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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Forfarian on Thursday 12 October 17 15:57 BST (UK)
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I am under the impression that, before ordering a certificate, one is allowed to ask a local Registrar a question to which the answer is either yes or no. I have in fact done this several times, contacting several different Registrars, and have always received a reply saying either yes or no.
The other day I sent a question to a different Registrar asking if the groom's father's name is on the certificate, and I have now received a reply saying that they cannot tell me the answer unless the certificate is ordered.
I do not want to shell out £9.25 if the certificate isn't going to tell me the name of the groom's father, which is the only piece of useful information on it that I don't already know. (He was born illegitimate in Scotland.)
Is this 'ask-a-question' a right, or a privilege at the discretion of the Registrar, and if it is a right can anyone point me to chapter and verse so that I can quote them out to this Registrar?
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I assume that if the child was illegitimate it is possible the father name won't be on a cert, unless someone knows better
Louisa Maud
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...though many illegitimate children made up a father for the marriage certificate...
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and some of them did actually give their father's name albeit sometimes the official assumed they both had the same surname.
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Surely the registrar can give you any information to help you buy the correct certificate.
You know this is the correct certificate but are trying to avoid buying it :), not good for business
Mike
Edit: that may sound a bit blunt, it was not meant that way
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I am under the impression that, before ordering a certificate, one is allowed to ask a local Registrar a question to which the answer is either yes or no. I have in fact done this several times, contacting several different Registrars, and have always received a reply saying either yes or no.
The other day I sent a question to a different Registrar asking if the groom's father's name is on the certificate, and I have now received a reply saying that they cannot tell me the answer unless the certificate is ordered.
I do not want to shell out £9.25 if the certificate isn't going to tell me the name of the groom's father, which is the only piece of useful information on it that I don't already know. (He was born illegitimate in Scotland.)
Is this 'ask-a-question' a right, or a privilege at the discretion of the Registrar, and if it is a right can anyone point me to chapter and verse so that I can quote them out to this Registrar?
The best way to do this is to order a certificate where the groom is X the bride is Y and the groom's father is Z.
The registrar is then bound by law to ensure he/she only supplies the certificate if the details match.
Consumer Rights Act 2015
"11 Goods to be as described
(1) Every contract to supply goods by description is to be treated as including a
term that the goods will match the description."
The downside of ordering like this is if the details do not match exactly as stated you are likely to have the order rejected.
Cheers
Guy
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Hmmm. Yes, I could order a certificate quoting the groom's and bride's names, but stating that the groom's father's name is required information and if it doesn't contain that it is not the certificate I want.
Or I could just forget about it until the GRO comes up with some more useful details in its indexes, as it has done with births before 1911.
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I assume that if the child was illegitimate it is possible the father name won't be on a cert, unless someone knows better
Which is exactly why I want to know if the information is on the certificate before I order it. If it isn't, then the certificate is no use to me.
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You know this is the correct certificate but are trying to avoid buying it :), not good for business
Edit: that may sound a bit blunt, it was not meant that way
:) No, indeed not. If it were a Scottish one I wouldn't hesitate, as they only cost £1.50 and you get the couple's mothers' full maiden names too, but £9.25 without knowing if it even has the information I want is a gamble too far.
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I'm with Mazi on this one.
You know it is the correct cert. So surely you have to buy it to find out what info it has on it?
If it has a fathers name then you have gained that info. If it doesn't, then you have found out that the person was illegitimate.
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I'm with Mazi on this one.
You know it is the correct cert. So surely you have to buy it to find out what info it has on it?
If it has a fathers name then you have gained that info. If it doesn't, then you have found out that the person was illegitimate.
Ah, but I already know he was illegitimate. I don't need his marriage certificate to tell me that, or to tell me his father's surname, because he was always known by that surname. What I don't know is his father's given name and occupation. So if it doesn't have his father's name I would have spent £9.25 for nothing at all.
My question to this forum was, "Is this 'ask-a-question' a right, or a privilege at the discretion of the Registrar, and if it is a right can anyone point me to chapter and verse so that I can quote them out to this Registrar?"
No-one has actually answered that, so I have to assume that it depends on the whim of the Registrar.
One Registrar I asked came back with a very cautiously worded reply that said, "The information on the certificate does not match the information you have supplied", which was enough to tell me that it would be worth buying the certificate (and it was - the parents were in hiding under an assumed name!). Another confirmed that the bride's father's name matched what I had asked if it was, so I didn't need that one.
