maps
Hope I've answered all your queries and thank you again. Now for post no:2...
Pauline
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Ros: you've done it again with your "property search" I haven't had time to study it yet ( have you seen the responses I have to answer?) But I appreciate your kick-starting this mission of mine and going to all the trouble you have. I hope my latest posts will clear more things up for you. Just need the relatives to step forward now...
Majm
I am not sure how to confirm that he was the same chap that had been transported to Western Australia under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878.
Ans Queensland informed me of his leave date, his Ticket of Leave date and his CONVICT NUMBER. This number remains with him from the voyage out, during his sentence and when he departs.
I cannot see why he would have needed any Absolute Pardon or even a Conditional Pardon to travel to London in January 1878.
Ans;Please see what I replied toGerry / Jamjar
As he died in New South Wales, I would hope his death certificate provides some information about his origins,
Ans : Dont have his death cert but death records on Ancestry state his correct mother & father
....... and his marriage to Sarah, and the child of that marriage.
Sarah did not go to Aus, and the children had pre-decease him by 40 years
I am concerned that the dots perhaps are not yet joining up between the Thomas transported in 1865 to Western Australia and the Thomas dying in 1925 in Lewisham, New South Wales.
Ans: I can't answer that for you but I am convinced that it is one & the same man. I have dotted as many "i"'s as possible, spent years on this, got just about every cert to confirm each stage, am surrounded by files on the family etc. I have NO doubts.
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It's certainly an interesting search Pauline :)
We'll see what Thomas deceased estate file shows - usually not much family or background info on deceased estate files, mostly details of assets and debts. But you never know there could be some clues.
(And yes I'll photograph probate packet for Frederic and Ellen)
Ros
adding : there is a gap in the online indexes for probate packets on NSW SRO between 1891 and 1927 so there is possibly a probate packet for Thomas except there is a note on his deceased estate file that no probate was granted. Still worth a shot - I can check the microfiche index to see if there is a probate packet and photograph it if is there.
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.....
Majm There is a Thos. LOCKLEY, male, English, aged 43, a Farmer, listed on a PROV passenger list for Cuzco, from London, arriving Oct 1879, contracted to land Sydney New South Wales.
How did you know he was "contracted to
I know this because it is information recorded on the PROV passenger list for the vessel. PROV is the Public Record Office of Victoria. The PROV currently has a commercial partnership with several family history websites, and at least one has uploaded the Cuzco passenger list available via PROV.
:) :) I am interested in learning how you know that the chap who married in 1891 is your relative. :) :)
Re Absolute Pardon and Conditional Pardon.
Regarding "not being a life sentence" & free to leave Aust. My understanding, after copious amounts of reading up on the subject (try "The Fatal Shore"- amazing) is that convicts were generally not allowed to leave Aust , even after completing their sentences.
CONDITIONAL = were now free men/women but had to remain in Australia
ABSOLUTE = free and able to return to their native country- or anywhere. Not that many granted in comparision to Conditional. I'm happy to be corrected but would ask - why 2 different pardons?
Yes, I have read The Fatal Shore. There are many other reliable reference books. A Conditional Pardon was simply that .... a pardon with conditions. The usual condition imposed was to restrict the holder from returning to the country where they were tried, so usually restricting them from returning to Britain. It did not stop them from moving to any other country, nor did it restrict them from moving between the various British colonies that became Australia when they were federated in 1901.
Do you have any reason to believe the chap transported to WA in 1865 was issued with either a Conditional Pardon or an Absolute Pardon? I can see a Conditional Release was noted on the records, but I have not found any mention of a Pardon. I am quite sure that he did not need any type of Pardon once he had completed his sentence and was thereby emancipated. He had quite a number of years as a free man before travelling to London in 1878. Convictism had ceased for WA back ten years earlier.
I do agree that his marriage to Sarah was effectively terminated on being transported, so she was free to marry someone else as early as 1865, and I do agree the clergy in the Australian colonies at least, well understood this and many a marriage is recorded using the word widow or widower. I have written about that aspect many times here at RChat, so too have others.
I can see that there's several chaps in NSW named Thomas LOCKLEY in the 'right' timeframe for the chap arriving in 1879.
Are you related to the chap who was transported in 1865? I have other information available for the couple I noted on the 1902 electoral roll, but I cannot see how you have confirmed he is the same chap transported to WA in 1865.
NSW Electoral Roll 1902 HUME, polling at Illabo
Ellen Alice LOCKEY (JM confirms that is yes, that’s the spelling on the roll ::) ), Illabo, Bethungra Park, domestic duties
Thomas LOCKLEY, Illabo, Bethungra Park, farmer.
JM
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Hi
I see you have now struck through the words 'How did you know he was 'contracted to' ... I am not sure why, but I am sure my answer will be helpful to others following the thread. :)
JM
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Sorry Majm and everyone
I have been replying to you all for 12 hours now. Obviously the posts have been too lengthy for the system to cope with and it has crashed loosing most. Sorry JamJar. Will try again
In answer to Majm:
I tried to include your quote, but as I didn't need to respond to all of the content, I thought it would be simple to delete parts of it. As you can see it did not delete any and this is probably why my post became too large and went into cyber space. Who knows
I struck through "How did you know..." because I originally read it to mean he was contracted to RECEIVE land. That's why I was about to ask how you discovered he was arriving to some acres (of land) Then I realised it was a bit ambiguous and actually meant that he expected to land at Sydney.
I believed that I had deleted it before posting but obviously not all of it.
Hope that explains it
P
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I believe your lengthy reply re: convict status should have been directed to JM, not Jamjar. ;)
J.
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Hi,
You have now modified this post again. :)
Ros: you've done it again with your "property search" I haven't had time to study it yet ( have you seen the responses I have to answer?) But I appreciate your kick-starting this mission of mine and going to all the trouble you have. I hope my latest posts will clear more things up for you. Just need the relatives to step forward now...
Majm
I am not sure how to confirm that he was the same chap that had been transported to Western Australia under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878.
Ans Queensland informed me of his leave date, his Ticket of Leave date and his CONVICT NUMBER. This number remains with him from the voyage out, during his sentence and when he departs.
I cannot see why he would have needed any Absolute Pardon or even a Conditional Pardon to travel to London in January 1878.
Ans;Please see what I replied toGerry / Jamjar
As he died in New South Wales, I would hope his death certificate provides some information about his origins,
Ans : Dont have his death cert but death records on Ancestry state his correct mother & father
....... and his marriage to Sarah, and the child of that marriage.
Sarah did not go to Aus, and the children had pre-decease him by 40 years
I am concerned that the dots perhaps are not yet joining up between the Thomas transported in 1865 to Western Australia and the Thomas dying in 1925 in Lewisham, New South Wales.
Ans: I can't answer that for you but I am convinced that it is one & the same man. I have dotted as many "i"'s as possible, spent years on this, got just about every cert to confirm each stage, am surrounded by files on the family etc. I have NO doubts.
I am pleased you have NO doubts, and to me, it is fine for each family history buff to have their own standards for compiling their own family tree. My concerns are when any family history buff seeks to share their own tree with others, particularly when seeking to find living descendants .... the research needs to be validated, and I cannot see how you have validated any connection between the 1865 convict and the 1879 passenger (and for that matter, the 1891 marriage)
Replying to each of your comments:
....... and his marriage to Sarah, and the child of that marriage.
Sarah did not go to Aus, and the children had pre-decease him by 40 years
No-one has mentioned/suggested that Sarah came to Australia :) but that does not preclude information about Sarah or their children from being noted on the death certificate. It depends on the reliability of the informer.
As he died in New South Wales, I would hope his death certificate provides some information about his origins,
Ans : Dont have his death cert but death records on Ancestry state his correct mother & father
Death records on Ancestry .... ummm.... are you referring to the compiled INDEX on Ancestry ... What maiden name does it show? The NSW BDM online index is free to search and available here:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx Don't order the document just yet, it may be in the paperwork available from the NSW State Archives. Ros has offered to photograph the file for you.
I cannot see why he would have needed any Absolute Pardon or even a Conditional Pardon to travel to London in January 1878.
Ans;Please see what I replied toGerry / Jamjar
I had already read your reply to Gerry and Jamjar before I typed up my reply explaining about Pardons. He did not need any Pardon to leave WA or travel to London in 1878. He was emancipated.
I am not sure how to confirm that he was the same chap that had been transported to Western Australia under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878.
