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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: John McElroy on Tuesday 10 October 17 11:41 BST (UK)
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Charles Frederick Trinder between 1820 & 1825 in, Oxfordshire- England, son of James a stone cutter born in Standlake, Oxfordshire & Rachel ? of Oxfordshire- it was reported in Charlesʼs prison record (post arrival) at Melbourne gaol, that he arrived in Sydney per the vessel the “British Sovereign” at age 17 in 1839 from Deptford, England; as part of the 96th Regiment. His wife was Mary “Molly” Halls...they married Sept 1853 in Greenvale in Victoria, Mary a servant girl aged 20; Charles aged 28 - a Shipwright---he died 1898 Croydon Victoria aged 75 ?
Now I do know Charles was a "Crook"---I'm struggling to believe his 1st marriage was at 28, I don't believe he was a soldier or a Shipwright, more likely a run away convict..any contribution would be greatly appreciated.
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British Sovereign only made one voyage to Australia with convicts and that was on 16 December 1840. The ship arrived in Van Diemen's Land on 17 March 1841. There were 20 convicts on board all of which were from Ireland. Charles Frederick Trinder is not recorded. Source: convictrecords.com.au
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There is a Oxfordshire newspaper report from 1847 saying he was transported for 7 years for robbery.
Regards
Roger
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It looks like he was on board "Hashemy" departing Dec.1848,arriving June 1849.
https://convictrecords.com.au/ships/hashemy/1848
Regards
Roger
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Not sure why you think it odd that his first marriage would be aged 28. Sounds plausible to me.
There are a few Charles Trinder in Australia in the early 1800s.
When was he in jail?
I'd think that if he was a runaway convict that he wouldn't be using his real name.
Jamjar
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Charles TRINDER tried Berkshire, arrived per Hashemy 1849, Sydney NSW.
Ticket of Leave 1849 #0093 for Illawarra district
Ticket of Leave 1851 #0079 for Maitland district
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convicts/indexes
JM
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Hi & thank you all,
Majm/Despair--Not the "Hashemy" in 1849-- as the year is wrong..he claims 1839 ?
Jamjar--Melbourne Gaol in 1863 for Purgery he did 3 years...he claims in his prison record he was on the "British Sovereign" to Sydney 1839 from Deptford as part of 96th Regiment aged 17 ? (a Convict guarding regiment)-- & discharged in 1844 aged 22 -which seems a bit young. He also claims himself a Shipwright at time of Marriage?--when did he learn that ? (but he was a wood carter after marriage why not a Shipwright ?)
I checked & the "British Sovereign" never arrived in Sydney 1839 but did so in 38 & 40, but only as a passenger ship--Why would they send a 17 year old soldier out on passenger ship ?
Jamjar--Why do I think he had been married b4 aged 28 ?--because almost immediately on getting out of prison he took an Aboriginal mistress & had another 5 children--whilst still living with his wife.
So he clearly was not the most moral bloke :)
He was the master of mudding the waters, so yes I can't even be sure his real name was Charles, I noted his eldest son was named William ? outside of tradition of the time.
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Is this your family?
BDM VIC births
1855 / 1159 TRINDER Unnamed Male parents Charles / Mary (Halls)
1856 / 1246 TRINDER Emma Rosanna parents Charles / Mary (Hall)
1857 / 13937 TRINDER Rachel parents Charles / Mary (Halls)
1862 / 14254 TRINDER Fanny parents Charles / Mary (Halls)
1864 / 14784 TRINDER Charles parents Charles / Mary (Halls)
Charles TRINDER in gaol 1864 + 3 years
1867 / 9046 TRINDER Mercy Prent parents Charles / Mary (Hall)
1868 / 24230TRINDER Margaret parents Charles / Mary (Hall)
1870 / 24056 TRINDER Elizabeth parents Charles / Mary (Hall)
1874 / 16851 TRINDER Christian Ann parents Charles / Mary (Hall)
1877 / 16758 TRINDER Rosamond parents Charles / Mary (Hall)
1880 / 9913 TRINDER James Freeland parents Chas / Mary (Hall)
Death
1872 / 7147 TRINDER John parents Charles / Mary (Unknown)
The Age 16 Jul 1872
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5864528?searchTerm=%22trinder%
....death of John TRINDER...at death he is identified to be born to unmarried sister of Mrs TRINDER, and raised as her own.....
