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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: HermitCedar on Tuesday 24 October 17 21:23 BST (UK)
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**if you think this would belong better in the general board, then please let me know!**
Hello, everyone! I am digging down deeper into my Scottish roots and I find I need some help - I am currently stuck.
To start off basic...
I have a relative named Margaret Muir, who was born in Wigtownshire on April 9th, 1820. When I found that parish birth record, I saw that her parents were listed: Robert Muir and Catherine MacLean.
That's where I'm stuck.
I can't find a single thing at all on this Robert Muir, nor can I find anything on Catherine MacLean (this is the side I am interested in, in particular), other than this confusing detail...
I found a Catherin Mclean (not Maclean, as the birth cert said) who married a Robert Muir in Glasgow on 18 May 1828. This, at first, seems like it would be paydirt: the names are close enough and they match in a similar/ish area to Wigtownshire, but they were married in 1828 and their daughter Margaret was born in 1820... would this be considered odd for the time period? Again, I don't know for sure if it's MacLean or Mclean.
Now, even if we take this marriage as correct, I still cannot find a single thing further.
Does anyone have any insight or help they would be willing to lend? It would mean a lot - I've been stuck here for a couple weeks!
Thank you!
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I have a relative named Margaret Muir, who was born in Wigtownshire on April 9th, 1820. When I found that parish birth record, I saw that her parents were listed: Robert Muir and Catherine MacLean.
From FS
Name Margaret Muir
Gender Female
Christening Date 18 Apr 1820
Christening Place , LESWALT, WIGTOWN, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 09 Apr 1820
Father's Name Robert Muir
Mother's Name Catherine Maclean
Do the parents correspond with info on her death cert - presuming she died after 1855?
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Do the parents correspond with info on her death cert - presuming she died after 1855?
[/quote]
Hey CaroleW, thanks for getting back to me!
And, sadly, I do not have a death cert for Margaret. I do know that she Married John Wilson in Wigtown in 1843, though! So she at least lived until 1843.
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Have you looked for her on any of the censuses to establish if she was still alive post 1855?
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Have you looked for her on any of the censuses to establish if she was still alive post 1855?
I have tried and I have not - I have never been able to find her on a census. It was tricky to link her to her children without being able to do so.
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If you haven't found her on a census - how do you know she was born in Wigtown 1820?
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If you haven't found her on a census - how do you know she was born in Wigtown 1820?
From a parish baptism record.
I had to trace her name back through locations on parish records and names... I suppose I could try doing that again to find out where she last lived to see if there's a death in the same location... that could provide the parents names.
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If you haven't found her on a census - how do you know she was born in Wigtown 1820?
From a parish baptism record.
I had to trace her name back through locations on parish records and names... I suppose I could try doing that again to find out where she last lived to see if there's a death in the same location... that could provide the parents names.
The only death for a Margaret Muir I found on Scotland's People is for a different one, so this is a no go so far.
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Apart from her name and her marriage in 1843 - you don't appear to have any other information about her that would link her to the baptism in 1820. Are you just assuming this is the right person?
There is no census record confirming she was born in Wigtown or showing her birthyear as 1820. Marrying there does not necessarily mean she was born there.
Unless you have other info - it would be unwise to make assumptions based on the FS record.
Who were her children and when and where were they born?
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Just searched the 1851 for Wilson children born 1843-1851 Wigtown parents John & Margaret
The only one I found had eldest child 8 so fits an 1843 marriage but Margaret was b 1811 Ayrshire and records show her maiden name was Brown
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Just searched the 1851 for Wilson children born 1843-1851 Wigtown parents John & Margaret
The only one I found had eldest child 8 so fits an 1843 marriage but Margaret was b 1811 Ayrshire
I'm so sorry - I don't understand what you mean here?
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What I'm saying is that there is no 1851 census entry for a John & Margaret Wilson living in Wigtown where Margaret is born 1820 Wigtown.
From the info you have given - there is nothing to support she was born 1820 Wigtown so I cannot understand how you have linked her to that birth on Family Search
Who were her children and when and where were they born?
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Apart from her name and her marriage in 1843 - you don't appear to have any other information about her that would link her to the baptism in 1820. Are you just assuming this is the right person?
There is no census record confirming she was born in Wigtown or showing her birthyear as 1820. Marrying there does not necessarily mean she was born there.
Unless you have other info - it would be unwise to make assumptions based on the FS record.
Who were her children and when and where were they born?
Honestly, I didn't think I did that, I usually don't, but I just tried to look back and confirm how I got there. I know I had some hint or clue, maybe I marked it as a place holder.
Anyway, I know for a fact that Margaret Muir had children with John Wilson and had James Wilson as a son. I also believe that there was a daughter named Margaret. James, though, was born March 6th, 1843 in Wigtown.
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I do know that she Married John Wilson in Wigtown in 1843, though! So she at least lived until 1843.
