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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: lucymags on Wednesday 18 October 17 11:30 BST (UK)

Title: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Wednesday 18 October 17 11:30 BST (UK)
Firstly, Martha Cox, for whom I had noted a record in the 1881 Census as follows: "England and Wales Census, 1881," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X3PQ-LNT : 16 November 2014), Martha Cox in household of William Cox, Islington, Middlesex, England; from "1881 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing p. 64, PRO RG 11/231 / 63, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey; FHL microfilm 1,341,050.
- only FamilySearch tells me that the record is no longer available. Is anyone able to verify the following information, which I noted from that record?
"It lists her 4 children with the surname Collins, ranging in ages from 6 to 14. Her second husband is William Cox, but the children retain the name Collins." The 4 children I have created for her are James Frederick, Frederick Charles (died as an infant 1846 - records found), Ada L, Albert Edward and George H.

From other records I have surmised that she was previously married to Frederick Collings and the family turn up in Clerkenwell in the 1871 Census here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBD2-B9S, with 2 children, James and Ada.

Frederick dies in 1875 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2JK9-Q68, and she marries William Cox in July 1880 in Newington: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ4Y-MR3

The reason I am looking at this family in the first place is because the origins of an Albert Edward Cock-Collins, who turns up in Cape Town at the end of the 19th C, remain mysterious. There are no other recorded instances of this surname, save his descendants. One of the family stories suggested that he had connections to Cornwall, but previous research down this line (everything I could lay my hands on in Cornish records of that period) showed no evidence of this surname. We know that he (and his wife Martha Carter, from Cape Town) returned to London around 1904, where his third son Cecil was born in West Ham.

I happened upon the Cox/Collings connection in my last bout of research a year or two back, but got no further, and would like to revisit and build on this if possible. What do you think of the likelihood of this connection?

I have also made notes (possibly from records sighted on Ancestry or FindMyPast) that there was an A.E.Collins who made a passport application on 24 June 1894, and there's an A.E.Cox who was a passenger on the Mexican on May 23rd 1896 (although no information about the destination).

If anyone can assist with that 1881 Census record, and/or offer any other suggestions or opinions on this matter, I'd appreciate it.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 18 October 17 11:35 BST (UK)
1881 census record lists

William Cox 26
Martha Cox 34
James F Collins 14
Ada L Collins 11
Albert E Collins 9
George H Collins 6

address 137 Copenhagen St Islington

Martha and 3 youngest children born Clerkenwell James born Kingsland Middlesex
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 18 October 17 11:43 BST (UK)
Destination for the Mexican 23 May 1896 was Natal so that's a link to SA and Cape Town if nothing else.

Mr A E Cox age 24 was a clerk.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 18 October 17 11:56 BST (UK)
Do you know Martha's maiden name?  Just to double check her Arthur E was Arthur Edward.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Millmoor on Wednesday 18 October 17 12:02 BST (UK)
Think you an possibly rule this chap out - did a search for Albert E Collings and there seems to be quite a lot for him,all on this country. He is a boarder in Rotherhithe in 1891, married in 1894 and can be located in the 1901 and 1911 censuses. He also appears in the probate calendar.

Also note that Martha Cox is in Norfolk in the 1891 census with her husband and youngest son George whose surname is Collings, suggesting that Collins as written in 1881 was an error.

William
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 18 October 17 12:04 BST (UK)
More background info on AE Cock-Collins (and some guesswork as to his parentage) here:  https://www.geni.com/people/Albert-Cock-Collins-SV-PROG/6000000000836612651
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 18 October 17 13:05 BST (UK)
Have you researched Albert Edward Cock whose birth was registered in Truro in 4Q 1871?

At first pass I can't see any other records for him.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Wednesday 18 October 17 13:09 BST (UK)
Thanks all - that's all useful information.  :)

Milliepede - Great to have the census info and destnation of the ship. If this is the correct Martha, it says her father was William Hallam: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ4Y-MR3 - but I am confused about Arthur E; did you mean to write Albert?

Millmoor - thanks. I wonder why they went to Norfolk? Is there any other useful info about the family? Where in Norfolk? (I can't find anything via FamilySearch on that one either.)

ShaunJ - yes,  thanks - I am trying to build on that Geni record. I can't remember about the Truro Cock - too long ago since I looked at the Cornwall records, although it does sound vaguely familiar. I think I came across a few possibles but nothing to tie them in. (Penzance was mentioned in particular, but I don't think I found anything there at all - although I did come across a few Cocks and Collinses in Cornwall.)

I'll add some annotations but will have to come back to it tomorrow (it's late in Australia!).
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Millmoor on Wednesday 18 October 17 13:18 BST (UK)
1891 Martha Cox is with husband shown as Wm and son shown as Geo H Collings in Wormegay, Norfolk (Downham RD).

William
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Annette7 on Wednesday 18 October 17 14:00 BST (UK)
I agree with Millmoor - Albert Edward Collings, son of Frederick Charles Collings and Martha Hannam (married William James Cox 1880 after death of FCC) who married 1865, is not your man I'm afraid.   (1881 census spelling of Collins is wrong and should read Collings).

Albert Edward Collings, son of Frederick Charles Collings, married Mary Ann Court 24/11/1894 Stepney and they are together on 1901/1911 census so definitely not 'your' man.

Back to the drawing board I'm afraid.

Annette
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Annette7 on Wednesday 18 October 17 16:10 BST (UK)
There is a army service record for an Albert Edward Collins b.1874 Kenwin, Truro, Cornwall per FindMyPast - however, since he was aged 18 years 6 months when he enlisted 28/4/1890 this makes him born late 1871 not 1874!

1. There is no birth entry for anyone with these details, nor a sighting on census in name of Collins.  So, I would concur with ShaunJ in that the birth entry for an Albert Edward Cock Dec.qtr.1871 Truro might well be the person you are looking for.   Again, no trace of this person either with surname Cock on census.    I feel there is some kind of story here!

2. The service record states that Albert Edward Collins served in the Bechuanaland Border Police during the Matabele Campaign from 18/10/1893 to 2/3/1894.   This makes a likely candidate for your man.   His next of kin when he enlisted was given as a sister, Mrs. Kate Cox, 82 St. James Road, Forest Gate, London (regn district for Forest Gate is West Ham) but, alas, there were no Cox's living at that address on the 1891 census. I've tried looking for Kate/Catherine/Katherine Cock/Collins married to a Cox and can't come up with anything likely.

Certainly, my next obvious step would be to get the birth certificate of Albert Edward Cock 1871 Truro to see what information it contains - mmn on GRO index states Woodcott but this doesn't seem to be a common name in Cornwall and wonder if it should read Woolcott.   However, cannot find any Woodcott/Woolcott married to a Cock/Collins either.    As already said, I think there is a story here as most mysterious in that Albert cannot be found as Cock/Collins in 1881 and cannot see a likely sister Kate/Catherine/Katherine either.

Annette
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 18 October 17 22:40 BST (UK)
Just in case there is any Woolcott link there is a James Woolcott born Kenwyn Cornwall 1829.

In 1881 he is in London with wife Mary 60 daughter Cora 26 domestic servant and son Robert 22 carpenter

Interestingly in 1871 the surname is Woolcock as are births for the children
Robert is Rupert in 1871.

 
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Thursday 19 October 17 02:59 BST (UK)
Thanks very much, peeps. That is somewhat disappointing but at least that's one avenue ruled out, if he's definitely with Mary Ann in 1901 and 1911. (I have now found some Electoral Roll entries via Family Search for Albert Edward Collings at Lower Charles St - no longer there, but near Meredith St in Islingon, 19010-12 - renting a single room, no mention of a wife??; but there's also an Alfred Edward Collins also on electoral roll at Florence St, Depford (and another at Newington Causeway). I don't know. I give up there. I suppose the names were fairly common.)

Back to the matter in hand. Yes, there's definitely some kind of story behind this. The details on Albert's 3rd son Cecil are somewhat odd too: https://www.dropbox.com/s/q7rzg92pgyj59sn/Cock-Collins%2C%20Cecil%20-%20birth%20cert.%201904-07-20.pdf?dl=0

The parents were apparently temporarily in London. (I haven't found any passenger records of their transit, and presumably they would have had two other infants with them?!). As you can see, the mother's address is given as 146 Caistor Park Road, and the baby born at 20 Corporation St, about half a mile away. It's all most peculiar. They were back in Cape Town by 1907 at the latest, when the 4th son was born.

Annette - that service record in the Bechuanaland Police does sound promising, seeing that he is named variously as Constable, Sergeant and Police Inspector on various sons' birth certificate. I will digest this information and work out how to go about getting a birth certificate for the Truro Cock. (Is it worth my posting requests for further information in the Cornwall forum, do you think?)

Another interesting thing to note is that Cecil is given the 3rd name Hopecook (which I think is a misspelled version of Hopecock, which I came across somewhere else along the way) - but on all later documentation I have, inlcuding his death certificate, his 3rd name was Christopher, by the age of 23. However, the header information given on this site here: http://www.ancestor.co.za/COCK-COLLINS, which refers to his death, says "CECIL SIDNEY CHRISTOPHER    COCK-COLLINS         ALSO KNOWN AS CECIL SIDNEY HOPECOCK COLLINS    1952".

Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 19 October 17 07:51 BST (UK)
Quote
the mother's address is given as 146 Caistor Park Road,

Another possible Kenwyn connection! Arthur Kilonback moved to 146 Caistor Park Road sometime after 1901. His wife Ellen (born Ellen Leavers circa 1860) was from Liskeard in Cornwall. Her family was in Kenwyn in the 1861 census.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Thursday 19 October 17 08:13 BST (UK)
Quote
the mother's address is given as 146 Caistor Park Road,

Another possible Kenwyn connection! Arthur Kilonback moved to 146 Caistor Park Road sometime after 1901. His wife Ellen (born Ellen Leavers circa 1860) was from Liskeard in Cornwall. Her family was in Kenwyn in the 1861 census.