The Age 17 May 1864
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155011503?searchTerm=%22trinder%
....perjury matter ...Charles TRINDER.....sister in law Emma HALL........
I think this is the death of Emma HALLS?
1871 / 633 LUGG Emma parents Halls Joseph K / Margaret (King)
d. ESSE 38yrs spouse Henry LUGG
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Wivenhoe, I think you'll find that the OP knows all about the family in VIC.
Jamjar
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Thanks Wivenhoe,
Yep you found in 5 minutes that took me months :)
Mary “Molly” Halls born about 1833 Radwinter, Essex, England, Great Britain - daughter of Abraham & Sarah (or Rebecca) Saville, the girls sent to colony out of the poor house - Mary died. 1901 in Lilydale, Yarra valley, at 68 yrs.--she could read & write.---sister to Emma Halls married Jacobs.
5 of the last 6 of the children were to an Aboriginal woman named "Alice"---although all are claimed as Mary Halls as the mother I assume without her knowledge (assumed done so, so Charles could get a Beer Lic., living with blacks was not helpful in that sort of application).
My hurdle is finding out about Charles prior to 1853 ?
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Using the available online records for Oxfordshire, I can't see a Charles Trinder baptised during the years 1810-1830 who has parents named James and Rachel. Neither can I see a likely marriage of a James Trinder to a Rachel.
The Charles Trinder who was transported in 1847 was recorded as aged 30 at the time of his conviction. There is one tree on Ancestry which includes this man. It shows him as having died at Launceston, Tasmania in 1859.
Someone you might consider is a Charles West. He was baptised at Hanborough on 13 November 1825, the son of James West (labourer) and Rachel.
James West married Rachel Trinder at Hanborough in 1824 (Ancestry has banns, but not marriages for Hanborough at this time).
This couple also baptised children named James (1827), Mark (1828), Rose (1830), Eli (1833), and Rosanna (1836).
Things did not go well for this family. Rachel died in 1838, and in 1841 I can find one of their children (Eli) in Witney Union workhouse, and another (Mark) in prison, aged 12. I haven't found Charles as yet.
However in 1844 a man named Charles West was convicted at Oxford Quarter sessions of stealing a quart jug and a quart cup. From the Oxford University and City Herald 2 March 1844:
West, the prisoner, behaved very indecorously in the Court. During the examination of the principal witness....he endeavoured to cast off one of his boots, to throw it at her head; and when called upon for his defence, he threatened to kill her.
He was sentenced to seven years transportation on 27 February. The criminal register records his age as 18 (so likely born 1825). He shows up in the transportation registers as travelling on the Maria Somes.
Of course this isn't enough evidence as it stands, but might be worth pursuing
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His physical description is a good match (hair, eyes etc).
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON33-1-57,271,260,F,60
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON14-1-22,230,220,L,80
(father James, Brothers James, Mark and Ely)
Charles WEST went to Victoria from Tasmania in 1851:
https://stors.tas.gov.au/POL220-1-1 (page 342)
Charles TRINDER's Victorian record is here:
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/justice-crime-and-law/register-male-and-female-prisoners-1855-1947
Debra :)
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Hi,
Searching Trove there seems to be a lot of mentions of the 96th regt. going to Australia, starting in 1839. They seem to go on quite a few different ships, the first one I can see arriving in Sydney is the Barossa in Dec 1839.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/?q=
I've found this article that mentions the British Sovereign with some of the 96th aboard arriving at Hobart in March 1841.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kvf/
Maybe he got the date of his arrival wrong, he was giving the details over 20 years later.
Regards,
Daisy
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I did find this if it is any help
Convict ships bringing detachments of the 96th regiment to New South Wales included the Barossa, Nautilus, Augusta Jessie, Woodbridge, Maitland, Pekoe, Eden and Woodbridge.
http://www.jenwilletts.com/convict_ship_barossa_1839.htm
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Once again thanks to all,
Daisypetal--yep he could have got the date wrong, but also the ship & the arrival port ?
I also noted the 96th was largely shipped out of Sydney to NZ to take part in Maori war or uprising I think in 1844--the same year as he was supposedly discharged at age 22. Not sure what the Army indenture period was back then but this seems a bit young ?
