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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Jang on Wednesday 27 September 17 04:03 BST (UK)
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I need help in finding what became of this family after 1881, when they were living at 16 Killermont St, Glasgow.
Charles Parkins, 31, head railyway guard England
Catherine Parkins, 25 wife Kilmadock Perthshire
Kate Parkins 2 dau Glasgow
Charity Jane Parkins 1 dau Glasgow
I can't find them in later censuses in England or Scotland, or their deaths or marriages in the SP index, so possbibly they emigrated.
Any leads gratefully received :-)
Jan
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This may not help but I think the couple married in 1878 in the Gorbols based on the daughter Kate's biirth on Scotland's People. On the marriage cert Charles is listed as Chandler Parkin/s Railway Yardman with parents William and Charity Parkin/s- spouse Kate Morgan .
In early census years he is listed as born in 1849 Baldersby, Yorkshire (with middle name James) and married a Grace Grey in Carstairs in 1875 and she died in 1877
Kay
Edit -Found a death on Scotlands People Chandler James Parkin age 32 - 7 May 1881 at Royal Infirm Glasgow -wife Catherine Morgan - occupation Assistant Railway Inspector- Parents William Morgan - Charity Chandler
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Many thanks Kay, it helps a great deal. Chandler? No wonder I couldn't find him. :-)
It means I can eliminate this family from the Charles Parkins I'm researching. I thought he was the same one who married Margaret Moodie in 1870 in Ayr but I couldn't make it fit. That couple had children - William John (1873-1874 Hutchesontown), possibly William Charles (1875 Hutchesontown), Margaret (1876 England, according to the 1881 census) and probably Helen (1877-1877 Hutchesontown).
In 1871 there's a Charles Parkins who was a a Private with 5th Fusiliers at the Infantry Barracks in Ayr, aged 22, born England. I think he's probably the one who married Margaret Moodie 1870 in Ayr.
In 1881 Margaret (Moodie) Parkins and daughter Margaret were living with her parents, William and Elizabeth Moodie in Hutchestontown but there's no sign of Charles. Margaret (the mother) died in 1882 in Hutchinsontown but I can't find any trace of her daughter after this date.
Jan
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I also got confused with the Charles Parkins and Margaret Moodie couple and their children born in the same area as there are so few Parkins . Charles and Margaret also had a son Charles born 1881 (who I think died) - presumably why she was at home with her parents.
They don't make it easy do they :-\
Kay
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That's for sure!
Just checked on SP - yes, Charles Parkins died 1882 - looks like poor Margaret died in childbirth. Now to find out what happened to her husband and daughter ...
Thanks for your help - it always helps to have a fresh set of eyes :-)
Jan
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Had a fiddle and I think William Charles Parkin/s born 1875 died the next year in Newcastle upon Tyne
Also found a death of a Maria Parkins age 4 on 28 Sept 1881 parents Charles and Margaret - reported by Elizabeth Moodie - grandmother. I wonder if she was listed as Margaret on the 1881 census ??
Kay
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Kay, many thanks for the feedback. I think you're right about Maria and Margaret being one and the same - the age, parents and grandmother all fit. Great find! Having William Charles die in Newcastle on Tyne about the same time sister Margaret was born in England gave me a place to search for Margaret(Maria's?) birth. I found a couple of possibilities- Margaret Ann Sep 1875 Tynemouth and Margaret Parkins Mar 1879 Newcastle on Tyne. I favour the second one, even though she's a bit young because of the location - perhaps she was registered late.
I'm a bit confused about Elizabeth Moodie. She was Elizabeth Cook (or McWatt, if illegitimate - her mother married in September 1823) born Ireland between 1822 and 1826, according to the 1841 census. She married William Moodie in 1845 in Neilston Renfrewshire and they had Margaret McWatt Moodie born there in 1846.
In 1861, living in Ayr
Elisabeth Moodie 39 Ireland labourer's wife
Margaret Moodie 12 dau Ireland
William John Moodie 8 son Ireland
Alexander Moodie 4 son Ayrshire
Elisabeth Moodie 6 Mo dau Ayrshire
Susan Mcqueen 18 visitor Stranraer, Wigtonshire servant
William Mcqueen 6 Mo visitor Ayr, Ayrshire
So far, so good. I'm not worried about Margaret's birthplace being given as Ireland - it happened a lot with the Cook family, sometimes Ireland, sometimes Neilston.
