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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Karen McDonald on Thursday 14 September 17 14:09 BST (UK)
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Hello and sorry that this is VERY vague..! ::)
I am trying to find a PECK family who had a farm during the Second World War on which at least one German prisoner of war was given work. Mrs Peck's first name was ROSE.
The POW in question was Emil Lautenbach, born in 1913 in Hamburg.
He was taken prisoner in France, seriously wounded with bullet wounds to the chest/stomach. He was later transported to England, where he worked on a farm owned by the Peck family.
The family treated him extremely well. They even insisted on having his much younger brother Gustav (the lad was around 12 years old) sent to them after the war, so that they could care for him for a while and provide him with enough to eat.
The Lautenbach family were so grateful to the Pecks that Emil and his wife named their daughter Birgit Rose, born 1948, in honour of Mrs Peck.
They even pronounce "Rose" in the English way, instead of the German "Rosa".
I have lived in Germany for 30 years. We moved last year and Birgit is now our landlady - and an absolutely wonderful person. I don't know if it is the fact that she now has a Brit living next door ;D, but she would love to find out more about the Peck family.
Her father and uncle are both deceased and no family records, photos, etc. exist from that time. Birgit does not know how to start looking, so I suggested that I try to help.
I realise that our "information" is extremely sparse, but maybe it rings a bell with someone. Die Hoffnung stirbt zuletzt (hope dies last), as the Germans say.
I would be extremely grateful for any information whatsoever, however insignificant it may seem.
Many thanks in advance,
Karen
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Any idea of where the farm was?
Might get some help here:
https://www.dd-wast.de/en/assets.html
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There were nearly seventy people called Rose Peck at the outbreak of WW2, without some idea of whereabouts in England this was, it is hard to narrow down a likely person.
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Thanks for the speedy replies. I know it's all very vague, but Birgit has no further information.
I have just scrolled through the website which nanny jan suggested (many thanks!). The English version says that replies may take up to 12 months(!). It is a bit confusing as regards fees.
The German version is (unsurprisingly) much clearer, but the things which can be requested are clearly listed; the only thing we could click on which might help is the POW records bit. However, they want to know exactly where and when Emil was taken prisoner - and we don't know that.
The other sections are of no help to us: research into place of burial (we know that), where the person is now (deceased), etc.
I am going to write them a short mail (in German) to see whether they might be able to help us after all (and how much it might cost!). :)
Thanks again,
Karen
EDIT: I have sent off the mail and have received an automatic reply telling me that, in individual cases, private requests can take up to 12 months. So it's not just the English requests which can take ages... Oh, well. You never know. We might strike lucky!
K.
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There may be some information held by the National Archives, I put Lautenbach into their search engine and there might be a possibility in some records of interviews with German POWs.
My other thought was that possibly Emil's service records still exist in Germany which may or may not be helpful as to where Emil was sent in the UK.
Does Birgit Rose have any idea of what sort of farm, was he planting crops etc or looking after animals? That might help narrow down an area.
Another thought is Gustav still living and if yes does he have any idea where the farm was? Or does any family of his know anything?
Are there any photos of the time?
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Hello Gibel,
Birgit has no idea what kind of farm it was. Her father (Emil) and uncle (Gustav) are both deceased.
We have nothing further to go on, I'm afraid. No photos, no documents...
I'll see what I can find out via the National Archives.
Thanks,
Karen
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There were nearly seventy people called Rose Peck at the outbreak of WW2, without some idea of whereabouts in England this was, it is hard to narrow down a likely person.
totally agree - but - how many lived on a farm - a tedious task - but what about checking out the 1939 register at the outbreak of WW2 and seeing if there is a Rose Peck living on a farm ??
added
on a farm in Preshute Without ,Wiltshire there is a lady named Rose Peck with her husband Charles just before WW1 - Charles is 46 and Rose is 29 - so in 1942 ish she would be around 60 - has Birgit any idea how old Rose was when her dad was there - this is just an example of a possibility - that particular Rose died in 1948 aged 66.......is this the type of road we are looking to go down ??
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Hello garstonite,
Many thanks indeed for that!
Birgit has absolutely no idea about ages, etc. However, she does know that just about everything she had as a baby (clothes, food, even a pot used to boil her baby milk) came from the Peck family. There was obviously some contact after the war.
Birgit was born in August 1948 - the year in which the Rose you found died. That is, however, no reason for the family to have broken off the contact.
Birgit is on holiday this week. I was hoping to surprise her on her return with some information, but it looks as though I'll have to be patient. :)
I'll see if she can contact her uncle's family to see if any of them have a little more information. Someone must know something...
Thanks again,
Karen
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There were nearly seventy people called Rose Peck at the outbreak of WW2, without some idea of whereabouts in England this was, it is hard to narrow down a likely person.
totally agree - but - how many lived on a farm - a tedious task - but what about checking out the 1939 register at the outbreak of WW2 and seeing if there is a Rose Peck living on a farm ??
added
on a farm in Preshute Without ,Wiltshire there is a lady named Rose Peck with her husband Charles just before WW1 - Charles is 46 and Rose is 29 - so in 1942 ish she would be around 60 - has Birgit any idea how old Rose was when her dad was there - this is just an example of a possibility - that particular Rose died in 1948 aged 66.......is this the type of road we are looking to go down ??
I thought about that but didn't have time to search.
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There is a Marriage in 1902 at Marlborough Wiltshire of a Charles Peck and a Rose Ferris.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Thanks, William.
We really, really need to find out roughly where Emil was held in England.
I have sent out lots of messages today: Red Cross, Farmers' Union and a whole lot more.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that something might turn up...
Thanks again,
Karen
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Probably just a coincidence,but as well as the person Garstonite identified,there is a Rose Peck at Folly Farm,Chiseldon,Swindon to WW1.There was an army camp at Chiseldon that had German and Italian POWs at the end of WW2.
Regards
Roger
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I don't know if it is any help, but I can definitely confirm there were pow's working on farms in Wiltshire. I remember my Mum and aunts talking about them going past where they lived. The family home was about 10-15 miles from the area suggested in the previous replies.
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Thanks for that. I'll see what I can find on Folly Farm.
K.
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There is a local history group at Chiseldon,perhaps it would be worth contacting them
http://www.chiseldonlhg.org.uk
Regards
Roger
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Thanks, Roger!
I've just sent them a mail.
Oh, wouldn't it be great if that was our Rose..! :D
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Probably just a coincidence,but as well as the person Garstonite identified,there is a Rose Peck at Folly Farm,Chiseldon,Swindon to WW1.There was an army camp at Chiseldon that had German and Italian POWs at the end of WW2.
Regards
Roger
I have just spoken to the man who now owns Folly Farm. He only bought it a few years back, from a family named Whatley. There was no house to speak of - everything had fallen into disrepair. Sounds as though the current owners have put a lot of work into it, as it is now a working farm again.
The man knows absolutely nothing about the history of the farm around WWII, unfortunately.
I'll see if I can track down the Whatleys.
The search continues...
Karen
UPDATE: The Mr Whatley I have just spoken to said that his brother knows a lot more about the history of the farm. He is on holiday, but will be back soon. I can call him at the beginning of next week.
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added
on a farm in Preshute Without ,Wiltshire there is a lady named Rose Peck with her husband Charles just before WW1 - Charles is 46 and Rose is 29 - so in 1942 ish she would be around 60 - has Birgit any idea how old Rose was when her dad was there - this is just an example of a possibility - that particular Rose died in 1948 aged 66.......is this the type of road we are looking to go down ??
Hi garstonite,
Do you by any chance have a name for the farm?