Scotlands People have no marriage listed in 1843 and there is no marriage listed for this couple between 1830 and 1843
Family Search
There is a birth for James Wilson on 6.3.1843 baptism 20/3 parents John Wilson & Margaret Muir registered Old Luce or Glenluce parish
There is a Margaret Muir Wilson birth 5.5.1845 baptism 12/5 to same parents and same parish
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If you haven't found her on a census - how do you know she was born in Wigtown 1820?
From a parish baptism record.
I had to trace her name back through locations on parish records and names... I suppose I could try doing that again to find out where she last lived to see if there's a death in the same location... that could provide the parents names.
Are you making assumptions? Unless you have some definite evidence to link your MM with this one born in Wigtownshire, it's not safe to assume that she is the right one.
As for spelling, there is no 'right' way to spell a name before about 1900. Spelling was at the whim of whoever was writing the name down.
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Scotlands People have no marriage listed in 1843 and there is no marriage listed for this couple between 1830 and 1843.[/quote]
Hello, I couldn't find the marriage record on SP either, but I found this in a google search when looking for their names.
http://news.rootsweb.com/th/read/SCT-WIGTOWNSHIRE/2003-08/1061146182
Family Search
I took this as fact/a transcription that may have not made it into safe keeping and was since lost.
Also, those dates for James and Margaret, the children, are the same things that I have.
So, anyway, James Wilson, the child, is my first concrete link that I have. From there, and from finding his name along with his children's name's on censuses (remember, I am building the tree up so I know who everyone is from present day until this particular James Wilson), I discovered that his wife's name was Mary. I did some digging, and I thought I found the right marriage cert, which listed her maiden name as Bann. This makes sense/I consider this confirmed because on one of the censuses there is a live-in relative with the surname of Bann. DO keep in mind that on these censuses, and I have one for every decade for James, that they never list his birth town, they only write "Scotland" so I had to get creative to find a starting point.
Okay, so we call this fact.
Now we need to see who this James Wilson's parents are. Now, again, I know that James Wilson was married to Mary Bann, so I found their wedding cert. James's father is listed as John Wilson on that document.
So, I did a large scoped general search for James Wilsons born to John Wilsons, in relevant years, and there were only 33 results.
So, I guess technically, I need to determine who exactly this James Wilson's mother is to be entirely sure I am on the right track.
That being said, I saw a family tree premade on ancestry and he was listed as James Muir Wilson. So I added Muir to the search on Scot's People, and there was only 1 other result, James Wilson, born to John Wilson and Margaret Muir.
I had to dig through my notes to remember I arrived at this conclusion. So, yes, it is a bit of a stretch.... So you are definitely right. I need to prove Margaret Muir is the mother somehow before I can continue... I just don't know how.
If I was correct, I will be in the same situation as before with the Mclean thing, or I will have to start again.
Do you have any thoughts on how to move forward? You seem really well versed in all of this and I really value your help/input!!
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Now, again, I know that James Wilson was married to Mary Bann, so I found their wedding cert. James's father is listed as John Wilson on that document.
Marriage 1868 Liverpool - not Scotland. Father's occ was "agent"
Sorry - but your method of researching James is unsafe to say the least.
I discovered that his wife's name was Mary. I did some digging, and I thought I found the right marriage cert, which listed her maiden name as Bann.
Are you saying this was also guesswork rather than fact?
Which of James children are you descended from? It's usual to find a birth registration for that child and confirm the mothers maiden name before looking for a parental marriage. Particularly as Wilson is rather a common surname in England.
You have absolutely no proof that James was born in Wigtown. There is an 1871 entry for a James & Mary Wilson - James b 1843 Scotland and living in Liverpool. He has a 14yr old brother David Wilson b Wakefield Yorkshire living with him and he also has children born before 1868 so a different marriage
GRO online search show David's mothers maiden name was Ferguson
Births March qtr 1856
David Wilson Wakefield 9c 21
1881 shows the first Wilson/Bann child was Sarah b 1872 but 1871 has a James aged 2
So we have 2 James Wilson's both born Scotland 1843/44 and both married to a Mary and living in Liverpool. Which one are you descended from?
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Also see this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=779757.0
I'd think I'd investigate the link to the McCormacks just in case :
Hi folks,
Interestingly on the 1851 Census at Inch, Wigtownshire -
the address Gennoch Cothouse
William McCormack Head 59 Tailor born Wigtownshire, Inch
Mary McCormack Wife 60 Engaged in domestic duties born Wigtownshire, Stoneykirk
Margaret McCormack Dau 27 Cotton Flourer born " , Inch
Jean McCormack Dau 15 Cotton Flourer born " . Inch
James Wilson Nephew 7 Scholar born " , Leswalt
Could this be James Muir Wilson? Odd that it's a boy of right name & age living at that address . Wonder where his parents are ?
Looby :)
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http://news.rootsweb.com/th/read/SCT-WIGTOWNSHIRE/2003-08/1061146182
Family Search
That does look OK. I take it that WFP is 'Wigtown Free Press' and that this list is from someone who has helpfully transcribed the births, marriages and deaths from one or more issues of that paper. Ideally you want to check it by having a look at an image of the original page.
