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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dunbartonshire => Topic started by: Olicana on Tuesday 10 October 17 15:05 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find the husband of Catherine Stirling/Sterling who was born in Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire in 1840 to parents William and Margaret.
She married a Mr Sutherland around 1862, but I don't know his first name or anything else about him, so any information would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
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Hello Olicana
The only marriage I can see for Catherine Stirling in Kirkintilloch in 1862 is to a James Ferguson. Was her family still in Kirkintilloch at that time? isk
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Thank you for your reply isk. I'm not really sure. I know her parents and some siblings died there, but some of her other siblings and Catherine herself died in America. I assumed she married before emigrating, but perhaps not.
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She was showing as still married when she died in 1898. Hopefully the 1880 US Census would help to confirm husband's name? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WFS-Q32
Monica :)
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One possible 1880 US census entry here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MN88-BKY
Monica
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From the 1880 census, the daughter Catherine shows as born in England (maybe marriage took place there?).
There is this possible marriage for daughter Catherine in 1892 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24H5-666 As you can see from this index, this Catherine showing as born in the Liverpool area, England.
Monica
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Thank you for your help Monica.
Is it possible to find a birth/baptism in Scotland for Adam Sutherland about 1833/34?
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I hold a marrige cert for a couple who were both named Stirling and married in Kirkintilloch in 1861.
Neither had parents named William and Margaret.
( Their son married my relative)
However, the other marriage on the same cert also involved a girl named Agnes Stirling who married John Jack on the same day.
Agnes was the daughter of William Stirling and Margaret Gartshore
All four people who married on this day ( 3 named Stirling and one named Jack) lived at Waterside, Kirkintilloch
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Thank you for that information Anne. Unfortunately, Catherine's parents were William Stirling and Margaret Figgins, not Gartshore, so not directly related.
I can't find a Stirling-Sutherland marriage, so am wondering whether the Stirling-Ferguson marriage found by isk could be Catherine's first marriage, and Adam Sutherland was her second husband. If so, she would have married Adam Sutherland under the name of Catherine Ferguson. In that case, both the Sutherland marriage and James Ferguson's death probably occurred some time between 1862 and 1866.
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Olicana,
I can see the family in Kirkintilloch from 1851 through to 1871.
I can also see a death cert, held on an ancestry tree for father, William who died in 1865
There is no female child on any census?
1851:
Cowgate:
William Stirling 32
Margrate Stirling 35
James Stirling 9
Thomson Stirling 7
Robert Stirling 4 Mo
1861:
Coxdale ( same place as 1865 Death)
William Stirling 42
Margret Stirling 40
James Stirling 19
Thomas Stirling 17
Charels Stirling 7
John Stirling 2
Where does your info on daughter Catherine come from?
I cannot positively identify this couple at 1841 but there is no obvious infant child named Catherine Stirling or Figgins on any 1841 return in Kirkintilloch.
58yr old Margaret Stirling, other name Figgins, died in Govan, Lanarkshire in 1875.
Who was the informant to her death?
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Anne,
The info on Catherine is from a descendant of hers that lives in America and asked for my help, so perhaps she has erroneous information. She seems to have the same family as in the censuses with John, Charles and James all dying in Salt Lake City, USA - mother on death registration listed as Margaret Feggins/Figgins. She has Margaret born 1814 in Lightburn, Lanarkshire, died 1872, and William born 3 January 1819 in Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire, died 23 May 1865 in Kirkintilloch, so ages don't quite match censuses.
I suppose it is possible that Catherine was staying with other relatives on the night of the census...
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Adding this -
1841 Census transcription(FreeCEN)
Union Street , Kirkintilloch , Dunbartonshire.
William Stirling 20 cotton hand loom weaver born Dumbartonshire
Margaret Stirling 25 b. outside Census County
Catherine Stirling 7m b. Dumbartonshire
Did William Stirling and Margaret Figgins have a son Archibald in 1855 Kirkintilloch , if so that should name previous children and note if they are still living.