Ans Queensland informed me of his leave date, his Ticket of Leave date and his CONVICT NUMBER. This number remains with him from the voyage out, during his sentence and when he departs.
Please, please, please note that the paragraph immediately before the one in that post reads:
There is a Thos. LOCKLEY, male, English, aged 43, a Farmer, listed on a PROV passenger list for Cuzco, from London, arriving Oct 1879, contracted to land Sydney New South Wales.
I am not sure how to confirm that he was the same chap that had been transported to Western Australia under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878.
....
Yes, I am aware of how the numbering system worked in the convict system, and I cannot fathom how you have mis-understood my words. I am clearly asking about the convict transported to WA under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878 AND HOW you match him up with the chap who came as a passenger in 1879 ...
Hopefully this has cleared up some confusions.
JM
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So, back on track :)
May I please learn how you know you are descended from the chap who was transported to Western Australia in 1865.
JM
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..... |So when Thomas met up with Ellen and stated he was a widower- I did get that Marriage cert also- I believe him. Why would he lie and risk everything? I can't explain how I have ended up second guessing some things that became factual. Even before I knew the crime I knew it was the result of a drunken brawl and can prove that. Really weird.Anyone know what I mean? (concentrate a bit longer Jamjar)
PARDONS:- Jamjar & Gerry
Regarding "not being a life sentence" & free to leave Aust. My understanding, after copious amounts of reading up on the subject (try "The Fatal Shore"- amazing) is that convicts were generally not allowed to leave Aust , even after completing their sentences.
CONDITIONAL = were now free men/women but had to remain in Australia
ABSOLUTE = free and able to return to their native country- or anywhere. Not that many granted in comparision to Conditional. I'm happy to be corrected but would ask - why 2 different pardons?
....
Please may I ask you to share all the information on that 1891 marriage certificate.
JM
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Hi,
Thomas Lockley had a 40 acre Conditional Purchase block in the Parish of Boree, County of Clarendon.
To view this you will need to visit here and if you want to go ahead agree to the terms.
Search under NSW Parish Maps and this site should come up "Parish and Historical Maps"
Once there go down "Historic Land Records Viewer" and enter.
An image viewer should come up on the right hand side, in the keyword type Boree and in the box underneath have Historic Parish Maps only ticked it will make things easier.
Get results and find the 1889 Parish of Boree, County of Clarendon Map and open it. Sometimes there are a number of pages of maps with different dates.
The 40 acre block you will be looking for is in the top right hand corner P135 surrounded by larger portions 154, 132, 124 and 155, blow up the map using the + magnifying glass (click and drag) and move around using the hand, (click and hold) can take a bit of practice.
Find the block. T. Lockley, CP 95.8, 40 acres.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/conditional-purchase-crown-land-guide.
He had other CPs as well around the place as well and these would show up in the newspapers, he had a dispute over a large CP in the Parish of Ivor, County of Clarendon where he had to share 600 acres with Mr Barnes. This CP does appear on the maps but not under his name but you can still identify it.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/145409487?searchTerm=
Mr George Butt and Thomas had both applied for this CP in 1908 also in the Parish of Ivor.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/145415059?searchTerm=
Another CP application in 1891 in the Parish of Billabung (not Billabong), County of Clarendon, dont know if Thomas was granted this as the maps show George Osborne.
Gerry
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Majm
This time I wont make the replies too lengthy j.i.c. I loose it all.
The Cuzco. There were records showing Thomas left on this ship on Ancestry. He certainly did not remain here for the 1881 census. He had left for Sydney.
In order to find him after he disappeared after his marriage , and not knowing about the trial at that point, I checked every Thomas in this country and there were many. None convinced me. Next I had to look at the possibility that it was he who was mentioned on Ancestry's criminal records- something I had ignored.
This led to visits to Kew to read his prison records, none of which were on line at that time-next of kin etc matched. His brother George, also sentenced, was also checked out. Of course George had also disappeared. I found scribbled messages on the back of official documents naming his mother at the inquest. I found things at Kew that are not on line proving I have the right person. The newspapers were full of the story. I have another file full of their reports from Land's End to the tip of Scotland. They had a field day as we say and their reports contain proof of names, addresses' locations etc. Absolutely no doubt.
Incidentally I also discovered the ship he left Freemantle on even though there were no records available.
I know that the lists have only just been released, or to be more accurate I only saw confirmation, of what I had already worked out, a month ago and I whooped with joy. I had spent forever tracking the ships in the area and as anyone will appreciate there were more ships then than there are planes in the sky. Another folder full of shipping info. I narrowed it down to two wool ships, the Helena Mena and Charlotte Padbury, believing it to be the later. Years later it turns out it was the Charlotte Padbury.
Believe me when I say I want as much evidence as there is out there.
Leave it at that. Will look at your next query
Pauline
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Here are the headings on a 1891 NSW marriage certificate
Date and place of marriage (two columns under this, the one to the left will often have a number. That’s usually the local number allocated by the local BDM registrar, ie the line number in the local register ledger)
Names and surnames of the parties
Conjugal status
Birthplace (Column 5) (sometimes needs two different registers to obtain the locality rather than just the county/country)
Married in the
According to the rites of
Usual Occupation
Age (Column 7)
Usual place of residence
Father’s name
Mother’s name and maiden name (Column 9)
Father’s occupation (Column 10)
Signatures (or mark) of the Groom and the bride (often in same handwriting as the clergyman)
Witness signatures (also often in clergyman’s hand)
In the blank column to the immediate right of column 10 there should be a stamp with handwritten info provided. Stamp reads
“Particulars in Columns
…………………………………… (usually handwriting will read 5, 7, 9, 10)
Obtained from
Church Register
No.
…………………………….. (sometimes up to FIVE different registers are numbered here)
……………………………… (the signature of the senior officer of the NSW BDM validating the information SHOULD appear here)
Deputy Registrar General
Sydney.
…………………………………. (Date of his signature)
…………………………………… (additional initials/numbers from NSW BDM officials)
I recall he could read and write, so he should have signed the 1891 and 1862 registers. :)
JM
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Here is a pdf (106 pages) about researching convicts in Western Australia.
http://www.friendsofbattyelibrary.org.au/PDF/Convict%20Records%20of%20Western%20Australia.pdf
I may well be wrong, but my recollection of Robert Hughes epic (The Fatal Shore) concentrated much more on the convict system in New South Wales/Norfolk Island Van Diemens Land and in the years 1788-1850s with more than 150,000 convicts rather than the Western Australia system 1850-1868 and less than 10,000 convicts.
JM
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Here's a snip from page 28/106 of that pdf
JM
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Majm
its 2 am here. i cant possibly answer all your queries now.
And I need to print them off as there's so many so I will get back to you and see what I can prove/confirm.
In the meanwhile raise your glass to Thomas- it's actually his birthday today. 14/9/1839
Pauline
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http://marinersandships.com.au/1879/10/media/084cuz4.gif
Source:State Records Authority of New South Wales: Shipping Master's Office; Passengers Arriving 1855 - 1922; NRS13278, [X146-147] reel 441.
Unassisted steerage passenger to Sydney 27 October 1879 per Cuzco
Mr Thos LOCKLEY :)
JM
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Hi Ros
Just to let you know that I have found the will of Ellen Alice in my folder but, as you said, there is no probate (another note) for Thomas Cheers P
Majm
I have now printed off all posts so that I can try to answer your queries a bit easier
You ask what my connection is to the family. as stated in my first post I am the GT GT niece of Thomas. One of his brothers was my Gt Grandfather (Are you related? ) Quote: -
""I have other information available for the couple I noted on the 1902....."
The marriage cert: -
Friends of mine were visiting from Melbourne and offered to apply for this on their return. As you probably know, because they are not direct descendants, they were only permitted the abridged version. This states the couple, venue. date, occupation, residence place, witness' and conjugal status - in this case Widow/Widower. I agree with the comment that some vicars were happy to just accept this -
( but wonder if there were some records around relating to immigrants to confirm/disprove?)
We know Ellen was a widow after Edward was killed- thanks to Jamjar for the report, and I do have their full marriage cert. (And thank you Majm for Albert - I had missed him.)
I mentioned Ellen's will earlier. this clearly proves she was Thomas' widow- naming her daughter.
