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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: blacksmithy on Saturday 07 October 17 09:59 BST (UK)
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Hi and thanks for any thoughts in advance!
I have been looking for confirmation of John Welsh being buried at Evergreens Cemetery. He died 3 April 1900 and was buried 8 April. Age 44. His birth place was Scotland. Parents are Janet and John Welsh living in Scotland. I believe he was married but no name is known. He lived at 86 57th Street Brooklyn, so I am assuming this is where he is buried. Unfortunately I have had no reply from Evergreens, but expect they get lots of vague queries like this.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Blacksmithy
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What is your last sighting of John ??? When did John immigrate to the USA ???
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WFW-75B
Sandra
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Thanks for such a quick reply. My last confirmed record is 1st march 1882 when he served on the ship Indus, in England as a blacksmith. His date of birth is 21 January 1856 (confirmed with SRB). I have no firm link to the USA but everything on the record you found seems to fit.
Any further thoughts would be welcome.
Blacksmithy
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The transcription of his death certificate indicates he was buried at Evergreens. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WFW-75B
Not all cemeteries are responsive to e-mail. I would think a phone call during business hours might be more effective. Otherwise, you could try adding him to www.findagrave.com and request a photo from a volunteer. It could take years to get a photo, but it has worked for me at times.
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Have you traced the others siblings ??? Is this the family in 1871 13 Baris Brae Fort Govan Lanarkshire ???
John Welch 30 Ship Carpenter.
Janet Welch 34
John Welch 13 William Welch 10
George Welch 8 Elizabeth Welch 6
Margaret Welch 3 Hugh Welch 1
Same family appear 47 Harrison Street Barrow In Furness 1881 - perhaps moved for work in the ship yards ???
John Welch 46 Janet Welch 44
William Welch 20 George Welch 18
Elizabeth Welch 16 Hugh Welch 11
Margaret Welch 13 Janet Welch 8
Jasmine Welch 4 Emma Welch 2 David Welch
Catherine Oswald 62
Andrew Oswald 24
Have you checked out the 1892 New York State Census for John ???
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1529100
Sandra
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Here's what I'm seeing
John's wife was Helen Simpson. John died when Helen was pregnant with their son John.
In the 1900 census Helen and daughter Agnes are listed at 86 57th st in Brooklyn, same as John's death record. Helen is a widow. Helen's name was mis transcribed in the transcription.
1900 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSFF-XCS
Son John was born Nov. 1900.
Birth: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W45-DPN
1905 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MK95-9D8
1910 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5S9-6JF
John Jr dies in 1918. Buried in Evergreen Cemetery
Death Record: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WNT-QR6
1920 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MJ5W-YMK
1930 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4N5-ZKJ
1940 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KQR4-86N
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Helen dies in 1941. Buried in Evergreen Cemetery
Death record: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WPR-6K6
Obit: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kud/
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This appears to be the marriage record for John & Helen/Ellen. Names & ages matches.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FZ2Q-LPP
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Marriage of Agnes Welsh - 17 October 1923 -
Longuemare Dana Oct 17 1923 13592 Kings
http://www.italiangen.org/records-search/brides.php
Death of Agnes Longuemare - 24 March 1982 - March 1984
Last Residence 11944 Greenport, Suffolk, New York.
WW1 Draft - Dana Longuemare
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-XCM4-9KL?i=1753&cc=1861144
Dana Longuemare - 1880 - 3 November 1950 - Brooklyn, New York.
Cert 20820
1925 Brooklyn Kings NY
Danna Longuemare 44 Real Estate Broker.
Agnus Fonguemare 33
Helen Welsh 69
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KS3Q-LQC
Few references to Dada Longuemare on http://www.fultonhistory.com/Fulton.html
and https://www.newspapers.com/search/#lnd=1&query=dana+longuemare&t=1890
Sandra
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In the 1910 census there is an Alexander Welsh listed in the household as a border. He is actually Helen's nephew (her husband John's brother, Alexander's son)
1910 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5S9-6JV
He died in 1932. His death record list his parents as Alexander & Marion Welsh. From this I assume John Welsh b.1856 Scotland must of had a brother Alexander.
Death Record: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WKH-JRM
Alexander's will in 1932 left his estate to his cousin Agnes Longuemare
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kuf/
Alexander's obit in 1932 states he was the nephew of Helen Welsh
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kug/
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These records should help to attach John Welsh and his brother Alexander to a famliy in Scotland.
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Just in case your interested in the Simpson family - this looks like the parents and siblings of Helen/Ellen - Johns wife.
3 Newmonthill St Forfar Angus 1871
Charles Simpson 46 and Agnes Simpson 44
Hellen Simpson 15
John Simpson 12
Isabel Simpson 7
Margaret Jean Simpson 4 marries Alexander Thompson Heron - Manhattan 26 November 1890
Richard Simpson 1
Margaret's marriage - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F638-JJ3
Alexander Heron (Blacksmith) signs the naturalization form for Alexander Welch born 12 April 1874 on 12 March 1896.
