RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: maddys52 on Thursday 14 September 17 11:22 BST (UK)
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My grandfather left his family in Mackay, Qld sometime in the late 1930s, and I'm not sure what happened to him after that. Arthur was born in Greymouth, New Zealand in 1887, avoided conscription and moved to Australia around 1917 (I think) working on boats as a fireman. He married Grace WALTERS in 1924 in Sydney and had 4 children including my mother (the last of her siblings still alive). They lived in Kiama, Campsie and Mackay. I have pretty much all that can be found of him in New Zealand and Australia until 1936, including items on Trove about his being charged with gambling and SP bookies. But after he left the family I'm not sure what happened.
There is a NSW death certificate for an Arthur KELLS in 1963 which I have, but apart from being the same name and age, there is nothing on it which proves this is my Arthur. Except that the informant was Fred Empsom who was apparently a well known Sydney bookmaker and the Arthur who died was caretaker at a house in Lilli Pilli NSW. Was there a connection? I'm not sure. There is also an electoral roll for 1963 with an Arthur KELLS at this address.
I was recently told -by someone I do not know, but who contacted my brother through Geni (my heckles and suspicions raised immediately as I prefer to do my research) - that Arthur may have gone to the New Guinea gold fields, but I have no idea when.
If anyone can give any insights, suggestions or help as to what may have happened to my grandfather, I would be very thankful.
(Btw, I may not have access to a computer for few days, so please forgive me if I don't respond straight away :))
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Hi,
The 1919 NZ Electoral Roll, West Coast, Buller.
Arthur Harold Kells, Blackball, miner.
William Kells, Blackball, miner.
Annie Kells, Blackball, married.
Gerry
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Thanks Gerry,
Yes that would be Arthur and his parents. However, I do have Arthur on crew lists for the Burwah in April 1919 travelling between Mackay and Sydney, and various other crew lists after this date, so assume he wasn't living in NZ at this time.
Thanks again for looking!
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Hi,
I see the Arthur Kells as a fireman on the East Coast I guessed he just remained on the 1919 NZ Roll as you probably would if you were at sea.
I see an A Kells, 28, born NZ a crewman (trimmer) on the T. S. S Moeraki arriving in Sydney from Lyttleton NZ on 1st Feb 1916.
Gerry
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Hi
Woronora Cemetery index http://woronoracemetery-org-au.mycms.me/finding-loved-ones
has listed a Arthur HENRY Kells 22/04/1963
Muss
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Hi
Woronora Cemetery index http://woronoracemetery-org-au.mycms.me/finding-loved-ones
has listed a Arthur HENRY Kells 22/04/1963
Muss
Notice in SMH https://s26.postimg.org/v2v9ceqih/IMG_7350.jpg
KELLS. - A service for the late Mr. ARTHUR HENRY KELLS of Port Hacking was held in the Chapel of the Woronora Crematorium on Wednesday, April 24th, 1963. Privately cremated.
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Had he been in the Newcastle district in 1935/6?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/142412602?
Car and motor bike accident kills one man.
Driver is A H KELLS EDIT (one report had S on the end, most do not)
Is this one of the later newspaper sightings you mention having?
Sue
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There is a NSW death certificate for an Arthur KELLS in 1963 which I have, but apart from being the same name and age, there is nothing on it which proves this is my Arthur. Except that the informant was Fred Empsom who was apparently a well known Sydney bookmaker and the Arthur who died was caretaker at a house in Lilli Pilli NSW. Was there a connection? I'm not sure. There is also an electoral roll for 1963 with an Arthur KELLS at this address.
You did not mention the full details of the electoral roll.
1963. Caringbah
KELLS, Arthur Harold
115 Lilli Pilli Point Rd.
No occupation.
Sue
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There is no-one on the NSW Electoral roll named Fred EMPSOM.
On the D C, what is the relationship of informant to deceased?