Then Ros turns up the obit for Thomas which says he arrived from Birmingham ( not quite) some 60 years previously ( if they counted his original "sudden" arrival also)
Although their marriage cert does not give his mother's maiden name ( and I have yet to see the correct one on Ancestry Public Trees) their Death Index, and if my memory is correct, the NSW Archive both correctly state the first names of his parents - my Gt Gt Grandparents.
Finally they are all laid to rest in the same grave- Ellen & her two husbands
I don't know how it is possible to convince you that I believe this to be "my" Thomas; his place of departure; his parent's names; the fact that he was not in England in 1681; the name on the Cuzco...? I can't provide any more, and doubt most people would have as much
And yes there are other Lockleys listed on passenger lists around this time, the majority are females and most ages are out. But I really didn't feel that I needed to expand that search further.
I am going to return- having had so many problems with losing almost completed posts. (3rd time for this one today) Reported it. cant risk it again
Pauline
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Which church were they married in Pauline? Perhaps we can hunt down the church records. (By the way there is no restriction on obtaining a full cert for an 1891 marriage but there may have been blanks on the cert which are filled in on church records)
I had missed that there was a probate packet for Ellen until you mentioned the will but now I've found it. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/583214
Do you have the whole probate packet or just the will? (usually about 30 pages in probate packet which *should* include death certificate and occasionally other certs and full names and locations of heirs). I can easily add that to my list :)
Ros
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Hi again Ros
I only have the will for Ellen - two paragraphs of it. Short & sweet.
I wouldn't think there was too much more info contained in the probate.
They were married at St Luke's Vicarage (was the church itself shut?) Junee on 25 March 1891
Thank you
Pauline
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I am going to return- having had so many problems with losing almost completed posts. (3rd time for this one today) Reported it. cant risk it again
Pauline
Pauline
Nothing to do with your actual query, but a tip to help I hope.
Type your entire reply on to a normal word document.
When complete, copy and paste it into the reply window on your thread which you will access in the usual way.
Replies get can get "wiped" when you leave the typed up reply window (unsent) to enter another website etc.
If the reply is very long, use 2 windows one after the other using the copy and paste from your document.
Sue
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St Luke's Anglican Church Junee website http://juneeanglican.org.au/ does contain contact info - worth a try :)
By the way Edward Charles LOCKLEY (the other person mentioned as executor on Frederic's probate notice and possibly a son) possibly died 15 Nov 2007 late of Cootamundra
with a funeral notice in Cootamundra Herald on 14 Nov 2007
(from Ryerson's http://ryersonindex.org/search.php)
From Govt gazettes on trove, the name of his property was "Oakville" at Stockinbingal
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article220055550
Ros
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Sparret
I really appreciate your advice. I will do exactly that.
People would not believe how many attempts I have lost - even lost the will to live over this.
There's just NO way you can retrieve an hours work.
(shhh... been in my pj's for 2 days in front of this pc!)
thanks
Pauline
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ROS
Thanks again.
2007 death - so near & so far
Will check Junee church out now I have that link. See where that takes me.
Pauline
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Sparret
I really appreciate your advice. I will do exactly that.
People would not believe how many attempts I have lost - even lost the will to live over this.
There's just NO way you can retrieve an hours work.
(shhh... been in my pj's for 2 days in front of this pc!)
thanks
Pauline
The losing is a common occurrence and frustrating indeed. :o
Also very common is the nightwear still on at midday due to excessive engrossment in thread ;D
Now, back to the serious stuff of your inquiry.
Sue
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Please, please, please get out your copy of both the 1862 and 1891 marriage certificates, and take a snip of the signatures of Thomas and post these two for comparsion here or on the decipher board.
Please also re-read my posts, particularly the one where I provided the link to the thread to help overcome the elusive blanks on NSW BDM marriage certificates. Your Melbourne friends were NOT issued with any abridged version because they were not family. NSW BDM does not issue abridged versions. Whoever gave them that information was giving false and mis-leading information and ought to be kicked from here to WhoopWhoop and back. Here's the link again. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Re marrying in the vicarage rather than inside a Church building.... There has never been a requirement for marriages in NSW to be conducted in any consecrated building. The ceremony can be conducted in the open air, and many were and still are.
Re losing posts....
Perhaps if you type your replies into a word document and when ready then login and copy those posts to the dialogue box? (Oops, add to note, I see Sue has already suggested that)
Re 'The Fatal Shore' .... the author (the late Robert Hughes) in the preamble clearly acknowledges he is writing about the convict system as it existed in NSW, Norfolk Island and Tasmania. He was not writing about the convict system as it existed in Western Australia. Even Ancestry's background info notes that the WA system was about re-habilitating the convicts.
JM
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Pauline, I see you have made no comment on all the information I provided on family members. Not necessarily looking for a thank you, but am very curious as to whether I was on the right track, or not.
Jamjar
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Pauline, I see you have made no comment on all the information I provided on family members. Not necessarily looking for a thank you, but am very curious as to whether I was on the right track, or not.
Jamjar
I am sure you are on the right track for Thomas and Ellen LOCKLEY as per the 1902 Electoral Roll info I posted. :) :) :) I am not sure that the descendants of that Thomas are connected to the parents ( Thomas and Sarah LOCKLEY) on this particular 1861 Census.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7Z6-2D9
Re the chap transported to WA in 1865
http://search.ancestry.com.au/search/db.aspx?dbid=60668
Here is one paragraph (of a number of paragraphs) from Ancestry’s info about their database ‘Western Australia, Australia, Convict Records, 1846-1930 which is based on the original data held by the State Records Office of WA:
The penal system in Western Australia functioned somewhat differently than in the rest of Australia. It was based on the concept of rehabilitation rather than of punishment, and the majority of convicts spent a very short time in labour groups. Instead, it was more common for them to go out into the community under a ticket of leave. Under this system, prisoners were free to seek employment before the expiration of their sentence. They were not allowed to leave the district to which they had been assigned, and were required to report to the local magistrate once per month, but they had far more freedom than prisoners in other areas of Australia. Registers of men with tickets of leave were maintained in many cases by local police and courthouses, which kept track of any convicts employed within a given district. These tickets of leave and related records can be used to track the work history and travels of individual convicts.
JM
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Jamjar
Please believe me when I say that I have typed two, or more, lengthy replies to you to applaud your efforts and extensive research and each time they have vanished as I was about to post. I reported it to Moderator Sarah.
Same has happened to other replies I did. There were many to thank.
Sue and Mgm have now given me advice on how to rectify the problem- thank goodness
So it has been two days of repeating replies and you are still on the list. I'm so sorry because I really was excited to forward some info to you about how helpful you had been.
It is now 1 30 am here, and I have finally got to the land of nod
Could you please be patient until tomorrow when I will have my info in front of me?
You are not forgotten, never will be for all the effort you have put in.
Pauline
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What I do is type into the box, highlight and copy at intervals, as I go. Then you can paste if lost.
I just had a thought, what about the brother George you suspect was transported at the same time as Thomas?
Jamjar
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Oh I have to go to sleep...but
The 1861 census Is the correct family. Just before Thomas gets wed in ,1862
and George did not get transported. His sentence 6 hrs I think ( don't bring the file to bed) enabled him to remain in custody here.
Night both
P
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Not 6 hours
bet he wished for that
6 years
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Good oh.
I'm often up until the wee hours when I'm focused on a search. ;)
Jamjar
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http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/6106885
Church of England in Australia. Diocese of Canberra and Goulburn
microfilm SAG Society of Australian Genealogists (Series) ; SAG 0178.
St Luke’s Anglican Church, Junee, N.S.W. Marriages: 1882-1920; baptisms: 1895-1920; 1880-1895; lists of parishioners: 1880-1889?; burials: January-March 1917.
Add :)
...... W. & F. Pascoe Pty. Ltd. for the Society of Australian Genealogists, 1986. 1 microfilm reel ; 35 mm.
JM :)
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Following on from Jamjar's research here are some of the death notices
Ros
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And another ...
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Willcocks and Seale ...