The same family in 1881, living in Hutchesontown
William Moodie 60 Ireland general labourer
Elizabeth Moodie 54 wife Ireland
Alexander Moodie 24 son Ayr warehouse porter
Margaret Moodie 30 dau married Ireland shopwoman
Margaret Parkins 4 granddaughter England
The problem is that Alexander Moodie's birth in 1857 Ayr gives his mother as Eliza McDowell, as does Elisabeth's in 1860 Ayr and another son Thomas born 1862 Ayr. Could Elizabeth Cook/McWatt given a different surname to cover up her illegitmacy or did William Moodie marry 2 Elizabeths?
As you said, it's never easy!
Jan
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Have you checked the GRO Birth Index which lists the mother's maiden name for Margaret/Maria's birth https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp You have to register but it is free to search. I can't see a Parkin/s -Moodie birth at the moment sadly
Given all three children born in Scotland have the mother's maiden name I favour there being a second wife - possibly!! Or maybe Margaret was born on Ireland and the marriage you found isnot the couple :-\ Have you found a marriage for any of these children which should list their mother's maiden name or Elizabeth's death cert??
Wonder where they were in 1871? The only possible one I can see is a Alex Moodie age 13 in a ragged school at Carrick St, Ayr?? :-[
Kay
Edit - Just found a marriage for Elizabeth - Hutchinson - 5 March 1880 to Joseph Platt. Elizabeth is listed as 19 with parents William Moodie and Elizabeth McDowell Witnesses John Wright and Margaret Moodie - And on the Margeret Moonie's marriage cert in 1870 to Charles Perkins she also lists her mother's maiden name as McDowell??
And a death for William Moodie which also lists his wife's maiden name as McDowall
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Wow, Kay, I didn't expect you to get the certificate, many thanks for finding William Moodie's death. I had the same thought as you about him marrying twice and Eliza(beth) McDowell being his second wife - what made me reconsider was the fact that little Margaret Parkins is the daughter of Margaret Moodie, who seems to be a good fit for my Margaret McWatt Moodie. Then when you found Elizabeth Moodie listed as Margaret Parkins' grandmother, it made me think again, although I guess a stepgrandmother would be listed as just grandmother.
Thanks for reminding me about the new GRO index. When nothing came up for Margaret Parkins' birth, I checked the William Charles' death you found. Turns out he was aged 15, so not the right one. Went back to search for Margaret/Maria Parkins' birth again, anywhere in England, but nothing had mother's maiden name as Moodie.
There seems to be a gap of 7 years between Margaret McWatt Moodie's birth in 1846 and William John Moodie's in 1853, but both in Ireland, according to the census. William John Moodie married Helen McFarlane - I was told that his mother was listed on the marriage certificate as Elizabeth McDowell too. He had a son, William Porter Moodie born 1878 Glasgow which fits with the parents on William Moodie's death certificate. So it's possible the first Elizabeth (if there was one) died in Ireland and William Moodie married Eliza McDowell between 1846 and 1853 in Ireland.
I think you're probably right about the Margaret Moodie in the 1861 and 1881 census not being my Margaret McWatt Moodie. She was born 1846:
William Moodie and Elisabeth Cook, spouses, Barrhead, had their first child being a daughter born on 27th December 1846 and baptised at the Manse on the sixth of May named Margaret McWatt (Moodie)
and the one in the 1861 census is born c1849 and in 1881 census is born c1851. Not exactly a good fit.
I couldn't find them in 1871 either - only Alex. Nor can I find a death for an Elizabeth Moodie after 1881 that fits. The Margaret Parkins who died in 1881 Hutchesontown age 31 so born ca 1850 also fits with the census ages.
Thanks for letting me use you as a sounding board - I really appreciate the feedback. :-)
Back to the drawing board :-)
Jan
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Just to mention ages on Death in the new GRO index can be incorrect i.e. 15 years when it should be 15 months.