There is a death for an Archibald Stirling , age 0 , mother's maiden surname Figgins , 1856 Kirkintilloch.
Death for a Robert Stirling , age 6 , mmn Figgins , 1856 Kirkintilloch.
ev
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Thank you ev. Yes, they had a son Archibald, born 4 June 1855, Kirkintilloch, died 7 January 1856
Kirkintilloch. They also had a son Robert that died 11 September 1856 Kirkintilloch (but his birth was given as 1851, which would make him 5 when he died).
This is the information I have been given on William and Margaret's children, although it may not be accurate; it seems unlikely that they would name their son Charles when Charles F was still alive:
Catherine Stirling (1840–1898)
James Stirling (1841–1921)
Thomas Stirling (1844–?)
Robert Stirling (1851–1856)
Charles F. Stirling (1851–1912)
Charles Stirling (1853–1854)
Archibald Stirling (1855–1856)
Margaret Stirling (1857–1859)
John Stirling (1859–1928)
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.... If so, she would have married Adam Sutherland under the name of Catherine Ferguson. In that case, both the Sutherland marriage and James Ferguson's death probably occurred some time between 1862 and 1866.
If Catherine had married in Scotland, her marriage registration would have been under her maiden name not a married surname.
Why the window of 1862-66?
It might be an idea for your friend to view Archibald's death in 1855. This would confirm how many children William and Margaret had had by 1855 - boys/girls, alive/deceased.
There is the big possibility that Catherine died between the 1841 census where she shows per Ev's posting and the next census of 1851 where there is no record of her from then on.
Why does your friend think that the 1898 death in the US is hers?
On the facts here, we seem to go from an 1841 census entry to her death in 1898. We do have the 1880 US census entry. The likely birth for the daughter from that entry, Catherine born in England c. 1867 does show on www.gro.gov.uk I think. This entry shows in West Derby which fits with the possible marriage where that Catherine showed as born in the Liverpool entry. From the GRO, the mother's maiden name is given as Sutherland (without ordering cert, we can't tell if this was an error or correct).
I do not see so far a confirmation that this Catherine Snr had a maiden name of Stirling as is connected to the Kirkintiloch Stirling family of William and Margaret :-\
Monica
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If Catherine had married in Scotland, her marriage registration would have been under her maiden name not a married surname.
Thank you Monica, I hadn't realised that. It seems Catherine and Adam had two other children, both born in Sunderland: Barbara Fraser Sutherland, born 1861 and Thomas, born 1863, so a previous marriage now appears very unlikely.
From the GRO, the mother's maiden name is given as Sutherland (without ordering cert, we can't tell if this was an error or correct).
The mmn showing as Sutherland is an error. I searched the GRO for all Sutherland births over 20 years including phonetic variations and for every birth, the mmn shown was identical to the child's surname - a little too much of a coincidence!
It might be an idea for your friend to view Archibald's death in 1855. This would confirm how many children William and Margaret had had by 1855 - boys/girls, alive/deceased.
Good idea; I hadn't realised Scottish death certificates had so much information on them.
There is the big possibility that Catherine died between the 1841 census where she shows per Ev's posting and the next census of 1851 where there is no record of her from then on.
I would be inclined to agree except the lady that asked for my help says she is her great great granddaughter :-\
She also says the 1892 marriage you found for daughter Catherine is correct. Thank you :)
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Thank you Monica, I hadn't realised that. It seems Catherine and Adam had two other children, both born in Sunderland: Barbara Fraser Sutherland, born 1861 and Thomas, born 1863, so a previous marriage now appears very unlikely.
Could this be the family in 1881 ?
LDS 1881 Census transcription -
Barony , Lanark.
Adam Sutherland 59 super of Blantyre accident fund born Loth Sutherland
Catherine Sutherland 48 wife b. Edinburgh
Helen J Sutherland 20 daur insurance clerk b, Kilwinning Ayr
Barbara F Sutherland 19 daur b. England
Thomas W Sutherland 18 son stationer appt b. England
Catherine F A Sutherland 11 daur b. Irving Ayr
Henrietta Sutherland 9 daur b. Irving Ayr
ev
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Interestingly the birth for Helen J Sutherland in Kilwinning on familysearch gives mother's name as Catherine Sutherland.