Willsy--I would have thought the 96th (which was a convict guarding regiment) would have travelled on Convict ships to the colony?
However I did note his eldest son William was given the 2nd name as Inkermann--clearly a reference to the battle of Inkermann- Crimean war the previous months of his birth. So he was clearly interested in Army matters ?
Galium/Dundee--your a couple of legends !!----Charles West certainly fits the personality profile. Although I note he had a faint CW & Anchor tattoo on the back of his left hand!---No mention of that in the prison description of 1864 at Melbourne Gaol. --being faint it could have been missed tho & fits with the "shipwright" claim.
I note there is no death of a Charles West in Vict or NSW that matches his age or parenting...
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Galium & Dundee---looking at this again, you two are true Legends !!! I am sure you have nailed him.
In Victoria Charles Trinder was known to the Police as a thief, liar & of bad character;an unreliable informant.
I'm a believer in that nobody suddenly becomes bad overnight so he must have had some "history".
I note his 2nd eldest daughter was named Rachel--Trinder of course.--like West's mother.
His youngest son was named James Freeland Trinder---James like West's Father & brother; Freeland the native place of Charles West. (courtesy of Dundee's link)
I have also noted that soldiers of the 96th regiment in 1844 were stationed at Darlington Probation Station on the Maria Islands --Charles 1st internment location in VDL.
As most of his supplied documentation is fraudulent including the last 6 kids birth certificates, I've only got reasonable circumstantial evidence to go on... but its gotta be him !!!
He's taken on the Alias of his mothers maiden name of Trinder, to avoid something he did between 1851 & 1853.--you will note an unanswered handwritten note/ question in his 1864 Melbourne prison record from one assumes a supervisor--requesting "his Proper Name"--an indication I wasn't the only one finding his information to hard to believe.
Thank you so much--Wow !!!--I reckon even his wife & family never knew !
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Hi,
Have you seen this page which shows that the 96th Regt. were told that they were going to Australia in 1839 and the "British Sovereign" arrived on 18th Nov 1840 with Cptn. Jones 30 other ranks of the 96th Regiment.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/shipsthe96th.htm
It's possible that he wasn't lying about serving with 96th Regt. maybe he was discharged in 1844 due to injury or sickness.
I think the WEST/TRINDER surname change sounds really plausible but why would he make up serving in the Army?
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
It was reported in Charles’s prison record that he arrived in Sydney per the vessel the “British Sovereign” at age 17 in 1839 from Deptford, England; as part of the 96th Regiment. The “British Sovereign” never arrived in Sydney in 1839, but did so in 1838 & 1840 only as a passenger ship. As you have previously said "he might have got the year wrong" but then as a Soldier he also got the port wrong Sydney or VDL (hardly a unintentional mistake).
Unless he did come out as a 17 year old soldier on a passenger ship ? If he was an ranking officer with a family possibly--but a 17 year old private ?
If he was discharged he still had to get to Melbourne--I did even consider him a "Jumper of Ships"
As I said he seemed to be the master of Mudding the waters...
I assume now that Charles West has done something to warrant avoiding detection, hence adopting the story from his life experiences--I reckon he met some soldiers of the 96th on Maria Islands who did come out on the "British Sovereign" & adopted their story but by saying "he was from Sydney" how were they to check that story from Melbourne?
When all the odd things are listed you have to come to the conclusion of his comfort in hiding the truth..
For eg his registering the births of his last 6 children, with Mary Halls from Essex as the mother---some were obviously of "Black" Parentage (photo evidence)---Mary had also signed some of the birth certificates with an X even tho she could W&R ? -- I was puzzled at why he would do that, but then found he had aspirations for obtaining a Liq lic.---then it made sense, he would never of got that whilst he had a brood of Black kids running around !
His 2nd prison stint for perjury is pretty damming --to Blackmail a family by telling lies about their son--which could have seen him hanged for a heinous crime. He clearly had very few "scruples" .
The police report description of him is also damming !---Giving an indication of being a habitual petty crook.
The shallow end of my ancestral linage :)
I don't mind either way as he would be my 4th Convict & 2nd Soldier -ancestral Aussie Grand Father--the more likely truth is my goal.
What would you bet, Charles West or part of the 96th ?