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Daughter of Charles Henry and Lillian Willcocks
23131/1955 HARRISON Albert Carlton to WILLCOCKS Beryl Audrey LIVERPOOL
Both at Palmdale Cemetery
https://billiongraves.com/grave/Beryl-Audrey-Harrison/14442393
https://billiongraves.com/grave/Albert-Carlton-Harrison/14443429
Jamjar
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Daughter of Charles and Lillian Willcocks
26977/1952 WILLCOCKS Ruby Vera parents CHARLES HENRY and LILLIAN MARGARET LIVERPOOL
At Woronora with father and grandparents:
WILLCOCKS RUBY VERA Ashes ANGLICAN MONUMENTAL - SECTION 2C - 0333 18-10-1952
Jamjar
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Son of Charles and Lillian Willcocks
20051/1970 WILLCOCKS Leslie George parents CHARLES HENRY and LILLIAN MARGARET LIVERPOOL
Added: WILLCOCKS Leslie George Death notice 14-4-1970 Death 56 late of Liverpool Sydney Morning Herald 15-4-1970
Jamjar
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Obit for Ruby Vera WILLCOCKS http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article85677169
Death notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18287144
Ros
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Son of Charles and Lillian Willcocks
At Woronora:
Raymond Charles Willcocks 28-10-2004 8-2-2005 Ashes Centenary Court - Panel 19 - 0088
There is a marriage on NSWBDM, but can't post as wife may be living.
Added: WILLCOCKS Raymond Charles Death notice 28-10-2004 Death 88 late of Bexley Daily Telegraph (Sydney) 30-10-2004
Jamjar
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Daughter of Charles and Lillian Willcocks
7393/1934 DARCEY Lionel W to WILLCOCKS Dorothy M LIVERPOOL
DARCEY Dorothy Mavis Death notice 18-12-2003 Death 92 at Cabrini Prahran Herald Sun (Melbourne) 20-12-2003
Springvale Botanical Cemetery
Darcey Dorothy Mavis Buried 23-12-2003 Maples, Row FY, Grave 34
Darcey William Lionel Buried 9-2-1994 Maples, Row FY, Grave 34
Jamjar
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Births of children of Charles and Lillian Willcocks
37101/1908 Ruby V LIVERPOOL
20512/1911 Dorothy M ROCKDALE
6012/1914 Leslie G LIVERPOOL
23083/1916 Raymond C LIVERPOOL
Jamjar
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Son of Elsie and Guy Seale
15017/1950 SEALE William Kingsley to MARTIN Joy ROCKDALE
SEALE William Kingsley Death notice 4-4-1997 Death late of Toukley, formerly of Beverly Hills Sydney Morning Herald 7-4-1997
SEALE Joy Death notice 9-6-2016 Funeral 89 late of Toukley Central Coast Express Advocate 8-6-2016
At Woronora Cemetery:
William Kingsley Seale 4-4-1997 27-5-1997 Ashes Gg - Memorial Rockery 3 - 0036
Joy Seale 25-5-2016 1-8-2016 Ashes Gg - Memorial Rockery 3 - 0034
Son of William and Joy (name found on online tree):
Ross Kingsley Seale 26-7-1989 Ashes Gg - Memorial Rockery 3 - 0032
Jamjar
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Children of Ruby S (Willcocks) and Gordon S Walker
44782/1912 John W LIVERPOOL
15606/1914 William G NOWRA
death 7956/1976WALKER William Gordon parents GORDON STEWART and RUBY JEAN
WALKER William Gordon Death notice 1-4-1976 Death 61 late of Clovelly Sydney Morning Herald 3-4-1976
Probate packet: William Gordon Walker - Date of Death 01/04/1976, Granted on 25/05/1976
11584/1916 Ronald G NOWRA
33853/1917 Raymond A NOWRA
Jamjar
Added: marriage for their daughter can be found on NSWBDM. Surname found in notice posted by Ros, in next post. Haven't found a death for her.
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More notices (from Jamjar's research)
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HARDINGE Lucy Vera Winifred Death notice 29-6-1966 Death 71 at St George Hospital, late of Rockdale Sydney Morning Herald 30-6-1966
HARDINGE James Death notice 8-4-1957 Death late of Bexley Sydney Morning Herald 9-4-1957
Jamjar
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Divorce:
3887/ 1944 Divorce papers Millie Coral Daisy Willcocks - Frederick James Willcocks
Headstone inscription:
PHILP, Millie Coral 24 Feb 1975 77 - Our mother
PHILP, Donald Kennard 23 Aug 1972 71 - Husb. Our father
Jamjar
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Wow there's no stopping you jamjar ;D
Ros
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Buried Stockinbingal Cemetery NSW:
LOCKLEY Edward Charles
LOCKLEY Frederic Charles, Florence Daisy
You can request headstone photos: http://www.ozgenonline.com/~Carols_Headstones/Stockinbingal.htm
Jamjar
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Jamjar
When I woke today and saw 3 more pages of posts I was almost too scared to look. So you don’t sleep or eat then? I feel that between you & Ros I must have most of Australia on my tree. Someone, surely, must contact me now!
Apologies again for the delay – the response has been overwhelming and there is no way that I have been able to read, print, digest it all, and respond in an orderly fashion. And as I explained previous posts to you have vanished. Back to now:-
Firstly Gordon & Isabella
I did have the same parents as you for him- Mark T & Annie. And his death date. Not sure of his origins. But the info on his accident you found was interesting. He died a year later, wonder if his head injuries had something to do with that? - especially as Isabella survived him by 30 years. Then you find info about Lila’s (knew of her) marriage showing Isabella/ Isabel now prefers her middle name- Christina. So that would have lost her to me probably. I do have what looks like a record of floral tributes, on a card, from Taabinga cemetery for another Isabella Reed but the death date is 1968 – age 83. So maybe some of the people listed will show up at some point. Also got a marriage for Lesley Gladys Reed in 1842, no parents named, to Philip J Birch/ Liverpool NSW. Not sure about this yet. But you have provided much to check out. Thank you
Frederick Charles:
Sorry -I can now see that I have all the print out in front of me ( & don’t I need them) that I didn’t respond to you.(or did & lost it) Yes That is correct & he married Florence. I have those parents for her; John & Susan but a query against a William & Elma from Grenfell. Your suggestion seems to be favourite.
This seems to be a family name- my father’s too. I only knew of one other in the family, a cousin of Thomas, who died young I think, & wondered about the origins. Then Thomas took it to Australia and his son passed it on to his son, with “Edward” added, and that is a family name.
I also have possible children for them, not checked out fully, “Elsie Florence m Peter Threkeld” L’pool 1947 & “Florence Mavis” m “ Harold Greenbeyer” Temora 1952. Now there’s a couple of unusual names. I have a list of children for “a” Frederick but they are all well before his own births- so there’s another same named man in the area- mainly Braidwood. I need to get to grips with the map refs that Gerry kindly sent to see these locations - asap.
I seemed to lose Frederick – had him on 1939 & 1943 Rolls at Barmedman but unsure of his death- until Ross turned up the obituary. Thanks for info about the distance from there to W Wyalong. Those maps will be useful........am continuing
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Now the Holdens:-
I was thrilled to have the name “Parthenia” in the tree. Thought it would lead me to everyone! Wrong! Got the marriage, and George’s possible parents as John & Sarah M of Gulgong NSW born 1882, which would make him 90yrs at the death that you found ,but you seem to suggest Thomas & Jane St Leonards. I missed them – but this needs checking. Also have a George Edward Holden who died 17 May 1971 and buried “Field of Mars” cemetery Ryde. So more checking
Got the male children but not Bertha “Parthenia”, who you turned up and has to be theirs, or Lily. Note neither of them married. Thanks again for all their info and sending the links today for the death notices. Obviously not looked yet, but several downloads so someone is interested? Hadn’t found the Pearce family either. You have been busy.
I’m confused about the Willcocks family. I can’t see where they might fit in. Just wondering, with all the speed you must go at, if they were meant for me? (posted today @ 11 24) Or have I lost the plot?
The Hunters:-
Now your Piece de Resistance…..and this is what I was so excited to tell you. (but lost it) My story started long ago trying to find Thomas. When I had dismissed all others of his age in the UK (many public trees owners would not agree) I began to look at the man who settled in NSW and married a widow. So I researched her, finding her background and marriage here in UK . Shortly after they left, on the Dharwar arriving Sydney 5th Oct 1883. Edward was a bricklayer. Parthenia, yes that name really helped, was born 1884 and now, thanks to Majm, I know of her little brother.
Edward died in 1887. Imagine that. 2 small children, away from , and a widow at 31 and probably broke. (dry your eyes – she gets Thomas) I looked at their “possible marriage” and tried not to believe it was Thomas . But I found out so much – it had to be. I had a coroner’s register but that didn’t tell me anymore about the accident Edward had, just that he died from his injuries. All I had was “My Husband. Died of a tragic accident at Merrylands” I also found this to be the inscription on the grave. I hadn’t seen the grave yet – but it turned out to be quite a memorial. Then I discovered, with a shock, that Ellen, Thomas and Edward were all resting together. This makes me feel she loved them both.