Having said that, I note that the transcriptions are from the issue of 9 February 1843, and that this one reads, "At Genoch, parish of Old Luce, on the 17th instant, by the Rev. Mr M'Dowall, Mr John Wilson to Miss Margaret Muir.".
This rings alarm bells because 'inst' means 'this month' and the 17th February had not yet happened by the 9th February. If it was 17th January it should have been 'ult'.
Also it names them as 'Mr' and 'Miss'. The use of the titles, and publication in the newspaper, implies that they were people of some standing in the community. Yet the date of baptism of their son James was 20th March - just six weeks after the wedding announcement.
Why would someone of standing in the community announce to the whole world and posterity the evidence that the bride was heavily pregnant at the time of her wedding? It's the sort of thing people would normally have tried to hush up in those days.
Also, those dates for James and Margaret, the children, are the same things that I have.
Yes, they are from SP so are reliable.
Do you have any thoughts on how to move forward? You seem really well versed in all of this and I really value your help/input!!
I do think you seem to have made quite a lot of assumptions from known to presumed information.
That being said, I saw a family tree premade on ancestry and he was listed as James Muir Wilson.
Never, ever, trust anything you find online unless it's an image of an original document. Especially pre-made trees uploaded to Ancestry and similar sites. You have no idea how meticulous or how sloppy the research behind those trees is. By all means use them as pointers, but don't assume thay are accurate, because very often they are not.
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Now, again, I know that James Wilson was married to Mary Bann, so I found their wedding cert. James's father is listed as John Wilson on that document.
Marriage 1868 Liverpool - not Scotland. Father's occ was "agent"
Sorry - but your method of researching James is unsafe to say the least.
I discovered that his wife's name was Mary. I did some digging, and I thought I found the right marriage cert, which listed her maiden name as Bann.
Are you saying this was also guesswork rather than fact?
Which of James children are you descended from? It's usual to find a birth registration for that child and confirm the mothers maiden name before looking for a parental marriage. Particularly as Wilson is rather a common surname in England.
You have absolutely no proof that James was born in Wigtown. There is an 1871 entry for a James & Mary Wilson - James b 1843 Scotland and living in Liverpool. He has a 14yr old brother David Wilson b Wakefield Yorkshire living with him and he also has children born before 1868 so a different marriage
GRO online search show David's mothers maiden name was Ferguson
Births March qtr 1856
David Wilson Wakefield 9c 21
1881 shows the first Wilson/Bann child was Sarah b 1872 but 1871 has a James aged 2
So we have 2 James Wilson's both born Scotland 1843/44 and both married to a Mary and living in Liverpool. Which one are you descended from?
Hi again! Thank you for bearing with me - this is the first time I've taken my tree back this far so it's hard for me and I don't know how/what to consider as fact.
Okay, so... the James Wilson, whichever one it is, had a son named Thomas Wilson. Thomas Wilson is my great-great grandfather. Thomas Wilson had a son named James J Wilson (my great grandfather)...
I found on James J Wilson's wedding cert that his father was Thomas Wilson, so I searched for a James J Wilson born on the right date to a Thomas Wilson in Liverpool (Where I know him to be from) and there was only one.
Then, on Thomas Wilson's wedding cert, I saw that this father's name is James Wilson (the one we are talking about above, the one I thought was born in Wigtown).
So, I searched through the censuses until I found a Thomas Wilson born in Liverpool to a James Wilson, and I only found one relevant with dates. That is in the 1881 England Census, which shows a Thomas A Wilson of the right age, born to James Wilson who was born in Scotland.
So, that's how I got to where I am.
I do apologize if my methods aren't up to snuff - still new at this! Thanks so much for the help!
Out of the 2 James that we are looking at, I don't know how to figure out which one I am related to. Both are James and Mary Wilson, with a son Thomas Wilson. One is just listed as born in Scotland, and one is listed as born in Glasgow. This is for the 1881 England Census of folks living in Liverpool.
The difference between the 2 James and Mary Wilson families....
One has Thomas Wilson and one has Thomas A Wilson.
I have NO IDEA how to figure out which one I should go with.
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http://news.rootsweb.com/th/read/SCT-WIGTOWNSHIRE/2003-08/1061146182
Family Search
That does look OK. I take it that WFP is 'Wigtown Free Press' and that this list is from someone who has helpfully transcribed the births, marriages and deaths from one or more issues of that paper. Ideally you want to check it by having a look at an image of the original page.
Having said that, I note that the transcriptions are from the issue of 9 February 1843, and that this one reads, "At Genoch, parish of Old Luce, on the 17th instant, by the Rev. Mr M'Dowall, Mr John Wilson to Miss Margaret Muir.".
This rings alarm bells because 'inst' means 'this month' and the 17th February had not yet happened by the 9th February. If it was 17th January it should have been 'ult'.