Alexander Welch arrived in New York 25 September 1890
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVTW-TXXF
The father Charles Simpson passed away 7 November 1878 - 3 Newmonthill, Forfar, Angus, Scotland.
and mother Agnes nee Nichol Simpson passed away 15 May 1887 - 3 Newmonthill, Forfar, Angus,
Sandra
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Helen/Ellen's sister Margaret - Douglass Street Brooklyn Ward 9, Kings, New York 1910
Alex Heron 55 and Margaret Heron 43
Helen Heron 18
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5CG-TQ4
Helen Simpson Heron - 22 October 1891 Manhattan, New York. Certificate Number 38890
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FDTG-V6P
1900 Douglass Street Brooklyn Ward 9, Kings, New York.
Alexander Heron 44 Blacksmith. Imm 1884.
Margret Heron 22
Helen Heron 8
Helen Simpson Heron in 1940 - Lodger in Brooklyn
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KQ98-2NP
Sandra
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New York, State Census, 1905 - Brooklyn NY - possible wife of Alexander Welsh.
Elizabeth Buchanan 44 Maud Buchanan 24
James Buchanan 16William Buchanan 13
Christina Buchanan 10 Roy Buchanan 8
Clarence Buchanan 5
Lizzie Welsh 22 Alexander Welsh 31
in 1910 Lizzie is Elizabeth Buchanan and single.
Robert Buchanan 52
Eliza Buchanan 49
Elizabeth Buchanan 28 Born Scotland. Single. Works Tin Factory.
William Buchanan 18
Tennie Buchanan 15
Roy Buchanan 13
Clarence Buchanan 10
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5M8-CL4
Prospect Avenue Brooklyn Ward 22, Kings, New York. 1900 (Lizzie unmarried)
Robert Buchannan 42 Elisabeth Buchannan 39
Maud Buchannan 19 Lizzie Buchannan 17
James Buchannan 12 William Buchannan 8
Christina Buchannan 5 Robert Buchannan 2
1915 Census New York Kings - shows Alexander Welsh aged 41 years - Fireman boarding Ella Conlan aged 42 years
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K9R8-HWN
1920 Census shows Alexander Welsh ( guard - factory) in the household of Ella Corman.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RXT-JS6?i=62&cc=1488411
1930 Census shows Alexander Welsh (labourer - Odd Job Man) in the household of Ella Colman
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4JM-GQC
Sandra
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John A Welsh death 19 October 1904 Brooklyn NY - father Alexander Welsh - Mother Elizabeth Buchanan
Burial Evergreen Cemetery 18 October 1904
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WFN-461
Sandra
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Alexander Welsh's WWI draft registration list nearest relative as Ellen Welsh and he he was blacksmiths helper.
WWI Draft: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KXY8-Y72
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Hi Sandra, RJ137 and Shellyesq
what awesome work you have done and it is much appreciated. I have spent the morning (NZ) feeling sure the link was right but there was a nagging doubt as I had been looking at some of the same names but couldn't link. Anyway problem solved I think thanks to the link to Alexander, the fact he was a boarder and his naturalization which provided a DOB of 12 April 1874.
Yes John did have a number of siblings creating nephews for Helen. The twist I now feel certain about is that John's sister Marion married Robert Watters in Scotland in 1874. They had a baby not long after (12 April 1874) and called him Alexander. Marion died on 27 January 1876 of Puperal Mania in Scotland. I have not found a possible baby birth/death for this event. Alexander is recorded as being with his grandparents in the Scotland Census of 1881 - Janet Smith (MS Laird) & John Welsh (blacksmith). Alexander's father has completely vanished as far as I can see, so assuming rightly or wrongly Alexander took his mother's surname.
Would be happy to be proved wrong (maybe!) and would welcome the thoughts of you who are all more experienced than me.
Thanks again :)
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You are very welcome. Glad I was able to help and make the connection for you.
I agree with your thought process and it all makes sense. I assume this is the birth record referred too.
Birth: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F73R-9BL
After finding Alexander's DOB I tried to see if I could find a birth for a Alexander Welsh with that date, but couldn't. Now I know why!! :)
Beside the DOB matching the address (86 57th Street Brooklyn) on the Naturalization Card matches previous known information about John & Helen Welsh.
Naturalization: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVTW-TXXF
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Great result blacksmithy, so pleased your mystery is solved - we love to break down brick walls.
A few small snippets on Robert Watters - Using credits for Scotlands People - Robert Watters (railway carter and widow) remarried again 24 November 1876 - to Annie Mills (domestic and spinster) Roberts father listed as Alexander Watters (deceased) mother Janet m/s Patterson (those parents tally with the same details as on Roberts marriage to Marion Welsh)
Annie's father was William Mills (deceased) and mother Margaret Mills (m/s Hamilton)
Robert appears on the 1901 census Reid's Bldgs Kerse Rd 8 Falkirk Scotland.