Ooh, thanks, ShaunJ! That is exciting! Definitely getting warmer now! I will have to concentrate the mind on trying to piece this together and re-examine what I have to see if there are any other clues. I haven't quite got my head around all of what we have yet...

(Edit: I got sidetracked googling the Bechuanaland Border Police - another whole lot of history of which I am mostly ignorant - and discovered this document which tells us that on 1st April 1893, there was a total of 395 troops in the force. http://libsysdigi.library.illinois.edu/ilharvest/Africana/Books2011-05/466540/466540_1893_1894/466540_1893_1894_opt.pdf.)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Annette7 on Thursday 19 October 17 21:51 BST (UK)
Believe I have found the family of Albert Edward Cock b.Dec.qtr.1874 Truro - mmn Woodcott (on GRO Index but believe as I suggested before that it should read 'Woollcott').

James Cock bc.1834 Kenwyn, Truro, Cornwall married Emily Woollcott Dec.qtr.1862 Islington - 3 children born:

Emily Kate Jane Cock b.4/5/1864 Clerkenwell (Islington)
Frederick William Cock birth Jun.1866 Clerkenwell
James Woollcott Cock birth Dec.1869 Truro, death Sept.qtr.1870 Truro

Mothers maiden name on all 3 births is Woollcott.

In 1871 family are in Kenwyn, Cornwall where Albert Edward Cock was born later that year.

Sometime between 1871 and 1879 family returned to London where father James Cock died 1879 Islington.

Then what happened?   I can't find any of the family on the census after James' death 1879. 

I did wonder if daughter Emily Kate Jane b.1864 was possible the 'Kate Cox' shown on the army service record but although I found a possible marriage for her - as Emily Kate Cock - it was to a William Edward Collins in Mar.qtr.1884 Chelsea - married 26/1/1884 Kensal Green.   Yes, Collins just to muddy the waters somewhat!   Her father was shown as James though can't read his occupation.

So, where on earth was the family in 1881 (2 years after James' death in Islington)?  I simply can't find them.  Obviously, can't be sure that Emily Kate Jane was the Emily Kate who married Wm.Ed. Collins either.

If, however, Albert Edward Cock-Collins is ultimately judged to be the Albert Edward Collins born 1871 Kenwyn, Truro on army service record then the Albert Edward Cock born Dec.1871 Truro seems a very strong contender to me.   The only thing 'throwing' me is the Kate Cox shown as sister on the army record.

Annette

PS - regarding them not appearing in UK incoming/outgoing immigration records I believe that army personnel didn't always appear in these records - although a policeman perhaps Albert was still employed with the army which could account for it.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Friday 20 October 17 07:32 BST (UK)
Wow, thanks Annette - that's a goldmine of information which I believe does show very plausible links, following the definitive one to the Kenwyn link with the London address. Tricky about Kate Cox though.

It's a bit odd and sounds a bit as if someone was trying to muddy the waters deliberately. Perhaps Albert didn't like his surname (perhaps because of the slang usage, which apparently has a long history!)? Is the husband of Emily Kate Cock being a Collins just a coincidence? Perhaps he adopted his brother-in-law's name after his own, then didn't want to name his married sister as having such a similar surname (Collins) as him?

I haven't been able to find any references to Cock-Collins in the UK Archives, although of course there are plenty of Cocks and Collinses. (I think I checked and none matched Albert Edward.)

How would I go about trying to obtain a copy of the birth certificate of Albert Edward Cock? Google brings me to this site: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ - is this the best way to obtain them?

Now I just have to try to put it all together and see if I can locate any further information via original records.

(Is there any point in my posting in the Cornwall section of this forum at the point where I hit the wall - or have all of the available likely resources been covered by all of you helpful people already?)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 20 October 17 12:05 BST (UK)
The 1891 census for York Infantry Barracks has Andrew Collins, private, aged 20, born Kerwin Cornwall. This must be Albert.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Saturday 21 October 17 05:20 BST (UK)
The 1891 census for York Infantry Barracks has Andrew Collins, private, aged 20, born Kerwin Cornwall. This must be Albert.

Thanks again, Shaun.

Having now found my way to FreeCEN, I am having some luck with retrieving further information there - only just started, first 1871 gave me a few more details, finds them running the Ship Inn (now Victoria Inn, and still there), in the Threemilestone district, and now I have just found James aged 17 in the 1851 Census:

       Surname       First name(s)       Rel       Status       Sex       Age       Occupation       Where Born       Remarks   
        COCK       James       Head       M       M       48       Builder (Employing 2 Men)        Cornwall - Truro           
        COCK       Jane       Wife       M       F       47               Cornwall - Truro           
        COCK       William       Son       U       M       20       Printer        Cornwall - Truro           
        COCK       Edward       Son       U       M       19       Grocer        Cornwall - Truro           
        COCK       James       Son       U       M       17       Teacher In British Schools        Cornwall - Truro           
               COCK       Joseph       Son       U       M       15       Painters Apprentice        Cornwall - Truro           
        COCK       Jane       Dau       U       F       12               Cornwall - Truro           
        COCK       John H       Son       U       M       9               Cornwall - Truro           
        WEBBER       Mary       Servnt       U       F       20       House Servant        Cornwall - Truro       

- So now that I'm on a roll, I'm going to work on finding what I can online with regard to the Cornwall life of the family, and then come back to the London moves.

One thing that struck me is that Albert is only about 7 when his father dies; I have yet to follow up on his mother, but perhaps Emily (Kate) became a kind of surrogate mum, and if her possibly older husband a father to Albert?

- I'll return once I have more definite info and some of the timelines sketched out and see where that leads.    
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Saturday 21 October 17 09:33 BST (UK)
Just briefly visiting the London end and going back to the Arthur Kilonback story, @ShaunJ, and the connection with his wife Ellen Leavers - what I have now found is a little confusing.

There's a 1901 Census record for their family here (presumably before moving to Caistor Park Road): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9NB-RV3

My problem is that I have found 2 Leavers families in Cornwall with daughter Ellen now.  ???

In 1871 there's an Ellen Leavers in Liskeard, aged 12, mother Elizabeth.

In 1871 there's an Ellen J Leavers in Kenwyn, aged 11, parents Edward and Philippa; they also appear in 1861 at a different address. Edward is a mason and their addresses are very close to the one I've now traced for the Cocks - only he is older than James Jnr the teacher/accountant and much younger than James Snr the builder. But on the face of it, this one would seem more likely, except that 1901 Census record says birthplace Liskeard.

Can you tell me where the Kilonback connection to that address is recorded? This is just too strange.

(I am still working my way through loads of records, finding a couple of children adopted children in the family too...)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 October 17 10:55 BST (UK)
Will send you a PM about Arthur Kilonback.

There are several West Ham addresses to be researched in this case and it would be worth seeking a look-up in the electoral rolls for 82 St James Road in the 1890's; 20 Corporation Street and 146 Caistor Park Road circa 1904. You could post a request on the Essex board and/or contact the Newham Local Studies Library (https://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Local-history-and-archives.aspx) which holds the electoral rolls

Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 October 17 11:12 BST (UK)
The family at 82 St James Road in 1891 was that of Robert Pearson.

As we have come to expect, there is a Cornwall connection. Robert Pearson's wife Jeanette (nee Barns) was born in St Germans, Cornwall in 1845 (birth registered as Jennet Wooding Barns, mmn Woodward).
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Saturday 21 October 17 11:40 BST (UK)
Thanks again for all of that, Shaun. Those are great suggestions.

I must just work on getting the earlier part of the family tree assembled first, based on what I've found on James Snr, then I'll come back to this.

I wonder why they all moved up to London?

Emily (Woolcott) is listed as "Keeper Beer House", btw; James Jr an accountant, so it looks as if they might have been running The Ship (now Victoria Inn) at Threemilestone. Perhaps she ran a pub in London before that?
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 21 October 17 12:14 BST (UK)
Does this relate to the same Cock family that Annette mentions on reply 15 ?

Albert Edward Cock born 5th October 1871
Bp 11th May 1875 St James Hatcham Surrey - edited Lewisham
James Cock, occ commercial traveller - edited
Emily, abode 9 Walpole Street

Emily Kate Jane Cock
Baptism 1 Jun 1864 St Mary Islington born 4th May
James Cock occ clerk
Emily abode Ba?sbury St

Frederick William Cock
Baptism 22 Apr 1866 St Mary Islington born 26 Mar
James Cock occ Railway ial?
Emily abode Ba?sbury St.

For info.
James Cock age 27 born Truro a boarder in Islington London, occ Railway Clerk
1861 census RG 9; Piece: 128; Folio: 128; Page: 7


Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 October 17 12:25 BST (UK)
Quote
Albert Edward Cock born 5th October 1871
Bp 11th May 1875 St James Hatcham Surrey
James Cock, occ commercial clerk,
Emily, abode 9 Walpole Street

That's a good find, Ladyhawk.

Looking at the original image, the occupation is "commercial traveller" which ties in with Emily Kate Cock's marriage register entry in 1884 ("traveller" )
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 21 October 17 12:30 BST (UK)

Looking at the original image, the occupation is "commercial traveller" which ties in with Emily Kate Cock's marriage register entry in 1884 ("traveller" )

You are correct Shaun occupation should read commercial traveller - will modify my post  :)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Saturday 21 October 17 13:01 BST (UK)
Bingo! That's a great find, thanks, Ladyhawk.  :) I don't suppose it says where Albert Edward was born? Looks as if they waited 4 years to baptise him...

I think I've done my dash for tonight though - I've spent a long time looking up and recording the Cornwall records today and it's late here now. I'll have to come back to this tomorrow.

(Edit: I couldn't help having a go at looking up the addresses. That road must be Barnsbury St - not far from the Almeida and the King's Head. I used to be fairly familiar with Islington decades ago, when I lived in Stoke Newington! I found Hatcham St James too. The current church must have been rebuilt though; it looks quite modern.)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 21 October 17 13:41 BST (UK)
Bingo! That's a great find, thanks, Ladyhawk.  :)

I don't suppose it says where Albert Edward was born? Looks as if they waited 4 years to baptise him...