Crosscheck where you can against FreeBMD
Edited
FreeBMD
PARKINS William Charles 1 Newcastle On Tyne 10b 75
Mick
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Ah, that's good to know - so it is the right one. Thanks, Mick.
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I do love a puzzle. Just to add that I think Elizabeth Moodie was still alive in 1891 and living with son Thomas in Govan - However she is mistranscribed on Anc as being only 18!!
Elizabeth Moodie 18 b IrelandMother
Thomas Moodie son 27 b Ayr, Ayrshire
Kay
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Great find - it's a wonder we ever find anything on Ancestry with mistranscriptions like this.
I love a good puzzle too - especially when all the missing pieces eventually turn up. :-)
Jan
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Never one to shy away from a challenge ;D ;D
Linked to this, and your other thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=780621.0
Your Margaret McWatt Moodie has been a bit tricky to track down, but I think I may have pieced it together.
Let’s start with her mother, Elizabeth Cook. Elizabeth Cook was born about 1824 probably in Ireland (although she variously appears as Ireland, Barrhead or Paisley in subsequent censuses) to John Cook and Margaret McWatt. She’s in Neilston, Renfrewshire in 1841 with her parents. She marries William Moodie, calico printer from Barrhead, in 1845 in Neilston. Margaret McWatt Moodie is born in Barrhead in December 1846, and baptised in Neilston in May 1847.
William Moodie must have died shortly after that, as some time before 1851, Elizabeth Cook marries again to David Brown, a French polisher - although I can’t find a marriage. The family are in Paisley in 1851 with three children, all enumerated as Brown. I’m pretty sure Margaret is Margaret McWatt Moodie, and I have a feeling John may also be the son of William Moodie, but I can’t find a baptism record to back that up.
1851:
27 Queen St, Paisley
David Brown, Head, 26, French Polisher, Renfrewshire - Paisley
Elizabeth Brown, Wife, 26, Renfrewshire - Barrhead
Margret Brown, Dau, 4, Renfrewshire - Barrhead
John Brown, Son, 2, Renfrewshire - Barrhead
Mathew Brown, 3m, Renfrewshire - Paisley
By 1861, the family are in Edinburgh:
1861:
10 Old Fish Market Close
David Brown, 37, warehouseman, Paisley, Renfrewshire
Elizabeth Brown, 36, Paisley, Renfrewshire
Margaret Brown, 13, Paisley, Renfrewshire
John Brown, 12, Paisley, Renfrewshire
Mathew Brown, 9, Paisley, Renfrewshire
Elizabeth Brown, 6, Paisley, Renfrewshire
Robert Brown, 5, Edinburgh
1871:
53 Thistle St
David Brown, 46, unemployed labourer, Paisley Renfrewshire
Elizabeth Brown, 46, Ruthven, Perthshire (sic)
Robert Brown, 13, Edinburgh
David Brown, 8, Edinburgh
Mathew Brown is lodging in Potterow. David Brown snr died in Edinburgh in December 1871. The couple had two other children registered in Edinburgh: James Brown, b. 1857, d. 1858; and Agnes Pearson Brown, b. 1866 d. 1868.
Elizabeth Cook remarried again in 1884 in Edinburgh to Michael Riley. She died in 1898 in Edinburgh. Her death was registered by her son, Mathew Brown and she is listed as the widow of David Brown and Michael Riley - no mention of William Moodie.
Margaret married as Margaret Moodie in Edinburgh in 1867 to James Millar. On her marriage record, her father’s name is recorded as James Moodie, but her mother is recorded as Elizabeth Brown, previously Moodie (ms Cook), so I’m pretty confident it’s her. The couple had at least 7 children, all born in Edinburgh: Thomas, James, John, David, Margaret, Alexander and Robert. Haven’t been able to track down a death for Margaret though.
As a postscript - the parish record for the proclamation of the marriage of William Moodie and Elizabeth Cook in Neilston states that there were three objections recorded: 1. William Moodie had already promised to marry one Ann Houston of Paisley; 2. On the faith of that promise, he was co-habiting with Ann Houston; and 3. Said Ann Houston was pregnant with his child. :o :o :o
Ruth
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Margaret Miller or Moodie died in Springburn, Glasgow in 1924 age 77 (644/6 280) From Scotlandspeople index.
