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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Iain... on Thursday 26 October 17 09:01 BST (UK)

Title: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Thursday 26 October 17 09:01 BST (UK)
Good morning All…

I’m researching a certain CSM Brice McGregor and in particular, his activities following his service as Yeoman of the Guard. 
Brice was a former Sergeant in the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards (The Scots Guards) and was one of the men officially down as assisting with the closing of the north gate in the Hougoumont Farm, Waterloo.

His 1841 census
Suttley House, Whitehall:
Brice McGregor, 59, publican, born abt1782 in Glasgow, Scotland.
Wife Elizabeth ‘McGregor’ (McGheill) 56, born abt1785, England.
Plus several servants.

I always thought that ‘Suttley House’ was a house name because his death indicates; “Died at Suttley House, Whitehall, London on 3rd of December 1846.” 
In the meantime, I’ve discovered that the word ‘suttley’ or ‘suttling’ was the name for a canteen.
I received the following from the Guards Museum this morning…
“You refer to the property in two ways, 'Suttley' and 'Suttling'.  I am a member of the Honourable Artillery Company and the bar at our headquarters (Armoury House, City Road, EC1) has always been known as the Sutling Room and many theories abound as to why it is so named.  I rather like your explanation.....I certainly didn't know that fact.”

Unfortunately, he was unable to tell me where it was exactly.
As you can see with the Wiki URL, this part of the Palace was already built over a ‘suttling house.’ (see the image with a Guard sentry clearly visible)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_House,_St_James%27s_Palace

In order to help find the location, I have a newspaper cutting relative to a prosecution against McGregor in 1832 where he was accused of having thrown a Coldstreamer out of the canteen and he “fell down 5 steps.”   
A witness for the defence of McGregor was a Colonel who fought alongside him at Hougoumont and he said…, “I was watching the incident from the Officer’s Mess where I could see the door.”   Meaning that the Mess must have been at about 90° to the canteen.
Could York House (Wiki image) be the Officer’s Mess with the canteen to the left ?

If anyone has any idea where this suttling house was situated (or better still, a sketch) I’d be extremely interested to receive the details.

Thanks in anticipation…, Iain.
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Thursday 26 October 17 09:11 BST (UK)
Just looked at the map..., it's certainly not York House !   To far from St James's !


Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: stanmapstone on Thursday 26 October 17 09:14 BST (UK)
Suttle is in the Oxford English Dictionary
 b. in vbl. n. suttling used attrib., esp. in   suttling-house n. a house where food and drink are supplied, esp. to soldiers; also suttling booth, suttling department, suttling place, suttling shop.

Sutler;  a. One who follows an army or lives in a garrison town and sells provisions to the soldiers.
Stan
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Thursday 26 October 17 09:39 BST (UK)
Thanks Stan...   ;)
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Thursday 26 October 17 09:42 BST (UK)
I’ve just ‘walked around the block’ using Google Earth and the only place that seems possible is Marlborough Road.

I’m saying this because there was a terrorist attack in 1841 and McGregor was slightly injured…, meaning that the bomb/device must have been thrown into a court yard.   Nearly all the remaining walls of the Palace have uninterrupted buildings.

And no "6 steps' to be seen !   But following about 150 years there could have been alterations. 
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 26 October 17 09:46 BST (UK)
http://www.napoleonicwarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=2442&start=170

refers to "... the 'tilt yard' at Horse Guards ..." 
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Thursday 26 October 17 10:46 BST (UK)
Hi there...

Lol..., that's my post on the NWF; but I can't see the relevance in regards to 'tilt yard' ?  And Horse Guards is on the other side of The Mall.  :)

Also more confusion with Wikipedia contradicting Google maps...  Wiki informs us that the building looks on to Cleveland Row. (near Pall Mall)
But using Google, there's no railings or a visible courtyard along that road.  Unless the census is indicating an interior building.
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 26 October 17 10:49 BST (UK)
1841 Census
The addresses read -

" ... Adjutant General's Office, Footguards Suttling House, Upper Charles Street, Dover House ..."
A Rebecca Howe is at the Adjutant General's on the '41 Census.

"Accounts and Papers of the House of Commons, Vol 45, 1845

House or Building - Part of the Horse Guards Building
Purpose to which the House or Building is appropriated - The Adjutant General's Office
Names and Official Designations of the Persons residing in the same - Mrs Howe, housekeeper and two servants

Dover House still at southern end of Horseguards 
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 26 October 17 10:53 BST (UK)
I think the "Suttling House" at Cleveland Row was that of the King's Guard.
Re. the army never sure of the names of the regiments (as they often changed) but thought King's Guard not another name for Foot Guards?
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 26 October 17 11:01 BST (UK)
Re."tilt yard" (now found the newspaper item), I took this to mean that the Suttling House looked out on Horse Guards rather than Whitheall.
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Thursday 26 October 17 11:02 BST (UK)
Wow…, and the waters get muddier !  Thank you very much for that ! 
And I’ll obviously need some time to research it.

Lol…, and just as I started writing this, I received a message from the NWF with the following.

