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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: fedupp on Saturday 30 September 17 14:56 BST (UK)
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Looking for info on 89 Baty. 35 light AA regt RA 1939 -43.
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If you are looking for war diaries:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-operations-second-world-war/
Service records for personnel are still with the MOD; you can apply for a copy which costs £30.
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Brief history here https://web.archive.org/web/20160331000328/http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/laa/page29.html
For the period 39-43 for 35 LAA Regt at the National Archives. Select relevant dates from these
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/advanced-search?_aq=35%20Light%20anti%20aircraft%20regiment&_nq1=engineers&_nq2=special&_nq3=surrey&_dss=range&_sd=1939&_ed=1943&_ro=any&_st=adv
Includes some Part Two Orders for 89 Battery. 89 Battery on its own does not seem to have a war diary (quite usual)
All these require a visit to Kew or copying.
MaxD
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Nanny jan and MaxD thank you.....just wondering , do you have to be a close relative to apply for personnel records from WW 2 ?
MaxD what are part two orders ?
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If you do not qualify as next of kin (in the MOD info sheet) then you need to get permission from next of kin to apply for the full record (personal details). If not you get the basic record.
I've just applied for the record of my mum's first husband (short marriage as he died 1947); I can only get the basic as not next of kin and have been unable to find any to get permission. Think I have most of his background anyway.
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Nanny jan .thanks .what info is given on short record ?
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Just looked at link provided by MaxD .interesting !
Anyone know if sumatra and or Java were known as or included in Dutch east Indies in the 1940s ??
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Part two orders are rarely found in the records because they are very low down in the hierarchy of orders produced by the many levels of the army.. They are administrative records produced by the unit itself recording the movements in and out of personnel on posting and attachment, promotions, hospital and so on. Each entry relates to an individual of the unit and thus, where a war diary rarely mentions a soldier by name, Pt2Os always name individuals and the occurrence that gives rise to the entry.
My earlier link was not good, (rushing a bit!). The Pt2O record is at:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11603440 although I've just noticed it refers to 1945.
Other records are at:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=35%20Light%20anti%20aircraft%20regiment&_nq1=searchlight&_nq2=171&_nq3=sussex&_dss=range&_sd=1939&_ed=1943&_ro=any&_p=1925&_st=adv
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11604064
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11483489
Regarding not next of kin - the guidance says that someone without nok permission can, if the person died more than 25 years ago, get rather more than the basic facts, see
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=35%20Light%20anti%20aircraft%20regiment&_nq1=searchlight&_nq2=171&_nq3=sussex&_dss=range&_sd=1939&_ed=1943&_ro=any&_p=1925&_st=adv
Modified, see next post
MaxD
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Sumatra and Java - yes.
MaxD
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Apologies - my copy and paste technique seems to hit the skids!
The last link should have been to :
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/545056/request_service_details_general_enquirers_pt1_v6.pdf
Festina lente
MaxD
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MaxD thanks and nil desperandum .
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MaxD thanks for links . As you said earlier , not many records digatalised. ! ah well ......have to go on my" TO DO" list.
What about casualty and POW records for this theatre /dutch east indies ,singapore, hongkong for this period. 1941- 43 ?
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As far as I know the basic record is various courses, postings, promotions, etc. but without personal details (name of Nok, address, previous occupation, date of birth, religion....think that's it!).
Going on what was released for my late uncle's RAF service......away from my files at the moment.
Hope that helps!
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Nanny jan thanks for that.
Would you or anyone else know of any on line resources for POWs and casualties in the far east?
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Have you tried FEPOW?
http://www.fepow.family/
CWGC has info from the far east; I have a distant cousin buried in Myanmar.
https://www.cwgc.org/
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As far as I know the basic record is various courses, postings, promotions, etc. but without personal details (name of Nok, address, previous occupation, date of birth, religion....think that's it!).
Going on what was released for my late uncle's RAF service......away from my files at the moment.
Hope that helps!
For the avoidance of doubt, as indicated by MaxD if the person concerned died more then 25 years ago then the full record is available to anyone who cares to apply subject to proof of death (not necessary if subject died in service) and payment of £30.
Imber
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Thanks Imber; I was both emailed and telephoned by the Army disclosures department asking if I was acting for n-o-k and was given different information by them but as I have other paperwork I'll not go back to them.......but will remember for the future! ;)
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IMBER thanks for info on applying for records.
Nanny jan ,thanks for FePow,
Interesting and Some good links. Still looking through links .
Ref. CWGC ,yes already have info from them . Person I'm researching buried at Sai wan cem on Hong Kong island . But thanks for that .
I'm just trying to find out what happend to him .
Looks as if two troops from 89 baty were sent to java. Possibly to defend two airstrips !?? He could have been in one of these troops ?? . As the japs invaded troops fought as infantry untill surrender. Circa March 1942 ??
The DOD I have is Nov. 1942 so, he must have been a POW of Japs ,though as yet don't know any more !
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Does the "history information" section on the cemetery page give you any more clues?
https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2000320/sai-wan-war-cemetery/
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You may have done it already but a Google search on "35 LAA Regt in Java" throws up a number of things, including a piece from a distinguished Gunner historian - worth a read for context at least.