Isobel
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Margaret Miller or Moodie died in Springburn, Glasgow in 1924 age 77 (644/6 280) From Scotlandspeople index.
Yes, I thought that would be her too - but sadly not :-\ This Margaret Miller was the widow of Daniel Miller, and her parents are given as Andrew Moodie and Margaret Turner...
Ruth
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Margaret married as Margaret Moodie in Edinburgh in 1867 to James Millar. On her marriage record, her father’s name is recorded as James Moodie, but her mother is recorded as Elizabeth Brown, previously Moodie (ms Cook), so I’m pretty confident it’s her. The couple had at least 7 children, all born in Edinburgh: Thomas, James, John, David, Margaret, Alexander and Robert.
Hmm - think I had the wrong Millar family there, but I do think I've now found James Millar and Margaret Moodie in 1871:
1871
Glasgow Barony
James Millar, 26, plumber, Edinburgh, head
Margaret Millar, 26, Barrhead, Renfrewshire, wife
Alexander Millar, 1, Edinburgh, son
John Brown Moodie, 23, upholsterer, Barrhead, Renfrewshire, brother
John Brown Moodie is, indeed, interesting - he's been enumerated as 'brother', but he's almost certainly Margaret Moodie's brother, rather than James Millar's ;D
Having trouble finding the family beyond 1871 though...
Ruth
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1881
41 St Mary Street, Edinburgh
James Millar, 34, plumber, Edinburgh
Margaret Millar, 31 (sic), Barrhead
Alexander Millar, 12, Edinburgh
David Millar, 6, Glasgow
John Millar, 4, Durham
They seem to be moving about a bit...
Ruth
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Wow! Ruth, you are a genius! I never would have found them, not in a million years. Thanks so much. Some great leads to follow too. :-)
John Brown Moodie is intriguing - can't wait to find out more about him. And John Millar, born Durham?! That was a surprise.
I wonder if any of the family came to Australia - two of Elizabeth Cook's brothers emigrated in 1853 and 1877.
Jan
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Think I've found Margaret in 1901 - but still no obvious death - it's a puzzle, that's for sure ???
1901
6a Simpsons Court, Edinburgh
David Millar, 27, head, porter, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Margaret Millar, 53, mother, charwoman, Barrhead, Lanarkshire (sic)
Robert Millar, 18, brother, sealing wax maker, Edinburgh
Ruth
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Well spotted! Looks like Margaret was a widow.
I might have found James Millar's death in the Edinburgh Evening News on 22 October 1897:
DEATHS Died on 19th, at Longmore Hospital, James Millar, plumber. Funeral on Friday. 22d, 3 o'clock, from Longmore Hospital. All friends invited. Deeply regretted.
The corresponding entry in the index on SP:
MILLAR JAMES 49 1897 685/5 1064 Newington
means a birth date ca 1848 which fits with the 1881 census you found (also his occupation of plumber).
I think I've found John Brown Moodie in 1881 in Glasgow:
John Brown 35 head Barrhead Renfrew machine operator
Ann Brown 33 wife Baldernock Stirlingshire
Agnes Brown 9 dau Glasgow
William Brown 7 son Glasgow
John Brown 5 son Glasgow
Robert Brown 1 son Glasgow
If this is him, it's interesting he named his first son William, which would suggest that his father was William Moodie and not David Brown.
Jan
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I think I've found John Brown Moodie in 1881 in Glasgow:
John Brown 35 head Barrhead Renfrew machine operator
Ann Brown 33 wife Baldernock Stirlingshire
Agnes Brown 9 dau Glasgow
William Brown 7 son Glasgow
John Brown 5 son Glasgow
Robert Brown 1 son Glasgow
I don't think that's him - this John Brown married Ann Scott McLeod in Glasgow in 1871 - his parents appear as William Brown and Margaret McIntyre on the marriage cert. :-\
Ruth
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Ah, I saw Barrhead and thought that fit ...
