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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: Iria on Monday 23 October 17 12:13 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone
I was Wondering if Someone could help
I have a Elizabeth Emma Bold bapt 1818 Liverpool St Nicholas Dau of John Bold Watch Jeweller and Hannah Manchester .. as far as I can see John and Hannah Went to South Africa as one of the 1820 Settlers . I have seen on a Lot of Family trees that Elizabeth Emma died as a Infant in South Africa in 1820 .. But this is where my Mystery Begins ..
I Have a Elizabeth Emma Bold b 1818 Dau of John Bold watch maker marrying a John Harold in 1844 Liverpool Elizabeth Harold nee Bold then Dies in Liverpool in 1860
Could these two Elizabeth Emma Bolds be the same Person and she returned to England with some of Her Siblings and Didn't die in South Africa in 1820
Any Help would be greatly Received
Regards
Iria
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The marriage entry shows Elizabeth Emma's father as John Southward Bold.
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Hi Bumble
Thank you for the Reply
John Southward Bold Married Ann/Hannah Manchester these are the Parents of Elizabeth Emma Bold that went to South Africa as Settlers in 1820 .. Just trying to find out if Elizabeth Emma Bold did die in South Africa in 1820 or came back to Liverpool with her Siblings One included is Martha Bold who married William Byrom in Liverpool .. Martha and Elizabeth Lived together in Cazanu Street in 1841 Liverpool both noted as Shop Owner
Regards
Iria
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I think you are possibly correct in that assumption. I can see Martha and her family in 1851 - HO 107/2192 folio 1038 page 48. And I've just put in an amendment to FreeBMD for William Byrom's marriage entry - he is transcribed as Byron and a fuzzy page number. Martha appears on page 708 under December 1841 - West Derby. Two children appear on the 1851 census entry and both have the mother's maiden name of Bold.
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Hi Bumble
Thankyou for your reply ..
For quite a while its been worrying me that I had the Wrong Elizabeth Emma Bold .but it now does look like she returned home after her Father lost most of his Money in South Africa ,its quite sad Really ,,
Elizabeth Emma is my 3x Great Grandmother
Regards
Iria
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If she is your 3 x great grandmother, then you have obviously already traced back to her :-\
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Hi Bumble
Yes I have traced her but many sites have had a Elizabeth Emma Bold born 1818 dying in South Africa in 1820 Parents being noted as the Same John Southward Bold and Hannah Manchester .. the Settles 1820 have her Marrying a Henry Webb in 1848 .. But how can it be when its my Elizabeth Emma Bold ?
Sorry for the Confusion Just Needed some help Clarifying it
Regards
Iria
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Hi,
There seems to be some confusion as to Elizabeth's death. In a note attached to the 1820 Settler site it indicates that the Elizabeth that you have marrying is in fact the granddaughter and the daughter of Peter Bold, John and Hannah's son. It says that Elizabeth may have died even before the ship landed. Not unsual for families to have cousins with the same names.
http://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I59046&tree=master#cite2
Under the map you will see the note as well as source citations if you click on the numbers it will take you to separate web pages listing the Bold lineage.
Hope this helps
3SD
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Still very confusing, isn't it?
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It is.
This is Elizabeth Emma that they refer to:
http://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I59260&tree=master
The 1820 Settler histories have been fairly well documented, so it is more than likely it was the grand daughter of John and Hannah
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Two children then, named Elizabeth Emma Bold.
1: Elizabeth Emma, daughter of John (Watchmaker) and Hannah - baptised 31 May 1818 in Liverpool. Detailed on the 1820 Settlers' passenger list as Elizabeth, born 1817.
http://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/settlersearch.php?mylastname=BOLD
Said to have died in 1820, Algoa Bay. Not listed with the family returning to UK in 1822.
BUT Elizabeth Emma Bold, daughter of John Southward Bold (Watchmaker - deceased) marries John Harold in Liverpool in 1844.
2: Elizabeth Emma, daughter of Peter and Maria - born 1828 in Albany District of Grahamstown.
She marries Henry James Webb in 1848 in Grahamstown.
Just as a matter of interest, 3SD, is there a list of the Bold family returning to England in 1822?
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They may be on a passenger list, but don't have access to those.
BUT Elizabeth Emma Bold, daughter of John Southward Bold (Watchmaker - deceased) marries John Harold in Liverpool in 1844.
Just as a matter of interest, 3SD, is there a list of the Bold family returning to England in 1822?
This is the one that the research notes suggest should have been John Southward's granddaughter and daughter of his son, not John Southward's daughter.