Sorry it doesn't say where he was born

for info. source for the baptism was from
London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1916 on Anc*y
Register type : Parish Registers


Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 October 17 18:23 BST (UK)
I've been searching for sister Emily Kate Collins/Cox.  Found this family in Vicarage Road, West Ham, in the 1901 census:

William Collins 39 Grocer's Carman born Hackney
Emily K - wife 38 born Beds. St Albans
Emily K - daur 10 born Stratford
Ivey G - daur 3 born Stratford
Charles Latham - Bro-in-law 31 Carrier's clerk born Crewe, Cheshire
Alice M Latham - visitor 7 born Stratford

I would have disregarded this because of the St Albans birthplace but researching the Colllns children revealed the mother's maiden name as Cox.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 October 17 19:54 BST (UK)
The 1911 census offers a bit more circumstantial evidence - search for Kate Collins in West Ham born 1864.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 October 17 20:27 BST (UK)
1891

49 Cruickshank Road, West Ham

William Collins  27 carman Hackney
Katie Collins wife 26 Barnsbury
Kate Collins daur 1mo   Stratford
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Sunday 22 October 17 10:20 BST (UK)
Ah, that's all great information too, Shaun, thanks!

I can't keep up... I've been creating records and putting the family together, sidetracked by research into St James Hatcham and tried to track what happened to the other brother Frederick William (one or two possibilities but nothing definitive), and also just found my way to the GRO index to look for Emily Woolcott (var.).

The nearest I've found is this one:
WOOLCOTT, EMILY  CATHERINE  (mmn) NEAL      
GRO Reference: 1842  M Quarter in ST. GILES IN THE FIELDS & ST. GEORGE BLOOMSBURY  Volume 01  Page 52
- which isn't all that far from Clerkenwell (as later registered in the Census - which I assume was the registration district for Islington...). What do you think? Catherine doesn't crop up anywhere else, but she does give her daughter Kate as a second name.

I will have a look at those Collins links now and try to match them up.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 22 October 17 16:28 BST (UK)
There's an Emily Woollcott born Clerkenwell in 1844, mmn Boulton. A public tree on Ancestry has her parents as William Thomas Woollcott and wife Catherine Ann Boulton.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 22 October 17 16:46 BST (UK)
There's an Emily Woollcott born Clerkenwell in 1844, mmn Boulton. A public tree on Ancestry has her parents as William Thomas Woollcott and wife Catherine Ann Boulton.

Was about to post this info.

Emily Woollcott
born 28th May 1844
Baptism 8 Sep 1844 Clerkenwell St James, Islington,
parents William Thomas Woollcott occ Officer’s Clerk, Catharine Ann, 4 Roseman St

Emily Woollcott mmn  BOULTON  1844  Jun Quarter Saint James' Clerkenwell 

1851 HO107; Piece: 1499; Folio: 367; Page: 3
William T Woolcott 36 St Luke occ ?any of Savings Bank
Catherine A 34 Clerkenwell
Mary B 14
William 12
EMILY 6
Walter 2
Sarah Wilson 20 servant

1861 RG 9; Piece: 128; Folio: 39; Page: 36
Emily Woolcott 17 London Middlesex boarder living Islington

 marriage 26 Mar 1836 St James, Clerkenwell, Islington
William Thomas Woolcott
Catherine Ann Boulton


The nearest I've found is this one:
WOOLCOTT, EMILY  CATHERINE  (mmn) NEAL      
1842  M Quarter in ST. GILES IN THE FIELDS & ST. GEORGE BLOOMSBURY  Volume 01  Page 52
- which isn't all that far from Clerkenwell (as later registered in the Census - which I assume was the registration district for Islington...).

What do you think? Catherine doesn't crop up anywhere else, but she does give her daughter Kate as a second name.


Emily Catherine Woolcott Born 7th Feb
Baptism 6 Mar 1842 Bloomsbury St George, Camden
parents Frederick Woolcott occ Fringe Manufactuer, Sarah abode Sinney Court

Edit~ Emily is not on the 1851 census with her parents and siblings - has she died?

GRO indexes has this death - but her yob 1844 :-\
Emily WOOLCOT age  2 or might be 2 months
1846  D Quarter in MARYLEBONE  Volume 01  Page 204

HO107; Piece: 1511; Folio: 23; Page: 39
Frederick Woolcott 37 Bloomsbury occ fringe manufacturer
Sarah 38 City of London
Henry 12 Bloomsbury
Charles 12
Frederick 10
Caroline Halls 18 servant

Henry Woolcott and Charles Woolcott Born 14th May  Bp3 Jun 1838 Bloomsbury St George, Camden

Frederick William Woolcott Born 6th April Bp 26 Apr 1840 Bloomsbury St George, Camden
parents Frederick Woolcott, fringe manufactuer , Sarah abode Sinney Court

Marriage    6 Jul 1836 St Marylebone, Westminster
Frederick Woolcott to Sarah Neale

Not found the family on the 1861 census and not sure if this will be of any help
Frederick Woolcott & Sarah’s daughter Catharine Emma bp 6th July 1851 born 15 June , abode Bedford Street

ADDED ~ possibly explains why I couldn't find parents in 1861

Frederick WOOLCOTT  age 39  (born c1814)
1853 M Quarter in STRAND  Volume 01B  Page 274

Sarah WOOLCOTT age 48  (born c1812)
1860  D Quarter in STRAND  Volume 01B  Page 286

Here's son Charles living in Bedford Street he's head of household
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2M2-P8JC

looking at the original entry there's no Emily Catherine or Catharine Emma with him only
Frederick W 21
Richard J 17
Clara J(ane)  15






Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Monday 23 October 17 05:22 BST (UK)
Hmmm, I think that the Clerkenwell one does seem a bit more likely, but that does make her a bit younger, and a slight variation on the spelling (Woollcott vs Woolcott) although I know that's not always significant. The marriage record transcription here shows 1 el: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DVC-MVW

Thanks again - I will work through them and see if I can find anything else.

In the meantime, I found a possible match for Emily Jr/Kate's husband William Collins - ?
Possible birth record, from GRO - the only William Collins in that year
COLLINS, WILLIAM COWARD mmn WILLBURN
GRO Reference: 1863 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 408

Edit: The son James Woollcott Cock, who died young in Truro, uses this spelling:
COCK, JAMES  WOOLLCOTT      mmn WOOLLCOTT      
GRO Reference: 1869  D Quarter in TRURO  Volume 05C  Page 173

- and Annette's earlier transcription spells it this way, so I think this adds to the weight of evidence to the 1844 one, although I see that the spelling is varied in other records.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 24 October 17 13:40 BST (UK)
spelling (Woollcott vs Woolcott) although I know that's not always significant.

The marriage record transcription here shows 1 el: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DVC-MVW


Dec 1862 Islington   1b   460
Woollcott   Emily       

You can view the hand written entry on FreeBMD and it's definately spelt WOOLLCOTT

Have checked the London marriage entries on Anc*y, unfortunately there's not one for Emily to
check their father's names and occupations  :(


In the meantime, I found a possible match for Emily Jr/Kate's husband William Collins - ?

Possible birth record, from GRO - the only William Collins in that year

COLLINS, WILLIAM COWARD mmn WILLBURN
1863 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 408


Not sure if this relates to the above William

There’s an entry FreeBMD for 1855 Hackney
William COLLINS
One of the female names on same page
Eliza WILLBOURNE

28 May 1855   St John of Jerusalem, South Hackney, Hackney, England
William Collins f/a single labourer,  South Hackney
father William Collins, labourer
Eliza Willbourne f/a single  father  Henry, labourer
Both signed their names
witnessed by William Collins & Charlotte Collins both made their mark (x)

Not sure if this might be William & Eliza Collins as they are living in Stratton Wiltshire

1861 RG 9; Piece: 1269; Folio: 78; Page: 30
William Collins 52 Ag labouer
Sarah 62
WILLIAM 25 son South Marston Wiltshire occ Ag Labourer
Eliza 20 dau in law
Mary J 4mths  gd dau




Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 24 October 17 13:50 BST (UK)
From memory there's an 1861 census entry for William Collins which shows his occupation as British Wine Maker and Methodist Lay Preacher. I'll see if I can find it again. The wine maker bit kind of tallies with the 1884 marriage register for William Edward Collins and Emily Kate Cock which shows his father's occupation as wine merchant.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 24 October 17 14:01 BST (UK)
1861

18 Brunswick Terrace, Hackney

William Collins  29 British Wine Maker and Methodist Lay Preacher, Hackney
Eliza Collins  28 Laundress, Hackney
Eliza Collins 5 Hackney
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Tuesday 24 October 17 14:07 BST (UK)
1871

London Fields, Hackney: next to a Methodist Chapel.  Near Pacifico's Alms Houses.

1 Jublee (sic) Cottages

William Collins 37 Wine Maker, Kent
Eliza Collins  38 Herefordshire
Eliza Collins 15 Errand Girl, Homerton
William Collins  7 Scholar, Hackney



Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Wednesday 25 October 17 06:39 BST (UK)
Thanks for those, Shaun and Ladyhawk.

The ag. labourer doesn't seem like a good fit, the wine maker/preacher more likely; but my brain is currently in a mess after spending many hours yesterday and today trying to sort out a big tangle of Woolcotts and Woollcotts on Geni, further up the line - and still busy on it.

I will get back to this when I can but with pressure of other things as well, it may not be for another day or two...
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Wednesday 25 October 17 08:54 BST (UK)
1861

18 Brunswick Terrace, Hackney
William Collins  29 British Wine Maker and Methodist Lay Preacher, Hackney
Eliza Collins  28 Laundress, Hackney
Eliza Collins 5 Hackney
1871

London Fields, Hackney: next to a Methodist Chapel.  Near Pacifico's Alms Houses.
1 Jublee (sic) Cottages
William Collins 37 Wine Maker, Kent
Eliza Collins  38 Herefordshire
Eliza Collins 15 Errand Girls, Homerton
William Collins  7 Scholar, Hackney

Snippet From Genuki Gazetteer
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/MDX/Hackney/HackneyHistory

HACKNEY, a parish and an extensive suburb of the metropolis, in the N.E. division of the Tower Hamlets, hundred of Ossulstone, county Middlesex, 2½ miles N. by E. of London, commencing about a mile from Shoreditch church

previous to 1835 it formed one parish, but is now divided into Hackney St. John, South Hackney, and West Hackney, together comprising the hamlets of Hackney Proper, Homerton, Clapton, Dalston, De Beauvoir Town, Stamford Hill, and Kingsland.

