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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: eirwen on Friday 13 October 17 17:52 BST (UK)
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Would anyone be so kind and inform me the family of Howell and Margaret Davies. Either Commercial Street Blaenllechau or Brynteg Terrace Ferndale in 1911 census The reason being that my late uncle informed me that my aunt Phoebe Jane Davies married a William Enoch . But according to research Phoebe Jane married a Lewis Enoch and in an obituary Phoebe is down as widow of Lewis Enoch. In both 1891 and 1901 census there is no Phoebe but there is a May. Just dying to establish, where did Phoebe come from, were they just able to change names someway. Any assistance would be great. Regards Eirwen
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Sorry, we are not allowed to do look-up requests for 1911 census, or 1939 Register. However, you may find Family Search (free) of help in your quest:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1921547
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Are there birth registrations for both May and Phoebe? When was she/they born?
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According to my records May was born 1894/95. Have never found a birth for a Phoebe Jane Davis. Thought at first they might have been twins But no joy there either. May according to census born Swansea Eirwen Regards
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Hi was the death of Phoebe:-
Phoebe Jane Enoch born 23rd May 1894 death March qtr 1972 Pontypridd aged 77?
Keyboard86
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Hi This Phoebe is mine ,I have the obituary. The problem I have that Phoebe Jane does not appear in any of the census I have looked at for the Davis family . The only daughter of the same age is May. So where did Phoebe Jane come from. Cannot find the birth of a May Dals whose mother was Margaret Williams Completly stumped on this. . Regards Eirwen.
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Davies, Phoebe Jane MMN WILLIAMS Sept 1/4 1894 vol 11a page 835 registration district Swansea
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Hi I have. The marriage birth and death certificates of Pheobe Jane my late Aunt. Was always known as Auntie May and in 1891 and 1901 census down as May. According to family May married Lewis Enoch but again according to family she married William Enoch . I visited them at 3 Hoel Llechau in Wattsown I visited them there known as aunt May and Uncle Enoch. Just trying to establish why census and family say May but all certificates say Pheobe Jane..Expect I will never know.Eirwen
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Hi if Phoebe Jane was born 1894, how do you have her in 1891 census?
Keyboard86
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Phoebe Jane's birthday in one record is 21st May 1894.Perhaps that was why she was called May!
Regards
Roger
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Hi again, is this the family in 1891 census:-
Howell DAVIE 29 b Carmarthenshire
Margaret 23 b Solva, Pembrokeshire
Mary Ann 2 b Abergwynope?
Residing at St Peters Road, Swansea
Census Ref RG12/4471/85/29
When/Where did Howell & Margaret marry?
Keyboard86
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Can't see a marriage for them :-\ but good question if Phoebe wasn't born till 1894 she can't be on the 1891 census as May!
Maybe there was a May who passed away and Phoebe was called May in her memory.
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Phoebe Jane is not in 1891 or 1901 census that is why I requested alookup in 1911 census. But informed not allowed. Howell and Margaret were married in 1887 Neath Register Office, both living in The Huts Abergwynfi. I have come to the conclusion that as the family called her May when the census enumerater called they gave her name was May, unless anyone has any other Ideas. Regards Eirwen
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Is this the marriage registration
Mar 1887 Neath
Beddoe Edward
David Howell
Evans Ann
Morgan Margaret
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Post 7 says that you have May on 1891 and 1901 census, but Phoebe Jane not born til 1894 so she can't be the same person, can she? ???
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To clarify is this the correct 1901 family
Howell Davies 39
Margaret 34
Sarah Edith 9
Ivor 7
May 6
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No problem with revealing 1911 info I can't find May or Phoebe so nothing to reveal :(
To clarify Phoebe married in 1917 is that right?
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Let me have a recap. You are correct if May was in 1891 census she cannot be Pheobe Jane . So where is Pheobe Jane in following census. Pheobe did indeed marriage in 1917 In her obituary 1972 ,which my mother Eirwen attended as sister she was aged 77 yrs old.The family in 1891 with Margaret born Solva is mine. So what happened to May and why is Pheobe Jane not mentioned in any census and May not mentioned in 1911 census. Thanking everyone for all your assistance , Will try and seee if I can locate a death for May after 1911 or a marriage anywhere. Regards Eirwen
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The May identified appears to have mmn Morgan,and the Phoebe Jane mmn Williams.Unless there was a death and remarriage and they are half/step sisters,I don't see how they are the same family - perhaps cousins?