But you have no idea how many searches I did to find the circumstances of Edward’s death. It should have been easy,- name; -accident;- Merrylands, -date; Trove. I had it all. Time & again I drew a blank. I discovered that there was “the mother of all storms” that night and wondered if that contributed. Then I found Merrylands, a railway and put 2+2 tog that Edward had been loading bricks and involved with a carriage. Someone, big, had paid for that memorial. And then YOU send me a link to prove it all. Thank you. Thank you. I was blown away. May they all rest in peace.
So the Hunter searches you forwarded cannot be his family- unless he had relatives there. But you’ve been amazing. I am in your debt. Thanks aren’t enough to you all.
cheers about the tips to word process & copy over- it works
Pauline
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There are some ads for the property adjoining T.Lockley's
This property is described as being 23? Miles SW of Cootamundra and 3 miles west of Illabo railway station and within the Sebastopol, June and Eurongilly goldfield.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138439711
Ros
Thanks Ros
Now that I have finally responded to Jamjar I am able to methodically look at all links and respond.
This is most interesting and answers the dumb question I was going to ask of Gerry about "CP". I now know it's Conditional Purchase (Still not sure what it means though -probably if you don' t keep up the payments we have it back! Same old)
Cheers
Pauline
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The Willcocks family are those of Florence who married Frederick Charles Lockley:
1279/1926 LOCKLEY Frederick C to WILLCOCKS Florence D ROCKDALE
The Hunters are those of the son of Ellen and Edward:
36171/1968 HUNTER Albert Edward parents EDWARD and ELLEN CONDOBOLIN
The 'Bertha' Parthenia should be PARTHENIA daughter of Edward and Ellen Hunter.
Pauline, it seems to me that you have built your tree without official certificate confirmation. The only way to be sure who's who is to purchase certs and that is why I list the numbers from NSWBDM. Nothing is correct until verified. There is certainly no way of checking just by looking at cemetery listings as in your comment re: checking out George Edward Holden at Field of Mars. Sometimes we get lucky when we find folk of the names we are looking for buried together, but other times not.
George Edward Holden was cremated in 1972, not buried at FOM in 1971.
The reason for thinking that the George and 'Bertha' Parthenia are the correct folk is because the death notices name the correct children and they are in the same suburb as the son. Only a cert purchase would confirm if 'Bertha' is your Parthenia.
"George’s possible parents as John & Sarah M of Gulgong NSW born 1882, which would make him 90yrs at the death that you found, but you seem to suggest Thomas & Jane St Leonards."
St Leonards is the suburb of Sydney where is death was registered. The marriage cert for Parthenia and George should give his parents names.
Jamjar
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.....
The Hunters:-
Now your Piece de Resistance…..and this is what I was so excited to tell you. (but lost it) My story started long ago trying to find Thomas. When I had dismissed all others of his age in the UK (many public trees owners would not agree) I began to look at the man who settled in NSW and married a widow. So I researched her, finding her background and marriage here in UK . Shortly after they left, on the Dharwar arriving Sydney 5th Oct 1883. Edward was a bricklayer. Parthenia, yes that name really helped, was born 1884 and now, thanks to Majm, I know of her little brother.
Edward died in 1887. Imagine that. 2 small children, away from , and a widow at 31 and probably broke. (dry your eyes – she gets Thomas) I looked at their “possible marriage” and tried not to believe it was Thomas . But I found out so much – it had to be. I had a coroner’s register but that didn’t tell me anymore about the accident Edward had, just that he died from his injuries. All I had was “My Husband. Died of a tragic accident at Merrylands” I also found this to be the inscription on the grave. I hadn’t seen the grave yet – but it turned out to be quite a memorial. Then I discovered, with a shock, that Ellen, Thomas and Edward were all resting together. This makes me feel she loved them both.
But you have no idea how many searches I did to find the circumstances of Edward’s death. It should have been easy,- name; -accident;- Merrylands, -date; Trove. I had it all. Time & again I drew a blank. I discovered that there was “the mother of all storms” that night and wondered if that contributed. Then I found Merrylands, a railway and put 2+2 tog that Edward had been loading bricks and involved with a carriage. Someone, big, had paid for that memorial. And then YOU send me a link to prove it all. Thank you. Thank you. I was blown away. May they all rest in peace.
So the Hunter searches you forwarded cannot be his family- unless he had relatives there. But you’ve been amazing. I am in your debt. Thanks aren’t enough to you all. ...
Any person looking at NSW BDM either online or on CD or as a family history buff using old fashioned tools available back in the era prior to internet should have found both the births for Ellen's children by Edward HUNTER. I doubt that is something worthy of singling out any person to mention in an online post that is readily available to be read by anyone, even when not logged in.
May I again suggest that as you have both the marriage cert for 1862 and the marriage cert for 1891 that you share a snip of the signatures of the groom for others to compare. Alternatively if you already have the NSW birth certificates for Isabella or Frederick LOCKLEY, check to see who was the informant, as if Thomas was the informant a snip of it could be compared with the 1862 signature.
JM
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I think it is lovely to see you were thanked for finding the brother of Parthenia, JM. ;D
The problem with signatures, with so many years in between, is that our style of handwriting can alter dramatically. I known my own has over a 30 year period.
I don't think there is a way to ever know/prove that the two are the same Thomas and there certainly isn't any proof so far. I also don't think it matters. If Pauline wants to believe it then so be it. Maybe if she has attached herself to the wrong Australian family someone out there will see all the information we have provided and correct where she has erred.
Jamjar
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http://www.familytreecircles.com/lockley-hunter-holden-reed-willcocks-of-junee-paramatta-nsw-67403.html
JM
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I realise I am likely duplicating the link to the newspaper report, but due to the length of the thread ..... well I have followed up on the firm named in it, so I am duplicating to save others going back through the thread to find the link. :)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/236761632 Tele 21 Nov 1887
:) Worked at Goodlet and Smith
I am sure this was a large firm that I may have researched back in the 1970s ... with facilities at several locations, and so in keeping with then current practices, they may well have contributed to the costs of the large memorial at Rookwood.
One of their entries in Sands Directory (this from 1885) reads:
GOODLET AND SMITH, importers and manufacturers of building materials,
493 George St (JM says this is in Sydney CBD)
2 Bathurst St (JM says this is in Sydney CBD)
9 George St W (W as in George Street West – ie up near where Central Railway Station was being constructed)
Riley Street pottery works, Surry Hills
Brickworks, Waterloo
Sawmills, Pyrmont (JM says likely supplying Colonial Sugar Refinery and/or John Lysaghts at Pyrmont at that time)
From Sands 1887 directory we learn that Goodlet & Smith’s fixed pay day was Thursday at 2.
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1887-part11.pdf
A quick search of Trove shows the firm was around Sydney and nearby from at least 1861.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/goodlet-john-hay-3631 This article shows he and his wife were involved in various charities.
ADD
Govt Gazette page 7561 26 October 1888 is one of several pages listing inquests etc in NSW for 1887 and against Edward's listing it shows nil assets.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/219885178/14285950
JM
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I'm afraid it will be about a week before I can get to Archives Office.
But there is no rush to family history :)
adding : Pauline didn't originally ask for our help with her research so she has been very gracious about us all gate-crashing ;D But yes he is such an interesting man that we all want to help her to find out more about him.
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No problems Ros- just grateful there are people like you helping people like me.
And you're right, no rush, they're not going anywhere.
Pauline
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Jamjar
I can NOT believe I queried the Willcocks family. How? Sleep deprivation?
Because I was trying to go at everyone elses speed probably, I'm sure I'm not the first to say that there is pressure trying to handle all the responses.
I only included some, unrelated info, to show that I keep all searches just in case a clue is finally realised.
So thanks - seems you have been spot on with yours..
Pauline
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... Pauline didn't originally ask for our help with her research so she has been very gracious about us all gate-crashing ...
[/size]
Ros, I have not gate-crashed this thread. In fact, I am still waiting to learn the name and identifying details of the ancestor that our OP shares with the Thomas Lockley who married Ellen Hunter in 1891.