Below is the only Eliza Collins born c1855 I can find on FreeBMD registered in Hackney but this Eliza has a middle name  :-\

Jun 1856 Hackney 1b 302
Eliza Elizabeth COLLINS GRO indexes show mmn WILBURN

Quote
28 May 1855   St John of Jerusalem, South Hackney, Hackney, England
William Collins f/a single labourer,  South Hackney
father William Collins, labourer
Eliza Willbourne f/a single  father  Henry, labourer
Both signed their names
witnessed by William Collins & Charlotte Collins both made their mark (x)

To confuse matters there are also these birth entries mmn WILLBOURNE

COLLINS, RICHARD  THOMAS 
1857  D Quarter in HACKNEY  Volume 01B  Page 348

COLLINS, WILLIAM  EDWIN 
1857  D Quarter in HACKNEY  Volume 01B  Page 348

William Edward & Henry Richard Collins Bp 21 Dec 1857 South Hackney St John of Jerusalem, Hackney
parents William Collins occ labourer Eliza Collins abode Well St

there are these deaths registered in Hackney

William Edward Collins Dec 1857 age 0 months
and
Henry Richard Collins died Mar 1858 age 3 (months)

I cannot find a baptisms in Hackney for William Coward Collins (1863)

or Eliza (c1855) & William Collins (c1863) father William occ Wine Maker  ???







Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Friday 27 October 17 09:19 BST (UK)
I am going to have to come back to William Collins and Woollcotts tomorrow with a progress report, but in the meantime have received Albert's birth certificate from GRO and it shows that Albert Edward Cock was born in Truro, at the address mentioned in the 1871 Census (Victoria Place - Ship Inn - now Victoria Inn).
 :) :) :)

So thought I'd just share this now, with all of you who have been helping me on this one. I'm really delighted to have filled in so many gaps and built this tree thus far.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Saturday 28 October 17 09:17 BST (UK)
I've managed to find and add quite a bit of info to the older Truro Cock records today, but getting back to Emily Kate who married William, cannot seem to piece anything sensible together, despite going down many different avenues of enquiry.

I did find a William Richard Collins who gets married in 1889 in West Ham, on both FamilySearch and FreeBMD (and have looked at the scanned entry), but I can't seem to get to his spouse's name.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2D6Q-37D
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=npydPQXg%2FmnwuOe3bxAHHQ&scan=1

I don't understand properly how to search for the spouse, although I tried to follow the BMD instructions. When I search on Marriages using the volume and page numbers, I find Julia Barkway marrying William James Tilbury (both different line numbers to William Richard Collins)...  ??? ???

Edit: I also tried to look for the death of Emily Cock (mother of Albert E and Emily Kate) on GRO, but nothing seems to fit. The only one in West Ham gives an age of 0:
COCK, EMILY        0            
GRO Reference: 1893  D Quarter in WEST HAM  Volume 04A  Page 6   
 ???
Oh, and there's one in Truro, but her DOB doesn't match - too late:
COCK, EMILY        35            
GRO Reference: 1890  M Quarter in TRURO  Volume 05C  Page 115          
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 28 October 17 12:36 BST (UK)
Thank you for sharing the details of Albert's b/c and glad you are now able to fill in some of your gaps  :)


I did find a William Richard Collins who gets married in 1889  West Ham, on both FamilySearch and FreeBMD (and have looked at the scanned entry),
but I can't seem to get to his spouse's name.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2D6Q-37D
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=npydPQXg%2FmnwuOe3bxAHHQ&scan=1


William Richard Collins
1889   Jan-Feb-Mar   West Ham Essex
Volume:   4a page:   181

Records on Page: Name
William Richard Collins
Clara Maud Ramsey
details from England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915 on Anc*y

and FreeBMD

Mar 1889   
Collins    William Richard        West Ham  4a   181    
Ramsey    Clara Maud            W.Ham        4a   181

Edit

1891c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3R2K-F2M
William Collens born c 1860 Essex occ wine merchants assistant
Wife Clara M

1901c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X98W-194
William R Collins born c1860 Woodford Essex occ Grocers Assistant
Wife Clara

1911c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWFN-V6L
William Richard Collins 1860 Woodford occ Cooper Plate Printer

Harold William COLLINS mmn RAMSEY     
1904  M Quarter in HACKNEY  Volume 01B  Page 449   

Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 28 October 17 17:01 BST (UK)
In 1871 family are in Kenwyn, Cornwall where Albert Edward Cock was born later that year.

Sometime between 1871 and 1879 family returned to London where father James Cock died 1879 Islington.
Edit:
I also tried to look for the death of Emily Cock (mother of Albert E and Emily Kate) on GRO,
but nothing seems to fit.
The only one in West Ham gives an age of 0:
COCK, EMILY       0  1893  D Quarter in WEST HAM  Volume 04A  Page 6    ???
Oh, and there's one in Truro, but her DOB doesn't match - too late:
COCK, EMILY  35   1890  M Quarter in TRURO  Volume 05C  Page 115    

If this is the correct death entry for James

Jun 1879 Islington   1b   225
James Cock age 45 (c1834)   

Could this be Emily although her birth year is a couple of years out  :-\

Jun 1895 Islington 1b 121
Emily Cox  age 49  (c1846)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Sunday 29 October 17 04:55 GMT (UK)

If this is the correct death entry for James

Jun 1879 Islington   1b   225
James Cock age 45 (c1834)   

Could this be Emily although her birth year is a couple of years out  :-\

Jun 1895 Islington 1b 121
Emily Cox  age 49  (c1846)


Hmmm, yes, that does look like a likely candidate! Thanks again Ladyhawk. (I thought I'd searched well enough to cover Coxes as well, but obviously missed that one.) Being in the June quarter, she may not have had her (May) birthday yet - and her age has been variously reported on different sources anyway...

There is one thing against it, and that is the information given by Annette in Reply#10, that he gave his sister Kate as NOK when he enlisted, which must have been before this Emily Cox had died - but perhaps he thought it safer to give his sister, if his mother was sickly. In favour, is the fact that he used Cox for his sister's name too too, and also that it's also Islington, same as her husband James.

I wonder if the death record would yield any useful information which would confirm or refute this idea? Might be worth the money just to make sure.

Btw I found the GRO record pertaining to (Emily) Kate's daughter Emily Kate's birth in 1891 which gives MMN as Cox (the other day; I can't remember if I've already mentioned that).
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 29 October 17 09:01 GMT (UK)
Quote
There is one thing against it, and that is the information given by Annette in Reply#10, that he gave his sister Kate as NOK when he enlisted,

We don't know when he named his sister as NOK. The only surviving document containing that information is his military history sheet which looks to have been prepared in 1893, completed in late June 1895, and the NoK information appears to have been added in a different hand at some point. 
Title: Re: Albert Edward Cox/Cock/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Sunday 29 October 17 10:43 GMT (UK)
We don't know when he named his sister as NOK. The only surviving document containing that information is his military history sheet which looks to have been prepared in 1893, completed in late June 1895, and the NoK information appears to have been added in a different hand at some point. 

Oh, I see - thanks, Shaun. Well I think that in that case it seems worthwhile ordering a copy of her death certificate, and possibly husband James' too. Perhaps both of the women decided to start using Cox because the name was more common in the London area and/or Cock was embarrassing (and Albert changed his name to Collins for the same reason)? And it seems that Emily and William moved around a bit - first to Forest Gate (Stratford area) around 1895 and then West Ham by 1904.

It'll take a few days, but I'll report back when I get something substantial.

(Edit: I've removed Martha Cox from the header, as this is no longer relevant.)
Title: Re: Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Saturday 04 November 17 03:05 GMT (UK)

If this is the correct death entry for James

Jun 1879 Islington   1b   225
James Cock age 45 (c1834)   

Could this be Emily although her birth year is a couple of years out  :-\

Jun 1895 Islington 1b 121
Emily Cox  age 49  (c1846)


I've received the PDF from the GRO for Emily Cox and unfortunately this couldn't be her. She was an unmarried schoolmistress in Upper Holloway, daughter of a William John Cox. So back to the drawing board on that one too! :P
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 04 November 17 12:30 GMT (UK)
At Canonbury, London, on Saturday, Nov 8th, Mr. James Cock, formerly of Truro, to Miss Emily Woollcott, daughter of the late W. Woollcott, Esq

(Royal Cornwall Gazette, 14 November 1862)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Sunday 05 November 17 05:57 GMT (UK)
At Canonbury, London, on Saturday, Nov 8th, Mr. James Cock, formerly of Truro, to Miss Emily Woollcott, daughter of the late W. Woollcott, Esq

(Royal Cornwall Gazette, 14 November 1862)

So - as per your query in the other thread - does this confirm that I have the correct one? Where did you see other people's tree naming James as son of William? (I looked in FamilySearch but couldn't see any there.)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 05 November 17 08:29 GMT (UK)
The online trees that I mentioned are on Ancestry. They don't have the 1862 marriage details either so the parentage is presumably guesswork.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Sunday 05 November 17 10:10 GMT (UK)
Oh, I see.

I've just discovered that I've also made notes on Emily's entry:
Scans of marriage records for Emily and James can be viewed here via Free BMD: http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=TaLEkHoDTyrOzFiKZM8gbQ&scan=1 and here https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?r=34711644:0719&d=bmd_1508773079&scan=1
- spelt "Woollcott".
Dec 1862 Islington 1b 460; Woollcott Emily


However, looking at those entries doesn't actually show the marriage certificate, and I don't know if there's any way of getting to it?