Also it names them as 'Mr' and 'Miss'. The use of the titles, and publication in the newspaper, implies that they were people of some standing in the community. Yet the date of baptism of their son James was 20th March - just six weeks after the wedding announcement.
Why would someone of standing in the community announce to the whole world and posterity the evidence that the bride was heavily pregnant at the time of her wedding? It's the sort of thing people would normally have tried to hush up in those days.
Also, those dates for James and Margaret, the children, are the same things that I have.
Yes, they are from SP so are reliable.
Do you have any thoughts on how to move forward? You seem really well versed in all of this and I really value your help/input!!
I do think you seem to have made quite a lot of assumptions from known to presumed information.
That being said, I saw a family tree premade on ancestry and he was listed as James Muir Wilson.
Never, ever, trust anything you find online unless it's an image of an original document. Especially pre-made trees uploaded to Ancestry and similar sites. You have no idea how meticulous or how sloppy the research behind those trees is. By all means use them as pointers, but don't assume thay are accurate, because very often they are not.
I am completely stuck on how to move forward - I guess I may not know enough about Genealogy to really be able to do this correctly. Urgh.
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I have NO IDEA AT ALL how to figure out which James Wilson it is. At least there are only 2 to pick from. Does anyone have any ideas I can use to narrow down my selection?
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Let's start with James J Wilson. Where and when did he marry, how old did the marriage certificate say he was, and what was the name of his wife? What was the occupation of his father Thomas Wilson?
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Let's start with James J Wilson. Where and when did he marry, how old did the marriage certificate say he was, and what was the name of his wife? What was the occupation of his father Thomas Wilson?
Sure, thank you!
James J Wilson (James Joseph Wilson, I believe) was born on 17 Dec 1899 in Liverpool. He was married in 1918 in Lancashire to Margaret Florence Wearn (sometimes spelled Wearne). This wedding was performed at St Athanasius in Kirkdale, Liverpool.
I have a print of his marriage cert at home, so when I get back from the office I can check for his fathers profession. His father is, for sure, Thomas Wilson though. I can also check the age when I get home.
One thing to note - in a lot of sources it shows his birth year as 1900. It took me a bit to figure out this isn't true. He was born 17 Dec 1899, but was not registered until 1900.
Thank you for all of your help! I can add those details as soon as I get home.
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James Joseph Wilson born Dec 1899 has mother's maiden name James. There is a marriage in 1898 in West Derby between Thomas Wilson and Mary Jane James. Family in 1901 shows Thomas as a public House Manager age 27 born Liverpool with wife Mary and son James age 1. The baptism of James Joseph, son of Thomas and Mary, in 1900 gives his father's occupation as Waiter. There appear to be two other children of this couple - Frederick Alexander 1902 West Derby and Harold 1903 West Derby ( baptism says father Thomas was a Tobacconist.)Harold died in 1905. Both James Joseph and Frederick Alexander can be found in the last available census showing as stepsons of George and Jane Whitfield.
Are you confident that you link to the James Joseph Wilson born Dec 1899 died 1972 Liverpool?
Isobel
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From the 1939 register it would appear the 1899 James Joseph was married to a Bessie nee Jones. Perhaps this is not your James after all?
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I have found James Wilson and Margaret nee Wearn on the 1939 register and according to that he was born in 1888. Do you know for sure that this is the James that you are descended from?
Isobel
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From the 1939 register it would appear the 1899 James Joseph was married to a Bessie nee Jones. Perhaps this is not your James after all?
So.... I suppose that it is always possible, but I know for a fact that James Wilson married Margaret Florence Wearn, my grandmother told me and they were her parents, so I am guessing she knew their names, ha.... and I have their marriage certificate that lists James Wilson's father as Thomas Wilson.
I also know that James Wilson died in 1957 in Knowsley.
I'm second guessing my entire tree on this side of the family now... how does it appear 1899 James J Wilson is married to Bessie?
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I have found James Wilson and Margaret nee Wearn on the 1939 register and according to that he was born in 1888. Do you know for sure that this is the James that you are descended from?
Isobel
I know for a fact that James Wilson had my grandmother as a child with Margaret Florence Wearn. I am, for sure, descended from that couple. I do not see how it could be anyone else... when I get home I will confirm on my paper copy of their marriage certificate and let you know...
I don't see how she could be born in 1888, that seems awfully early... James was also a Merchant Marine so he was moving around a lot.
Sheesh... this is really depressing. I thought I had the family back a little bit, but apparently I don't/may not have the right James Wilson.
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James J Wilson (James Joseph Wilson, I believe)
Why do you think he was Joseph? Is his middle name not on his marriage certificate?
was married in 1918 in Lancashire to Margaret Florence Wearn (sometimes spelled Wearne)
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Looks as if they had
Agnes 1919
Margaret 1921
James 1923
Elizabeth 1925
Annie 1927
Susan M 1930
Sarah 1932
Martha 1937
Is that right? Which one is your grandparent?
One thing to note - in a lot of sources it shows his birth year as 1900. It took me a bit to figure out this isn't true. He was born 17 Dec 1899, but was not registered until 1900.