Thanks,
Karen
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There is a Marriage in 1902 at Marlborough Wiltshire of a Charles Peck and a Rose Ferris.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
Hello William,
Sorry to bother you, but do you have any more info on that?
Thanks very much,
Karen
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Hi garstonite,
Sorry to trouble you again, but do you have any more info on Charles & Rose?
Thanks again,
Karen
There were nearly seventy people called Rose Peck at the outbreak of WW2, without some idea of whereabouts in England this was, it is hard to narrow down a likely person.
totally agree - but - how many lived on a farm - a tedious task - but what about checking out the 1939 register at the outbreak of WW2 and seeing if there is a Rose Peck living on a farm ??
added
on a farm in Preshute Without ,Wiltshire there is a lady named Rose Peck with her husband Charles just before WW1 - Charles is 46 and Rose is 29 - so in 1942 ish she would be around 60 - has Birgit any idea how old Rose was when her dad was there - this is just an example of a possibility - that particular Rose died in 1948 aged 66.......is this the type of road we are looking to go down ??
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Hi all,
Birgit is back from holiday so I went next door and interrogated her this morning. ;D
She knows nothing more than what she said before. She got out a box of old photos and showed me one with washing on a line - her baby things, sent over by the Peck family. How sweet is that?! Her parents took photos of the nappies & Co. from England. I thought it was lovely.
Anyway, we are now going to try a different road. Birgit is not in contact with her cousins, the children of deceased Uncle Gustav. If she had details for them, she would call, she said. So I consulted Auntie Goggle and Birgit now has contact details for the 3 cousins.
It is a bit of a long shot, but maybe Gustav told his children about his time in England and maybe one or more of them can remember something that might help us.
Fingers crossed!
Karen
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Karen:
youngtug came up with these resources:
http://theconversation.com/what-happened-to-german-prisoners-of-war-in-britain-after-hitlers-defeat-74859
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-day-that-deutschland-died-retracing-the-fate-of-captured-axis-soldiers-at-the-end-of-ww2-10216869.html
http://www.swindonweb.com/index.asp?m=8&s=116&ss=763
And Cris found the marriage of Charles and Rose:
Charles Peck
Gender:
Male
Age:
37
Birth Date:
abt 1865
Marriage Date:
15 Feb 1902
Marriage Place:
Overton, Wiltshire, England
Search Photos:
Search for 'Overton' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Father:
James Peck
Spouse:
Rose Farris
Hope this can be of some help!
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Hi Karen....Just to add to Badger's post, in 1911 there were no children of the marriage, I haven't been able to find any born after 1911.
Cris
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Karen:
youngtug came up with these resources:
Thanks very much indeed for all that, Badger!
The links are interesting, even though they are also very sad in places. I've just spent nearly an hour reading them, although I wanted an early night..!
Birgit said her father was allowed home almost as soon as the war was over, as far as she knows. A lot of the POWs were apparently held for much longer - I hadn't been aware of that.
The marriage data sounds promising. I can hardly bear the suspense of waiting for Birgit to talk to her cousins!
Thanks again to you, Cris and Youngtug,
Karen
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Hi Karen....Just to add to Badger's post, in 1911 there were no children of the marriage, I haven't been able to find any born after 1911.
Cris
Many thanks for that, Cris.
If they hadn't had any kiddies after 9 years of marriage, there's a good chance it stayed that way.
I try so hard not to read too much into these things, but if it is the "right" Rose, maybe that is what made her so willing to help Gustav (who went to the farm when he was 12 or 13 years old)...
The suspense is almost unbearable.
K.
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Quick summary. :)
Scotsannie invested a great deal of time and effort (thanks again, Annie!) in trying to find "our" Rose, but I am afraid that we are going to have to discount the 2 ladies she unearthed (figuratively speaking ;D).
I say "2 ladies", as there are plainly records for 2 different people in the data which she sent me. I'll call them Rose 1 and Rose 2.
Sometimes it's not a case of finding the right person, but eliminating the wrong people, so I'm not that depressed. (No. I'm not. Really. :'()
Just in case anyone can help, here, in a nutshell, is what Scotsannie sent me:
Rose 1:
Rose Peck, born Greenaway, 07.07.1886 in Chiseldon, Wilts.
1906, marriage to John Peck
Had 2 sons.
1915, death of John Peck.
1917, marriage to Ernest Simkin
1917, birth of daughter Iris
1918, Residence: Ludgershall, Wilts.
1919, emigration to Australia
1974, death in Australia
Name:Rose PeckAge in 1911:24Estimated birth year:abt 1887Relation to Head:WifeGender:FemaleBirth Place:PreshuteCivil Parish:ChisledonSearch Photos:Search for 'Chisledon' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collectionCounty/Island:WiltshireCountry:EnglandStreet address:Fally Farm, Chisledon, WiltsMarital Status:MarriedYears Married:4Estimated Marriage Year:1907Registration district:SwindonRegistration District Number:240Sub-registration district:SwindonED, institution, or vessel:6Household schedule number:35Piece:11772Household Members:
Name Age
John Peck 27
Rose Peck 24
Arthur Peck 4
Tom Peck 2
Thomas Greenaway 26
Rose 2:
Name: Rose Peck
Death Age:66
Birth Date:abt 1882
Registration Date:Mar 1948
Registration district:Devizes
Inferred County:Wiltshire
Volume:7c
I am eliminating Rose 1 as
a) she married Ernest Simkin
b) she moved to Australia with him in 1919, where they had children and where she died in 1974.
OK, we can't be sure, but the chances of her going back to Folly Farm (I think it must be a typo in the record where it is shown as Fally) during WWII under the name of Peck and then going back to Australia to live and die as Simkin are fairly remote.
Also, Folly Farm was sold in 1947. I am in contact with previous owners in the hope of finding out a bit more, just to be on the safe side.
I am eliminating Rose 2 as she died in March 1948.
This is not conclusive as regards looking after young Gustav after the war. However, I found out yesterday that Rose Peck was officially noted as Godparent in Birgit Rose's christening certificate. Birgit was born in August 1948 and I would like to stick my neck out and presume that Rose Peck was indeed alive when she was made Godmother.
Being a Godparent was taken extremely seriously in Germany in those days. It was an honour to be asked and carried a great deal of responsibility, should anything happen to the kiddy's parents.
I am now trying to find out whether Rose Peck's address in England was noted by the church in Hamburg at the time of Birgit's christening. Could take a while to find out and it would almost be too much to hope for, but you never know...
Karen
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Hi Karen...Just read back to your first post.....am I right in that the only information you actually had was the name Rose Peck and that she lived /owned a farm, but no knowledge of where the farm was? Somehow the search has been concentrated in the Swindon area. Let's hope Birgitt's cousins know a few more scraps of information it would be so good to help Birgitt make contact with the family
Cris
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Rose Greenaway b.07.07.1886 Preshute married John Peck b.1883 Wiltshire occupation Stableman died 1915 Wiltshire. They had children: Arthur Albert Peck b.1907 Pewsey Wiltshire. Harry John Peck b.1908 Pewsey Wiltshire. Margaret Peck b.1911 Pewsey Wiltshire.From here; http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/boards/board/trying_to_find/thread/460793
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Hi Cris,
Yes, that is the extent of what we know. Not much, I'm afraid.
I had originally hoped that one of Rose's descendants (or a friend, neighbour, etc.) might recognise the story and get in touch. A lot of German POWs were apparently treated very well, but I think that the fact that Emil's little brother was invited over to be taken care of might be a little more unusual.