Edit: The matching entry (1b 460) is for James Cock of Islington (although I also notice a James of Redruth, and a William of Truro...).
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Sunday 05 November 17 10:32 GMT (UK)
I have just found these records pertaining to James Cock son of William and Betsy:

Baptism - "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5HX-6JM : 6 December 2014, James Cock, 23 Jun 1833); citing SAINT CLEMENT,CORNWALL,ENGLAND, index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 916,885.

1851 Census: "England and Wales Census, 1851," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGT4-3CT : 29 July 2017), James Cock in household of William Cock, Lambeth, Surrey, England; citing Lambeth, Surrey, England, p. 20, from "1851 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO HO 107, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey.

In the census, he and his brother are errand boys and his father a painter, living in Lambeth. I think that the other James Cock would be a better fit for Emily - educated and at least aspiring middle class... I cannot now recall whether I found anything else definitive or decided on this basis at the time, but in the absence of absolute proof to the contrary, still prefer my James at this point.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Sunday 05 November 17 11:03 GMT (UK)
Oh, and I have just remembered the other link (which I think another one of my helpers here found, and I documented on my record), that James was in the Giles household aged 7 in the 1841 Census - hence the link with Jane Giles (mother), as his mmn was recorded somewhere as Giles.
I'm fairly sure that it all ties up that he was the one who married Emily in Islington. The 1851 census record shows him as a "teacher in British schools"; then a boarder in Islington in 1861 as a railway clerk. I suppose it is just conceivable that the errand boy may have become a clerk, but seems less likely.

FreeCEN doesn't seem to yield any matching results for the 1861 census for a James Cock b.c.1833. ???
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 05 November 17 17:08 GMT (UK)
Oh, and I have just remembered the other link (which I think another one of my helpers here found, and I documented on my record), that

James was in the Giles household aged 7 in the 1841 Census - hence the link with Jane Giles (mother), as his mmn was recorded somewhere as Giles.

I'm fairly sure that it all ties up that he was the one who married Emily in Islington.

The 1851 census record shows him as a "teacher in British schools";


For info. if this helps anyone looking

1841 c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQBS-N4V
Hugh GILES 73 Hatter (he died age 84 burial 30 Aug 1849 St Mary Truro Res Kenwyn)
Ann 35 grocer
Susan 28 “ (poss death age 40 burial 25 Mar 1949 St Mary Truro Res Kenwyn
James COCK 7
All born in this county

1829 marriage (Cornwall OPC)
James COCK to  Jane GILES
Witnesses Susan GILES & Edward COCK

1841c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQBS-JJK
James COCK (Builder), Jane, William, Edward, Joseph & Jane

1851c HO107; Piece: 1910; Folio: 403; Page: 1
Francis Street Kenwyn
James COCK 48 Builder (employing 2 men)
Jane 47
William 20 Painter
Edward 19 Grocer
JAMES 17 Teacher in British School
Joseph 15 Painter’s appr.
Jane 12
John H 9
1 servant
all born Truro

COCK, JANE mmn  GILES     
1838  D Quarter in TRURO UNION  Volume 09  Page 319   

COCK, JOHN  HENRY  mmn GILES     
1842  J Quarter in TRURO UNION  Volume 09  Page 336

1861 RG 9; Piece: 1559; Folio: 88; Page: 6
Grocers Shop, Kenwyn
James COCK 59 Widr. Mason employing 6 men 1 boy
William  30 painter
Edward 28 Grocer,
Joseph 25 painter,
Jane 22,
John H 18 iron monger
All born Truro

1881 James COCK retired builder and his married dau Jane HARRY with him
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27H-VSTN they are also together on 1871c
her dau Jane born 1870
Jane Giles HARRY  mmn COCK 1870  J Quarter in TRURO 

Obtaining the m/c for James Jnr. would confirm his father's name and their occupations


Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 05 November 17 17:53 GMT (UK)
I have just found these records pertaining to James Cock son of William and Betsy:

In the census, he and his brother are errand boys and his father a painter, living in Lambeth.
1851 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGT4-3CT

I think that the other James Cock would be a better fit for Emily - educated and at least aspiring middle class... I cannot now recall whether I found anything else definitive or decided on this basis at the time, but in the absence of absolute proof to the contrary, still prefer my James at this point.

1851
William Cock   Head      45   Truro, Cornwall
Betsy Cock   Wife      47   Green, Cornwall
Mathew Cock   Son      19   Green, Cornwall
James Cock   Son      17   Green, Cornwall
Mary Cock   Daughter      15   Green, Cornwall
Emily Cock   Daug      13   Green, Cornwall
Richard Cock   Son      12   Green, Cornwall
Edwin Cock   Son      7   Lambeth
Edwin COCK  mmn WHITFORD    
1843  D Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 04  Page 284

1841c
Betsey Cock   37
Elizabeth Cock   14
William Cock   11
Mathews Cock   9
James Cock   7
Mary Cock   6
Emiley Cock   4
Richard Cock   3
John Cock   1
Piece:   147
Folio:   86
Page Number:   11

Betsy Whitford
Wm Cock
Marriage 1826 St Clement Cornwall
England, Pallot's Marriage Index, 1780-1837

There are these bp on Cornwall OPC at St Clement
Father William occ painter mother Betsy

1826 Eliza Anne Cock
1828 Mary Whitford Cock
1830 William Cock
1831 Matthew Cock
1833 James Cock Cock
1835 Mary Whitford Cock
1840 John Cock at St Mary Truro (GRO indexes confirm mmn WHITFORD)


Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Monday 06 November 17 05:10 GMT (UK)
Thanks, Ladyhawk. :)

I have some of those records already, but not all. I started having a look but then discovered a bit of a tangle on Geni (someone else's records who had got their John Cock mixed up with John Henry Cock in my family) and spent many hours investigating and recording those findings and explaining to the other person how they were different (turns our JH moved to Gloucestershire, got married, wife died early, no kids, ended up in Cirencester with his housekeeper and who then becomes his "niece", along with 2 of her sisters, by the look of things).

So I am going to have to revisit this lot later or tomorrow. In the meantime, by chance, I spotted these records when searching on GRO for others:
COCK, EDWIN        mmn WHITFORD     
GRO Reference: 1843  D Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 04  Page 284    
COCK, JOHN        mmn WHITFORD     
GRO Reference: 1840  M Quarter in TRURO UNION  Volume 09  Page 343    

Edit: I have now just spent hours building the Harry family, having found various records for Jane Harry's husband (who died at sea), 2 other children who died young, and various census records for Jane's sisters, etc. Computer has ground to a halt and it's time to take a break.

I haven't returned fully to James, but the fact that he's missing from his family's census record in the year that he's a boarder in Islington adds to the weight of evidence, I think. (I intend to check for more records of the other James' family members, but it seems unlikely that the errand boy James would be boarding in Islington 10 years after his family were living in Lambeth.)

Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Tuesday 07 November 17 01:42 GMT (UK)
I have tried to hunt down various male members of the Betsy & William family in future censuses, to no avail. The nearest I came was the 1861 census record which lists the son James as a hatter and his mother Elizabeth as head of household: "England and Wales Census, 1861," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-1FXD : 19 October 2017), James Cock in household of Elizabeth Cock, Bermondsey, London, Surrey, England; from "1861 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO RG 9, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey.
- but the ages are slightly out, so I don't know. They say born in "...Cornwall". Can anyone see the record to

Yes, I think that you're right, Ladyhawk - being able to see father's occupation on the marriage certificate should be the definitive proof. What I cannot find is exactly how to order a marriage certificate. The GRO site only seems to offer options for birth and death, although the UK gov sites point to it as the issuer of marriage certificates. I have just emailed them with a query. Various paid services offer access to records (e.g. one called Archive - sign up free for 7 days) - but I'm not sure that they show the actual certificates anyway.

Any other ideas?

In the meantime I will carry on with Albert's profile and see if I can add anything that's not already there. Is there any way of getting a full service record other than from the army? It costs £30 to do it there, which is a little steep... (And they want to be paid by cheque, which probably incurs another £10+ equivalent from Australia!)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 07 November 17 07:48 GMT (UK)

being able to see father's occupation on the marriage certificate should be the definitive proof. What I cannot find is exactly how to order a marriage certificate.

The GRO site only seems to offer options for birth and death, although the UK gov sites point to it as the issuer of marriage certificates. I have just emailed them with a query.

Any other ideas?


You should be able to order the marriage cert. from GRO  :-\

Have a look at this link
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#FamilyHistory1
 click on heading How to get started ordering online

They are doing a piloting service for Birth & Death
Births: 1837 –1916
Deaths: 1837 –1957
where you can obtain a PDF which costs £6, must be done online and include GRO index reference.

Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 07 November 17 08:28 GMT (UK)
Quote
1851 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKQ-S84
HO107; Piece: 1559; Folio: 174; Page: 43
3 White Hart Court Southwark
Matthew Cook   43 Truro Hatter
Elizabeth Cook   42 Truro
Thomas Cook   17 Hatter
John Cook   14 Errand boy
Margaret Cook   12
James Cook   10 Bermondsey
Matthew Cook   8      "
Edward Cook   3   Southwark

I just edited the above post and may have inadvertently taken out some other info.  ::)
as I had forgotten to add these birth entries at the end of the above

COCK, JAMES   mmn  WILLIAMS 
1840  D Quarter in SAINT MARY MAGDALEN BERMONDSEY SURREY  Volume 04  Page 36

COCK, MATTHEW mmn  WILLIAMS     
1843  J Quarter in SAINT MARY MAGDALEN BERMONDSEY SURREY  Volume 04  Page 31   

COCK, EDWARD    mmn   WILLIAMS     
1847  D Quarter in ST OLAVE'S UNION, SOUTHWARK  Volume 04  Page 485

I probably deleted following  ::)

1861 1 Cross Street Bermondsey
RG 9; Piece: 323; Folio: 69; Page: 13;
Elizabeth Cock   52 Truro
James Cock   28 Truro Hatter (I think he should be JOHN)
next page
Margaret Cock   23 Truro tailoress
James Cock   20 London Hatter
Matthew Cock   18 London leather dresser
Edward Cock   13 London


Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 07 November 17 08:40 GMT (UK)
I have tried to hunt down various male members of the Betsy & William family in future censuses, to no avail.

