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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Redmoore on Tuesday 19 September 17 13:55 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
I dip in and out of genealogy as I keep coming up against brick walls so I am not really a beginner, just not that great at knowing where to look. I recently joined Findmypast and found my g g grandmothers maiden name through her sister's marriage certificate. After weeks of searching I think that I have found her birth record. It is under GRO Army Birth Indices. The image and transcription does not give me much information just her name, year of birth and area, all of which fit. There is nothing else that tells me that this is definitely her. I have no proof that her dad was in the army. I was going to take a chance and buy the certificate but when I go onto the GRO website it is only giving me the option of England and Wales but she was born in Ireland. Any help would be appreciated.
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Welcome to Rootschat. :)
What was her name and year of birth?
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It doesn't matter where in the world they were born, If you found the reference in the GRO Army Index, then you order from the GRO in the normal way.
I should have added welcome to Rootschat and click on Place an order, not the option to Search the Indexes.
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Can you post the fathers name and when and where he was born. And the details of the birth you found.
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Thank you for all the replies. Her name was Mary Moore born in Dublin (Queen's County) 1855. Her Father's name was Michael. I have no other details for Michael apart from him being listed as a gardener and deceased on her sisters wedding certificate dated 1885.
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Mary Moore born in Dublin (Queen's County) which is it? Dublin or Queen's Co?
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103rd Foot
Mary MOORE
Dublin Vol 1635 Page 15
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I was under the impression that Queen's County was in Dublin. On all the censuses I have found it says Queen's Co. The army birth record I have found says Dublin. I have now ordered it. Do you think that this certificate will be wrong then? Geography is not my strongpoint. I did Google Queen's Co and I thought it said it was part of Dublin.
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This may help...
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/File:County_Leix_Map_Ireland.jpg
Annie
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Thank you for all the replies. Her name was Mary Moore born in Dublin (Queen's County) 1855. Her Father's name was Michael. I have no other details for Michael apart from him being listed as a gardener and deceased on her sisters wedding certificate dated 1885.
Hi,
What is the sister's name and place of marriage please?
Heywood
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I was under the impression that Queen's County was in Dublin. On all the censuses I have found it says Queen's Co. The army birth record I have found says Dublin. I have now ordered it. Do you think that this certificate will be wrong then? Geography is not my strongpoint. I did Google Queen's Co and I thought it said it was part of Dublin.
No problem!
It's possible he was from Queens Co but serving in Dublin at the time, or wife gave birth in Dublin.
Can you post weblinks to any Certs etc found so people can see them?
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I was under the impression that Queen's County was in Dublin. On all the censuses I have found it says Queen's Co. The army birth record I have found says Dublin. I have now ordered it. Do you think that this certificate will be wrong then? Geography is not my strongpoint. I did Google Queen's Co and I thought it said it was part of Dublin.
No problem!
It's possible he was from Queens Co but serving in Dublin at the time, or wife gave birth in Dublin.
Can you post weblinks to any Certs etc found so people can see them?
Army certificates, as with English and Welsh Certificates, are not viewable on line.
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Thank you for all the replies. Her name was Mary Moore born in Dublin (Queen's County) 1855. Her Father's name was Michael. I have no other details for Michael apart from him being listed as a gardener and deceased on her sisters wedding certificate dated 1885.
You also say you have no proof that her father was in the army ???
It would be best to start with what you know for definite within your family because this is a bit confusing.
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Thank you for all the replies. Her name was Mary Moore born in Dublin (Queen's County) 1855. Her Father's name was Michael. I have no other details for Michael apart from him being listed as a gardener and deceased on her sisters wedding certificate dated 1885.
y
You also say you have no proof that her father was in the army ???
It would be best to start with what you for definite within your family because this is a bit confusing.
I don’t know very much at all about this branch of the family but it is the only birth record that I have found that may be a match.
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I was under the impression that Queen's County was in Dublin. On all the censuses I have found it says Queen's Co. The army birth record I have found says Dublin. I have now ordered it. Do you think that this certificate will be wrong then? Geography is not my strongpoint. I did Google Queen's Co and I thought it said it was part of Dublin.
No problem!
It's possible he was from Queens Co but serving in Dublin at the time, or wife gave birth in Dublin.
Can you post weblinks to any Certs etc found so people can see them?
Army certificates, as with English and Welsh Certificates, are not viewable on line.
sisters wedding certificate dated 1885 might be....
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I recently joined Findmypast and found my g g grandmothers maiden name through her sister's marriage certificate. After weeks of searching I think that I have found her birth record. It is under GRO Army Birth Indices.
It could be her but it is not an uncommon name and if she was born in Ireland, you would be looking at Parish Records for that time which are not all complete.
I am puzzled re finding her maiden name through her sister's marriage. Have you found them both together as married women?
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I am puzzled re finding her maiden name through her sister's marriage. Have you found them both together as married women?
[/quote]
My gg grandma was Mary Redding & my g g aunt was Elizabeth Southern, both married names. I have found them both on censuses. I cannot find a marriage record for Mary. In fact I cannot find any record of her husband anywhere apart from on her death certificate. It states his name Joseph and his occupation as land steward.
I have found a marriage certificate for Elizabeth. Her maiden name was Moore and it stated her address, Father’s name and occupation and that he was deceased.
Elizabeth brought up my g grandad Joseph because I think that Mary’s husband also called Joseph died quite early in their marriage. I am assuming this was to allow Mary to work. Joseph, Mary’s son died in WW1 and Elizabeth then brought up my grandad and siblings because Joseph’s wife Minnie was in a lunatic asylum. I know a little bit about Elizabeth because my grandad would sometimes mention her.
This is basically where I am up to in my research of this side of the family.