Parish: Falkirk ED: 8C Page 119 Line 13
Robert Watters 49 Carter (general)
Annie Watters 46
Daughter Watters14 William Watters 11
Marion Watters 9 Jeanie Watters 7
James Johnstone 24 Nephew.
1861 census Union Street Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire
Alexander Watters 55
Janet N Watters 51
Marion Watters 24
James Watters 15
Ann Watters 12
Robert Watters 9
John Paterson 4 Nephew.
Peter Kay 32 Son-in-law.
Peter had married Marion Watters 7 December 1860 Kirkintilloch,Dunbarton,Scotland.
Robert transcribed as Baker in 1871 with parents - Drumfrochar Rd 55 Greenock Renfrewshire.
Alexander Baker 64
Janet Baker 60
Robert Baker 19
John Paterson 14
Father Alexander passed away 1875
WATTERS ALEXANDER - aged 70 - 1875 - 487/ 78 - Polmont
Robert passed away 1913
WATTERS ROBERT - aged 60 - 1913 - 479/ 126 - Falkirk
Sandra
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Interestingly William Watters (son of Robert Watters and Annie Mills ) born 1 April 1889 passed away 4 July 1943 415 Marlborough Road Brooklyn, Kings, New York.
William was a proof reader for the N.Y.Times. William is also buried at Evergreen Cemetery.
Wonder if the half-brothers met in the USA ???
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WTR-RH1
1930 census shows William East 31st St Brooklyn Kings NY
William Watters 41 Born Scotland. Imm 1925. Printer. Newspaper. AL.
Annie Watters 36 Born Scotland.
Robert Watters 7 Born Scotland.
Margaret Watters 5
William Watters married Annie Smith Pollock - 1922 - 644/2 29 - Camlachie Scotland.
Robert Watters born 23 March 1923 Glasgow Scotland - Passed away 27 November 2000
William Watters and Mother Anne S Pollock.
Appears on US Veterans Gravesite - Bethlehem Cemetery Delmar, NY 12054
Last Residence 11415 Jamaica, Queens, New York.
Robert listed Daily Times obituary Index -
WATTERS, Robert - 77 years - Glasgow SCT - Albany NY - Daily Gazette - 2000-11-29; kkg
http://obits.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/obit.cgi?Surname=WATTERS%2C%20Robert&type=Keyword
415 Marlborough Road. Brooklyn. NY - 5724045 Annie Watters was naturalized 4 November 1943 - US Dist Court Brooklyn - Petition Number 378740 -
resides - 381 E 21 st St BK.
WW1 Draft - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3XY-2TT
Sandra
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Doris Dean Watters (1927 - 2017 - with photo) wife of Robert Watters.
passed away on March 31, 2017 surrounded by her loving family. She was the wife of Robert Watters for 52 years before his death in 2000. She is the daughter of the late William I. and Margot Larson Dean; and sister of the late William J. Dean. Doris was a long time resident of Delmar......etc etc........
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/timesunion-albany/obituary.aspx?pid=184807900
Sandra
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Hi
what a great team effort, thanks for all your hard work. I have spent the day pulling it all together and have added a considerable amount of information to my family history book - and better still have found some new relations albeit they are no longer with us. Unfortunate to see a couple of very young deaths but life was tough and there would have been a multitude of reasons for an early death.
Again many many thanks
Blacksmithy :D
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There is a curiosity whether William Watters (half brother to Alexander Welsh) ever met - in New York or was it just coincidence they were there afor a short time before Alexander Welsh passed away - probably one of those questions that never gets an answer. :'(
Sandra
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Yes more questions than answers. I cannot establish if Alexander continued to live with his grandparents (John and Janet) after the 1881 Scotland census where he appeared to be with them.
However they were elderly and died in 1891 &1895 so perhaps it was time to leave them or perhaps he had had enough of his father and stepmother, or maybe he was after adventure and a better life!! Although Alexander's Naturalization record states he arrived in New York 25 September 1890 I have not found an emigration or immigration shipping record for him under Watters or Welsh. Brooklyn had a popn. of over 1m in 1900 so perhaps he didn't meet up with John but I do wonder if maybe it was his intent to go to NY because John was there.
Alexander and John also had relations in Canada but those relatives had left Scotland in 1870 so it is unlikely they would have been an attraction for Alexander.
I do wonder what questions our great great grandchildren will ponder about us and the decisions and choices we make :D
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Although Alexander's Naturalization record states he arrived in New York 25 September 1890 I have not found an emigration or immigration shipping record for him under Watters or Welsh.
The name is transcribed as Alex Walsh.
Ship Arrival: 24 Sept. 1890
Age: 16 (b.1874)
Calling: Blacksmith
Citizen of: Scotland
Line 50, last entry bottom of page.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVPF-BVGS
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Brilliant and thanks RJ137,
this family now feels complete in recorded fact.
Thank you to everyone who helped with the mysteries