:) I am quite sure that some of her grandchildren did not ever refer to her as Grannie although our OP has used that word and spelling. Perhaps some other of her grandchildren were encouraged to address her as Grannie but the grandchildren I am aware of simply did not. You may draw your own conclusion as to how I ‘know’ that some of her grandchildren did not refer to Ellen as Grannie, but I am not a grandchild.
:) I am quite sure that many RChatters familiar with NSW researching will agree with me that a farm with 2 horses, 5 cows and 230 sheep in the 1890s and 1900s at Boree would provide only a subsistence level of living for a family. Some of the properties in that district were running 15,000 head of sheep in that era.
:) The Thomas Lockley listed on the PROV passenger list arriving October 1879 is shown there as English, farmer aged 43. If the passenger provided accurate information about himself, then he was likely born 1835, 1836 or 1837, but our OP has recently posted 14 September 1839 as date of birth of her ancestor.
:) Ancestry has uploaded a lot of Western Australia’s convict records. One clearly shows that the official record for the convict Thomas gainfully employed from as early as 1868, and was on conditional release in 1871. His eight year sentence was completed in 1872. The same digitised official record notes he embarked on the Charlotte Padbury, and my earlier post shows the date he left WA as 5 January 1878. May I note that many learned family history buffs across decades would share the following “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”. So to me, the dots between the convict departing WA in 1878 and the passenger arriving Sydney in 1879 are simply not yet joining up. Has the ship’s log been checked for any mention of him, where did he disembark etc. Just because the OP has not found him on the UK 1881 census does NOT mean the chap marrying in NSW in 1891 is him, and just because a chap arrived in October 1879 does not mean he is either the convict or the one who married in 1891. Nor does it disqualify those chaps as candidates. Simply put, the research is not yet joining the dots.
:) Earlier in the thread I effectively wrote about each family history buff being responsible for setting their own standards of ‘proof’ when determining who to include in their own tree, and that it is not my concern what standards our OP has set for her own research. I am concerned though when there’s information shared on public forums particularly when I see the chance of a shared ancestor. So when I ask fairly standard family history questions about the ancestors named in there, and I indicate I have further information, and I am not given answers that make good sense my sense of concern heightens. I become concerned about the method of research ... For example, I offered an alternative to Robert Hughes The Fatal Shore when researching WA convicts, and I noted that Hughes book addresses NSW, Norfolk Island and Tasmania and like you also noted, I noted a different timeframe. I contrast our OP’s lack of acknowledgement of that contribution (the 106 page pdf) with her acknowledgement of my armchair check of the NSW BDM online index sighting of Ellen and Edward HUNTER’s son born 1886.
:) To me, family history researching is about striving to obtain the primary records and in doing so, to learn about the context, so while it is good that our OP found Hughes book, it is also important to note that his book should not be considered a reliable authoritative book on WA convictism. Researching history (family, local, convictism or any other 'classification) does not commence with the introduction of the Internet. The first Challis Professor of History at Sydney Uni was appointed back in the 1890s. He researched and wrote on the then existing resources he found for Australian History. From memory his name was Arnold Wood. Fred Wood (his son) wrote the 1930s text book used in schools ... it was titled A Concise History of Australia. He migrated to NZ taking up a history professorship there.
:) I wonder if the WA convict records were filmed back in the 1940s as part of the AJCP (Australian Joint Copying Project) and if so, then these would likely be available in England. A quick Google search seems to show that it is so.
https://www.nla.gov.au/microform-australian-joint-copying-project
http://cms.slwa.wa.gov.au/dead_reckoning/other_material/australian_joint_copying_project
:) There are other factoids but I have much more enjoyable things to do that spend time on my PC typing replies on a sunny Sunday midday. I certainly do not make a habit of reading threads and posting at about 3 a.m. on a Sunday morning and then possible adding to a post in the pre-dawn hours. I am turning off notifications to this thread.
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adding : Pauline didn't originally ask for our help with her research so she has been very gracious about us all gate-crashing ;D But yes he is such an interesting man that we all want to help her to find out more about him.
Not sure about the term gate-crashing in this context.
Hello Australia
I am GT GT niece of Thomas Lockley who arrived Sydney 1879 and married widow Ellen A Hunter in 1891.
If anyone is doing their family tree out there for this family I would love to get in contact .
Pauline
I have very often seen requests couched in these, or similar, words.
It is often, but not always, a different way of requesting support and research help on a certain family line.
Our OP (or a very close relative of hers) phrased it differently a few months ago on the other forum thread.
http://www.familytreecircles.com/lockley-hunter-holden-reed-willcocks-of-junee-paramatta-nsw-67403.html
Saying-
“Any information on his descendants would be wonderful”
To which there was no response on that forum that I can see :(
Ros made the first kind offer in Reply#2 about a lookup to assist the search.
And just a few posts ago I see-
No problems Ros- just grateful there are people like you helping people like me.
Pauline
So no gate-crashing I can see ;)
Just the usual team doing their usual good work.
Sue
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Sue I am well aware that I was the first one to chime in and that's why the term gate-crashers was a joke against me - hence the grinning face.
As I said we all want to help find more info about him as he is such an interesting man.
adding: Pauline has expressed gratitude to everyone who has helped so is welcoming input from everyone :)
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“Pauline didn't originally ask for our help with her research.” Ros
This is accurate. I was hoping that some member of the family might pick up on the names mentioned and get in touch – eventually, if they were researching this.
One phone call would probably confirm/ deny the accuracy, dare I say. Depends on what we each know of course. I was happy to just leave the enquiry out there. That’s why I posted In Aust. ( I hadn’t really looks at my files for Australia for some time as I was engrossed in another brickwall, now virtually concluded, so was rusty)
But some splendid help was offered and so the story began to unfold
( Hope you can see the “gatecrashing” was tongue in cheek” There was no malice in that. Smile)
Even though Majm has decided to quit I will answer some comments for others if interested. I had prepared some other information that she was insistent upon regarding marriage certs etc but she can ask faster than I can provide so I will add to her latest post
“I am quite sure that some of her grandchildren did not ever refer to her as Grannie although our OP has used that word and spelling.”
It’s a generic term. The mind boggles. Is this a bit pedantic? What was she known as then? What do grandchildren call grandparents? I am known as “Nanna” if anyone wants to record that. Like this matters. Does it? Or is it evidence?
“…a farm with 2 horses, 5 cows and 230 sheep in the 1890s and 1900s at Boree would provide only a subsistence level of living for a family. Some of the properties in that district were running 15,000 head of sheep in that era”
That is disappointing news. I was hoping he had made his fortune.. But he arrived at 40yrs with nothing except determination. Maybe there’s a gold seam running just below ground. Forever the optimist.
“If the passenger provided accurate information about himself, then he was likely born 1835, 1836 or 1837, but our OP has recently posted 14 September 1839 as date of birth of her ancestor”
That was his date of birth but even the prison records, or other documents such as censuses, were slightly wide of the mark. And there is no doubt that they locked the correct person up. Most of us “history buffs” accept that there can be a slight variation regarding dates in a time that there were usually no celebrations on the day, few official documents requesting the information, or a need to remember. Just a need to survive.
. “Simply put, the research is not yet joining the dots.”
I couldn’t agree with you more. But it looks very promising to me. There are more checks I should be doing and will. Back to my first point, maybe a relative will get in contact and verify some of my research. And a full marriage cert showing his mother's maiden name should clinch it because that's not common knowledge.
“….I offered an alternative to Robert Hughes The Fatal Shore when researching WA convicts, and I noted that Hughes book addresses NSW, Norfolk Island and Tasmania and like you also noted, I noted a different timeframe. I contrast our OP’s lack of acknowledgement of that contribution …….”
Because I can’t keep up with you. However I had prepared the quote to answer you that had led me to believe he would have needed to be pardoned before heading home, but, I was listening to others who felt it was not necessary after he had served his time. Maybe these pardons were given to convicts still serving their time for whatever reason and, on rereading and noting the term “from bondage”, I now think that is the case. I only asked for opinions and clarification as to what others thought. For the benefit of others interested: -
Quote: - “The Fatal Shore” Robert Hughes Page 307
“There were only three ways in which the law might release a man from bondage. The first, though the rarest, was an absolute pardon from the governor, which restored him to all rights including that of returning to England. The second was a conditional pardon, which gave the transported person citizenship within the colony but no rights to return to England. The third was the Ticket of Leave. The convict who had been given a Ticket of Leave no longer had to work as an assigned man for a master. He was also free from the claims of forced government labour. He could spend the rest of his sentence working for himself, wherever he pleased, as long as he stayed within the colony. He was, as the phrase went, “on his own hands”, in contrast to the assigned man who was merely said to be “off the store”
“….with her acknowledgement of my armchair check of the NSW BDM online index sighting of Ellen and Edward HUNTER’s son born 1886.”