The birth for Catherine Susan Alexandrina Sutherland in Irvine 20 March 1870 also has mother named as Catherine Sutherland.
Also note that there is a marriage 7 Sep 1859 Leith North between Adam Sutherland and C Sutherland.
William
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Thank you ev. According to the GRO, there was only one Barbara and one Thomas with surname Sutherland born at the right time in England. My friend's family was already living in US by 1880 (as found by Monica on the US census), so it appears Barbara and Thomas belong to the family in Scotland, not hers. It did seem rather odd that these children were born in Sunderland and a little unusual that the second daughter was named after her mother, rather than the first born...
Thank you for that information William; you seem to have confirmed matters :)
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Catherine Sutherland who married Adam Sutherland bears all the hallmarks of :
Catherine Cullen Sutherland b 19 Jun 1832 in Edinburgh
Parents: Donald and Helen Sutherland
Catherine Stirling in OP was about 7-8yrs younger than this woman
Various Newspapers
Adam Sutherland was a teacher born in Loth, Sutherland and lived in Leith at 1851.
He became teacher at Irvine Academy
He was also a director of the of a Building Society in Irvine from which he resigned in 1877
3 yrs old daughter, died on 6 May 1867 ( un named)
Adam Sutherland died on 6 Mar 1916 at 16 Craigmore Terr, Glasgow
He was the Superintendant of Blantyre and Udston Accident Fund
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Thank you Anne. That proves the family in Scotland is definitely a different family :)
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The 1871 census entry for the Sutherland family being discussed. Daughter Barbara is down as Bruce rather Fraser for her middle name:
Adam Sutherland 43 Teacher Of English b. Seth Sutherland
Catherine Sutherland 38 b. Wenlosen (?), Edinburghshire
Ellen F Sutherland 19 b. Kilwinning, Ayrshire
Barbara Bruce Sutherland 9 b. England
Thomas Sutherland 8 b. England
Catherine L A Sutherland 1 b. Irvine
Robert Simpson 11 boarder
Margaret Thomson 53 nurse servant
Jane Laid 19 servant
Address: Bank Street, Ayrshire
Monica
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One possible 1880 US census entry here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MN88-BKY
Monica
So, we are back to this entry and a death in 1898 :-\
Has the person you are helping considered getting the 1867 West Derby birth cert to try and confirm further details on the parents of that child? What about full details on that 1898 death?
Monica
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Just found a likely 1870 US census entry for the family we have in 1880. Adam Sutherland on this shows as born in England rather than Scotland https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M8XT-GGY
Family must have moved to the US between 1867-70 from what we now have.
Monica
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There is an entry in 1861 for an Adam Sutherland, blacksmith, in Dudley, Staffordshire England:
Adam Sutherland 29 blacksmith b. Scotland
Margaret Sutherland 40 b. Scotland
Joseph Sutherland 8 b. Scotland
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M767-HLS
Possible birth details for Joseph? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTRX-35T
Someone has submitted this pedigree file to FS https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3CDK-2WP Not much detail there that helps further for now.
Monica
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It's definitely the same family Monica.
New York City at 1870 and Hudson, New Jersey 1880
One child only on each return .
Oilcana is researching on behalf of another person.
Who is this person descended from?
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Note that the Adam Sutherland showing in Dudley in 1861 is not present on the 1871 census although Margaret showing as a married lodging house keeper.
(Also draw attention to the thread stating that a new gro pilot has started today - £6 for a PDFnon certified birth cert.).
William
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::) Maybe there was no marriage between Catherine (maiden name to be confirmed...) and Adam Sutherland, blacksmith?
All guesswork. If we have the right entry for 1861 for Adam, married to a Margaret Siclair, perhaps Adam and Catherine met, had Catherine b. 1867 and left for the US by 1870 census?
