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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: jess5athome on Monday 23 October 17 12:48 BST (UK)
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Hi, could anyone tell me what the shoulder patch is on the shoulder of this gentleman please, I note that his wife is wearing a sweetheart badge to the Royal Sussex Regiment? and he has a Special Proficiency patch on his arm and what looks like 2 chevrons but the patch is proving hard to pin down.
Many thanks in anticipation of any kind replies and as always my very best regards.
Frank.
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Frank - this is very tentative but my eye is drawn both to his lanyard and to the arm of service stripe below the formation patch.
The lanyard is as worn by the Royal Artillery (and others I know but bear with me!). The arm of service stripe is two coloured which could be red/blue of Royal Artillery, in any event it is not infantry as the two infantry stripes were mono coloured.
He has no regiment title on the shoulder. Today's flight of fancy, with a willingness to be shot down, is that he is in 109 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment (Royal Sussex) formed in Jan 42 (or 41??) from 7 Royal Sussex.
Like you, I find no formation patch that fits though!
Please feel free to ignore totally.
MaxD
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Hi MaxD many thanks for the reply, it's a puzzle, I had thought that it may have been a chap by the name of William Pearson Kitchen, (see thread here from 2012:)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=627103.msg4751173#msg4751173
However, the Royal Sussex was never mentioned by his widow or indeed William himself when alive yet his first wife is wearing the sweetheart badge.
I need to see if I can drag his records out, I'm sure his later wife let me borrow them, perhaps they may hold a clue.
Frank.
Ps, I wouldn't ignore anything you post ;)
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Around the time of The Great War the RA lanyard was moved to the right shoulder. This was to make it easier to get to the knife attached to it as a bandolier was also worn over the left shoulder. Another reason, if i'm to believe my old BSM, was to keep the lanyard clean when sloping arms during rifle drills.
davie
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Must check I have the requisite number of marbles!
Davie is of course quite correct about the right shoulder (it may be of interest that the Royal Artillery hierarchy have never been able to find the specific dress regulation change that authorised the swap and as recently as two months ago the Regimental Colonel launched another investigation into the subject).
Would it be fruitful to chase regiments (and thence formations) that didn't wear a cloth title around the top of the shoulder and a right lanyard?? Ignoring infantry by virtue of the arm of service stripe?
MaxD
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Hi, many thanks to you both for he continued input.
Davie, many thanks for the information on the lanyard, regarding the changing over to the other shoulder I know that it has always been a topic of debate among military circles.
MaxD, I think you are correct regarding searching regiments and then formation's, the more I look at the photograph the more I am convinced the man is William Pearson Kitchen so will try the KOSB first.
Best regards always
Frank.
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Hi, I had a tentative look at the service record of William Pearson Kitchen, (The chap who I am convinced is the man in the photograph).
William was in the Kings own Scottish Borderers but during the Second World War was also attached to the Gordon Highlander's and also the Royal West African Frontier Force, I am going to search using those regiments as a starting point and see if I can come up with anything, however I have to say after looking earlier today I don't hold out much hope ::)
Frank.
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Today's thought. Scottish Command Troops.
MaxD
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Good afternoon,
Frank, you didn't seem at all certain of his identity at first but think it is William Kitchen.
You have mentioned 3 infantry units but as MaxD pointed out, the arm of service stripe excludes infantry.
Is it possible that he is William's B i L and we are looking at brother and sister. Just a thought.
What was wifes maiden name, that would give us another line of inquiry.
John915
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Hi, many thanks for the continued input to the thread, it is greatly appreciated.
Thank you MaxD for the Scottish Command Troops.
John915, thank you for the idea of Williams B i L, that hadn't occurred to me ::) several photographs that I have all feature the family of Williams wife, she was Freda Crowcroft prior to marriage.
Onwards and upwards as they say ;D
Frank.
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Good morning :)
After continually searching around and also looking on a Facebook group I am a member of, I think I have an answer, I think what we can see is a part of the formation patch for the "9th Armoured Division" this seems to have been a unit for training or experimenting with specialised armour, this would also tie in with the fact that William used to talk of training men and "Special" work he did.
What do you think?
Frank.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_Armoured_Division_(United_Kingdom)
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Not beyond the bounds of possibility - pic attached. Now need a unit within the division that wore a left arm lanyard and no cloth upper arm regimental title. None found so far!
Maxd
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Hi MaxD, Thanks for the reply, I'm going to look at his service record later, (Grandad duties at the moment) and see if it holds any clues, William, (Major William Pearson Kitchen at his death) was always sketchy when talking about his career, he used to start talking about things then say "Oh, I can't tell you any more" and give a wink, I remember he always said he taught people at one time or another during his career in the Army and even said after the war he was involved in "Stuff" he couldn't talk about.
Best regards always
Frank.