1851 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGT4-3CT
original all their pob Truro Cornwall apart from Edwin Lambeth

A public tree  on Anc*y - no certificates ie m/c, b/c, d/c, just references

James Cock 1833 St Clement Truro died 1879 Islington
parents
William Odgers Cock 1805-1854
Betsy Whitford 1804=1861
siblings
Elizabeth Ann 1826
Mary Whitford Cock 1828-1829
William 1830
Mary Whitford 1835-1856
Matthew 1831-1860 Truro
Emily Jane 1836-1912
Richard 1838-1855
John 1840-1842
Edwin 1843-1899

William Odgers Cock Baptism 03 Nov 1805 St. Clement, Cornwall
Father Matthew Cock  Mother   Elizabeth











Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Tuesday 07 November 17 08:42 GMT (UK)
Thanks, Ladyhawk.

I have looked all over the GRO site (and successfully ordered and obtained 2 PDFs of birth and death certificates), but the links from the marriage certificates just seem to go around in circles (to the UK government site and then back to GRO again).  ???

That's weird - the census record. I wonder if the first James was an error which they forgot to cross it out.  :-\

I'll see if I can find anything further about the other members of the family listed there. And Edward is a daughter?? But they don't look like the Betsy and William family.

Edit:And thanks again. I'll head back to the computer and see what I can find in a while.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 07 November 17 08:51 GMT (UK)

I have looked all over the GRO site (and successfully ordered and obtained 2 PDFs of birth and death certificates), but the links from the marriage certificates just seem to go around in circles (to the UK government site and then back to GRO again).  ???


Don't know if this might help or hinder you!!!!  Hope I haven't made a mistake or made it too complicated  ???

To order a marriage certficiate from GRO using this link
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/app_select.asp
   
Start Application
schroll to heading
For events registered in England and Wales
then down  to
Marriage (England & Wales) click on the empty circle
then further down page go to heading
For all events
click circle for GRO index number choose either  yes or no
if you click  yes need to add Reference information from GRO Index
if click no A minimum of one name and forename for the same party must be given
You need to supply year in which the event registered
click submit
this takes you to next page headed
Application for an England and Wales marriage certificate
Fill in particulars of the couple to whom the cert. is required and any info. indicated by an asterik *
then choose which
Service options  ie click Standard Certificate by Post
if you scroll down to
For further information about postal options then click on the link
see Most customers want to know – this will explain more about postal options/costs etc…….



Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 07 November 17 08:54 GMT (UK)

 And Edward is a daughter??

Oops that's my error Edward is son  ::)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Tuesday 07 November 17 10:54 GMT (UK)
Whew!

Okay, I think we can discount the hatters.

I have checked out some of the deaths and other records of the Betsy-William family.

Edwin is a boarder with a May family in Lambeth in 1871, a woodcutter aged 26, by which time all of his siblings and parents were presumably dead, with the exception perhaps of James, and sister Emily who may have got married (the trail went cold on her); dies in 1899.

No further clues there, although I did find a number of other James' deaths, including
COCK, JAMES        26   
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in ISLINGTON  Volume 01B  Page 128
i.e. but a Jun-July baby (both of the Jameses under consideration here) would have been born 1834 though. :-(
However, before the 1861 Census, in which James the railway clerk is boarding with the Finches in Islington - and James son of James and Jane is missing from the Truro census.
 ???

There's another one
COCK, JAMES        39   
GRO Reference: 1871  S Quarter in HAMPSTEAD  Volume 01A  Page 421
i.e. born 1831-2

And quite a few in other parts of Cornwall.

Thank you for those detailed instructions on ordering the marriage certificate, worked like a charm! I don't know why I couldn't find my way there before. My brain goes foggy sometimes.  :-[

I will probably go ahead and order the marriage certificate but will leave it one more day in case something else turns up or clicks into place tomorrow. Not having the option of a PDF, it will take longer (and cost a few more quid).

I'd really like to know if the Ancestry authors had something definite, or just made an assumption on the marriage to Emily Woollcott? I like to document all of my references as I build records (at least on the major players). Is there any way of contacting them?
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Wednesday 08 November 17 02:34 GMT (UK)
Well I've now ordered the marriage certificate, so let's hope that it provides some definite proof one way or another, and hopefully arrives within 10 days. A shame that they haven't got the PDF option for those as well.

I found various records for the William Odgers Cock-Betsy Whitford family on FamilySearch too, but nothing that provides anything useful.

So back to Albert Edward for now... :-)

I thought that I'd try to see if I could complete the record for Albert's brother Frederick William; however can find no death record for him in GRO at all. This is what I have so far:

COCK, FREDERICK WILLIAM mmn WOOLLCOTT
GRO Reference: 1866 J Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 210

Frederick William Cock - Baptism 22 Apr 1866, St Mary Islington; born 26 Mar.
Father: James Cock, occ. Railway clerk; mother Emily. Abode Barnsbury St.

1871 Census, in Kenwyn (near Truro), Cornwall, aged 5: "England and Wales Census, 1871", database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFJD-7WJ : 23 June 2017), Frederick W Cock in entry for James Cock, 1871. Birthplace Clerkenwell (London).

There are a few possible marriages, but no firm links to other family members or other evidence of existence beyond 1871. (A few William Frederick Coxes die in WW1 in France, but there's no way of matching these up.)

Just in case anyone has any other ideas? I suspect that he died young and that Kate was Albert's only surviving sibling by the time he went back to England in 1904, but so far no definite proof of Frederick's death - why wasn't it recorded on GRO? ???
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Saturday 11 November 17 02:28 GMT (UK)
I have been finding a few more records (including a branch of the Woollcott family that emigrated to Australia), and a possible fit for the death of Frederick William Cock, although it's odd that there's nothing from 1871 onwards, the location of death is a way away and the age out by a year or two:
COCK, FREDERICK WILLIAM 83 GRO Reference: 1948 M Quarter in SHEPPEY Volume 05B Page 727  ???

In the meantime, I've been able to get Albert's basic military record from FindMyPast as they're doing free military this weekend. :-) Not sure why his age is recorded as 16yr 6mth on the transcript, because now that I can see the handwritten document, it says 18yr 6mth on this. I've sent them a correction. Why he joined up in Halifax (working as a "waiter") is a mystery. So he joined the Duke Of Wellington's West Riding Regiment. No other records.

I suppose the the passport application I found for AE Collins on 24 June 1892 could be for his army travels. There's no info there and I don't remember where I found it.

The AE Cox on the Mexican in 1896 to Durban does fit his age, but why would he change his name for that (and wonder if he'd be able to, if his passport said Collins?).

I am revisiting other FindMyPast records and see this one, which must be the return journey after his son Cecil's birth in West Ham (any other info welcome).
Collins    A E    1872 —  1904    Passenger Lists Leaving Uk 1890-1960    Cape, South Africa

(There's also an Albert Cock listed twice, leaving UK for the Cape in 1901, but that date doesn't fit in, as his first son was born in Cape Town in March 1901.)

Edit: Albert's wife Martha (nee Carter) doesn't seem to be mentioned on the passenger lists to or from England around 1904 as Collins or Cock-Collins, but could either of these be her under her maiden name?
Carter    M    —    —    1903    Passenger Lists Leaving Uk 1890-1960    Cape, South Africa    
Carter    M    —    —    1904    Passenger Lists Leaving Uk 1890-1960    Cape, South Africa
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 11 November 17 12:24 GMT (UK)
I have been finding a few more records (including a branch of the Woollcott family that emigrated to Australia),

and  possible fit for the death of Frederick William Cock, although it's odd that there's nothing from 1871 onwards, the location of death is a way away and the age out by a year or two:

COCK, FREDERICK WILLIAM 83 1948 M Quarter in SHEPPEY Volume 05B Page 727  ???


No middle name there's this Frederick on the 1881 census a possibility?

Frederick Cock Age:   16 London, London, Middlesex Lodger Occupation: Shoeing Smith
RG11; Piece: 1378; Folio: 127; Page: 85

I believe this is the Frederick who died in 1948 Sheppey

1939 register Sheppey Kent
Frederick W   Cock   1864
Milli E Cock there's one more person on this record

8 Jul 1893 St Mary, Stoke Newington, Hackney
Frederick William Cock age 29 father Joseah Cock married Sophia Russ
Bp 10 Apr 1864 St Matthias Stoke Newington Hackney parents Josiah & Emma

His Army records on F M P confirm above marriage and death
Service number   20167 Regiment   Royal Engineers
Cock   Frederick William  1864   —   1906   British Army Service Records   London, Middlesex, England

children
Winifred Francis Emma 1894, Alice Sophia 1896, Francis George 1899, Albert Victor Godfrey 1902

Death certificate 15 Jan 1948 Sheppey, informant C G Cock son, 88 Alma Street Sheerness

Frederick  remarried 1907 Millie Elizabeth Odell
First wife’s children Francis George 1899 & Albert Victor 1902
Charles Gordon 1907
details can be seen on his Army Records
number   95832 Regiment   Royal Engineers
Cock Frederick William  1864 —   1915   British Army Service Records   Middlesex, England

It looks as if you can rule out these FWC marriages

Marriage 1887 Bath
Frederick William C(aswell) Cock father Nathaniel Caswell Cock   
Ada Alberta Ashley

Banns (Bann)
Marriage Banns 22 Jul 1888 St Mary, Lambeth, Lambeth
Frederick William Cock father Frederick
Louisa Mary Brown

Marriage 1898 Paddington
Frederick William Cock age 34. M.D. his father Frederick, Physician
Frances Louisa Evans

marriage 1886 Chorlton
Frederick William Cock there's one female name missing looked at Lancashire BMD
1886 marriage Hulme, St. Michael  COCK   Frederick W   WALKER Alice   
you can view marriage cert. on family search  his father William











Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Sunday 12 November 17 02:08 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much for checking out all of those, Ladyhawk - much appreciated.