That's normal.
There was one James Joseph Wilson registered in the December quarter of 1899 in London, and two in the March quarter of 1900, of whom one was registered in West Derby (Liverpool), mother's maiden surname James.
There is also a Frederick Alexander Wilson, mother's surname James, registered in West Derby in the March quarter of 1902.
James Joseph Wilson, 11 and Frederick Alexander Wilson, 9, are in the 1911 census as the stepsons of George Whitfield. He also has a wife Jane, and daughters Margaret Hilda, 4; Clara Elizabeth, 2 and Elsie, 2 months.
Margaret Hilda Whitfield was registered in West Derby in the March quarter of 1907, Clara Elizabeth in the March quarter of 1909, and Elsie in the March quarter of 1911, mother's maiden surname James. So there is no doubt that Margaret Hilda, Clara Elizabeth and Elsie Whitfield are half-sisters of James Joseph and Frederick Alexander Wilson.
George Whitfield and Jane Ann Wilson were married in Pateley Bridge in the December quarter of 1904.
How does all that grab you? Any of it sound familiar?
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The 1899 one does not appear to be yours. He definitely died in 1972 in Liverpool. The 1888 James on the 1939 register was an Able Seaman so that sounds like it might fit. Margaret Florence Wearn was born in Prescot in 1894 and that matches with the 1939 register entry.
Isobel
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James J Wilson (James Joseph Wilson, I believe)
Why do you think he was Joseph? Is his middle name not on his marriage certificate?
was married in 1918 in Lancashire to Margaret Florence Wearn (sometimes spelled Wearne)
.
Looks as if they had
Agnes 1919
Margaret 1921
James 1923
Elizabeth 1925
Annie 1927
Susan M 1930
Sarah 1932
Martha 1937
Is that right? Which one is your grandparent?
One thing to note - in a lot of sources it shows his birth year as 1900. It took me a bit to figure out this isn't true. He was born 17 Dec 1899, but was not registered until 1900.
That's normal.
There was one James Joseph Wilson registered in the December quarter of 1899 in London, and two in the March quarter of 1900, of whom one was registered in West Derby (Liverpool), mother's maiden surname James.
There is also a Frederick Alexander Wilson, mother's surname James, registered in West Derby in the March quarter of 1902.
James Joseph Wilson, 11 and Frederick Alexander Wilson, 9, are in the 1911 census as the stepsons of George Whitfield. He also has a wife Jane, and daughters Margaret Hilda, 4; Clara Elizabeth, 2 and Elsie, 2 months.
Margaret Hilda Whitfield was registered in West Derby in the March quarter of 1907, Clara Elizabeth in the March quarter of 1909, and Elsie in the March quarter of 1911, mother's maiden surname James. So there is no doubt that Margaret Hilda, Clara Elizabeth and Elsie Whitfield are half-sisters of James Joseph and Frederick Alexander Wilson.
George Whitfield and Jane Ann Wilson were married in Pateley Bridge in the December quarter of 1904.
How does all that grab you? Any of it sound familiar?
I will check for sure when I get home in about an hour, but I always remember my grandmother saying "James J Wilson" but she could have been wrong, I suppose.
Given that I know for a fact that James Wilson and Margaret Florence Wearn/Wearne were married in Lancashire, and the only marriage for people with those surnames is between a James Wilson and a Margaret Wearne in Kirkdale, St. Athanasius, Liverpool, I know that they were married in 1918, per the Lancashire BMD site.
Also, Susan M is my grandmother. The M stands for McPherson, so her full name is Susan McPherson Wilson, but she married into the Harrison family (they later moved to America).
Funnily enough, this whole process started with me trying to find the link to that McPherson name for my dad.
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If he died in Knowsley in 1957 then FreeBMD ( free site) shows him to be 68 years old which tallies with the 1888 birth.
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If he died in Knowsley in 1957 then FreeBMD ( free site) shows him to be 68 years old which tallies with the 1888 birth.
I thought he died there but this whole experience is making me second-guess everything so I guess I'm going to treat it like I'm not sure... to try and be one hundred percent positive I get the right James I guess I'm going to go with I don't know when he died
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Also, Susan M is my grandmother. The M stands for McPherson, so her full name is Susan McPherson Wilson, but she married into the Harrison family (they later moved to America).
I don't want to send you down another rabbit hole but...
There is a James Wilson, born 1888, Kirkdale, Lancashire to Thomas Wilson, dock labourer (born Monaghan, Ireland) and Elizabeth Wylie Rodie (born Wigtonshire, Scotland). This couple were married in Liverpool in 1884. The reason I think this may be your James Wilson, is that in 1891 and 1901 he is in Kirkdale with his parents, and an elder sister named Susan McPherson Wilson.
I believe this may be the same James Wilson who is in Devonport as an Able Seaman with the navy in 1911, and who Isobel found in the 1939 register with wife Margaret - and the same James Wilson who died in Knowsley in 1957.