I found another child for Margaret Moodie and James Millar:
Name Elizabeth Amelia Millar
Gender Female
Birth Date 11 Dec 1867
Birthplace EDINBURGH PARISH,EDINBURGH,MIDLOTHIAN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name James Millar
Mother's Name Margaret Moodie
and her death
MILLAR ELIZABETH AMELI 1 MOODIE 1869 685/3 1164 Canongate
Jan
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I found Elizabeth Brown in 1881 in Edinburgh - no surprise who is living with her, although badly transcribed :-) Surely she didn't marry someone 24 years younger!
Elizabeth Brown 54 head Nelson Renfrewshire
Robert Brown 33 son Edinburgh van man
John Brown 26 Nelson Renfrewshire upholsterer (unemployed)
Michael Rully 30 boarder ireland general labourer
and I think this could be John Brown (Moodie) in 1891:
John Brown 24 head Barrhead Renfrewshire cooper machineman
Barbra Brown 25 wife Cranston Midlothian
Barbra Brown 1 Mo dau St Andrew Midlothian
Address: 5 Beaverhall Rd Edinburgh
and 1901:
John Brown 34 head Abbey Renfrewshire cooper's machineman
Barbara Brown 35 wife Cranston Midlothian
Barbara Brown 10 dau Edinburgh scholar
Andrew Brown 8 son Edinburgh scholar
Peter Brown 5 son Edinburgh scholar
John Brown 2 son Edinburgh
Alfred Wilson 31 brother in law Cranston Midlothian engine driver (stationary)
Address: 5 Beaverhall Rd Edinburgh
Jan
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I found Elizabeth Brown in 1881 in Edinburgh - no surprise who is living with her, although badly transcribed :-) Surely she didn't marry someone 24 years younger!
The ages all look out on this one - but it's certainly her, as the address is the same address she was at when she married Michael Riley in 1884. He was 58 when they married.
and I think this could be John Brown (Moodie) in 1891:
John Brown 24 head Barrhead Renfrewshire cooper machineman
Barbra Brown 25 wife Cranston Midlothian
Barbra Brown 1 Mo dau St Andrew Midlothian
Address: 5 Beaverhall Rd Edinburgh
and 1901:
John Brown 34 head Abbey Renfrewshire cooper's machineman
Barbara Brown 35 wife Cranston Midlothian
Barbara Brown 10 dau Edinburgh scholar
Andrew Brown 8 son Edinburgh scholar
Peter Brown 5 son Edinburgh scholar
John Brown 2 son Edinburgh
Alfred Wilson 31 brother in law Cranston Midlothian engine driver (stationary)
Address: 5 Beaverhall Rd Edinburgh
I think this is unlikely to be John Moodie/Brown - if it is, he's lost 20 years :o
Ruth
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I've found Elizabeth Cook again in 1891 - she's back calling herself Elizabeth Brown again (Micheal Riley died in 1887):
1891
6 Pleasance, Edinburgh
Elizabeth Brown, 67, charwoman, Neilston, Ayrshire (sic)
Ruth
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Ah, Michael's age makes more sense. Thanks for his death date.
I don't know what I was thinking with John Brown. My excuse is I've been working on this most of the day - it's been wet and windy all day.
Elizabeth Brown - another great find! I wonder why she started using Brown again. She doesn't have much idea of where Neilston is, does she? Perthshire in 1871, Ayrshire in 1891 :-)
Jan
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Just had a thought - I wonder if Michael Reilley was already married, so Elizabeth went back to using her former name.
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Michael Riley died in 1887, so it's no surprise that Elizabeth stopped using his name afterwards. It was common practice for widows in Scotland to revert to their maiden names after the death of their husbands (in Scotland, women aren't required to give up their maiden names on marriage). Granted, in this case, Elizabeth goes back to her former married name, but still.
And Micheal Riley was, indeed, married previously - he's identified as a widower on his marriage to Elizabeth Cook. He married Rosannah (Rose) McCall in Shotts, Lanarkshire in 1854. Rose died in Calton prison in Edinburgh in 1870.
Ruth
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Thanks, Ruth, I didn't realise they dropped their married names after their husbands died.
Interesting about Michael Riley's wife - I wonder what she was in prison for. Seems times were tough in those days.
Jan
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Thanks, Ruth, I didn't realise they dropped their married names after their husbands died.
Not always, but it's not uncommon.