Regards
Roger
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Although the dob is a few years out(perhaps because not immediate family?),do you think it is Phoebe Jane,given as born 1890,who is given as niece to John Jones in Cockett in 1901?
Rergards
Roger
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May I ask where did you find the birth of Pheobe Jane was it from a census are you able to show me the census entry, or where you located the birth entry. At the moment I am at a total loss with this research. Regards Eirwen.
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free index on FamilySearch for the 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXS-VT3
No May or Phoebe Jane in the household.
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best match I can see for Eirwen's birth reg is
Eurwen Davies sept qtr 1904 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 591 mother's maiden name Williams
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Free BMD index for Births, Marriages, Deaths has this birth
September quarter 1894
Swansea registration district
Phoebe Jane Davies
Mothers maiden name is Williams
The marriage 1887 Neath found earlier had Margaret Morgan and Morgan is the mothers maiden name for May so I think there are two different couples here but it is confusing.
Have you got the 1887 marriage certificate that shows Margaret Williams?
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Hi all, Sarah Edith aged 9 in 1901, birth registration?
Keyboard86
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I can trace the couple from the 1887 Neath marriage and they are clearly not involved.
Regards
Roger
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there's a plain Sarah Davies mmn Williams registered Swansea sept qtr 1891.
No Sarah Edith or Edith Sarah that I can see.
:-\
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Hi I have. The marriage birth and death certificates of Pheobe Jane my late Aunt.
Who was Phoebe Jane’s father on her marriage certificate, and her parents on her birth cert. Perhaps we need to track her properly......
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Phoebe Jane is not in 1891 or 1901 census that is why I requested alookup in 1911 census. But informed not allowed. Howell and Margaret were married in 1887 Neath Register Office, both living in The Huts Abergwynfi. I have come to the conclusion that as the family called her May when the census enumerater called they gave her name was May, unless anyone has any other Ideas. Regards Eirwen
Hi so marriage certificate 1887 Neath Register Office where the couple were living in The Huts, Abergwnfi shows as Howell Davies and Margaret Williams or Morgan which, that looks like the 1891 family?
So can you supply as requested the details of the marriage/birth of Phoebe Jane Davies you say you have?
Keyboard86
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My apologies the birth and marriage dates are what my family told me. But in the obituary of Phoebe Jane it said her husband was Lewis Enoch. But to confirm this information will contact Swansea on Monday . But this still does not explain why Pheobe does not appear on any Howell and Margaret Davis census. Eirwen
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OK so would I be correct, that from birth and including marriage/death, you have no certificates at all for Phoebe Jane Davies?
Keyboard86
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So maybe we should work backwards instead of forwards.
The 1917 marriage gives Lewis Enoch - can he be traced back, maybe he had a brother or father William and the names got mixed up.
There is a Lewis born 1887 Merthyr and a death in 1965 Pontypridd age 78 which fits.
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To clear one point,the 1887 marriage is for a Howell David(not Davies).He can be seen in 1891 and subsequently in Neath with his wife Margaret,and including a daughter Blodwen,who has a mmn Morgan according to GRO,further confirming it.
I could be wrong,but my reading of the position is that Eirwen is convinced she has the right family in 1901,but is unclear whether May and Phoebe Jane are the same peraon,as the details she gives about visiting "Auntie May" give rise to the same dilemma given the 1939 register.Lack of clear identification in 1911 doesn't help either.
Regards
Roger
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Lewis Enoch 1887 actually does have a father and younger brother called William.
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OK so would I be correct, that from birth and including marriage/death, you have no certificates at all for Phoebe Jane Davies?
Keyboard86
Working on this, how do we know her parents were Howell/Margaret?
Agree the Howell David who married Margaret Morgan in Neath 1887, as 1901 family have Mary Morgan 68 Mother in Law in household in Neath
Census ref RG13/5052/119/22
Keyboard86
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There's a marriage on FreeBmd for Margaret Williams sept qtr 1887 Neath vol 11a pg 847 where there is only one male on the page, the other couple being David Jones & Ann Gethin.
Howell Davies is in the same quarter but page number has been transcribed as [56]47 - the typed index is not clear.
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I'm guessing Howell and Margaret are the parents because they would be the posters grandparents? Aunt May being a sister to the posters mother.
That's a good find osprey, that marriage fits.