Ruth
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James J Wilson (James Joseph Wilson, I believe)
Why do you think he was Joseph? Is his middle name not on his marriage certificate?
was married in 1918 in Lancashire to Margaret Florence Wearn (sometimes spelled Wearne)
.
Looks as if they had
Agnes 1919
Margaret 1921
James 1923
Elizabeth 1925
Annie 1927
Susan M 1930
Sarah 1932
Martha 1937
Is that right? Which one is your grandparent?
One thing to note - in a lot of sources it shows his birth year as 1900. It took me a bit to figure out this isn't true. He was born 17 Dec 1899, but was not registered until 1900.
That's normal.
There was one James Joseph Wilson registered in the December quarter of 1899 in London, and two in the March quarter of 1900, of whom one was registered in West Derby (Liverpool), mother's maiden surname James.
There is also a Frederick Alexander Wilson, mother's surname James, registered in West Derby in the March quarter of 1902.
James Joseph Wilson, 11 and Frederick Alexander Wilson, 9, are in the 1911 census as the stepsons of George Whitfield. He also has a wife Jane, and daughters Margaret Hilda, 4; Clara Elizabeth, 2 and Elsie, 2 months.
Margaret Hilda Whitfield was registered in West Derby in the March quarter of 1907, Clara Elizabeth in the March quarter of 1909, and Elsie in the March quarter of 1911, mother's maiden surname James. So there is no doubt that Margaret Hilda, Clara Elizabeth and Elsie Whitfield are half-sisters of James Joseph and Frederick Alexander Wilson.
George Whitfield and Jane Ann Wilson were married in Pateley Bridge in the December quarter of 1904.
How does all that grab you? Any of it sound familiar?
Okay, I just looked it up... James Wilson was married to Margaret Wearne in 1918, and he was 29 years old. That would make his birth year something like 1888-1889.
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Also, Susan M is my grandmother. The M stands for McPherson, so her full name is Susan McPherson Wilson, but she married into the Harrison family (they later moved to America).
I don't want to send you down another rabbit hole but...
There is a James Wilson, born 1888, Kirkdale, Lancashire to Thomas Wilson, dock labourer (born Monaghan, Ireland) and Elizabeth Wylie Rodie (born Wigtonshire, Scotland). This couple were married in Liverpool in 1884. The reason I think this may be your James Wilson, is that in 1891 and 1901 he is in Kirkdale with his parents, and an elder sister named Susan McPherson Wilson.
I believe this may be the same James Wilson who is in Devonport as an Able Seaman with the navy in 1911, and who Isobel found in the 1939 register with wife Margaret - and the same James Wilson who died in Knowsley in 1957.
Ruth
Hi Ruth,
Wow - thanks so much for the help! You sharing this just sparked my memory... I only have one auntie from Liverpool left... and a couple years ago she told me that she THOUGHT that some of her dad's (her dad would be james wilson) family moved to Liverpool from Ireland.
Between all of the details you brought up, I'm pretty sure this is the one! Thanks again!
Any ideas on how I can be sure? This does sound right, though, especially given the McPherson thing and the Ireland thing.
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Great find ruthhelen. I hadn't scrolled that far down the 1891 choices. Was looking at one further up born in Liverpool. Think you are on the money with the Kirkdale one.
Isobel
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Also, Susan M is my grandmother. The M stands for McPherson, so her full name is Susan McPherson Wilson, but she married into the Harrison family (they later moved to America).
I don't want to send you down another rabbit hole but...
There is a James Wilson, born 1888, Kirkdale, Lancashire to Thomas Wilson, dock labourer (born Monaghan, Ireland) and Elizabeth Wylie Rodie (born Wigtonshire, Scotland). This couple were married in Liverpool in 1884. The reason I think this may be your James Wilson, is that in 1891 and 1901 he is in Kirkdale with his parents, and an elder sister named Susan McPherson Wilson.
I believe this may be the same James Wilson who is in Devonport as an Able Seaman with the navy in 1911, and who Isobel found in the 1939 register with wife Margaret - and the same James Wilson who died in Knowsley in 1957.
Ruth
Hi Ruth,
Wow - thanks so much for the help! You sharing this just sparked my memory... I only have one auntie from Liverpool left... and a couple years ago she told me that she THOUGHT that some of her dad's (her dad would be james wilson) family moved to Liverpool from Ireland.
Between all of the details you brought up, I'm pretty sure this is the one! Thanks again!
Any ideas on how I can be sure? This does sound right, though, especially given the McPherson thing and the Ireland thing.
Hey Ruth,
How and where did you find all of this? I am still new at this, but want to get to work updating my tree!
Thanks so much for your help!
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Hi
GRO has SMW 1885 with Mother's MN as Rodie
R
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Hi
GRO has SMW 1885 with Mother's MN as Rodie
R
Hey Ray,
THanks for the help but what does SMW mean?
Thanks!
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Elizabeth wylie Rodie was born 12thSep 1867 in Old Luce, Wigtownshire to Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Rodie nee Shaw.