In the process of looking for your 1881 Frederick, I also came across:
a Frederick W Cox; age and place of birth matching, but working as a "Page" at an hotel in Hanover Square, aged 15. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK65-KQNW
and
a Frederick Cock who marries Sarah Jane Spiers in Oct-Dec 1884 (a bit young?) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DVB-NS9 (and has a child in 1888).
But that shoesmith is definitely a possibility... although I've just found an 1864 birth record of a Frederick born in Edmonton (same district as that shoesmith census record).

Hmmm, I just found this Frederick Cock born Islington, living in Union Rd, West Ham, "commercial traveller" with wife Wilhelmina and daughter in 1901: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9NW-KL1 (Edit: Found a birth registration for a Frederick Cock in Islington Apr-Jun 1866 which is probably this one.)

Rather too many Fredericks around that time though!  :-\ I think I'll just have to go back to concentrating on Albert again for a while, sifting through everything again for clues...

Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 12 November 17 14:53 GMT (UK)

Hmmm, I just found this Frederick Cock born Islington, living in Union Rd, West Ham, "commercial traveller" with wife Wilhelmina and daughter in
1901: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9NW-KL1
(Edit: Found a birth registration for a Frederick Cock in Islington Apr-Jun 1866 which is probably this one.)

Rather too many Fredericks around that time though!

For info........

Ada Wilhelmina Vincent COCKS mother mmn HILL, Ada is with her BEDFORD relatives
in 1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXY-T5R
GRO indexes Violet F E Bedford born 1898 mmn HOW

marriage Jun 1896   W. Ham
COCKS Frederick   
female name on same page
HILL Wilhelmina Vincent

COCKS Frederick  died Dec 1902 W. Ham   age 36 (1866)

COCKS Wilhelmina Vincent remarries  Mar 1906 W. Ham
COXON    Richard Henry   or
HOW Ralph Dixon

death Mar West Ham 1908
HOW Wilhelmina Vincent age 36

Unfortunately marriage of Frederick to Wilhelmina not available to view on line to check his father's name and as you say there are quite a number of Frederick's born around same time    
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Thursday 16 November 17 10:51 GMT (UK)
Yes... Having chased down various trails, I think I'll give up on Frederick again (at least for now).  :-\

I have, however (with a bit of help from Shaun via PM) managed to see all of Albert C-C's military records held on FindMyPast, since I downloaded them for free on their weekend special! So that's great - I've been transcribing it all and will build his record up from that.

Then today decided to start having another look at the Emily Kate Collins (Cock)/Kate Cox and William Collins records. I think I've found her death record (not sure how I missed it before!):
COLLINS, EMILY  KATE      70   
GRO Reference: 1935  M Quarter in WEST HAM  Volume 04A  Page 52
(b.1864)
and possibly William's:
COLLINS, WILLIAM  EDWARD      68   
GRO Reference: 1932  J Quarter in WEST HAM  Volume 04A  Page 220
(b.1863-4).

And having looked more closely at all of the records that you (Ladyhawk) supplied about the William-Eliza Willbourne/Willburn records, I think that they could fit.
William Collins snr and Eliza Willbourne  get married 28 May 1855 (males all labourers).
They have Eliza Elizabeth COLLINS Jun 1856 Hackney.
Then have twin boys Dec 1857, William Edwin/Edward and Richard Thomas, who both die as infants.

By 1861, William is a wine maker Methodist Lay Preacher, and Eliza Sr a laundress. Eliza Jr aged 5. 18 Brunswick Terrace, Hackney. (Which no longer exists but I found some refs to it, e.g. https://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/Hackney/BrunswickArms.shtml )

1863 Oct-Dec another William is born - and I'm wondering if this record on GRO
COLLINS, WILLIAM  COWARD      mmn WILLBURN 
GRO Reference: 1863  D Quarter in HACKNEY  Volume 01B  Page 408
may have been mistranscribed and supposed to be William Edward.

1871 - William Sr wine maker, living next door to Hackney Methodist Church though (London Fields, near Pacifico's Alms Houses, area mentioned here - http://edithsstreets.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/). Eliza is 15, William is 7.

The dates seem to fit, so if I don't find a hitch when I run through it all again tomorrow, think that I will order the William-Emily Kate marriage perhaps the William Edward birth certificates. I think that's the only way to get clarity on this family.



Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 17 November 17 11:22 GMT (UK)
Just a quick note on "Walpole Street" - abode of the Cock family at the time of Albert Edward's baptism in 1875. This is likely to be Walpole Street in Deptford, now renamed Pagnell Street. It's less than half a mile from St James' Church, Hatcham.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 17 November 17 13:42 GMT (UK)
The Matabeleland roll for 2nd battalion West Riding Regiment gives an address for Albert Edward Collins: Newlands, Cape Town

Also note that an Albert Collins attested for the Cape Mounted Police in July 1895 (number 3919178). You can get a copy of his attestation papers - see  https://angloboerwar.com/unit-information/south-african-units/310-cape-mounte

Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Saturday 18 November 17 08:01 GMT (UK)
The Matabeleland roll for 2nd battalion West Riding Regiment gives an address for Albert Edward Collins: Newlands, Cape Town

Also note that an Albert Collins attested for the Cape Mounted Police in July 1895 (number 3919178). You can get a copy of his attestation papers - see  https://angloboerwar.com/unit-information/south-african-units/310-cape-mounte



Thanks very much for that, Shaun, and for the previous info about Walpole St (I had actually wonderered about that one because the only Walpole St I could find was nowhere near there!).

So at some point he gets domiciled in Cape Town, presumably meets future wife (Martha Carter - still no marriage record found), and also signs up for the Cape Mounted Police - but I don't think could have fought in the Boer War (unless injured and invalided out?), as his first child was born in Feb 1901. Oddly, when I searched on the surname Collins, it returned zero hits, but found him when I used the number you gave. I'll look into getting his attestation papers.

Edit: Do you happen to know the year of that Newlands, Cape Town address?
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 18 November 17 08:28 GMT (UK)
Quote
Edit: Do you happen to know the year of that Newlands, Cape Town address?

It's a printed list published in 1896 so presumably prepared in 1895/6.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Saturday 18 November 17 08:38 GMT (UK)
Quote
Edit: Do you happen to know the year of that Newlands, Cape Town address?

It's a printed list published in 1896 so presumably prepared in 1895/6.

Ah, thanks. I've sent off a query about the attestation papers and also just found this in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Mounted_Police#Bechuanaland_Campaign
When British Bechuanaland was annexed to the colony in November 1895, it was added to District 2. 106 members of the Bechuanaland Border Police were transferred to the CP.[15]
Bechuanaland Campaign
British Bechuanaland was soon the scene of the CP's first military action. During the 1896-97 rinderpest epidemic, CP District 2 was ordered to ensure that infected livestock were killed. Batswana leaders resisted the order, leading to armed conflict and a lengthy standoff in the Langberg mountains. As the CP did not have the necessary resources, the government mobilised the defence force to end the resistance. Units of CP District 2 were attached to the military Bechuanaland Field Force for the eight-month-long operation.


I have to break now, not sure when I'll get back to it, but this is an interesting lead, so thank you again. :-)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 18 November 17 11:16 GMT (UK)
Apologies if I'm duplicating here............... just in case you've not seen this I thought I'd post

Albert Edward Collins age 33 (born c 1873)
Residence Mowbray
Initiation Date:   5 Sep 1906
passing Oct 3
raising Aprl 1/07
First Payment Year on Register:   1907
Year Range:   1887-1909
Profession:   Police Sergt.
Lodge:   Rondebosch Lodge
Lodge Location:   Rondebosch, South Africa, WD
Lodge Number:   3141
Folio Number:   90

Albert Edward Collins
Initiation Date:   1906
First Payment Year on Register:   1910
Year Range:   1910-1921
Lodge:   Rondebosch Lodge
Lodge Location:   Rondebosch, South Africa, WD
Lodge Number:   3141
Folio Number:   146
Excluded 31.12.13
details from England, United Grand Lodge of England Freemason Membership Registers, 1751-1921 on Anc*y


Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Saturday 18 November 17 11:35 GMT (UK)
Oh, no - that's new too, thanks Ladyhawk! So he was a Freemason. So it's true what they say about coppers and Freemasons, eh?! 🙂
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 18 November 17 11:44 GMT (UK)
Quote
Albert Edward Cock born 5th October 1871

Just by way of confirmation that we have the right man - "Cornish Immigrants to South Africa" records the same birth date for Albert Edward Cock-Collins https://goo.gl/3sGj9w

Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Sunday 19 November 17 03:08 GMT (UK)
Just by way of confirmation that we have the right man - "Cornish Immigrants to South Africa" records the same birth date for Albert Edward Cock-Collins https://goo.gl/3sGj9w

Ah - excellent - another good find, thanks, Shaun! (I think the forum could do with a Like button so I don't have to keep bumping the thread when I want to thank people.)

Ladyhawk, did that Freemasons entry turn up on the usual search on An**try, or did you need to go digging? I'm just curious. I must go and check out my library's version again and see what that provides. I know that when I last consulted it (ages ago), it didn't give me what I was looking for; can't remember what it was though. Perhaps it's just the Australian version.

Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 19 November 17 11:44 GMT (UK)

Ladyhawk, did that Freemasons entry turn up on the usual search on An**try, or did you need to go digging?

I'm just curious.

Using UK Anc*y  search
First & middle names:-  Albert Edward
surname:-  Collins
Place your ancestor might have lived: South Africa
clicked search

First two entries at top of page were for England, United Grand Lodge of England Freemason Membership Registers, 1751-1921
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Wednesday 22 November 17 07:51 GMT (UK)
Ah, I see - thanks, Ladyhawk.

I am still eagerly awaiting the marriage certificate I ordered from GRO, but in the meantime started looking at another branch of Cock-Collinses I'm unfamiliar with, a more recent one.