There is this likely entry in 1871 for Margaret and son Joseph https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDDZ-62M
Some possible census entries for Joseph:
1881 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27F-QD3P
1891 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WSRT-1W2
1901 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS7N-WT9
The marriage of this Joseph to Jemima Slater in 1867/Dudley might have more details re his father perhaps.
Monica
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Who is this person descended from?
Anne, Olicana mentioned earlier that she was a gg granddaughter of Catherine (not sure whether Snr or her daughter).
Monica
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Dont think this has been mentioned- they are on the 1895 New Jersey census in North Bergen township
Adam Sutherland
Catherine Sutherland
Wong I Gon
Catherine Gon
William Gon
Christina Gon
1900 census has Cathereine jnr as Catherine Gencen - immigration year given as 1872.
William
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Wonder if Adam is still around by 1900, William? I couldn't easily see him.
These may be Adam's roots? From 1851 Scotland:
Joseph Sutherland 49 shoemaker b. Clyne? Sutherland
Mary Sutherland 44 b. Loth, Sutherland
Adam Sutherland 20 blacksmith b. Latheron, Caithness
Address: Bagholes, Sutherland
Monica
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Adam Sutherland in Dudley at 1861 certainly seems to be much younger than his wife and vanishes after 1861
This suggests that "if" he is the same Adam, he and Catherine were probably never married.
The daughter ? Possibly was not born as Sutherland.
AND... it also seems that the "wrong" Adam Sutherland who married Catherine Sutherland will probably be connected to this one.
Same name and and both connected to Loth
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Still no sign of the surname Stirling for the Catherine born c. 1840, with Adam in the US, mother of Catherine Jnr. We still only have an approx birth year, Scottish birth and possible parents showing as a William and Margaret from her death cert (with no additional surnames indexed there that help).
She could be anybody really...unless we get confirmation of her maiden name. Olicana, how did the person you are helping connect Catherine to the Stirling family?
The only surname we have for her was a maiden name of Sutherland from that 1867 birth in Liverpool for Catherine Jnr :-\
Adam seems to be shaping up though ::)
Monica
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Wow! So much information! Thank you all very much.
how did the person you are helping connect Catherine to the Stirling family?
As far as I know, it was just generally known in the family that her name was Catherine Stirling before marriage, but I will email her to ask. Ironically, it was Mr Sutherland that little was known about! :D
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How do you know that the woman named Catherine Sutherland who died in NY 1898 is the correct person?
This family were in NJ at 1895.
Adam appears on NY directories up until 1891 but, the address showing on them is still the NJ address
I am almost certain that the child named Catherine Stirling who appears to have been born to the couple in Kirkintilloch, died in infancy.
She does not appear on any census other than 1841.
Stirling is/was a very common name in Scotland
My own my own family tree for example....
I have at multiple unconnected families called Stirling from the early to mid 1800's
They originate in Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Ayrshire, Aberdeenshire and Dunbartonshire yet they have no connection to each other
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Hi Anne. I will ask further, but it is my understanding that her descendants are confident that the lady who died in NY is their ancestor. Perhaps they have confused one Catherine Stirling with another, as it is quite a common name, and they may be looking at the wrong Stirling family in Dunbartonshire.
Would viewing Archibald's death confirm how many children William and Margaret had (boys/girls, alive/deceased), as suggested earlier? I have checked the National Records Office of Scotland website, and I can't see anything about siblings' information being recorded in the registers but, if so, it would be the best method of confirming whether Catherine died in infancy.
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I don't think the 1855 death cert will mention siblings.
I hold a few 1855 death certs for children/ unmarried individuals but, siblings are not mentioned on any.
If the deceased was married/widowed then the 1855 death cert would list all children born to the marriage, both living and deceased
Edit
I also hold a few 1855 birth certs.
They give a lot of info on the parents but, none that I have mention other children born to the same couple.
I have looked for any sign of Adam's and or Catherine's emigration to the US and can find none.