It was at this point that I felt inadequate. Once I had discovered Parthenia I didn’t bother to look more because I wanted to concentrate on the possible children of ”Thomas” . & Ellen- my blood line. But even a simple “thank you” for finding Albert.......
I’m sorry folks but this hasn’t turned out as I would have liked. I feel guilty that responses haven’t been answered fast enough but be fair and look at how many links there are and requests for proof/confirmation. I couldn’t be more grateful for some wonderful information but please don’t fall out with each other – you’re a great team with specific roles to play in the name of “family” history
Thank you all. I will perservere
Pauline
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HI
Lila Joan Lucas, Ronald George Lucas and Isabel Christina Reed 1963 Elect roll at Northcote st Swansea/ Swansea Heads, NSW. They may have been cremated at Newcastle Crem Beresfield.
I can check funeral notices for you when I am next in Newcastle.
Muss
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HI
Lila Joan Lucas, Ronald George Lucas and Isabel Christina Reed 1963 Elect roll at Northcote st Swansea/ Swansea Heads, NSW. They may have been cremated at Newcastle Crem Beresfield.
I can check funeral notices for you when I am next in Newcastle.
Muss
Isabella at Sandgate Cemetery
REED Isabel Christina 19-11-1976 Anglican 3 Section 177 Lot 54
Headstone photo: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kqs/
Buried with Birch:
Eric John aged 9 years 10 months and Lesley Gladys aged 67 (I think)
102063/1983 BIRCH Lesley Gladys parents GORDON and CHRISTINA ISABELLA
13039/1955 BIRCH Eric John parents PHILIP JOHN and LESLEY GLADYS MAYFIELD
22838/1942 BIRCH Philip John to REED Lesley Gladys LIVERPOOL
Jamjar
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HI
I can check funeral notices for you when I am next in Newcastle.
Muss
That was very kind of you Pauline
Isabella at Sandgate Cemetery
REED Isabel Christina 19-11-1976 Anglican 3 Section 177 Lot 54
Headstone photo: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kqs/
Thanks again for the info Jamjar & the link- really nice to see that headstone
Pauline
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Right,
1. Turning off notifications for a particular thread does NOT mean any RChatter has quit. It simply means that the RChatter has turned off the notifications feature, thus avoiding receiving email alerts to newer posts.
2. I see there’s been a further modification made by our OP to her reply so that the word ‘Grannie’ no longer appears in its original place. Is there a valid reason for removing it? Probably not, for the OP does acknowledge using it, albeit as a ‘generic’ term. I am quite sure in its original place it was not used as a generic term, but rather as a term of endearment. One of my third cousins is likely a direct descendant of Ellen who married Thomas in 1891. My third cousin advises me that her elderly relatives referred to Ellen as Grandmother, and that to the best of her knowledge ‘Grannie’ is not a popular word used in the family. I concur, and note that the spelling ‘ie’ is not the usual spelling found for ‘Granny’ within communities in NSW in the early to mid 20th Century. I also note that I have not provided any means for anyone to readily validate this statement. I am not in the habit of providing identifying information about living people. It is up to them to decide IF they want to make contact, and I note they are under no obligation to so do.
3. In respect to researching convictism in Western Australia – may I again request that our OP please give serious consideration to setting aside Hughes book The Fatal Shore. He was not writing about Western Australian convictism. It would be sensible if you considered re-reading his introduction. In the same way that it is poor research to say rely in how convictism operated in the British Colonies of North America in the 1700s or earlier, in order to understand the context of WA convictism in the 1860s, so it is fair to say that it is poor research to rely on The Fatal Shore for WA convictism in the 1860s for it clearly refers to New South Wales and Van Diemens Land convictism in the late 1700s and into the early decades of the 1800s.
4. One of the many benefits that RChat provides for anyone interested in family history is that among its rules are protections for living people. And that feature in turn allows many benefits including a complementary benefit – that of public access to these threads without the need to even log on or sign in or subscribe. It is only when the reader wants to contribute that the reader needs to formally choose to announce their presence. And that benefit in turn is complemented with the use of avatar names. I mention these particular complementary benefits because I notice that this thread has now been read more than 1300 times, and I suspect that some of those occasions are by relatives of my third cousin, as I am advised that they are shocked by the lack of quality to the research for Ellen and Thomas’ origins. I think it is likely that that they will continue to listen to the local community leaders including police, who regularly advise community groups for senior citizens to be alert to people claiming to be related or to have common dead relatives when it turns out that they may be scamming them or otherwise being mischievous . I will continue to leave notifications turned off on this thread. I thank those who have kindly sent PMs to me recently, and I hope I have replied to all the PMs.
There’s no reason to be deterred from family history research, but there’s every reason to strive to be mindful of the living and their lawful expectation to privacy of the individual, when seeking to make contact with people who are already aware of their NSW heritage. To me, RChat is not here to help people make contact with long lost living relatives, as there are other organisations that concentrate on that. Here’s the HOW TO thread for the Australia Board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368728.0
JM
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1. Turning off notifications for a particular thread does NOT mean any RChatter has quit. It simply means that the RChatter has turned off the notifications feature, thus avoiding receiving email alerts to newer posts.
I too turn off notifications to stop the emails, as soon as I receive a reply to a post.
including a complementary benefit – that of public access to these threads without the need to even log on or sign in or subscribe.
Yes, can be a benifit. I was very recently contacted by a 1st cousin's daughter via RC. As I was adopted in the 50s, I grew up not knowing any of my birth mother's side. My search began on RC some years ago. Although I found my mother and met her in 2010, I have known nothing of her siblings other than their first names, found on my Grandfather's death cert. So, to make contact now with a member of the family is excellent.
Having said that, I have not had any physical confirmation that the person I am in contact with, is in fact family. I guess it's a risk we all take when hoping to make contact with unknown relatives. The answer is not to provide too much personal information, to early, which I'm sure I have. ;)
Jamjar
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Reply to Majm
quote " I see there's been further modification made by our OP to her reply so that the word "grannie" no longer appears in it's original place. Is there a valid reason for removing it?"
I have not removed anything. If you look at post No 3 you will see it remains.
And of course it is a term of endearment.
Quote
" and not that the spelling of "ie" is not the usual....."
Dictionary:- Granny or Grannie n grandmother.
I really thought you were being pedantic the first time around and considered not reading more. Wished I had not
Quote"OP please gives serious consideration to setting aside Hughes book" and then..
"consider reading his introduction"
I don't have time to re-read "The Fatal Shore" and don't know how one man in one lifetime could document so much information. Applaud him. I hesitated to say the first time around that there are several refs to W.A. & Freemantle. (and "yes" it was mainly NSW) Surely London would be setting the criteria for all prisoners/ convicts regardless of the year or continent that they were sent to?
Point 4
quote "shocked by the lack of quality"i] Would this be based on the "granny" reference? And why aren't they contradicting anything? - if they are watching.
Patience. I will get there, regardless.
Quotes: -
[i]"they will continue to listen ....to the police"
"they may be scamming them"
I am speechless and feel sick at this attack. I really think you have overstepped the mark with this.
I am now considering ending this thread, which may or may not be what you want, but will continue with all the amazing and positive information that so many R.Chatters have delivered
There is always the P.M if anyone is interested.
Need to give this some thought
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Pauline
Please be reassured that the majority of people on this forum are kind and friendly people who just want to help with family history research.
Yes I agree that JM has overstepped the mark and that her post is highly offensive. Hopefully she will apologise shortly.
Ros
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Pauline
Please be reassured that the majority of people on this forum are kind and friendly people who just want to help with family history research.
Ros
Ros
Those are my sentiments exactly. I have been shown much positive, professional, helpful input by so many. Unfortunately I seem to have spent much time defending myself over petty unrelated accusations than actually searching all links and adding to my research. That will now stop.
I am hoping that you manage to get Thomas' death cert when you tackle the probate etc but if not I will. I am hoping above everything that his m.m.n is on there but would appreciate it if we could PM the results. I am happy to tell you what I am looking for.