Isobel
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And Elizabeth Shaw appears to be the daughter of Robert Shaw and Susan McPherson...
I can't find a baptism record, but there is an Elizabeth Shaw, aged 7, in Stoneykirk in 1851 with parents Robert and Susan Shaw. And a marriage of Robert Shaw and Susan McPherson in Kirkmaiden in 1842.
Ruth
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Hi
"GRO has SMW 1885 with Mother's MN as Rodie"
Apologies . . . . .
That'll be SusanMcPhersonWilson with Mother's maidenname as Rodie.
Ray
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HermitCedar, these are some useful sites for information
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search is an index to most of the England and Wales birth indexes from 1837 and 1983. It will eventually be complete. It is a transcription of what is in the published indexes.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp is the official government site where you order copies of certificates (do not get suckered into using any of the many other sites that offer to get certificates for you - all they will do is charge you extra for getting them).
The indexes here have been revised and now contain the maiden names of mothers right back to 1837, and I think they have death ages for the years when the original index (and therefore FreeBMD) do not have ages.
Most of us have access of some sort to transcriptions and originals of the England and Wales censuses. You can view some transcriptions free, but to get the originals you need a subscription to a pay site that has them.
For Scotland there is only one site, www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk where you can get originals, though the indexes at https://www.familysearch.org/hr/search/ can sometimes be helpful. (They can also be unhelpful - don't trust anything that says 'Of....' or 'About ....'.)
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Elizabeth wylie Rodie was born 12thSep 1867 in Old Luce, Wigtownshire to Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Rodie nee Shaw.
Isobel
Hello!
Where did you find this 1867 date? I seem to be finding 1849 on Scotland's People, but I could be mixing up Elizabeths
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I think the Elizabeth Rodie who was born in 1849 in Old Luce to Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Wylie will be Elizabeth Wylie Rodie's aunt. Her father, Thomas Rodie was born in Old Luce in 1846 to Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Wylie.
You'll find Elizabeth Wylie Rodie in the Statutory Registers, rather than the Church Registers on Scotland's People, as she was born after statutory registration was introduced in 1855 in Scotland.
Ruth
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The 1867 birth is on Scotlandspeople. Also on Familysearch.
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The 1867 birth is on Scotlandspeople. Also on Familysearch.
HermitCedar, the birth is indexed on FamilySearch but the original document, with all the available information, is only available on Scotland's People.
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I think the Elizabeth Rodie who was born in 1849 in Old Luce to Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Wylie will be Elizabeth Wylie Rodie's aunt. Her father, Thomas Rodie was born in Old Luce in 1846 to Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Wylie.
You'll find Elizabeth Wylie Rodie in the Statutory Registers, rather than the Church Registers on Scotland's People, as she was born after statutory registration was introduced in 1855 in Scotland.
Ruth
Hi everyone,
Thanks again for all of your help! The last thing I am trying to do here is correctly draw the connection/find the documents to connect the Elizabeth Wylie Rodie to Susan McPherson, her grandmother.
Could anyone help me draw this connection? Maybe my brain is just fried, but I am having a hard time with documents and dates.
Thank you!!!
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Elizabeth Wylie Rodie was born 12 Sep 1867 in Old Luce, Wigtonshire, to Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Shaw - you'll get the birth record on Scotland's People.
Elizabeth Wylie Rodie's mother, Elizabeth Shaw, was probably the daughter of Robert Shaw and Susan McPherson. There doesn't appear to be a surviving baptism, but Elizabeth Shaw, aged 7, appears in the 1851 census in Stoneykirk with parents Robert and Susan Shaw. There is a marriage of Robert Shaw and Susan McPherson in Kirkmaiden in 1842 that appears in the church registers - you'll be able to find this on Scotland's People too.
If you get hold of the marriage record for Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Shaw (1866, Stoneykirk), this will hopefully confirm my guess that her parents are Robert Shaw and Susan McPherson.
Ruth
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Elizabeth Wylie Rodie was born 12 Sep 1867 in Old Luce, Wigtonshire, to Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Shaw - you'll get the birth record on Scotland's People.
Elizabeth Wylie Rodie's mother, Elizabeth Shaw, was probably the daughter of Robert Shaw and Susan McPherson. There doesn't appear to be a surviving baptism, but Elizabeth Shaw, aged 7, appears in the 1851 census in Stoneykirk with parents Robert and Susan Shaw. There is a marriage of Robert Shaw and Susan McPherson in Kirkmaiden in 1842 that appears in the church registers - you'll be able to find this on Scotland's People too.
If you get hold of the marriage record for Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Shaw (1866, Stoneykirk), this will hopefully confirm my guess that her parents are Robert Shaw and Susan McPherson.
Ruth
Hey Ruth!
So I found the marriage cert for Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Shaw, where it lists McPherson as Elizabeth's mother. As you said, it's from 1866, Stonykirk.
I found it on Scotland's People.
So, with this information, how do we consider this confirmed?
Thanks again!