Birgit hasn't spoken to her cousins for getting on for 50 years...she is preparing herself for the 'phone call(s). She is not as impulsive as me! ;D
Karen
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Hi Tug,
Thanks for that. If Scotsannie's info is correct, that Rose emigrated to Oz in 1919 and died there in 1974.
We are going to have to wait until Birgit has spoken to her cousin(s), I'm afraid.
Thanks again for your help!
Karen
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Interim update:
I have tried contacting the church where Birgit was christened. They answer the 'phone for a period of 2 minutes every 3 months (OK, slight exaggeration ;D) - I'll try again on Monday, the next possibility - and they have not replied to our mails (yet).
General concensus of opinion here is that the records would probably not show Rose's address anyway, but I'm not going to give up on this one until we have a definite answer from the church.
The National Archives say that the records for German POWs in England were all handed over to the International Red Cross. I'm now putting out feelers in that direction, too...
Karen
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I hope your evident determination is rewarded.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks! ;D
I feel like a Jack Russell sometimes - I don't want to let go of what I'm chasing..!
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Could someone look up 'Rose F I Peek', born 1897, living in Melford Suffolk on 1939, as her husband, Harry Ernest Peck is an agricultural worker when she dies.
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Could someone look up 'Rose F I Peek', born 1897, living in Melford Suffolk on 1939, as her husband, Harry Ernest Peck is an agricultural worker when she dies.
Seems to relate to this couple.
Marriages Dec 1922
ELLINOR Rose A F E to Peck Sudbury 4a 1985
PECK Harry E to Ellinor Sudbury 4a 1985
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Yes, I know who the couple are, I just wanted to know if they are agricultural labourers or farmers in 1939.
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Yes,they are listed on a farm in 1939,but I don't think it is allowed to publish details.Let's hope Karen has access to FindMyPast.
Regards
Roger
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Rose (and Harry) are in several trees on Ancestry.
Births September quarter 1897
Rosanna Florence E Ellinore Stow, S. (marries as Ellinor)
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The 136th Station Hospital was at Acton near (Long) Melford,which apparently also treated German POWs,and there was an internment camp nearby.The Hospital would have been about 5 to 10 miles from the farm address.
Regards
Roger
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Yes,they are listed on a farm in 1939,but I don't think it is allowed to publish details.Let's hope Karen has access to FindMyPast.
Regards
Roger
Hi everyone,
Thanks for taking up the needle-in-a-haystack-task again! :-*
Unfortunately, I no longer have access to things like Ancestry and FindMyPast - I hadn't done any (English) research for a couple of years and everything has lapsed...
I have just spent an hour googling and trawling through all manner of things on the Internet connected to Melford, POWs, etc.
It's grey and wet here, so why not. :)
Karen
Edit: I have finally changed my Avatar. The Daytona (motorbike) was sold ages ago. Woofy is much more beautiful. :)
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The address is actually a village within the Long Melford Rural District. It is to the east of Long Melford. The village has 2 words to its name, the first word is the opposite of big, the second word has 12 letters.
The village has a history society who may be able to help.
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The address is actually a village within the Long Melford Rural District. It is to the east of Long Melford. The village has 2 words to its name, the first word is the opposite of big, the second word has 12 letters.
The village has a history society who may be able to help.
Thanks, Gibel! I have just applied my policeman's daughter's sleuthing skills and have found it. ;D
I'll give the HS a go, but there are precious few references to war stuff on their website. We'll see what comes up.
Thanks again!
Karen
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I'm not sure I recognise the address I was alluding to from that description.However I have now found two newspaper snipppets which refer to:-
1...the daughter of Mr & Mrs H.E.Peek(sic),Red Barn Farm,Leavenheath..." (1944)
2..Gnr.(name given,but omitted here) Peck,Red Barn Farm,Leavenheath home on leave...(1945)
Both refer to marriages I think(I can only view a small section)
Regards
Roger
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I've just had a thought... (Ouch! ;D)
Would a farmer (as farm owner) have been referred to as "Agricultural labourer" in census data?
The thing is, Emil (and Gustav) was taken care of on a farm and the people from the farm later sent at least one care packet to Germany. I was just wondering whether a farm labourer from that time would have had the means to look after a foreign POW and send parcels of food, clothing, etc. to a foreign country.
I'm not trying to elevate Rose & Co. into the landed gentry, but it is a train of thought which is occupying my brain today...
Karen
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I'm not sure I recognise the address I was alluding to from that description.However I have now found two newspaper snipppets which refer to:-
1...the daughter of Mr & Mrs H.E.Peek(sic),Red Barn Farm,Leavenheath..." (1944)
2..Gnr.(name given,but omitted here) Peck,Red Barn Farm,Leavenheath home on leave...(1945)
Both refer to marriages I think(I can only view a small section)
Regards
Roger
Thanks for that, Roger. I've just googled it, but not a lot comes up. It looks like the farm is now (or was recently) owned by an IT chappie.
I am making a note of everything that gets added to this thread and hope that we will indeed get to the bottom of it all.
Thanks again,
Karen
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Without giving the actual description,Harry Peck was probably in charge of a number of other men at the start of WW2.
Regards
Roger
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As far as I can tell there were two children born to the Pecks in the mid 1920s(as per the marriage annoucements in the 1940s) and both died in 1998.
Regards
Roger
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OK, thanks.
I just hope that a) we find the right Pecks and b) there are some descendants still alive...
It would be awful if we were a few years (or even less) too late with our questions.
Karen
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I was going by the map on FindMyPast obviously didn't investigate enough sorry about that!
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Son:
Herbert James Peck died 1998 and probate, grant and will.
Daughter:
Doris May Ruddy died 1998, probate grant only.
Herbert James Peck married Pearl M E Nunn, and Pearl died in 2011.
Obituary:
http://announcements.johnstonpress.co.uk/obituaries/newmarketjournal-uk/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=182604574
I suggested Rose Peck married to Harry, because I looked through all the probate records for a Rose Peck, and she was the only one I found with an agricultural association. I agree that I would have been happier if I had found 'farmer', but I believed it was worth investigating.
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I'm sure it's a very good find and well worth continuing to investigate,Chempat.
Regards
Roger
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Link to a gravestone, if you ask for a better image the reasons you give will be linked to the image and available for other people to contact you:
http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?grave=261354&scrwidth=2400
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Hi everybody,
I wasn't ignoring you all! :)
I am very grateful for your help and am keeping notes on everyrthing which you have discovered/suggested so far.
However...Birigt has started contacting her cousins. :) :) :) She has only managed to get through to one so far, and she could only recall little anecdotes which her father (Gustav) had told her. She didn't even know Mrs Peck's first name, let alone where in England they live(d).
With a bit of luck her older sister(s) will know a little more. Fingers crossed!
So watch this space... (But don't hold your breath!) ;D
Who knows - we may find out where the farm is/was, or Rose's husband's name. Something. However small...
BTW, the cousin said that there was even an English newspaper article back then about young Gustav from Hamburg being looked after by the Pecks. Another needle in a haystack, but once we get one little clue, it might help us find that.
Karen
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Hi everybody!
GOOD NEWS! We have made (pretty big) progress!
Any idea of where the farm was?
Might get some help here:
https://www.dd-wast.de/en/assets.html
The DD has replied! We know where Emil was during his time as a POW. (Birgit is very excited about all this - and so am I!)
Many thanks to everybody who helped us a few weeks back. I am afraid to have to tell you that Wiltshire and Suffolk play no role in Emil's story. But at least we now have something concrete to go on.
According to the Deutsche Dienststelle in Berlin, Emil was taken prisoner in France in August 1944.