Two of the sons of Albert Edward C-C were Albert Claud and Leslie William, and it is particularly Albert Claud that I'm interested in because according to records someone has built, there were 2 daughters of that marriage (none for Leslie). (I have heaps on other brothers. I have heaps on Cecil, and someone else has provided the basics for Edward, who died aged 21.)

I have found some header records of comings and goings on ships between Cape Town and Southampton in 1939, 1950, 1955 and some undated. Albert's wife was Nicoline, and Leslie's was Johanna. In one of the records there is a daughter travelling with Nicoline - my notes say "Pretoria Castle, sailing Southampton to Cape Town on 8th November 1955. Nicoline is aged 47, born 3rd July 1908, housewife, and daughter is 15, born 2nd August 1940, no occupation. (No record found for Albert.)"

Albert C and Nicoline both died in Cape Town; not sure about Leslie but I think they probably all lived in South Africa.

I don't really need all of the details of their travels, but if anyone else can dig up a reference to a daughter with a name, that would be great.

I also spotted a "Mr P.W. Cock-Collins" on the Anc**try passenger list - no idea who he is; perhaps a mistranscription for L.W.?

Edit: Also, ignore Lucy Magdalene and another other C-Cs - it's only really those two brothers' families that I'm concerned with here.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Wednesday 22 November 17 08:54 GMT (UK)
Quote
I also spotted a "Mr P.W. Cock-Collins" on the Anc**try passenger list - no idea who he is; perhaps a mistranscription for L.W.?

Yes that is L W
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Wednesday 22 November 17 09:17 GMT (UK)


I have found some header records of comings and goings on ships between Cape Town and Southampton in 1939, 1950, 1955 and some undated.

Albert's wife was Nicoline. In one of the records there is a daughter travelling with Nicoline - my notes say "Pretoria Castle

Nicoline is aged 47, born 3rd July 1908, housewife, and daughter is 15, born 2nd August 1940, no occupation. (No record found for Albert.)"

Albert C and Nicoline both died in Cape Town

I don't really need all of the details of their travels, but if anyone else can dig up a reference to a daughter with a name, that would be great.


Sorry haven't come up with a christian name but you are right 1955 sailing and ship name

Is it possible she is a twin as Miss Cock Collins is listed twice with same dob?

1955 Outward Passenger List
address in UK 34 Sussex Gdns W.2
Cock Collins   Mr A born    7/2/07 occ Railway
Ditto             Mrs             3/7/08
Ditto             Miss            2/8/40
Ditto             Miss            2/8/40

For info they married in 1937 Rondebosh, Peddie Cape Province SA
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-61PN-ZP?i=269&cc=1392488


Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Wednesday 22 November 17 12:16 GMT (UK)
Ah, great - thanks Shaun and Ladyhawk.

Yes, it's certainly possible that the daughters were/are twins - good to have those dates. Just no trace of them anywhere else! There's a suggestion that their names are Alison and Elizabeth, but no corroboration.

I found that marriage record (which is actually incorrect insofar as situating it in a place called Peddie - Rondebosch is actually a suburb of Cape Town, not far from the suburb of residence, Newlands) too, thanks.

It's quite likely that this as far as I'll get, with relatively recent people, who may still be alive, and it's not that important.

Edit: I also found that someone had added a record for the husband of Elizabeth, a Mark Annandale (no other details) - but no luck searching on that surname either. I won't bother pursuing that branch any more.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Monday 27 November 17 11:26 GMT (UK)
I don't think that we've covered this one yet? :-\
Does anyone have any further details on a passenger record, leaving UK in 1904, for the Cape, for Collins, AE,  DOB 1872?
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 27 November 17 12:01 GMT (UK)
A E Collins and his family were passengers on the Dunluce Castle departed Southampton for South Africa on 15 October 1904. He was in the Cape Police. With him were Mrs Collins aged 28, and 3 female children respectively aged 2, 1 and less than 1 year. To land at Cape Town.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Monday 27 November 17 12:31 GMT (UK)
Oh, fantastic, thanks Shaun.  :) They got the sex of the children wrong (should be all boys), but that's our Albert returning after the birth of Cecil in West Ham.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 27 November 17 14:27 GMT (UK)
Just linking to the 1915 death notice. I think you have the information already https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-95DR-SHJB?i=68&cc=1779109
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Thursday 07 December 17 03:26 GMT (UK)
Yes, thanks Shaun - I did already have that one, and now have a heap more documents relating to Albert that I still need to finish sorting and writing up, obtained via that person on the Anglo-Boer War site. (I have been temporarily diverted to Scotland on another branch, but will return to finish AEC-C next.)

The reason I am reporting back today on this thread, though, is that the marriage certificate for James Cock-Emily Woollcott that I'd ordered from GRO weeks ago has finally arrived, and fortunately does confirm that James Cock Jr is the son of James Cock the builder.

The actual marriage certificate (certified copy) shows James, bachelor, 29, railway clerk, of 5 Barnsbury Square, son of James Cock, builder, and Emily Woollcott, spinster, 18, of 5 Richmond Terrace, daughter of William Thomas Woollcott, actuary, married in the Register Office in Islington on 8 Nov 1862. Witnesses are Benjamin Stokes May and Esther Ann May (which, oddly, doesn't tally with the FS record of the wedding registration https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DVC-MVW, but who knows why?).

Daughter Emily Kate's birth is later shown as Barnsbury, which must be the address given above.

So - I cannot now locate the post in the other thread in which Shaun reports that someone else's tree showed James as son of William (see replies 50-51 in this thread), but I now have confirmation that I am correct and they are wrong.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 07 December 17 09:01 GMT (UK)
Glad that's sorted out!

That familysearch marriage record does not include witnesses, just the names of the 4 people on page 460 of volume 1B of the marriage register for Q4 1862. This information is taken from the GRO marriage index.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 07 December 17 09:03 GMT (UK)

The actual marriage certificate (certified copy) shows

James, bachelor, 29, railway clerk, of 5 Barnsbury Square, son of James Cock, builder

Emily Woollcott, spinster, 18, of 5 Richmond Terrace, daughter of , William Thomas Woollcott married in the Register Office in Islington on 8 Nov 1862.

Witnesses are Benjamin Stokes May and Esther Ann May

Daughter Emily Kate's birth is later shown as Barnsbury, which must be the address given above.


Thank you for giving an update and details of the marriage cert.

for info. have quoted the baptism records at the start of this thread showing address

Quote
Emily Kate Jane Cock
Baptism 1 Jun 1864 St Mary Islington born 4th May
James Cock occ clerk
Emily abode Barnsbury St

Frederick William Cock
Baptism 22 Apr 1866 St Mary Islington born 26 Mar
James Cock occ Railway ial?
Emily abode Barnsbury St.


Edit

Emily Woollcott born 28th May 1844 Baptism 8 Sep 1844 Clerkenwell St James, Islington,
parents William Thomas Woollcott occ Officer’s Clerk, Catharine Ann, 4 Roseman St

Emily Woollcott mmn  BOULTON  1844  Jun Quarter Saint James' Clerkenwell 

witness Benjamin Stokes May possibly married Catherine Ann Woollcott Emily's mother - you would need to verify, Mar 1858 Islington Volume:   1b   Page:   278

1861c RG 9; Piece: 126; Folio: 131; Page: 14
25 Cloudsley Sq Islington
Benjamin S May           39 Clerkenwell General Merchant
Catherine A May   38 Clerkenwell



Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: Millmoor on Thursday 07 December 17 09:57 GMT (UK)
Just to add to Ladyhawk's findings

Death for Benjamin Stokes May in Nov1864

Marriage 31 May 1869 in Paddington

James James 70 widower
Catherine Ann May 46 widow - father named as George Boulton.

William
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Thursday 07 December 17 10:10 GMT (UK)
Oh, great, thanks all!

I also found a census record for Benjamin Stokes in Cloudsley Square, 1861 (which is very close to Barnsbury and Richmond) and I think a birth record, which I will dig up again. And also found one definite baptism record for a sibling to Catherine Ann (George John) and a marriage for him, but nothing definite for the mother, Mary, as yet. (A few other possible siblings but baptised in a different church so not adding them at this point.)

Nice to be able to build the Stokes connection though! (No peace for the wicked, eh?)

Edit: Of course, I now realise that the 1861 record mentioned by Ladyhawk above is the Census record I saw earlier. I just didn't pay enough attention to the others listed on the record! I will follow this up - it seems likely.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 07 December 17 10:40 GMT (UK)
Looks like Benjamin Stokes May had some Dutch ancestry https://www.genealogieonline.nl/parenteel-naudin/I320.php
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Thursday 07 December 17 11:02 GMT (UK)
Looks like Benjamin Stokes May had some Dutch ancestry https://www.genealogieonline.nl/parenteel-naudin/I320.php

Oh, that's interesting - thanks, Shaun!

I've just managed to finish building Catherine's 3 marriages, and found her probable death record:
JAMES, CATHERINE ANN (age) 60 GRO Reference: 1877 D Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 216
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2J2Y-99Y)

- And that is enough for tonight! (But I will return tomorrow just to add Benjamin's parents. Guillaume sounds French. But I won't go too crazy there, seeing as he's not in the bloodline. I need to get back to those Scots on the other side, and also finish with AEC-C!)
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 07 December 17 11:36 GMT (UK)
It seems that Benjamin Stokes May's maternal grandparents were Huguenots whose families fled France after the Edict of Fontainebleau in 1685.
Title: Re: Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?
Post by: lucymags on Thursday 07 December 17 11:48 GMT (UK)
It seems that Benjamin Stokes May's maternal grandparents were Huguenots whose families fled France after the Edict of Fontainebleau in 1685.

Ah, interesting - I've just found my way to the Dutch version of their story. I'll have another dig tomorrow. I've already done a bit of reading on the topic after coming across another Huguenot ancestor who went to Knowle in Warwickshire, was married and widowed twice there, then down to London where he married a much younger woman who was also a French Huguenot. There were several of their churches in London at the time, and at least one is still in existence.