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You are correct . May is my mother Eirwen’s sister. Phoebe Jane also , in the obituary for Phoebe Jane Enoch my late mother Eirwen was down as sister to the desceased .So that confirms that Howell Davies and Margaret Williams are the parents. Hope this clears it up and that I have the correct family, also I visited the Enoch family in Wattstown. Eirwen
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Thanks eirwen. Does the obituary offer any more clues about family members?
I take it no mention of May sister to the deceased.
Any unknown nieces or nephews or in laws mentioned that could relate to May?
Sorry I'm confusing things again :-[ I was thinking May in 1891 census was the right family but it's the 1901 census.
If only we could find her in 1911.
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another post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=780691.new#new
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Hi think Sarah (Edith) aged 19 b Cockett is shown as Niece with a William Henry Lee and wife Phoebe in Barry
Marriage William Henry Lee to Phoebe Jane Williams Sept qtr 1897 Cardiff 11a 538
Phoebe b Solva
Keyboard86
EDIT in 1901 William H and Phoebe J have a widowed Sarah Jane Williams aged 64 b Solva in household
Census ref RG13/4992/140/26
PS why have I looked up William H and Phoebe before??
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In case it helps..... There’s a Phoebe Jame (as transcribed by FindMyPast) Davies, in 1901 in New Rd, Waunarlwydd, Cockett, Swansea. Age given as 11, so a few years out, born Whitland, Carms. Niece to John Jones, widower.
RG13 5068 68 40
Edited to add.... i have found what looks to be the same Phoebe Jane (born Whitland, age 21), on the 1911, now in the Rhondda.
Edited again (sorry, going round in circles with this puzzle).... Apologies, have found the likely birth of this Phoebe Jane, mother Harries, in Narberth (covers Whitland), in March quarter 1890. Enough for me i think. Good luck!
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think I have that family in Pembs
1871 Upper Solva, Whitchurch RG10/5534 folio 43 pg 8
Griffith William head mar 38 ag lab b. Casfwch
Sarah wife 33 b. Hendre
Martha dau 12 b. Laingamma
Ann dau 11 b. Laingamma
Evan son 8 b. Dwrhyd
Mary dau 7 b. Dwrhyd
Thomas son 6 b. Paran
Margaret dau 4 b. Paran
Phebe J da 1 b. Solva
the places of birth seem to be the hamlets rather than the parish, 1861 from Llaingamma RG9/4169 folio 62 pg 8 has Griffith born Castlebythe and Sarah St David's.
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found Mary Ann who was aged 2 in 1891
1901 Hamilton House, Solva RG13/5131 folio 173 pg 6
William Price head mar 40 rural postman & insurance a b. Solva
Ann wife 40 b. Solva
Mary Ann Davies niece 12 b. Swansea
announcement from 12 Oct 1883 of the marriage at the Independent Chapel, Solva of William Price, carrier, and Anne daughter of Griffith Williams, both of Solva
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3060595/3060597/6/
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All the information which you have located with regard to my Davies family is correct. I know Griffith died after 6weeks. (Death certificate) the others were Mary Ann (aunt Nan) Sarah, Ivor, Pheobe Jane, May, and the last was Eirwen(my mother) all except my mother born in Swansea. Eirwen born Blaenllechau. So only one child is missing believe born and died between 1895-1903 have not found this record Plus never found births of Pheobe Jane or May. Again thank you for all your assistance. Eirwen
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??? Sorry, so were you aware of the William Henry Lee marriage to Phoebe Jane Williams and Sarah Davies in 1911 with them?
Keyboard86
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Hi Keyboard Thank you for the information , does it say where Pheobe Jane was born please. Have never been able to locate the birth, Pheobe Jane was always missing on the 1891 & 1901 census which I looked at. Regards Eirwen.
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there is no birth reg for a May Davies mmn Williams in Swansea in the 1890s. There is one in Merthyr Tydfil registration district in june qtr 1898.
There is a registration for Phoebe Jane Davies sept qtr 1894 Swansea vol 11a pg 835 mmn Williams from GRO index.
It helps if you give us all the info you have especially as we're dealing with common surnames. As you knew Margaret's father was Griffith, it would have helped anyone searching to know. It doesn't encourage researching when you've spent time looking up census entries and bmds only to find that family names were already known.
::)
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My apologies I did not intend to have mislead anybody with my research , just trying to find out if what has been found tallies with all I have located. Again my apologies. Eirwen,