Following a number of hospital stays, including 4 months in Oaklands Emerg. Hospital (Manchester?), he was sent to the following places on the dates shown:
03.01.1945: Camp 18, Featherstone Park, Haltwhistle, Northumberland
05.03.1945: Camp 191, Crewe Hall, Crewe, Cheshire
28.02.1946: Camp 296, Racecourse Camp, Doncaster, West Riding, Yorkshire OR Ravenfield Park, Rotherham, West Riding, Yorkshire
04.07.1946: Camp 17, Lodge Moor Camp, Sheffield, West Riding, Yorkshire OR London W.2.
06.07.1947: Camp 19, Happendon Camp, Douglas, Lanarkshire
01.08.1947: Returned to Germany
03.08.1947: Released from captivity
So...
He spent a year at Camp 191, 4 months at Camp 296 and 1 year at Camp 17.
As the story goes that the Peck family nursed him to health before he started working, we may be allowed to assume that the Pecks lived near the first camp, i.e. Camp 191 in Crewe, Cheshire.
We can't, however, rule out Camp 17, where he later also spent 1 year. (I have no idea what the "or London" bit means, unfortunately.)
So now we need to find some Pecks (and, in particular, a Rose Peck) in/near Crewe and/or Sheffield during WWII. Easy as that. Or not..! ;D
Fingers crossed!
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Well done!
And I think I have a Crewe or Crewekern connection. I'll check and let you know!
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Have you considered writing a small article for the newspapers, in the hope that someone may recognise the name, e.g. in here:
http://www.crewechronicle.co.uk/about-us/
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That is good news but are there any more clues on Rose Peck? No more names? Her father, husband or siblings? Even a mention such as Rose was a young girl would help. Seems strange only Roses name has been remembered down through time , but you are a good few steps nearer now.
Cris
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May be just a coincidence but there is a Pecks House Farm in Macklesfield Cheshire....not too far from Crewe. The address is Pecks House farm, Rushton Spencer, Macclesfield and the owner appears to be a W.Wood now.
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@chempat: That's a good idea. I'll give that a go, thanks!
@cris: I'll check out the farm, thanks.
All we know is Rose's name. I found details for Gustav's daughters (Birgit's cousins) and she has spoken to one of them. Unfortunately, the cousin only knew a few little snippets about Gustav's stays in England, and nothing about Emil's time there.
The one cousin who might know more said she would call back, but didn't. Maybe she will, but Birigt can't pressure her. They haven't seen each other since childhood.
Karen
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I was so excited about Birgit's news yesterday that I went to bed thinking about it and woke up thinking about it. ;D Today is a (one-off) public holiday in Germany, so I'm going to get the keyboard working hard.
Two things have occurred to me:
1. Maybe the second longer time period in the DD list (Camp 17, Lodge Moor Camp, Sheffield) would be a better bet for the time Emil spent on the farm. Reason: Lots of things I read online yesterday evening make it sound as though a large number of German prisoners were first sent to work on farms after the end of the war.
2. I have been concentrating on ROSE Peck up until now, because that is how her name is entered in Birgit's christening certificate and that is how Birgit's middle name is written.
However, "Rose" is also a German name (person and flower), but the "e" on the end is pronounced here, so the name is pronounced more like the English name "Rosa".
It seems unlikely that Mrs. Peck was at the christening. If she had been there, I think the family would have mentioned it as some time to Birgit.
So...if Emil (and his wife) had said to the registrar that Birgit should be christened "Brigit Rosa", it would have been written here with an "e", not an "a". (Am I rambling!?)
Yesterday evening sdbadger found a snippet re: the death of a Rosa Peck in Stockport in 1960. That's not far away. I'll follow that up.
Bottom line:
To start with, I'd like to concentrate on finding a Rose/Rosa Peck (or family) who, during the war, had a farm near Camp 17, Sheffield.
That should narrow it down a bit. If that doesn't help, I'll extend it to the other camp areas.
It's getting exciting! ;D ::)
Karen
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Hi all,
There is a Community Heritage Project for the camp at Redmires (Camp 17) on Facebook. As an absolute FB-Non-User, I have given in and signed up and am waiting for the group to grant me access. Fingers crossed!
Also, I am waiting to be approved by Sheffield History, so that I can ask them for help.
All this waiting... ::)
Karen
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I'been looking for any Rose Pecks in the 1939 National Identity Register just under Yorkshire and then under Sheffield, Rotherham, Doncaster etc. One looked possibly interesting but looking on some electoral rolls wasn't. I used to live in the area so have some idea of the relevant council areas before 1974) I wonder if the right Rose Peck was born after 1915 and wouldn't show on the 1939?
If it was at Lodge Moor Emil met Rose the farm could have been over the border in Derbyshire. Maybe a letter to the local Sheffield paper might have some success.
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Do you know Emil's rank etc and what he was in army or Air Force.
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I've also looked all over Cheshire on the 1939 NI Register with again no success. I'll keep trying ans see if I get any more success.
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Hi Gibel,
I really appreciate your efforts!
Unfortunately, we have no idea how old Rose/Rosa is/was. She is named as Godmother in Birgit's christening certificate in early 1949 and she took care of Emil during WWII and then his baby brother after the war, so I would be surprised if she was born after 1915, but I can't be sure of anything at all.
Emil was Oberleutnant, army.
Best regards,
Karen
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A very long shot but the only death for a Rose or Rosa Peck,1947-1960 in the north of England was in Stockport registration district march 1960, aged 82.
Mike
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A very long shot but the only death for a Rose or Rosa Peck,1947-1960 in the north of England was in Stockport registration district march 1960, aged 82.
Mike
Thanks very much, Mike!
sdbadger found a little (newspaper?) snippet about the death of a Rosa Peck in Stockport in 1960, but her age was not mentioned.
Stockport is only about 30 miles from Sheffield/Camp 17. Really close!
Do you have any more on her?! :)
If that is "our" Rose/Rosa, she would have been around 70 when she helped Emil. I had always had the idea that she might have been an older lady.
She may well have already been a widow by then...
I WISH we knew more!!!
And I hope that our Rose/Rosa had children, so that we can find someone to say thanks to after all these years...
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It is also not that far from Crewe hall, but the move to Sheffield could also have been just moving his administrative details there, he may have stayed on the same farm all the time.
Shame we cannot find Rose or Rosa on the 1939, that would be really useful
Mike
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Might contain some useful information:
http://timecoast1951.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/new-book-embracing-enemy-on-crewe-pows.html
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Just trying to think outside the box could the surname be Beck not Peck?
I thought that the POWs went out daily to the farms rather than living on the farms but I could have got that wrong!
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After Karen's recent comments about the pronunciation and spelling of Rose/Rosa, I was starting to think on similar lines to Gibel's last post, except I was thinking Pack rather than Beck.
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I've found the Ravenfield camp in Rotherham which was at Ravenfield Park. That's near Conisborough where ther was a Rose Peck in 1939 but nothing agricultural. There are write ups on the camp which states that POWs went out to do people's gardens.
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London W2 was Hyde Park Terrace apparently so no farming connections!
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I've found the answer to my question above.
Before VE Day POWs were transported daily to their place of work after VE small groups of prisoners or singles were allowed to live on a farm.
Officers could choose to work but didn't have to.
It looks to me more likely that Emil worked after VE Day May 1945 as it was after that he could have lived on a farm.
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Might contain some useful information:
http://timecoast1951.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/new-book-embracing-enemy-on-crewe-pows.html
I'd love to read it! But I've just checked Nantwich Bookshop, Waterstones, Amazon, eBay, etc. and it is nowhere to be found. Nobody has a copy. What happened to this book?! :-(
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Hi everybody,
Thanks again for your help. :-)
I'll try and answer everything in one post.