MaxD
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Nanny jan thanks . Just had a quick look at CWGC iink you posted . Will look in more detail later .
Previous info I had in 2011 off this site is as follows .
Gunner Emrys Morgan
1737745 ,89 Baty,35 Lt AA Reg royal artillery ,who died age 34 on nov 1942. Son of john and jessie morgan.
Also have mention in memorial bOok , same info. Also uk army roll of honour off Anc. Which gives same info ...plus theatre of war as netherlands east indies .
Also have 3 items of FindMyPast few. Years back, one says presumed died whilst POW N.E.I another written in on typed sheet says POW java .
MaxD thanks I will look that up later . And yes MaxD , you may have noticed his surname of Morgan . He was the son of " John morgan what happened to you? " Post From WW I boards.
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Not realy relevant but many years ago I spent some time in hong kong and visited many places on HK island ,must have passed close by Sai wan .I didn't know then that" M" was buried there , strange isn't it !!!??
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MaxD thanks .actually on this occasion I hadn't gOogled this subject . Don't know why ? Have now done so!
Spent a few hours looking at results. I realise things must have been chaotic in the singapore area but I'm finding it a little difficult understanding the dispersements of 89 bty 35 LAA reg . There are conflicting stories from even people who were there. Eg.
At the sinking of SS anting. Did all but 1 gunner of 2 troops of 89 baty drown or not?
Does anyone know. Which 2 troops of 89 baty were sent to summatra in late jan 1942 with 78 baty who in feb 1942 were forced to retreat to java abandoning their guns in process ?
Was it A and B troop ?
Can anyone tell me how many troops were in 89 baty at this time ?
Where can I find the history of 89 baty TA ?
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Would anyone know if for a RA reg of this type ( 35 LAA ) the norm was 4 guns to a troop ?
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The piece by Brigadier John Lewendon is as definitive as I believe you will get. He says:
The dearth of information about a Gunner presence in the Netherlands East Indies in the earlier part of 1942 was brought home to me in the RA Library Archives. This is not surprising when it is remembered that:-
a. No Unit War diary has survived from the Java/Sumatra campaign of 1942 - precious few survived from the Malayan Campaign.
b. Such campaign accounts that do exist were mostly written over three years later at the end of a traumatic period as POWs of the Japanese in the most appalling and bestial conditions.
c. The events themselves lasted for barely four weeks.
Brigadier Lewendon was at one time the Historical Secretary of the Royal Artillery and has written extensively on the Royal Artillery and the piece comes from his research in the RA Library and Archives so I'd say he has covered all there is to know about this difficult time.
I have already highlighted what I can find at the National Archives for the regiment and the battery (Brig Lewendon notes that none survive for the relevant time!) so there is no "history of 89 baty TA" that you ask for. I've looked for National Archive material for 78 Battery but nothing comes up that would answer the question about the two troops (I have seen one ref that says only B troop went with 78 Battery). The number of troops in a LAA Regiment was not always the same, I've come across three and four although the most usual was four troops of 4 guns each.
I note this reference in the Imperial War Museum: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030003821
is the papers of an officer who served in 89 Battery in Java. You should contact the IWM staff to see what is involved in seeing these papers.
I fear the detail you are looking for is the sort of nitty gritty that only deep research with original documents will uncover and my view is that there is unlikely to be anything out there that hasn't already been referenced. Contact with FEPOW as Nanny Jan has recommended would be a good idea.
MaxD
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MaxD thanks, looks as if it's going to take a lot of time and effort to find out any more detail . I did see a few items that could explain a lot ,held by national archives , but not digitised would entail visit !! I will though later , cotact IWM to see if they may help.
I just thought there may be somebody out there who had previously researched this theatre, And 35 LAA reg in detail and may. Have been able to help !!
I knew it was awfull out there but the more I read , the more I realise how terrible it must have been for our boys and the unimaginable cruelties they suffered.
Thanks for your help !
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Another IWM find:
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1500019079 I can't find the "35th LAA Regimental Association FEPOW Fund" listed as the publisher but again the IWM may be able to help.
See also my PM
MaxD
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Looking for info on 89 Baty. 35 light AA regt RA 1939 -43.
Hi
I have not been following this thread, but noticed you appear to have some links for the Regt (Regiment) but found this below for September 1939, which possibly indicates an amalgamated battery (Bty)?
Series reference WO 166 refers to Home Forces only, (WO War Office).
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=89%20battery&_col=0&_cr=WO%7CADM%7CAIR%7CHO&_dss=range&_sd=1939&_ed=1945&_ro=any&_hb=tna&_st=adv
For 89 Battery, there only seems to be this one ...
The National Archives, Kew
WO 166/1587
ROYAL ARTILLERY: FIELD BATTERIES: 89/90 Field Battery.
1939 September
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C787643
It looks like an R.A. in 1939, as opposed to R.E. (Royal Engineers).