Sue
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Hi Maddy,
there is a death on NSW BDM
1967 Arthur KELLS, father Arthur, mother Grace, district Sydney. reg 6180/1967.
Perhaps he is a son ?
Death notice ... (below)
There is a probate for this man https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1297924 which I could photograph for you if you wish.
Ros
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Thank you very much to all for your help and interest.
I see an A Kells, 28, born NZ a crewman (trimmer) on the T. S. S Moeraki arriving in Sydney from Lyttleton NZ on 1st Feb 1916.
Gerry
Thanks Gerry - actually I hadn't seen this crew list so am very grateful. There was a reference to an Arthur KELLS in NZ, manager of a gold mine in Sept 1916 and I had wondered if this was my Arthur, but if he was working on boats in Feb 1916 it sounds unlikely, so that helps a lot. ;)
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Thanks too muss and cup-of-life. I have the cremation details on the death certificate, but good to see the death notice. The death cert has name "Arthur KELLS", the cremation and death notice "Arthur Henry KELLS", whilst the electoral roll (same address as on the death cert) has "Arthur Harold KELLS". I suspect it was Arthur Harold, as the informant obviously knew very little about Arthur.
I'm so sorry Sparrett! I must have been typing too quickly - the informant was Fred J EMPSON, "no relation, 70 Gilbert St, Dover Heights". I have an idea the house at Lilli Pilli was owned by Empson's son, but I can't remember where I read that, and can't find it now in my notes.
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Had he been in the Newcastle district in 1935/6?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/142412602?
Car and motor bike accident kills one man.
Driver is A H KELLS EDIT (one report had S on the end, most do not)
Is this one of the later newspaper sightings you mention having?
Sue
I don't think is my Arthur, though I'm not certain. I know that my Arthur was in Kiama in June 1934 till at least Jan 1935, and Mackay in April 1936. I'd be surprised if he had lived at Centennial Park in between. I suspect that this article may be referring to Arthur Henry KELL who had an upholstery company in Sydney around this time.
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Hi Maddy,
there is a death on NSW BDM
1967 Arthur KELLS, father Arthur, mother Grace, district Sydney. reg 6180/1967.
Perhaps he is a son ?
Death notice ... (below)
There is a probate for this man https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1297924 which I could photograph for you if you wish.
Ros
And thank you again Ros - this is my Uncle - you very kindly photographed this probate package for me last year ;D ;D
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I have a remarkable memory Maddy ;D
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I don't think is my Arthur, though I'm not certain. I know that my Arthur was in Kiama in June 1934 till at least Jan 1935, and Mackay in April 1936. I'd be surprised if he had lived at Centennial Park in between. I suspect that this article may be referring to Arthur Henry KELL who had an upholstery company in Sydney around this time.
I agree with you.
Wrong chap.
Can you comment further on Fred EMPSOM?
Sue
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I'm only assuming based on the name and address on the death cert. I think Fred Joseph EMPSON (1900-1976) was the son of Charles Lowther EMPSON and Amy ALLISON (who married in 1895 and had at least 13 children between 1895 and 1917) - all in Sydney. Fred is described in newspapers in the 1940s as "one of five bookmaking brothers", and there are lots of mentions of him on Trove in relation to horse racing, and also yachting.
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There is no-one on the NSW Electoral roll named Fred EMPSOM.
Sue
Ah, so the problem here was a misspelled surname.
Except that the informant was Fred Empsom who was apparently a well known Sydney bookmaker
I'm only assuming based on the name and address on the death cert. I think Fred Joseph EMPSON (1900-1976) was the son of Charles Lowther EMPSON and Amy ALLISON (who married in 1895 and had at least 13 children between 1895 and 1917) - all in Sydney. Fred is described in newspapers in the 1940s as "one of five bookmaking brothers", and there are lots of mentions of him on Trove in relation to horse racing, and also yachting.
On the D C, what is the relationship of informant to deceased?
Sue
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Maddy,
The person at 115 Lilli Pilli Point Rd was not Frederick Joseph EMPSON.