As far as the name goes, it is def given as Peck in Birgit's christening paperwork. But as we all know, that doesn't mean to say it's correct...
Crumbs. If we don't even have the real surname, I can't see as how we'll ever make progress. I was hoping that the Rosa Peck who died in Stockport in 1960 might be the one. Of course, I was hoping that Mrs Peck might still be alive - age-wise it's possible - but I think we have to accept that it is more likely that she is no longer alive.
From what was said in the family, it sounds as though Emil spent (at least) a year actually living with the Pecks. This is what made me think it was probably after the end of the war - he was in England until August 1947, after all.
I didn't know about the possibility of his admin records being moved, but not him himself. The Camps he was assigned to are all relatively close to one another, so that is a possibility (that he changed Camp, but stayed with the Pecks).
The family story says he worked on a farm, rather than just in a garden.
I wasn't sure what the reference to London was in the Camp list, either! It is shown in exactly the same way in the lists of POW camps which can be found in the internet. (Camp 17 OR London W.2.) I assumed it was some sort of war office address.
We are still hoping that Gustav's (Emil's younger brother) middle daughter gets in contact with Birgit. This daughter remained in the area where her father lived and will probably know more about his trips to visit the Pecks as a lad in the post-war years. But we can't pressure her to get in touch... :-(
The info re: Emil's Camps was sent to us by the Deutsche Dienststelle für... (extremely long name :-)). We are still waiting for a reply from the Red Cross, although I doubt whether they will have more detailed info regarding Emil's whereabouts back then. But you never know.
When I started all this, I was hoping that the whole story might ring a bell with someone. Apparently there was even a newspaper article about Emil's little brother visiting the Pecks back then. I've googled everything I can think of, but can't find any references to it.
I was so excited on Monday, but now I'm starting to feel a bit deflated... :-(
Oh well, I'll plod on with it.
If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears... :-)
Thanks again,
Karen
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Don't be disheartened, Karen. I read somewhere that the average plane is off-course for 95% of its journey. I meant to end to my last post by saying I thought on balance the surname was probably more likely to be correct(ly spelt), but omitted that for brevity.
Here's a will/probate details transcription for the Rosa Peck who died in Stockport in 1960:
PECK Rosa of 2 New Beech Road Stockport Cheshire widow died 23 March 1960 at Stepping Hill Hospital Stockport Administration Manchester 12 May to Dorothy Phyllis Evans married woman. Effects £308 11s. 7d.
Original here: https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=peck&yearOfDeath=1960&page=2#calendar (https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=peck&yearOfDeath=1960&page=2#calendar)
I'd love to check out some of that info further, but got to get on with something else at the mo.
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Here's a will/probate details transcription for the Rosa Peck who died in Stockport in 1960:
PECK Rosa of 2 New Beech Road Stockport Cheshire widow died 23 March 1960 at Stepping Hill Hospital Stockport Administration Manchester 12 May to Dorothy Phyllis Evans married woman. Effects £308 11s. 7d.
I'd suggest the administratrix Dorothy Phyllis Evans is likely to be the same person as Dorothy P Peck who married Leonard A Evans in Hendon, Jun qtr 1936.
If so, she appears to have been born in Knebworth, Herts on 28 March 1911, daughter of Charles (b 1874) and Rose (b 1878) Peck. The family (both generations) appear to have spent time in Oswestry pre-WW2, though not with any obvious farming connection. Charles' career was as a policeman.
Marriage: Charles William Peck and Rose King, Dec qtr 1903 Hendon.
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Don't be disheartened, Karen. I read somewhere that the average plane is off-course for 95% of its journey.
Hell's bells... :o
Thanks for the link. I'll go have a look.
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I'd suggest the administratrix Dorothy Phyllis Evans may be the same person as Dorothy P Peck who married Leonard A Evans in Hendon, Jun qtr 1936.
If so, she appears to have been born in 1911, daughter of Charles (b 1874) and Rose (b 1878) Peck. The family appear to have spent time in Oswestry pre-war, though not with any obvious farming connection.
avm, I could hug you! ;D
It's getting exciting again.
Is that Hendon, London? (My Dad was born not far from there!)
On the down side, Dorothy is unlikely to still be alive. But maybe she had kids. And if so, they'd be more my generation. :)
Oswestry is a bit way-out. Nice, but not a lot there. I wonder why they would have moved.
So now we need to find Charles and/or descendants of Dorothy.
2 New Beech Road is a large block of apartments (Auntie Goggle is wonderful. Sometimes...), so if it's "our" Rose, she must have moved in later life.
I'll have to take a longer look at this later - I'm supposed to be working. ;D
Thanks very much indeed!
Karen
BTW, we also have MacGregors in our tree. Aberdeen area. :))
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I don't think the Rosa husband of a policeman can be your Rosa. We need a Rosa living on a farm to fit the story.
Does anybody know or can find out how far away from the POW camp the POWs could be placed from that camp ie 20 mile radius or more which would give some idea where to look? My personal feeling is that the farm placement would have been when Emil was at Lodge Moor as from my research the POWs only lived at farms post VE Day. Also Lodge Moor seems to have been where he spent some time.
Maybe send a letter to the Sheffield Star I seem to remember that has quite a wide coverage.
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Might contain some useful information:
http://timecoast1951.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/new-book-embracing-enemy-on-crewe-pows.html
I'd love to read it! But I've just checked Nantwich Bookshop, Waterstones, Amazon, eBay, etc. and it is nowhere to be found. Nobody has a copy. What happened to this book?! :-(
An old issue of the cheshire family history society newsletter said they had copies - may be worth contacting them in case they have one old one somewhere http://www.fhsc.org.uk
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An old issue of the cheshire family history society newsletter said they had copies - may be worth contacting them in case they have one old one somewhere http://www.fhsc.org.uk
Many thanks for that! I have just sent them a mail.
Best regards,
Karen
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@avm:
Thanks for the extra info!
@Gibel:
That is something I have often thought about: the farm could not have been too far away from whatever camp the POW was registered to. But exactly how far would have been considered as acceptable...I have no idea.
Charles the policeman would already have been around 64 years old when the war started. I have to admit that I have no idea what the retirement age was back then (or if it still applied under such circumstances). Most things I can find indicate that it was 65.
Maybe Charles became a guard at one of the camps in the Sheffield/Crewe area. As an older policeman, maybe that was a possibility.
Or maybe Rose/Rosa was already a widow by the time the war started and had moved to the Sheffield area for some reason.
So many possibilities...
Perhaps I should try and find Dorothy or her children. IF we have the right people, someone must remember the story...
BTW: Earlier today I wrote something about the address for Rose/Rosa Peck in Stockport. It was twaddle - the buildings which can be seen on Goggle Maps look like 1970s, and she died in 1960. So maybe there was a farm there previously...
I found this earlier - it's all about the area around that address. Maybe I should drop them a line:
http://hmvcg.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/5706.HMV-Heritage-Walks_Emailer.pdf
I will also send a letter to the Star tomorrow (today!). Bit late tonight - I'm a bit tired. So I hope what I've just written makes sense!
Thanks again,
Karen
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Charles William Peck had retired from his police role, and taken his pension, before the start of WW2.
He appears to have died in North London (Hendon district) in 1942.
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That's interesting. So maybe Rose/a moved up north after his death.
It does seem poignant that Birgit's family only talk about Rose Peck, and not the Peck family...