“Hi Iain - from memory, I think I recall Brice's establishment as being located in 'the tiltyard at Horseguards' (I'm not sure if this is the same place as St James's Palace?). Anyway, here's a link that might help and Google may reveal more references:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vol16/pt1/pp5-16&ved=0ahUKEwj726iU943XAhUMaVAKHc8mD3oQFggmMAA&usg=AOvVaw1oSPWlxEfwB5PvNhfaOFZU

Roots Chat…, what a wonderful website !  ;)
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 26 October 17 11:27 BST (UK)
His census entry follows an occupier of part (" rooms and an attic) of the Horse Guards Building. Is it possible to pin that down? Is it the "Old War Office Building" - had started checking out "Adjutant General" But must disappear now (allotment duties call!).
 
I cannot see an Upper Charles Streeton the 1837 map of London.
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: StevieSteve on Thursday 26 October 17 12:27 BST (UK)
Is it the "Old War Office Building"


No, that's on the opposite side of Whitehall
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: StevieSteve on Thursday 26 October 17 12:29 BST (UK)
Quite a lot here (which I haven't read)

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vol16/pt1/pp5-16
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 26 October 17 13:11 BST (UK)
SteveSteve's link mentions the Commander in Chief's Office

From the same Publication (1845) that provided details of the Adjutant General's Office

"Commander in Chief's Office"

House or Building - Part of the Horse Guard's Building
Purpose - Commander in Chief's Office
Person's Residing - (1) Mrs Ferguson, housekeeper and two servants. Two rooms in the attic, kitchen and servants' room (2) Mr Whitmore, Office Keeper, wife and son. One room underground and two on the upper floor"

Yet to spot either in the '41 Census

I raised the query about the the old War Office, off Horse Guards Ave, possibly being the old Horse Guard Building after reading a "google books" reference - but didn't follow it up there and then (allotment was calling). Just checked and the address before the Adjutant General on the 1841 Census is The War Office.

Now, typically, cannot find item!!
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 26 October 17 13:21 BST (UK)
Kelly's Map, London 1857

http://www.mapco.net/kelly1857/kelly11b.htm

Shows a Charles Street, Whitehall - yet to pinpoint an Upper Charles Street
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Thursday 26 October 17 13:25 BST (UK)
Amazing...

Thanks everyone for all that…
Things are certainly looking a little less muddy.   I played the pipes dozens of times in the Officer’s Mess at Saint James’s and just couldn’t for the life of me see how their windows could have looked onto such a premises. (with a court and railings)   
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/o7dyzzs5ih8niq4/AAC6g4k932bIoFowIJ1RLTwFa

Horse Guards looks more promising !
Having served in the same ‘Light Company’ as Brice, one tends to get the impression that the Army just don’t make clerical errors !   
Looks like I’ve another think coming.
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 26 October 17 13:39 BST (UK)
Looks like the reference I found to the "old" War Office occupying the Horse Guards' Building should read the "old,old War Office"?

The 1841 Census War Office, Horse Guards address shows a "Mary Wheeler". Several 1837 newspapers reported the death of "Mr Wheeler, of the War Office, Horseguards."
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 26 October 17 13:54 BST (UK)
"Lockie's Topography of London 1810" (google books) pinpoints the Adjutant General's Office.  Location still good for 1841 is the question?
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Thursday 26 October 17 13:56 BST (UK)
I’ve just compared your 1857 map with Google and it looks like the Foreign & Commonwealth Office was constructed on the site of all 4 streets, just next to the Cenotaph.
 
Unless of course ‘Upper’ Charles Street was elsewhere.
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 26 October 17 18:22 BST (UK)
Have you checked "Lockie's"? The GPS of its day.
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Friday 27 October 17 08:55 BST (UK)
Finally, had time to read the British History online item. It mentions the proposed location of the Sutling (one "l") House in the 1750 rebuild of the principal ("middle") Horseguards building and its being abolished 1851.
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Friday 27 October 17 09:34 BST (UK)
...Horseguards building and its being abolished 1851.

London Daily News, 16 Sep 1854
"Two or three years since a sutling house was removed from the South Wing of the Horse Guards structure and the court yard adjoining it built upon ..."
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Saturday 28 October 17 17:47 BST (UK)
Hanes (Forgive me, I suppose that’s your first name) a hundred thanks !

I’m a member of the British Newspaper Archive so I’ll research that item.
As for Lockie…, I compared it with todays Google Maps and the streets near Downing Street have been demolished to make way for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office; just opposite the Cenotaph.  But...  But 'Upper Charles Street' is not apparent !!(?)

In the meantime, I've been researching a certain Guardsman called George Osborne who married in Belgium two months before the Battle. (Brice would have known him) 
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768744.msg6244251#msg6244251
With no luck, I decided to contact my Regiment and ask the Chaplain for assistance.
Ken provided a mountain of information and what’s more, thanks to him, the Church of England replied to help with the inquiry.