1963 Electoral Roll
115 Lilli Pilli Point Rd, Caringbah
EMPSON, Frederick Charles, Dentist
EMPSON, Pamela May. HD
ADDING QUERY
What exactly is the name written on the death certificate?
Sue
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Hi Sue,
Yes, I know Fred J EMPSON did not live there, as I mentioned in reply #11, the informant was "Fred J EMPSON, no relation, 70 Gilbert St, Dover Heights". ;)
When I first got the death certificate I tried to find out a bit about the informant and the address where this Arthur was living in Lilli Pilli, but can't seem to locate the notes I made at the time, but I did think the house was owned by Fred J's son, so maybe that electoral roll is where I got that idea.
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There is a NSW death certificate for an Arthur KELLS in 1963 which I have, but apart from being the same name and age, there is nothing on it which proves this is my Arthur. Except that the informant was Fred Empsom who was apparently a well known Sydney bookmaker and the Arthur who died was caretaker at a house in Lilli Pilli NSW. Was there a connection? I'm not sure. There is also an electoral roll for 1963 with an Arthur KELLS at this address.
Your opening post includes the paragraph above.
So, to clarify,
The informant was Fred EMPSOM. Actually Frederick J EMPSON?
A son (so you think) of this man, whose name was Frederick Charles EMPSON lived at the house in 1963.
You have reason to think he owned the house. (As opposed to being a tennant of the house)
Under the column for Occupation of the deceased on the cetificate, does it say Arthur was the caretaker of the property 115 Lilli Pilli Point Rd.?
OR does it simply say occupation, Caretaker?
As mentioned, the electoral roll says, no occ.
Sue
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Hi Sue, I'm sorry if I've made this confusing. I'll attach the death certificate.
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The image has indeed clarified things.
as you say,it is made out in the name Arthur KELLS.
The Cemetery record and death notice is Arthur Henry KELLS
The electoral Roll for the address is Arthur Harold KELLS.
The Electoral roll information will have been provided by the man himself. The other entries above were "guesswork" on the behalf of others.
He is the only one of the name Arthur Harold KELLS on the electoral roll and drops off the roll after the recorded death of Arthur Henry KELLS .
Nothing in all this is able to conclusively say you have the right man, but there is a strong likliehood.
Sue
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Thanks Sue, yes I think you're probably right.
I'm wondering if Arthur Harold KELLS appears on any electoral rolls between 1935 and 1963? I have both of these, but nothing in between? I've contacted the NSW and QLD State Libraries, but am still waiting for a reply from them. Of course, he could be anywhere.
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According to my access to the rolls, the name does not appear again until 1963
If this is the correct woman Grace KELLS still calls herself wife in October 1945.
Daily Mercury, McKay
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/170634808
Sue
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Thanks again Sue,
Yes, that is my grandmother. She stayed in Mackay but moved to Sydney in 1949 with my mother, then back to Mackay in 1967 after my Uncle's death. I guess what happened to Arthur in the intervening years (assuming it is him who died at Lilli Pill) is one of those things that will always remain a mystery.
thanks again to everyone for your contributions. :)
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Thank you once again to everyone who was interested in this thread. Just in case you're still interested ... in thinking about it more I did a little more research about the son of the informant on the death cert and discovered someone of the same name and occupation still alive in the Sydney White Pages. (I've asked a moderator to remove his name from the thread in accordance with rootschat policy ;)).
I wrote to him, and he replied with some lovely memories and some more details about Arthur Harold KELLS who indeed was caretaker for Fred J EMPSON's house at Lilli Pilli Point Rd from at least 1958. He even sent me a couple of photographs of Arthur - my Mother and I were completely overwhelmed and so grateful!
So whilst I don't know where he was from the late 30s till the late 50s, I now do know what happened to my grandfather. :)
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That is a wonderful ending to journey of searching.
Rootschat shines through again ;D
Sue