But maybe I'm just clutching at straws!
I'd better get to bed.
I'll be back... :-D
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Karen, that has been another background recurring thought of mine, which I'll say out loud now in support of what you've just said: where is Mr Peck in all this? Or is it just that the focus of the story has shifted naturally to Rose/Rosa because her name lives on as Birgit's middle name?
I do think it would be very useful to find out what was sited at New Beech Close before those modern buildings.
Let's not say 'clutching at straws', let's say 'exploring every possibility', which will inevitably involve plenty of eliminations and dead ends.
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Let's not say 'clutching at straws', let's say 'exploring every possibility', which will inevitably involve plenty of eliminations and dead ends.
OK. :)
I'll take another look at all this later. I really must do some work now, or I'll be in trouble.
This is all so much more fascinating than work...
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The impression given by Google Street View of 2 New Beech Road is misleading. I think that this is not one of the modern blocks of flats, but an older Victorian/Edwardian house barely visible at street level but quite clear in the satellite view. Zoom in on St John The Baptist Church just south of New Beech Street, then follow Grundy Street due west. Where Grundy Street bends and turns south, the large house north-west-west of the bend is the one I'm talking about.
I looked at maps of this area from 1911 (http://maps.nls.uk/view/101597998 (http://maps.nls.uk/view/101597998)) and 1946 (http://maps.nls.uk/view/101104205 (http://maps.nls.uk/view/101104205)) and the house's distinctive footprint can be seen. Immediately north of what was then just Beech Road is a pottery works, a windpump and Walton Farm. The farm is roughly where the present-day Rosgill Close is located. So I can't yet eliminate this avenue of enquiry, though I do understand that there are as many factors against as in favour.
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There are houses for sale on New Beech Road that look late Victorian or Edwardian certainly pre war.
I imagine that there were checks made on the POWs on farms periodically so possibly a 20 mile radius of the camp. Having said that I really don't know.
Are there any photos from Emil or Gustav's time on the farm? Any mention of animals sheep or cows or any mention of crops grown? Who else was on the farm?
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Another small point, after VE Day in 1945, they were no longer POWs but internees, some were quite happy not to return home and regulations were much relaxed
Mike
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The impression given by Google Street View of 2 New Beech Road is misleading. I think that this is not one of the modern blocks of flats, but an older Victorian/Edwardian house barely visible at street level but quite clear in the satellite view. Zoom in on St John The Baptist Church just south of New Beech Street, then follow Grundy Street due west. Where Grundy Street bends and turns south, the large house north-west-west of the bend is the one I'm talking about.
I see what you mean. On Google Maps (the plain & simple version), the number is definitely on that building. The photo shown by StreetView is down the road. Technology!
Looks like a lovely old house. And it had a lot of ground around it - on both of the maps you linked (thanks very much for that! I love maps. :-) )
On the 1946 map, there is an area next to the house's grounds marked as "Rec.". I was wondering if this is recreation? When I was a kid, we used to go "down the rec" in Southend.
If it was indeed an area for recreation (i.e. playing), then maybe it was used to grow food during the war? More speculation, I know, but possible. Maybe the gardens of No. 2 plus the rec were turned into a sort of smallholding.
Just an idea...
I really must do some work. I'll be back later...
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@Gibel:
No, no photos. Unless Gustav's daughter has any, and she still hasn't contacted Birgit. :(
All that was said in the family is that it was "a farm". That could, of course, be anything from a smallholding up to something enormous.
@Mazi:
I don't know exactly how that all worked. Emil apparently came home as soon as he could - but that was 1947. I don't understand why the POWs were not sent home earlier.
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I appreciate you are working and time is valuable so you may not be able to reply quickly :)
At the end of the war all of Eastern Europe and part of Germany was in the hands of the Russians, Germany and holland and Belgium were without food or any infrastructure, so repatriation was not easy, and as a German officer if Emil lived in east Germany his fate would be uncertain.
Mike
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I'm not really here. I'm working. ;D
Thanks for that.
Emil was from Hamburg, so he was a Wessie, as they say here. :)
Difficult to imagine how hard it was back then. When Emil came home, the family had nothing. As I wrote earlier, almost everything Birgit had as a baby - clothes, nappies, even a pan to warm her food - was sent over by Mrs Peck.
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This really is a long shot, but many farmers looked to nfu mutual for all their insurance needs, they are still in operation but I have no idea if they keep records, or even if they would help, but there cannot be many farmers with the name Peck, just a location would help us.
Mike
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I've just dropped them a quick line. :-)
Thanks!
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I have re-read all the thread, going back to the Oswestry link, the free 1939 index tells me that Rose Peck is living in Oswestry in the household of Leonard A Evans.
Oswestry is very rural, and not that far away from the satellite camp of Crewe hall at Warmingham,
The now widowed Rose seems ideal to take an interest in a POW, might even have access to a few spare baby clothes, in desperaty short supply in the UK then, when everything was still rationed, but of course she would not be the farmer.
It would be useful if someone could eliminate this family, at least it would be one less to consider
Mike
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Oswestry is very rural, and not that far away from the satellite camp of Crewe hall at Warmingham,
It is 36 miles away.
Karen,
Do try emails to the local papers, readers (if the letters are published) do remember names and if POW's worked locally.
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In 1946-1947 130,000 ex pow's were working on farms in England, one in every five agricultural workers, most of these were billeted, I find it hard to believe that all these people could be found placements in the close vicinity of the camp they were nominally allocated to.
I am not putting this one forward as likely, just one to be eliminated if possible
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If we are looking at Rose Pecks who are not on a farm to eliminate them we should perhaps also look at the Rose Peck living in Conisborough ( near Ravenfield camp) with a husband Victor.
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If we are looking at Rose Pecks who are not on a farm to eliminate them we should perhaps also look at the Rose Peck living in Conisborough ( near Ravenfield camp) with a husband Victor.
I agree, elimination may be the only way, but it's not easy
Mike
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Rose (Birdsall) with Victor married in 1926 and had one son in 1929 (who is probably that closed record.)
Son died 2012 in Bedford.
Added:
If Rose was living with son, there is a possible death for her in 1986 in Bedford, and probate not exceeding £40 000.
She is in trees on Ancestry, including a picture.
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Am I right in inferring from the thread that Birgit never (knowingly) met, or had direct contact with, Rose?
If that is right, I wonder whether it points to Rose having died reasonably early on in Birgit's life. She seems to have been an assiduous friend to the family, providing baby supplies etc - having been given the honour of being made godmother it seems unlikely she would have drifted away/broken off contact without good reason.
(Apologies if I have missed something on this).
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This really is a long shot, but many farmers looked to nfu mutual for all their insurance needs, they are still in operation but I have no idea if they keep records, or even if they would help, but there cannot be many farmers with the name Peck, just a location would help us.
Mike
Hi Mike,
The NFU Mutual wrote back to say that they are unable to disclose such details (if they even have them). Privacy, 'n all that.
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Karen,
Do try emails to the local papers, readers (if the letters are published) do remember names and if POW's worked locally.
Hi chempat,
I have sent off mails to all the local papers I could find. Let's see what happens... :)
Karen
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@Gibel & chempat:
I am happy to pursue whatever paths we can find!
@avm: Correct. Birgit never met Rose. It sounds as though Rose was never in Germany. The fact that she may have died when Birgit was still small is something which crossed our minds, too.
Thanks,
Karen
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Late to the party & I can't offer anything but a suggestion for more emails Karen [sorry :)]. I wonder if a letter/email plea to a farming newspaper/magazine might stir someone's memory? Or even the BBC radio programme Farming Today....