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Thanks for the explanation. I thought you must have known of the sister otherwise it wouldn't make sense. ;)
Did all this happen in England?
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Getting a bit closer ;)
1901 3574/159/25
17 Grafton Street Newton in Makerfield
Thomas Southern 32 yrs
Elizabeth Southern 32 yrs b Queens County
Next door
Mary Redding 46 yrs widow b Ireland
Joseph Redding 21 yrs b Ireland
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Thanks for the explanation. I thought you must have known of the sister otherwise it wouldn't make sense. ;)
Did all this happen in England?
Elizabeth, Mary & Joseph jr were born in Ireland. Between 1885 & 1891 they came to Newton-le-Willows, Lancashire in England back then it was called Newton-In-Makerfield. I assume that Thomas, Mary’s husband had connections in the area as he was born in Liverpool.
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Getting a bit closer ;)
1901 3574/159/25
17 Grafton Street Newton in Makerfield
Thomas Southern 32 yrs
Elizabeth Southern 32 yrs b Queens County
Next door
Mary Redding 46 yrs widow b Ireland
Joseph Redding 21 yrs b Ireland
Yes that is them.
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Joseph's army record shows 29 yrs in 1914.
1911 index shows Joseph 31 yrs in 1911 and born Dublin.
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When and where did Thomas and Elizabeth Southern marry?
There is a marriage in 1879 in Abbeyleix, County Laois (Queens County) with Joseph Redding and Mary Bachelor :-\
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December 1885 in Dublin I can’t make out the district I think it starts Wich.
I am 99% sure that Mary Bachelor is not my Mary because I tried that avenue before and it wasn’t her.
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The district is Dublin.
It's odd that the witness is Thos. Kay /Ray and in 1891 census Joseph is with Thomas and Eliza Kay/Ray in Newton in Makerfield.
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The district is Dublin.
It's odd that the witness is Thos. Kay /Ray and in 1891 census Joseph is with Thomas and Eliza Kay/Ray in Newton in Makerfield.
Yes I am certain that these are Thomas and Elizabeth Southern. I have no idea why they would give their name as Ray though. It is obviously a name in the family.
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Yes everything looks the same.
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Another Thomas with Kay witness
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December 1885 in Dublin I can’t make out the district I think it starts Wich.
I am 99% sure that Mary Bachelor is not my Mary because I tried that avenue before and it wasn’t her.
Are you sure you got the year right??
Is December 1888 the Marriage you say was in 1885??
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Yes sorry it is 1888. I have 1885 stuck in my head for sone reason
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Yes sorry it is 1888. I have 1885 stuck in my head for sone reason
Always good to include a link to records one is talking about.....
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Are there any father's details on Joseph's marriage certificate?
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I have not got a copy of the certificate. Maybe I should order it. I just don’t know if it would have any different information than on Mary’s death certificate as Joseph was the informant.
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Does her death certificate give name and occupation of her husband?
If her husband died when Joseph was very young, he might not know enough information for the death certificate.
I can't see an obvious birth for your Joseph Redding, Dublin. His army record shows 'West Mead, in the county of Dublin' ???
Elsewhere in the army record, place of birth is West Meath but still County Dublin. Westmeath is a county.
Elizabeth Moore Southern shows her birth as Dublin so if she and Mary were sisters, then the family presumably moved to Dublin in the intervening years. Elizabeth Moore should be in the birth indexes.
Perhaps, if the father was in the military, that could be the explanation but Mary's year of birth shows as later than 1855 which you first mention.
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I just wanted to say that talking this through with you is extremely helpful. Thank you so much.
You querying Mary’s year of birth made me look at her death certificate. She is listed as being 53 in 1914 which would make her year of birth 1861 not 1855. I think that I may have got her birth year off a census originally. On her death certificate under occupation it says Widow of Joseph Redding Land Steward.
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Thanks - and now you mention Land Steward I might have read that in the thread - sorry.
The army record makes sad reading- I just read it through today.
I'm glad it's a help to go through all this. There are some stumbling blocks.
I suppose Land Steward and Gardener could be linked.
There are a few years between Mary and Elizabeth and different birth places. If they are sisters, their mother could have remarried - who knows.
We are not allowed to post details of 1911 apart from the index - here she is from FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWYX-YZ4
Her birthplace is transcribed as 'Atky', Queens County. I quite favour this as 'Abby' perhaps for Abbeyleix.
You said you had gone down the Mary Bachelor marriage route - did you get the certificate?
I understand that you wouldn't particularly want it without better evidence.
It is strange that there is no birth showing yet for Joseph - frustrating :-\
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Joseph’s army documents were very sad reading. I had no idea he was missing for so long. The story in the family was that Minnie went into a lunatic asylum because she couldn’t get over her husband’s death. His army records debunked that.
The gardener Michael is Elizabeth’s dad. My mum has always said that Elizabeth was an aunt through marriage but I cannot make a connection at all. Also some of what my mum was told turned out to be wrong. It seems much more likely that Elizabeth and Mary were sisters as they were both born in Ireland. Thomas was born in Liverpool if I remember rightly.
I ruled out Mary Bachelor because if I remember rightly she went on to have more children. It was something along those lines.
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I think they both refer to 'my nephew' in the correspondence but as you say it is more likely and Mary was their witness.
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I have just found this birth record for Elizabeth Moore. I wonder if this is the Elizabeth I am looking for? There is only the transcript and not much information.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=ire%2fbmd%2fd%2f566717166
I managed to find the record but the Father’s name and year of birth don’t match.
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I can't access that record.
What is the year and place?
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I found the record on the Irish site but father’s name and year of birth don’t match. I thought I was onto something then.