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BUT Elizabeth Emma, daughter of Peter isn't born until 1828 :-\ and she is well documented in SA.
I've also just noticed something else that I find a bit strange. 1820 passenger list does not include Hannah, the mother. :o
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Hi Everyone
Thankyou For the Replys
The Elizabeth Emma Bold that I have is the Daughter of John Southward Bold and Hannah not Peter Bold and Marie Hayhurst
I have her Bapt and Marriage Certs I have attached them to here .. So this means that it is Possible that Elizabeth Emma Bold did not Travel to South Africa with the Rest of the Family in 1820 ?
I also have her Sister Martha Bapt and Marriage Certs Martha Did return to Liverpool from South Africa ..Martha and Elizabeth where living with each other in 1841 Liverpool
Regards Iria
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I did Find a Hannah Bold Living at 15 Christian Street Liverpool in 1834 a Year this is the same Street Martha and Elizabeth Bold Lived in 1841 Could this be there Mother who I have Dying in 1835 ?
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Would they have possibly left a child of about 3 behind when the rest of the family left??
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On the Gedcom attached on the 1820 site, they have an Elizabeth Bold and an Elizabeth Emma Bold.
The notation against Elizabeth Bold suggests she died before the ship landed according to notes by John Daniel Bold then Elizabeth Emma is the one who goes on to marry Webb
This is the Bold Gedcom in the East London Museum
http://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/showsource.php?sourceID=S392&tree=master
This is going to make your head spin ;D ;D
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Don't know if you have visited this site on Geni, but if not it may be of interest
https://www.geni.com/projects/1820-Settlers-Hayhurst-s-Party/10023
I have found this site helpful in the past with some of mine to fill in the blanks.
On this return, Hannah is listed with John
https://www.eggsa.org/1820-settlers/index.php/settler-returns/1936-hayhurst-s-party
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It Could of Been Possible Elizabeth could of Been ill the Bold and Manchester familys where Quite Large Familys so could of been left with them ? and if she did travel she didn't die in 1820 South Africa
The only thing I can say is that the Settlers Website is Wrong about Elizabeth Emma Bold Dying .. and that she did return with her Siblings and Mother Hannah
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And yet on this list of settlers Elizabeth is not listed amongst the family of John and Hannah, but with Peter Bold and M. Hudson. Is it possible this is where the confusion comes in??
http://www.archive.org/stream/britishsouthafri00camp#page/146/mode/2up
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So It is Still Possible that My Elizabeth Emma is left at home ?
The Elizabeth that dies in 1820 is Peter Bolds Daughter and then he goes on to have another daughter called Elizabeth in 1828
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Thankyou For this 3sillydogs its a great help
and thankyou everyone for your replys
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You're welcome. ;)
I think that would be the most likely scenario. Peter's Elizabeth may have died aboard ship, she was only just over a year old and possibly incorrectly recorded. If she died at sea, as suggested on the 1820 site, she would likely have been buried at sea and it may have been incorrectly recorded in the ship's log.
Wonder if those are still available somewhere???
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thankyou 3sillydogs and Everyone
I think I will Leave this now as I don't think I will find Elizabeth Emma before 1831 I know she appears in 1841 Liverpool .. Its so sad what happened to her Father and how our Government let him down when he begged for help ..he died in 1829 South Africa .Still Unsure if his Wife Hannah came home with some of the Children that needs to be Looked into .
Regards and Thankyou again
Iria
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Just as a last snippet. Found this on our archives:
Albany Museum (1820)
TYPE Photo
REFERENCE SMP769
DESCRIPTION Bold, Mrs. John (nee Hannah Manchester), 1774? - ?; 1820
settler; wife of John Southward Bold. Studio; H & S;
profile.
STARTING 0000
ENDING 0000
REMARKS 12,5 x 8,2 cm.; photoprint of original sketch in possession
of family.
Seems there is a photograph of Hannah in the Albany Museum which is in Grahamstown, or rather a photo of a sketch of Hannah.
If you would like to contact the museum here is their email address:
Email: info@am.org.za
This may also be of interest in your search:
http://www.am.org.za/collections/genealogy
It also seems that John did indeed have legal problems, there is a civil litigation file for him in the archives in Cape Town.
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I think that sketch appears on a number of trees on Ancestry - no indication of source.
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Many Thanks to all for all Your Help
I will Contact the Albany Museum to see if thay can help me with any more details on John and Hannah
I have corrected a few things on the 1820 Settlers Website to ..
Many thanks again
and Regards
Iria