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I'm not sure what else you want to confirm ???
If you're happy, from the evidence you have, that Elizabeth Wylie Rodie is the daughter of Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Shaw; and you're happy that Elizabeth Shaw is the daughter of Robert Shaw and Susan McPherson, then that would confirm it for me.
If it were me, I would be getting hold of all the census entries where these families appear, to see if the story follows through - and I'd probably be checking that there weren't any marriages/births etc. of individuals with similar names, in similar locations - and follow their journeys to rule them out.
You could also get hold of Elizabeth Shaw's death registration - in Scotland, death registrations also include the father's name and mother's maiden name, if these were known to whoever registered the death. They are less reliable as a source of parents' names, as deaths are more likely to be registered by individuals who aren't family members, or who are distant family members. Marriage records are more reliable, as this information would have been given to the registrar by the bride and groom themselves.
Hope that helps.
Ruth
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You could also get hold of Elizabeth Shaw's death registration - in Scotland, death registrations also include the father's name and mother's maiden name, if these were known to whoever registered the death. They are less reliable as a source of parents' names, as deaths are more likely to be registered by individuals who aren't family members, or who are distant family members. Marriage records are more reliable, as this information would have been given to the registrar by the bride and groom themselves.
Quoting myself... sheesh... ::)
I've just realised that Elizabeth Rodie (nee Shaw) died in England - so this isn't going to be much help...
Ruth
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You could also get hold of Elizabeth Shaw's death registration - in Scotland, death registrations also include the father's name and mother's maiden name, if these were known to whoever registered the death. They are less reliable as a source of parents' names, as deaths are more likely to be registered by individuals who aren't family members, or who are distant family members. Marriage records are more reliable, as this information would have been given to the registrar by the bride and groom themselves.
Quoting myself... sheesh... ::)
I've just realised that Elizabeth Rodie (nee Shaw) died in England - so this isn't going to be much help...
Ruth
Not a worry - thank you! You have been an amazing help so far.
I am trying to make sure this is concrete so I can continue researching the Susan McPherson line.
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Also, Susan M is my grandmother. The M stands for McPherson, so her full name is Susan McPherson Wilson, but she married into the Harrison family (they later moved to America).
I don't want to send you down another rabbit hole but...
There is a James Wilson, born 1888, Kirkdale, Lancashire to Thomas Wilson, dock labourer (born Monaghan, Ireland) and Elizabeth Wylie Rodie (born Wigtonshire, Scotland). This couple were married in Liverpool in 1884. The reason I think this may be your James Wilson, is that in 1891 and 1901 he is in Kirkdale with his parents, and an elder sister named Susan McPherson Wilson.
I believe this may be the same James Wilson who is in Devonport as an Able Seaman with the navy in 1911, and who Isobel found in the 1939 register with wife Margaret - and the same James Wilson who died in Knowsley in 1957.
Ruth
Hi again, Ruth! Quick followup if you dont mind... where did you find that Thomas Wilson and Elizabeth Rodie were married in 1884? I cant seem to find the record.
Thank you!
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Have a look on FreeCen. As Ruth mentioned, it shows in 1884 in Liverpool 3rd Qrt refs 8b/332.
Monica
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Have a look on FreeCen. As Ruth mentioned, it shows in 1884 in Liverpool 3rd Qrt refs 8b/332.
Monica
Hi there,
Unless I'm mistaken, FreeCEN is only for censues, not marriage records?
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Sunday night tired me! FreeBMD www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl is the correct site.
Monica
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Sunday night tired me! FreeBMD www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl is the correct site.
Monica
Hey Monica, no problem, thanks for the help! My issue now is that FreeBMD doesnt tell me who he was married to, so I don't know how to confirm it?
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If you click on the page number, you will get the names of the 4 people on that page, so it narrows down the search to just 2 possible spouses. In this case you know the bride's name, so clicking on the page number will confirm it.
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Hi
"GRO has SMW 1885 with Mother's MN as Rodie"
Apologies . . . . .
That'll be SusanMcPhersonWilson with Mother's maidenname as Rodie.
Ray
No it doesn't, but your start to look for additonal material to support the names or order the cert to confirm the details.
The 1901 census in Everton below:
Thomas Wilson 39 dock labourer b. Belford Ireland
Elizabeth W Wilson 33 b. Scotland
Susan Mc Pherson Wilson 15
James Wilson 12
Annie Wilson 9
Sarah A Wilson 4
Agnes Wilson 1
Someone following the line of Sarah Ann has posted this info online http://fraserhamilton.org.uk/f3370.htm
This info all needs to be verified but gives something to work with for now.
Monica
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The 1901 census in Everton below:
Thomas Wilson 39 dock labourer b. Belford Ireland
That's a transcription error. I read the original as Belfast.
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More likely, Forfain ;)
Monica
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Elizabeth Wylie Rodie looks to have been named after her paternal grandmother. From someone else's research on this, a clip from Thomas Rodie and Elizabeth Shaw's marriage in 1866 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY7G-DB3
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