Email
farming.today@bbc.co.uk
Farming Today, 27, 3TPR, BBC Broadcasting House, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, BS8 2LR
Who knows, one of them may have done an article on post war POW or immigrant workers.
Mr Josey grew up on a farm in Berkshire & his father had 2 Germans working there post war who lived in the farm cottages - one with his wife & family; however this must have been mid-fifties for him to remember them as he was born 1950 [toy boy to me ;D]. His mother now 96 remembers them and his brother born 1947 gets a farming newspaper so there will no doubt be people around who will remember Emil & Gustav.
Josey
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Thanks for that, Josey!
I have amended my letter slightly and have just sent it off to the BBC. Fingers crossed!
I'll see what I can find on farming magazines tomorrow. Woofer wants his tea and hubby will be home soon. :)
Karen
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I have received an automatic reply from the BBC saying that they receive so many mails, they may not be able to reply...
Oh, well. Fingers crossed...
I have also sent out mails to a whole list of farming magazines.
Karen
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Brilliant, well done. What a star you are....shame about the BBC response but maybe somehow we can make this go viral....there's someone out there who knows of Rose Peck, Emil & Gustav.
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I'm no star! I'm just trying to help somebody I think a lot of.
For me, the stars are the Rootschatters who spend so much of their time helping people they don't know and will probably never meet.
But as you say: someone out there must remember Emil and Co. And I can't help thinking about how excited everyone who has helped in this search will be if we do one day manage to put Birgit in touch with Rose's family. :)
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I found the website sheffieldhistory.co.uk, which looks promising.
I have been trying to register there in the hope of finding something which might help in my "Rose Peck" search.
However, the website tells me that my application must be approved. This was several days ago and I have not received a reply. I tried writing to the website, but again, no answer.
There are new threads and answers on the website, so it is definitely still active.
Does anyone have any ideas?
Thanks,
Karen
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I can't help thinking about how excited everyone who has helped in this search will be if we do one day manage to put Birgit in touch with Rose's family. :)
We'll all have a 'virtual' party ;)
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Possibly only certain people can 'approve' you, and they have just not logged in for a few days.
I have also just now applied, so will see if they approve me and do not like you. :)
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I have been approved.
Perhaps they only work at weekends?
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Apologies if this has been mooted before,but the following records look interesting if they can be pulled together with a birth for the Rose Peck concerned :-
Death of James Rourke,Doncaster,1927-2005
Death of Rose Rourke,Doncaster,1926-1999 (Rose would be unmarried approx.20 in 1946)
Marriage of James Rourke and Rose Peck Don Valley,4Q 1951
and then from the other end,
Family of Pecks at Farm House,Cantley,Doncaster in 1901 RG13/4415/86/11
Following through generations of the Charles Peck through 1911 and 1939 you will find that Rose is a family name and further components of the address are Top Hall Farm,Bawtry(?) Road(postcode DN4 7BU).This address is just over 2 miles from Doncaster Raceourse(DN2 6BB).
Regards
Roger
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Just to add that the proposed date of birth is 22nd April 1926 (for that Rose Rourke death)
So, nothing showing on free bmd or 1939 for that?
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No,that's why I can't make the connection.Rose,wherever she is might be "closed" in 1939 of course.
Here is a 1930 map of the area
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/461533/400556/12/101162
Regards
Roger
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I have been approved.
Perhaps they only work at weekends?
Maybe my foreign E-Mail address is the problem..? :(
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It looks possible (only possible) that the Rose Peck who married James Rourke may have been a young widow.There was a marriage of 3Q 1947,Don Valley,of a Norman Peck(transcribed as Peek?) to Rose Whitford.
There is then a death of Norman Peck aged 23 in Don Valley in 1948.Whether Norman Peck is related might still be worth tracing to se if he comes from a farming family.
Despair
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Hi Despair,
It's late and I'm tired... ::) But this is all very interesting!
I had not thought about the possibility of Rose being such a young woman. The idea in my head was always a woman who was at least middle-aged, if not older.
If Rose Whitford is our Rose, then she only became a Peck after Emil had retuned to Germany. Which is possible. We are going on what is in Birgit's christening cert from early 1949 (Godmother: Rose Peck) and how Emil referred to her (Mrs Peck). There would have been no need for him to have referred to her as Rose Whitford, even if that is how he had known her. (I hope you understand what I mean!)
Maybe the contact between the families had already fizzled out by the time she married Mr Rourke.
This is getting complicated!
I need to get some sleep and think about it again tomorrow. :)
Thanks very much!
Karen
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There are Rourke/Whitford births on free bmd in Doncaster in 1953 and 1959.
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Thanks, Despair!
Apologies if this has been mooted before,but the following records look interesting if they can be pulled together with a birth for the Rose Peck concerned :-
Death of James Rourke,Doncaster,1927-2005
Death of Rose Rourke,Doncaster,1926-1999 (Rose would be unmarried approx.20 in 1946)
Marriage of James Rourke and Rose Peck Don Valley,4Q 1951
and then from the other end,
Family of Pecks at Farm House,Cantley,Doncaster in 1901 RG13/4415/86/11
Following through generations of the Charles Peck through 1911 and 1939 you will find that Rose is a family name and further components of the address are Top Hall Farm,Bawtry(?) Road(postcode DN4 7BU).This address is just over 2 miles from Doncaster Raceourse(DN2 6BB).
Regards
Roger
I'll follow up the Rourke trail.
I've looked up Top Hall Farm (Bawtry appears to be correct) and there are a number of businesses listed at that address, so it's probably not a farm now.
I'll follow it up, though.
Thanks again,
Karen
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There are Rourke/Whitford births on free bmd in Doncaster in 1953 and 1959.
Thanks for that. The eldest child has a somewhat unusual name, so I googled it and there are only a handful of people with this name combination to be found. I am considering calling them all by 'phone and asking if they are connected to our story..! :D
Karen
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It's me again. ;D
I spoke to Birgit this afternoon and I think we can rule out Rose Rourke.
Birgit said that the story told within the family is that Mr & Mrs Peck (Rose was not alone - she had a hubby there) looked after Emil "as though they were his parents".
Rose Peck/Rourke would have been around 20 when Emil was there - he was already mid-30s. I can't imagine someone so much younger than him being like a second mum...
If what the family said was true, then we can also rule out Rose Peck who died in Stockport in 1960, as she was a widow.
BTW, the Village Conservation group for the place where that Rose Peck lived have replied to me. They don't have any records of anything like that (POWs on farms) in their village. However, one member was living in the village during the war, so they are sending the story on to her to see if she remembers anything.
Little by little...
Karen
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Hi everybody,
I received a mail from Farmers Weekly today. They are going to run a version of our story on their letters page this week! :D
Who knows? Maybe it might ring a bell with someone. Fingers crossed! :)
Best regards,
Karen
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Fingers crossed. :)
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Great news, maybe other magazines will help too. But well done to Farmer's Weekly.
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Your in Farmers Weekly today, which is how I picked up this thread, good luck with your search.
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Thanks for letting me know, yondover!
Is it possible to read it online without a subscription, do you know?
Thanks,
Karen
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Just sent an email to you with screenshot of letters page.
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Another farming magazine is 'Farmers Guardian' their contact details for letters are
fgeditorial@fginsight.com
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Just sent an email to you with screenshot of letters page.
Brilliant! Thanks very much indeed, Helen!