He was in England at 1861 and found in the US at 1870. 9yr window for emigration
However, at 1870 Catherine and Catherine Jnr are both in the household and info suggests that their window for emigration was 3yrs. 1867-1870.
It may be unlikely but, there is still the possibility that Adam is not the child's biological father.
They could have become a couple in the US shortly before the 1870 census
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Thank you Anne, I too have been scouring passenger lists from Liverpool to NY between 1867 and 1870 without success and have been unable to find any naturalisation records for the family either.
I think Catherine and Adam were together before going to America, as the baby was registered under his surname in 1867 in England.
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Has anyone obtained the 1867 birth cert in West Derby to confirm that this child was the daughter of Adam and Catherine?
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Has anyone obtained the 1867 birth cert in West Derby to confirm that this child was the daughter of Adam and Catherine?
No, but the GRO have been informed of the identical surname/mmn problem, so hopefully once they have sorted that out we will know the mother's mmn.
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Archibald Stirling's 1855 birth reg doesn't help further unfortunately. Archibald shows as their 12th child. William and Margaret had 4 boys living only and 3 boys and 4 girls deceased by 1855 :-\
See clip below from the 1855 birth reg:
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Monica,
The 1855 death for Archibald shows that the parents had no living daughters.
4 boys living
3 boys deceased
4 girls deceased.
Assuming that I am not misreading your post, they could not possibly be the parents of Catherine Sutherland
The clip also states that Margaret Figgins was born and married in Kirkintilloch.
The 1841 census states she was born outside the census county.
From memory, all other census state Kirkintilloch.
At 1841 the only other Figgins family in Kirky was a man named Charles with wife named Janet.
Both born Ireland but, all children on return were born in census county
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Thank you for finding that entry Monica. It does help! If they only had 4 boys living, no girls, then Catherine must have already died in infancy - so she is the "wrong" Catherine Stirling!
How dreadfully sad :(
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The link posted by MonicaL to Catherine's 1898 death certificate states her parents as father William and mother Margaret but it doesn't show surnames for either of them.
Does the person you are helping have a more detailed copy of death certificate which states her parents surnames as well or, as on the death certificate details on familysearch, does it just give her parents as plain William and Margaret?
Annette
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Hi Annette, I will ask her but I think her information is from FamilySearch.
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does it just give her parents as plain William and Margaret?
It just gives parents as William and Margaret, both born Scotland. The death certificates of brothers James, Charles F. and John state parents as William Stirling and Margaret Figgins from Scotland.
It seems I misunderstood the person we are trying to help - she is William and Margaret's great great granddaughter, not Catherine's. She is descended from the aforementioned James Stirling. Apparently most of the family genealogy was done when a lot of the family was still alive by her aunt, Margaret and William's granddaughter, who died in 1991. This aunt had attended the funerals of James, Charles and John, but was not born when the mysterious Catherine died, although she did have a record of her 1898 death apparently; hence the reason for trying to find out more about Mr Sutherland. It would appear that she does have the right Stirling family in Kirkintilloch, but the wrong Catherine.
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It is good to have this info now...did think we were likely chasing a ghost, with the search for Catherine, daughter to William and Margaret from Kirkintilloch.
Now we are left wondering who this Catherine actually was ::)
Monica
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Although it turned out to be something of a wild goose chase, the lady that requested my help was delighted with the findings because it has helped her correct errors in her family tree, and has asked me to thank you all. Not only can she remove Catherine's marriage to Mr Sutherland, but she now knows that Catherine died before the 1850 census and that there are five missing siblings born before Archibald that she didn't know about :)
You have all been so helpful and made such a great research team, I hope you will forgive me for being cheeky enough to ask if you might be able to help me find the birth of my 4xgreat grandfather (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=763516.msg6151559#msg6151559)? I am really stuck! :'(
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Olicana, not really seeing much that help you further with the Elen line :-\ Just adding this link to the other post as it had more detail in case others can help further now (best on that thread to keep it all together)
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=749988.0
Monica :)
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Thank you Monica :)