Ken found himself at Saint James’s palace the other day and before leaving for Aldershot, he popped into RHQ WelliB where F Company is billeted. (F Company is the 'remnants' of my 2nd Battalion and that of Brice McGregor.  The Battalion being reduced to Company strength, they continue to maintain the 2SG Colours.
During his visit, the CO seemed to be extremely interested and Ken wrote the following reply:
“Iain,
Me again. The F-Coy Commander has been quite proactive on this and the Officers' Mess Colour Sergeant at St. James' Palace is asking around the Royal Household for you!”

Another Freemasonry source is that Brice was a ‘PM&T.’ (Past Master and Tyler)   Tyler, meaning that he stood guard by the door with sword in hand, barring anyone who was not a Masson.
Lol…, and the soup thickens.

I only hope that F Company can find a drawing of the suttling house !   It seems illogical that the Officer's Mess at a 90° angle to the suttling house does not have a drawing or painting somewhere;
Keeping my fingers crossed !
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Saturday 28 October 17 20:30 BST (UK)
There's earlier mention in this post about the Sutling House, St. James' Palace - that of the Kings' Guard I believe.

Check the Morning Advertiser, 26 Sep 1834, re. "Joseph Ayling".

Best of luck with the search
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Sunday 29 October 17 05:56 GMT (UK)
Lol...   More confusion as this indicates Saint James's Palace and not Horse Guards.
The Colour Sergeant doing some research there may come across it.

In the meantime, it does show that the suttling houses did have strict opening hours, despite their raison d’ętre !

Thank you for that...  ;)

Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Sunday 29 October 17 08:28 GMT (UK)
As I read it -

Joseph Ayling ran the sutling house in St Jame's Palace - the Kings Guards.
Brice ran the sutling house on Horseguards - the Foot Guards. His predecessor was a Mr Childes?
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 01 November 17 08:24 GMT (UK)
Thanks Hanes…

I think I must concentrate on the 41 census indicating Horse Guards and Dover House.
When looking carefully at Google’s Street View, it looks suspiciously like there was a road between Dover House and today’s Cabinet Office.  The Cabinet Office roof adjacent to Dover House does not ‘correspond’ with the remainder of the building.
If so…, could that have been ‘Upper Charles Street.’
https://www.google.be/maps/@51.504119,-0.1289201,127a,35y,90h,45t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=fr

Also, on the census, it does not say that the canteen was in Upper Charles Street…, that was Eliza Bennett’s address.

In the meantime…, something was obviously demolished and I’d be inclined to say that Dover House itself has not been touched since its construction.   So there must have been another building.
What’s more, looking at the plan of the building, the Dover family lived there and I doubt very much if they’d have shared the building with a canteen of drunken soldiers.

I’ll try and get F Company Scots Guards CO and RQMS to have a look.   I think the RQMS limited his research to Saint James’s.

Thanks All.
…, Iain.
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: hanes teulu on Wednesday 01 November 17 09:32 GMT (UK)
https://howlingpixel.com/wiki/William_Kent

Tab down to the ground floor plan of Horse-guards

Not easy to read but I think I can make out "C C Horse Sutlers, F F Judge Advocate, P Foot Sutlers"

"A = Gateway" and Lockie's 1810 Topography states -
"Adjutant General's Office, Whitehall,is the door on the left, under the arch in the Horse Guards, from Whitehall towards the park" 
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 01 November 17 19:33 GMT (UK)
https://howlingpixel.com/wiki/William_Kent

Tab down to the ground floor plan of Horse-guards

Not easy to read but I think I can make out "C C Horse Sutlers, F F Judge Advocate, P Foot Sutlers"

"A = Gateway" and Lockie's 1810 Topography states -
"Adjutant General's Office, Whitehall,is the door on the left, under the arch in the Horse Guards, from Whitehall towards the park"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Lol..., what can I say except thank you !
Taken from your plan in the URL...
I hope my image below is correct.

In the meantime, I received a message from a friend with the following.
"Archives have something from 1847:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2694328”

Saying that the Saint James's suttling house was an "eyesore." (demolition)
This could very well have been the same thoughts of the powers to be at Horse Guards.






Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 01 November 17 19:43 GMT (UK)
Lol…
I’m going to have a lot of pleasure telling the Household Cavalry that the Foot Guards (the ‘Tarmac Technicians’) were needed to guard their buildings in days gone by…   ;)
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Thursday 02 November 17 06:59 GMT (UK)
Just noticed this...
All around the building, the window 'holes' are indicated with supports.   Whereas the door has nothing.

As such, we can be pretty certain that this was the place where the bomb (an unsuccessful incendiary device) was thrown and where Brice was injured.
There must also have been a sentry box nearby..., as Brice thought it was the Guardsman who fired at him. (then had him arreseted to have his musket checked out)
Title: Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
Post by: Iain... on Tuesday 21 November 17 08:50 GMT (UK)
Hi All…

Firstly, many thanks for all your help.
Just for your interest, I contacted the Household Cavalry Museum and was immediately informed that my plan above was upside-down. 
I felt a right twit !!  Especially after doing so many Trooping of the Colours there…

Anyway, here’s the final research image highlighting the building in white.  This also corresponds nicely with what could very well have been the Officer’s Mess…, where one of the Waterloo Field Officers watched the incident from the window.

Kind ReGuards…, Iain.