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Hi,
I think it's quite possible that Charles TRINDER is the Charles WEST born to James WEST and Rachel TRINDER, but I also think he could have served in the 96th Regt. but as TRINDER or WEST?
It's confusing that the link I gave you showed that the "British Sovereign" arrived in Nov 1840, I can't find their source. I have found other info showing that the "British Sovereign" left in October 1840 and arrived in March 1841. She was a convict ship, with some of the 96th Regt aboard, this link gives lots of information including "composed the military guard their wives and children and the crew having embarked at Deptford on the 30 October." Deptford is the place that Charles said he sailed from.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4106480
The British Sovereign's master was Jn COW,
http://www.founders-storylines.com/mugsheets/voyages/view/BV0597
It went to Madras and Calcutta in 1841,
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8751531?searchTerm=%22british%20sovereign%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-decade=184|||l-year=1841
and possibly to pick up some British convicts,
http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/india.html
Then it went to Hobart,
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/232479762?searchTerm=%22british%20sovereign%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-decade=184|||l-year=1841
Then on to Sydney,
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8752280?searchTerm=%22british%20sovereign%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-decade=184|||l-year=1841|||l-month=12
I don't know if they would keep soldiers on board for these voyages? It seems unlikely but who would be guarding the prisoners coming back from India?
There is also some info to be found that the Headquarters of the 96th Regiment were in Windsor and Parramatta maybe he was stationed there.
Of course you could be right and he is the Charles WEST that arrived in 1851 and that he "stole" someone else's story.
Finding records of the 96th regiment's soldiers might help, but I'm not sure if these exist and I've run out of time now to look today :)
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I did note his death notice in the paper in 1898 said he was a "Colonist for 59 years"--which means his family thought he arrived in 1839. The same year he advised on his prison record in 1864.
If he was Charles West it seems he never told his family either & his deception became the truth that he took it to the grave..
Thats the trouble with old Charles he told so many lies....that just seem unlikely.
Even his youngest son James Freeland Trinder birth 1880---Mary was 47 by then, a lady who had apparently already had 13 children some of which were clearly had indigenous parentage , living in a bush hut, a grandmother to at least 5 children & who had forgotten her age (as she was getting younger on the birth certificates) ---is it possible she had James ?--"yes"
But is it more likely he was their grand child to their well into her 20's unmarried daughter Mary , (Her sister Elizabeth also had a illegitimate child) & she & Charles saved the day by claiming the child like they had done on now possibly 6 other occasions ?
Following this family is like tracking Spaghetti---:) With Charles at its core !
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John, I would ask that you refrain from using the term you repeatedly use for indigenous Australians, in your posts. It is a racist term and is offensive to both Aboriginal members of Australia, as well as those of non-racist beliefs.
RC does have members who are of Aboriginal descent.
Correct terms you can use are indigenous Australian/s, Aboriginal and aborigine.
The use of current racist terms being used on these forums has been discussed on previous occasions and for many it is agreed that what was once historically ok, does not mean that it is ok, today.
I did try to let it pass, but you just keep repeating it and even highlighting it with quotation marks.
Jamjar
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I apologies Jamjar, no racist intent...
From those children is where my own indigenous heritage comes from. Something I am very proud of..
Hence my interest in this family particularly.
It was the language of the period & I will edit where the system allows.
Thanks again for your help in this ...
Best Regards
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Pleased to hear that you are proud of your indigenous heritage John.
Yes, it was the language of the period and sad to say that it still exists in Australia, today.
Unfortunately, you are unable to edit posts that were made more than 24 hours past. However, the last post should be editable.
Jamjar
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Just to finish this on a positive note---after further research.
I have found out that not only did Charles Trinder name his youngest son James Freeland -- a clear reference to Charles West's past. His father James & Charles from Freeland, Oxfordshire.
His daughter Mercy Prentice (Wynd) apparently had used the alias "Mary West"... (see her children's Birth Certificates).
I think despite the paperwork you have unraveled a 164 year old family secret :)
I can't thank you clever contributors enough--if there's such a thing as a "Virtual Beer"--its my shout !
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I think your Charles Trinder/West would have been quite a character.
It’s such a shame we can’t travel back in time to meet our ancestors. :D
Jamjar
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Pleased to accept a virtual beer, John. It's always nice to have it confirmed that I was right ;D , thanks for letting us know.