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I'm with Mazi on this one.
You know it is the correct cert. So surely you have to buy it to find out what info it has on it?
If it has a fathers name then you have gained that info. If it doesn't, then you have found out that the person was illegitimate.
Ah, but I already know he was illegitimate. I don't need his marriage certificate to tell me that, or to tell me his father's surname, because he was always known by that surname. What I don't know is his father's given name and occupation. So if it doesn't have his father's name I would have spent £9.25 for nothing at all.
My question to this forum was, "Is this 'ask-a-question' a right, or a privilege at the discretion of the Registrar, and if it is a right can anyone point me to chapter and verse so that I can quote them out to this Registrar?"
No-one has actually answered that, so I have to assume that it depends on the whim of the Registrar.
One Registrar I asked came back with a very cautiously worded reply that said, "The information on the certificate does not match the information you have supplied", which was enough to tell me that it would be worth buying the certificate (and it was - the parents were in hiding under an assumed name!). Another confirmed that the bride's father's name matched what I had asked if it was, so I didn't need that one.
You can ask a Registrar anything you like but he/she is under no obligation to answer.
Many Registrar's are helpful some are extremely helpful and some are not at all helpful, just like the rest of society.
Much depends on the way you approach them and your attitude with them.
Cheers
Guy
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You can ask a Registrar anything you like but he/she is under no obligation to answer.
Thank you.
Much depends on the way you approach them and your attitude with them.
Indeed. Which is why I always try to be polite when contacting them.
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I am a bit puzzled by you wanting to ask the registrar to give details of the grooms father in law's name. Even if the registrar told you the name you may be no further forward as the name on the certificate could be wrong. To give you an example on the marriage certificate of one of my ancestors "James Smith" (fictional name) his father is also down as James Smith. Fortunately I had enough other information to know the father was Thomas Smith and what was written on the marriage certificate was a mistake, but then there were so many mistakes on that particular certificate that one more wasn't going to unduly worry me.
There again on the rare occasion when I have included qualifying information when requesting a certificate it has back fired on me. when I requested a death certificate I put the age as it appeared in the burial register which unfortunately was several years different to what was on the certificate so my initial request was turned down. (When I reapplied leaving the age off it turned out it was the certificate I wanted and there was a difference in the ages in the burial register and the death certificate)
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I am a bit puzzled by you wanting to ask the registrar to give details of the grooms father in law's name. Even if the registrar told you the name you may be no further forward as the name on the certificate could be wrong.
Oh yes, I realise that.
But that applies to just about every certificate. The information is only as good as the person who supplies it, and there can even be errors on birth certificates when a mother registers the birth. Something to go on would be better than nothing, and the groom could have got it right.
I don't expect the Registrar to tell me the actual name. I only asked him to tell me if there is a groom's father's name on the certificate, and if he had told me that there is I would have bought a copy in the orthodox way. If there isn't, or if he doesn't tell me there is, I won't buy it.
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Hi,
Another possibility is to ask for a lookup of a baptism entry to see if a father's name is listed. If, as you say, he is illegitimate, then I would think the father's name is missing.
Having said that, I have found several bapt. entries, in my tree, which list the son, mother and father's name "or reputed to be the son of.." even to the point where a child was bapt. under the mother's name and the father and mother married a few weeks later.
As for a marriage certificate, I have a g/grandmother who says she was 17, but actually was 15years & 9 mths when she married and stated her father was "Alfred ....." but in reality her father was "Elijah......" and still alive and didn't die till some 16 years later.
The fact she gave birth a few months later didn't come into it, or did it?
An interesting story.
Alan
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I would think that it is not obligatory for a registrar or their staff to supply the information before you order a certificate. Have you tried ordering it with the payment and specifying that you only want it if a fathers name is given.
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Producing certificates from old registers is a tiny fraction of the work in a registration office - it isn't something most registrars would have any involvement with at all. In many offices a designated member of the reception staff will deal with these enquiries and as such, as Guy says, much depends on how much time they have and how helpful they want to be.
In the office I worked in the "certificate desk" staff were always happy to be as helpful as possible, and would often go way beyond what was required to try and help people who sometimes made quite vague requests, but there is no rule about having a legal right to be allowed to ask questions.
An added complication is that some old registers may not be held on site, or may even have been passed on to local archives, so retrieving the register to check the entry is most of the work involved.
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Thank you. That seems to be the definitive answer.