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Re Matthew Brown, son of David Brown and Elizabeth Cook - seems he became a tobacconist (1871-1901) and worked for John Cotton Ltd for many years. His death - 13 November 1935 in The Scotsman :
BROWN At Marionville , 8 Sciennes Gardens , Edinburgh , on 12th November , MATTHEW BROWN , in his 84th year , beloved husband of Jessie Porteous and for many years with John Cotton Ltd . Funeral on Thursday 14th November , to Dairy Cemetery . Friends desiring to attend kindly meet at cemetery gates at 3 pm.
His wife, Jessie Ann, nee Porteous, (married 9 Aug 1872 Edinburgh) died 1960 Edinburgh, aged 97!
Their son, Alexander Porteous Brown, born about 1877 Edinburgh, died 1960 Leith. Still working on a marriage.
Jan
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Re Elizabeth Brown, bc 1855 Paisley Renfrewshire, daughter of David Brown and Elizabeth Cook - probable marriage to John Letterick 1874 Glasgow.
The 1891 census in Glasgow lists Elizabeth B Litterick born ca 1855 Barrhead Renfrewshire.
Her children include David B. Litterick 1877, Matthew Brown Litterick 1888, David and Robert Brown Litterick 1890.
These seem to fit with the Scottish naming pattern - Elizabeth Brown's father was David Brown, grandfather Matthew Brown and brother Robert Brown.
Jan
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Re Elizabeth Brown, bc 1855 Paisley Renfrewshire, daughter of David Brown and Elizabeth Cook - probable marriage to John Letterick 1874 Glasgow.
That certainly looks like her - I think this is the family in 1881, although the transcription of the children's names is hopeless:
1881
Dobbies Loan, Glasgow St Rollox
John Letterick, 30, carter, Mockrum, Wigton
Elizabeth Letterick, 26, Barrhead, Renfrewshire
Daniel Letterick, 3, Glasgow (this must be David - there is no Daniel registered)
Thomas Letterick, 1, Glasgow (this must be James - again, no Thomas registered)
David Brown, 20, boarder, Edinburgh
And looks like that's Elizabeth's brother, David, lodging with them. He went on to marry Jean/Jane Rae in Glasgow St Rollox in 1890.
I've found 9 children of John Litterick and Elizabeth Brown - all born in St Rollox:
Hugh Litterick b. 1876 d. 1877
David Brown Litterick b. 1877 d. 1937
James McArthur Litterick b. 1880 d. 1950
Elizabeth Ann Litterick b. 1882 d. 1883
John Litterick b. 1884 d. 1935
Agnes Philip McArthur Litterick b. 1887 d. 1950
Matthew Brown Litterick b. 1888 d. 1910
Robert Brown Litterick b. 1890 d. 1959
Samuel Litterick b. 1892 d. 1895
Elizabeth Litterick (nee Brown) died in 1926.
I'm curious about the McArthur middle name for two of the children, as McArthur is my family name - although my McArthurs were still in Aberdeenshire at this time - they didn't make it to Glasgow until around 1920.
Ruth
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Thanks Ruth, it's definitely the same family in 1881 - same address as 1891 and 1901. Plus having Elizabeth's brother there is a bonus. Thanks for filling in the gaps with the children too.
I found David Brown Letterick married Annie Duff. One of their children was named Agnes Millar Letterick. Wonder if the Millar came from Elizabeth Brown's side? :-)
I haven't come across any McArthurs on the Brown/Cook/Millar lines so I'd say McArthur must come from the Letterick side. More investigation needed.
Jan
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Just adding confirmation that John Brown Moodie is definitely Margaret Moodie's brother. He's listed in the Renfrewshire Poor Law record for Elizabeth Cook Moodie on 27 November 1849:
Children Living with Applicant
- Margaret (3), born Barrhead
- John (9 months), born Barrhead
William Moodie left Elizabeth on 18 May 1849.
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my gt gran was Jane McArthur Shaw, My granny and her sister always told us it was a family tradition to bestow a family surname as a middle name.
My granny was Margaret Milne Jolliffe.
Janes Mum was Helen Brown Smillie.
It seems to have to have passed 2 generations until now,my children have been chatting about it,but so so far only 1 grandchild has been given our family name of Reilly as a christian name,not a midddle name.
Isabella