I am now thinking that I have caused upset to his family because they do not accept what I have discovered. ( and have yet to prove conclusively - the death cert may do it, or I might find I'm wrong. Always happy to admit that) This was never my intention. They may not know. After all "my"
Thomas arrived as a free man.
Regardless I am full of admiration for Thomas - knowing as much as I do and proud that I am related. And almost 1,500 hits shows many are interested also.
I didn't quote the second part of your entry. Appreciate you saying it. Too much irritation Let it go.
Thanks again for everything. It's a waiting game now
Pauline
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Pauline
Please be reassured that the majority of people on this forum are kind and friendly people who just want to help with family history research.
Yes I agree that JM has overstepped the mark and that her post is highly offensive. Hopefully she will apologise shortly.
Ros
I agree that the majority of people on this forum are kind and friendly and just want to help with family history research so clearly I see no reason to contemplate any contrary view to that fine sentiment. It would of course be remiss of me to overlook the words that followed that sentiment. From the perspective of the test for how a fair and reasonable person reading this thread should be expected to understand it, clearly there has not been any overstepping of any mark by me nor has there been any offense given by me. It saddens me when there are instances of hectoring, and I wonder about the intent of the poster/s when I read hectoring posts.
On a less serious note, I recall my own late Gran, one of the volunteers back in the 1930s who helped transcribe the long hand entries in various NSW BDM sets of records. She was a significant person in my own childhood, I am 7th generation NSW born and bred, and proud of all my migrant ancestors, 'came free' or 'came as garrison forces' or 'transported under sentence'. I paraphrase my Gran of course, but simply put :
two and two .... agh ........ that's 22
two and two .... is ........... agh that's 4
JM
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1861 England Census.
Willenhall, Staffordshire.
Thomas Lockley, head, 49
Sarah Lockley, wife, 47.
Thomas Lockley, 21, son, um, locksmith.
George Lockey, 19, son, um.
Samuel, Lockley, 15, son, um.
Joseph Lockley, 10, son.
Henry Lockley, 7, son.
Gerry
There's a tree on FamilySearch which has linked this family to the 1861 which says the mother was Sarah Ainsworth.
However if you look for those names and ages on the GRO the likely MMN is Overend.
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Very illuminating JM
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1861 England Census.
Willenhall, Staffordshire.
Thomas Lockley, head, 49
Sarah Lockley, wife, 47.
Thomas Lockley, 21, son, um, locksmith.
George Lockey, 19, son, um.
Samuel, Lockley, 15, son, um.
Joseph Lockley, 10, son.
Henry Lockley, 7, son.
Gerry
There's a tree on FamilySearch which has linked this family to the 1861 which says the mother was Sarah Ainsworth.
However if you look for those names and ages on the GRO the likely MMN is Overend.
Yes you are correct and also:
LOCKLEY, HANNAH mmn OVEREND
GRO Reference: 1838 J Quarter in THE WOLVERHAMPTON UNION Volume 17 Page 352
LOCKLEY, MARY ANN mmn OVEREND
GRO Reference: 1844 D Quarter in MARTLEY Volume 18 Page 405
LOCKLEY, JAMES mmn OVEREND
GRO Reference: 1848 S Quarter in WOLVERHAMPTON & SEISDON Volume 17 Page 349
J.
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Thank you one and all for your contributions
I think the time has come to close this topic as there is much for me to still do, and collate, with the Australian side. I don't want to spend time with the history here, that will be another lengthy saga.
I can also be contacted via PM if any relatives want to do that.
Thanks again
Pauline.
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I did promise an update on any further developments regarding my enquiries about the family of Thomas and am pleased to say that, thanks to the support of some wonderful Roots Chatters and some new documentation, it has been confirmed that I was researching the correct person. I have now learned that not only did Thomas originate from Staffordshire, true, but also prior to settling for 44 years in Sydney he was previously in Western Australia for 14yrs.(doing his sentence) I hope that the fact that he was a once a convict has not upset anyone who did not know. This was never my intention. It was a complete surprise to my family too. But we should all be aware that research can sometimes open a can of worms! However, as his story unfolded I, and people who followed the years of research with me, genuinely say that they are full of admiration for the man. I. for one will miss him. I have now taken his line here in the UK back to the late 1600's and so am quite satisfied with that. Case closed! Time for a break Thank you all again.
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Although you do not cite the nature of your new documentation, I am sure all the team here will be pleased to hear of your outcome and delighted you chose, after all, to publish the news on the open board instead of merely by Personal Message to those requesting it.
Personally I find it regrettable that the family connections you mention may perceive Thomas' history as part of a "can of worms". It is wonderful that you do not share their prejudice.
Our nation was built upon the labour and sacrifice of such convict people.
Their fortitude and skill in dealing with adversity has placed us as a strong young nation and many of those who find a convict in their heritage boast of it.
Perhaps your family connections will find some worthwhile literature and readings to put things in a different light, and acquire a fuller education of those nation-building times.
Thorough research can be such an enlightening experience.
Sue
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Yes well done Pauline :) You were right to be proud of him. :)
Ros
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Hear, hear!! :)
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Thanks to the Global Moderator for merging the threads.
Good to read that our OP has been able to join the dots with some official NSW records, as that’s a great way to start towards establishing contact other family history buffs interested in the families in rural NSW in the years prior to WWI.
May I again mention
:) that the introduction to Robert Hughes book shows he led a team of researchers who investigated convictism in NSW, Norfolk Island and Tasmania. Hughes, of course, was based in New York, as an Art Critic among his many talents. There are many other well qualified researchers who have investigated the WA convict records. WA’s convictism was different from all other transportation systems in that it was at the request of the colony, it was only men, it was focused on rehabilitation and it was long after all the other British colonies in the Antipodes had rejected convictism. As an aside, as Thomas could read and write, he was able to communicate with his UK family via the usual mail service. He was earning an income while under sentence.
:) Australian Joint Copying Project filmed the W.A. convict records back in the 1940s, and those records had been available to researchers long before then and continue to be readily available at many public libraries both here in Australia and in the UK. Ancestry has uploaded some of the images in a commercial partnership arrangement with the Archives in W.A.
:) The parish registers of St Lukes, Junee (re the 1891 marriage) were filmed back in the 1980s and those images provided to the National Library of Australia and to SAG, Sydney at that time. They continue to be readily available. The parish register will contain the information that the bride and the groom provided to the clergyman and which the NSW BDM does not yet include in their summary registration of that marriage.
One set of grandparents for one of my parents and one set of grandparents for one of the parents of my third cousin are, of course, the same two people. My third cousin’s OTHER set of grandparents are descendants of the couple who married in 1891 at St Lukes Vicarage, Junee, NSW. So my second cousin has been interested in family history for many many decades, long before it became a fashionable hobby. There is no reason for any RChatter to assume that any descendant of the couple who has an interest in family history is somehow unaware that Thomas had been convicted of the manslaughter of a policeman. There is no reason for any RChatter to assume there’s any need to sensationalise or to supress that long held knowledge or to introduce expressions like ‘can of worms’. He is simply one of many ancestors of the current generation, no more and no less. He is not one of the many ancestors of the children of Ellen and her husband Edward Hunter.
Perhaps some RChatters have shared PMs that may have been read as discrediting me personally. If so, then to me, that is disappointing to the concept of RChat. It is not something that distracts me. I have simply taken the RChat option to block them from sending any further PMs to me. There are seven RChatters on that ignore list, most have been there for years.
I am sure that when my 3rd cousin has the time that they will consider if they wish to contact our OP to compare research on their shared ancestors, the parents of Thomas whose NSW death cert notes his 44 years in NSW and 14 years in WA.
I notice the OP has marked the thread complete.
JM
Add:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136294920 Canberra Times 14 March 1987.
... Much that is written and said about this book is quite misleading. This is not the ‘definitive’ work on the history of transportation. It lacks a thesis and adds little that is new to our understanding. Much of what is interpretative is taken from the work of others. Hughes does have some documents ‘never before consulted’ but professional historians have done considerable work on convicts over the last 30 years and have in fact used a number of documents featured. ...
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Hi Pauline
I found this chat, only today, so very new to all this. Not sure how to even contact you by another means as of yet.
I wanted to throw another piece into your puzzle, so to speak, as I am related to Charles Henry Willcocks. He was my Great Grandfather.
One of Charles Henry Willcocks sisters, Florence Willcocks married Frederick Charles Lockley. Frederick Charles was the son of Thomas Lockley.
I'm sure you know most of this already, but it explains where the connection is.