Now all we can do is keep our fingers crossed that somebody recognises the story and gets in contact. All very exciting! 😊
Thanks again,
Karen
P.S. Farmers Guardian is one I didn't find. I'll give them a try. Thanks! :)
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Hi everybody,
WE KNOW WHICH ROSE IT WAS AND WHERE SHE LIVED!!! ;D :) ;D :) ;D
(And, yes, it was one of the Roses discovered by you lovely people here in this thread! :-*)
Please be so kind and have a little bit of patience. I only received the news today and (typical! :-\) I am not at home again until Thursday (hubby is on a training course and Woofy and I have come along with him) and only have limited Internet access here.
We have received a document which tells us, 100% for certain, that we have the right person. She is no longer alive, so I need to try and find out if there are any living children or grandchildren.
I am just so excited about it and totally frustrated that I can't get much further with it from here!
Watch this space... :)
But don't hold your breath, just in case... ;)
Thanks again! You are all wonderful!
Karen
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This is excellent news. I was certain that this one would eventually be solved, but less sure it would be any time soon. Looking forward to hearing more when you're able to share.
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Hi Karen, this is one of those threads that has had me hooked! I can't wait to hear what you have discovered, and those who have contributed to your thread will be so excited to hear the news. Try not to keep us waiting too long ;D
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You deserve to have found your answer.You have followed every single lead immediately and assiduously while being generous in your thanks to everyone who helped.
Regards
Roger
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On tenterhooks here in Yorkshire.... ;D.
I agree with Roger, your determination and the way we rootschat terriers stick to a challenge till there's nothing left to find out will I am sure help Birgit to be a happy woman even if it is only to identify the farm & get some pictures of it.
Will be away myself from Friday till next Tuesday but will be able to read your posts.
Josey
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Hello everybody,
I really don't think I deserve all this praise!
I am so very grateful to everybody who has helped. I would never have got this far on my own.
Behind the scenes, the help is still in full flow! I have received masses of information again today and am sorting it all out so that I have a better overview. Once we get back home at the end of the week, I hope to start making some phone calls...
Please don't be disappointed if I don't say too much at the moment - I am really NOT trying to build up the excitement! - but I would love to get just a little bit further before I tell you what has happened.
Suffice to say: It looks as though I may well be able to get in touch in with Rose's grandchildren and great-grandchildren! Let's keep our fingers crossed.
As soon as I have something concrete in that direction, I'll let you all know!
Thanks again,
Karen
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Hi Karen, you really do deserve the praise people have given. We have seen so many threads here where the poster has not followed up positive leads found by Rootschatters, whereas you have chased every lead even if it was a long shot, and thanked people which is always appreciated.
I have not been able to help with your thread but, as always, I am amazed at what the Chatters can dig up.
Looking forward to hearing your news :D
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Hi everybody,
Sorry to have kept you waiting, but we were away for a week (during which massive progress was made!) and then, just as it looked as though it was all working out, I hit a wall again. Sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees ???, and once I had thought about things for a while, I realised where I was going wrong - and rectified things. :P
You will, I am sure ;D, be pleased to know that we have traced a number of living relatives of Rose Peck. :D
As mentioned earlier in the thread, Rose and Victor had a son, George. He passed away in 2012, leaving his wife, his son and daughter, and 3 grandchildren.
I am now in contact with one of George's grandchildren (Rose's great-grandson). He has confirmed that his grandmother, George's wife, is still alive. This is wonderful news and we are hoping that we might be able to speak to her.
I sent Rose's great-grandson a long mail yesterday, with details of our story, and am waiting for his reply.
I will, of course, let you know what happens!
Once again, I would like to thank everyone who helped in our search. At the beginning, we had so little to go on, but that didn't deter you! ScotsAnnie did so much research back then when we didn't know where in England we should be looking. I know she said she thoroughly enjoyed it, but I felt so awful, telling her that all her hard work was in vain. :( Thanks, Annie!
Then later, when we knew roughly where to look, the help came flooding in. I am particularly grateful to chempat and Gibel for all their hard work behind the scenes, much of which cannot be seen in this thread. You are wonderful!
Now all we need to do is keep our fingers crossed that the living relatives find our story touching and are willing to share whatever they know about Emil and Gustav's time in England. In the meantime, Birgit has started putting together a letter to the family. :)
Thanks again,
Karen
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Happy to have been of assistance to you.
Pat.
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Like I would think many others I was unable to help but have been following this search with great interest and hope.
Congrats to all who helped out, it's great to see all that hard work end in success.
It's an inspiring story of human kindness at a difficult time and lovely to see the later generations coming together again from of the kindness strangers.
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Happy to have helped.
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Very pleased to hear how this has turned out. I guess this is an interesting phase of transition, as events progress from the dead to the living, from public domain historical research to a more private family-to-family matter. I don't want to treat it like a soap opera, but it is a gripping story and I'd like to hear more, if those involved are happy for it to be shared.
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Hi Rattus,
I know exactly what you mean. :)
I am still waiting for a further reply from Rose's great-grandson. He replied really quickly to my first short message, but since sending the detailled mail, there has only been radio silence... :(
I'll give it a couple more days and then I'll contact him again.
Karen
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Any news? I do hope so for Birgit's sake.
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Hi,
I received a mail from his mum yesterday! :D
Absolutely lovely. Made me a bit sniffy. The whole family is very touched by the story.
I need to go through the mail in detail and then I'll post again here tomorrow. (Without names, obviously.)
I've been out most of the weekend and we had masses of snow here today, which has kept us busy, so I have had little time to go online.
Karen
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Wow!
Wonderful news.
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So pleased for everyone in both countries. How cheering ;).
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Indeed! :)
I am going to speak to Rose's granddaughter. :D We are sorting out a time which suits both of us, then I'll give her a call.
Report will follow here... :)
Karen
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So happy for you and Birgit Karen, a lovely happy ending x
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Hi everybody,
Well, this is one story that doesn't want to reveal all its secrets at once..! ;)
A couple of days ago, I spoke at length with Rose's granddaughter (let's call her GD). We had a lovely long chat and she is really very, very happy (and grateful!) that we persisted in our search. She adored her grandparents and is very happy to share her memories of them.
What came out in our conversation, however, extends the story by another chapter. Some of you may remember that waaay back, someone found a (census?) reference (I really must go back through everything and find it again! Sorry...) which indicated that Rose & Victor might possibly have had another child in addition to their son.
Well...this is true! GD told me that her grandparents adopted a little girl (let's call her AD) - and that this lady is still alive! Not only that, but she remembers the time with the Germans and that she would love to talk to me about it! AD is also sure that she has photos from that time! But she is not sure at the mo where they are. She wants to look for them, though.
So sometime soon I will give her a call (I have all her details). I am really looking forward to the call! Just need to find the time - things have been a bit manic recently.
But just imagine...it could be that there are photos of Emil and/or Gustav from their time(s) in England! Fingers crossed!
Once I have spoken to AD, I'll let you know! :D
Best regards,
Karen
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It's a wonderful story and I'm so pleased the family has been found for Birgit she must be very happy, if you hadn't started the quest she'd have never have found them.
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Well well how fantastic. Pictures too for Brigit. I am so pleased for everyone involved - now adding AD to the list. Shows the powers of perseverance & rootschat.
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Hi everybody,
I spoke to AD last night! She is lovely. We had a long, interesting and funny conversation.
AD was only 3 years old when Emil returned to Germany, so she doesn't remember him. She does, however, remember Gustav.
Also, she definitely has some photos from that time, passed on to her by her parents (who were, she says, the best parents you could wish to have!). She is going to go through them and see which ones are relevant.
So the suspense continues and the story keeps evolving... :)
I'll be back. ;)
Have a great Christmas!
Karen
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Happy Christmas to All of You.