These were original records when they were released early, so you'll need a "Readers Ticket" AND ALL THE REQUIRED INDENTIFICATION EVEN IF RENEWING an out of date "Readers Ticket".
From time to time during a year, you'll find a "Layout List" or Communications list, with a diagram of telephone lines with the Batteries and/or Numbers with their locations named, photograph these, as they can really help with further research, in the hierarchy. Once you break down this hierarchy, you may trace a mention of something in a neighbouring Unit War Diary, or higher up the chain of command.
My Grandfather's friendly 1940 air crash report which was obviously passed up from local batteries in the Southampton locality, but actually appeared higher up the chain in A.A. Brigade (Bde.) and A.A. Division (Div.) War Diary records.
Regards Mark
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Mark
You are referring to a Field Battery that was called 89/90. The thread is about 89 Light Anti Aircraft (LAA) Battery and you have also linked to 89 Anti-Tank Regiment.
is the one I referred to earlier in the thread (irrelevant anyway as it refers to 1945).
The same numbers given to different types of RA units is a well know Heffalump trap, some say done deliberately!
MaxD
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Mark
You are referring to a Field Battery that was called 89/90. The thread is about 89 Light Anti Aircraft (LAA) Battery and you have also linked to 89 Anti-Tank Regiment.
is the one I referred to earlier in the thread (irrelevant anyway as it refers to 1945).
The same numbers given to different types of RA units is a well know Heffalump trap, some say done deliberately!
MaxD
Hello Max
So it has changed from the original title 35 Light A.A. Regt. and not from 1939?
I agree, best to start with the Unit concerned first.
Mark
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Bushinn1746 , Hi Mark. Thank you for your help and links , also advice on Nat archives ,very informative.
I think ref my seach which is for info on...... 89 baty.... _35_reg RA. Not 89/90 field baty . It does get a little confusing . Good of you to try and help.
There may though have been some sort of change
With the local TA units as you suggested .
I had two uncles whom I had thought served with the same unit , now I'm thinking maybe/ maybe not
as one ended up in BEF and was evacuated from Dunkirk , the other ended up on Malta for couple of years , he.. said that at one stage , they were so short of food they ate rats and grass/ plants . Don't know if this was true but, I was told the young lad who went out certainly wasn't the same person coming back .
I shall have to spend more time researching TA units in the area . Thank you mark.
MaxD thanks "on the ball as usual "! many thanks also for PM and suggestion within.
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Mark
Not sure about your last post. 89 Light Anti Aircraft Battery was one of the three (by 1943) batteries (sub units) of 35 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment. None changed title during the war, those mentioned are all different units with different guns and tasks.
MaxD
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Can anyone tell me if the ships. Yoshida maru , singapore maru or any other japanese "hellships" carrying POWs to japan from Java / singapore stopped off in hong kong up to middle of november 1942 on the way to japan / china ? Thanks
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I have re-visited CWGC site as someone suggested and found that many of the poor souls buried at sai wan military cemetry , Hong Kong, were originaly buried as far away as Formosa (Taiwan) and even Java .
Seems that many were moved there in 1946 /47. I have e-mailed CWGC to see if they have any more information on emrys morgan .
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Looks as if. Gnr. Emrys morgan died on the island of Formosa ( Taiwan). Didn't realise that there were
approx. 14 POW camps there,
One website mentions that most of the high ranking allied officers also the govenors of hong kong, singapore, java and guam were held there .
.
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Just heard from CWGC confirming that Gnr Emrys Morgan was previously buried in N.Daichoku cemetry, Taihoku, Formosa (Taiwan) . Most of those who died there were. Re-buried at Sai Wan,Hong Kong.
Can't find his name mentioned as a POW in Taiwan ,unless he like many others died on one of the japanese "hell ships". ..OR shortly after arriving ?
Does anyone have any info on the N.Daichoku cemetery at Taihoku ??
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Just came across this thread. To clarify a couple of points. On arrival Singapore 35 Regt split. RHQ, 144 Battery, BHQ 89 Battery and A and C Troops 89 Battery went into Malaya. 78 Battery and B Troop 89 Battery remained on Singapore Island defending airfields and the Naval Base. Around 27 Jan, 78 Battery and B Troop 89 Battery were sent to Sumatra to defend Airfields P1 and P2 and the oil installations at Pelembang. Later on with the withdrawal from Malaya BHQ 89 Battery together with A and C Troops were sent to Sumatra. Unfortunately enroute they were sunk. All bar one L/Bdr were saved and taken to Oosthaven. Both 78 and 89 Batteries, now complete but with no guns, then moved from Sumatra to Java. 35 Regt LAA War Diaries to end Jan 42 exist at the National Archives but I have been unable to find any Battery Diaries.
As regards Gnr Morgan, I would very much suspect that he died on board the 'Singapore Maru'.
Lt Col Scott, in an affidavit , reports that on arrival Takow, Formosa on 13 November 42, 8 bodies were sent ashore for cremation and 21 sick were put ashore.
Tim
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Re last Post. Working too quickly. It looks as if Gnr Morgan died very shortly after being landed from the Singapore Maru rather than on board.
Tim