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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: littlesis 76 on Thursday 26 October 17 09:06 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I know you all love a mystery and this one has me very confused.
I am researching a Martina Elizabeth Fairweather nee Shave born 1892 Marylebone London.
On her marriage in 1919 she list her father as Benedict John Ross ,her birth cert is Walter Shave and mother Harriett Shave new Bailey and her death she is Martina Shaven Fairweather.
She is on the the 1891 census with her mother as Martina head of household (married )and two sisters who are reg as Ross MMN Morris .God knows where Morris comes from
Here is what I think I have discovered Walter Shave and Harriet Bailey married had 5 children he died in 1893,she met Bendict J Ross who was still married had 2 more children .She married him in 1916 once his wife died.
I can't find all her 1st marriage children esp Florence and why did she completely change her name and put a false maiden name on the births of her two daughters
Very Confused and have i done it all wrong ,no one on Ancestry who has them on there trees has made a connection with them all ?
I do have lots of info on young Martina it's her mother Martina or Harriet that is confusing me !
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She is registered under Martina Elizabeth Shave June qtr 1892
Mother's maiden name Bailey
Louisa Maud
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She is her birth date is 8 May 1892 ,she married as a Ross though to Fairweather .Have the birth cert and marriage of her but the birth is a copy dated in 1939 and father is listed as Walter Benedict Shave so could she have been confused or do they have to put exaçtly what is on the original?
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I would have thought they would have put exactly what is on the original
Martina and Benedict are on electoral register, 1920 to name just one , 18 Gladys Road Camden
Bit of a mystery this one
LM
" father is listed as Walter Benedict Shave "
that is really strange as she married a Benedict
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That did throw me but I wasn't sure as the copy is in 1939 so could she of suggested her father's middle name was Benedict.
Her two sisters are Marcia Stella Ross born 21 Dec 1898 MMN Morris and Felicitas Garden Ross MMN Morris reg April 1900 .I think Garden is a transcript error as Benedict father's middle name is Gardner.She lies in 1911 census stating they are married too and from memory I think he puts in one he was born in Scotland !
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Also I think I have found 2 sons from her 1st marriage living with her brother Gerorge Bailey on the 1901 census but she had a daughter Florence Maria Shave born 1890 who I think I found in school admissions in 1899 as Flo Shave mothers name Harriet but what happened to her
The most annoying thing is I am not completly sure who is the bio dad of Martina .I am assuming Walter Shave but the birth cert has thrown me with the middle name being Benedict
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Any certificate should be a copy of what is on the register entry - there is no option for her to add information to it when it is produced.
Certificates issued at different times can have different information, but only if there has been a correction or re-registration involved at some point (which should be obvious from the wording on the entry).
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Thank you Anthony...sadly that info makes it more confusing esp as I can find no other record stating Walters middle name is Benedict
However I do love a mystery 😀
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Haven't found out much about Florence Maria but have found a baptism
19/11/1890
St Augustine's Paddington
address 77 Canterbury Road
father coal porter
parents Walter and Harriet
birth MMN Bailey
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1st marriage
1883 Sept qtr
Chelsea
Walter Shave aged 19 of 62 Denmark Road Kilburn father Walter
to
Harriet Bailey aged 19 of 2 Carigan Road Kilburn father William
ref 1a 603
Louisa Maud
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Martina Elizabeth Ross
Baptism Age:24
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 8 May 1892
Baptism Date:11 Oct 1916
Baptism Place: St Simon, Hammersmith, Hammersmith and Fulham, England
Father: Benidict Ross
Mother: Martina Ross
Also by 1902 her school record is using the Gladys road address
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I had seen the record in 1916 very late in age for that .
I do think it's more likely that her father was Walter Shave and not Benedict Ross .
I was told by Martina's grandson that he was always told she got her name as her family worked for a rich Italian family and they took the name from them.
I think the mother Martina changed her name as Benedict was still married and also as she didn't raise the rest of her children she left all her previous life behind bar one daughter
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How sad but we never really know how people lived their lives do we ?
LM
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Was there also a Walter Shave
St Augustine school,07/07/1890
born 27/07/1882
father Walter of 77 Canterbury Road
LM
Walter Shave aged 21
married
Alice Eva Cannon aged 19
25/12/1901
St Pauls Marylebone
both living 13 Portman bldgs.
Father shown as Walter deceased
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I believe her was the oldest son she had 2 more James bn 1885 and Albert Edward 1889 and Florence 1890 .I think I have Walter and James in 1901 with there uncle William Bailey ,I think Albert might be in a industrial school and have lost Florence ?
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Can't find a registration for Walter who looks as if he was born before the marriage of Walter and Harriet, 27/07/1882
LM
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What do you think about this
1901
Florence Chapman alias Shave in Marylebone school in Hayes aged 9
Do you think it is your Florence
LM
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Just a thought, is it worth querying the birth cert you have which seems to be a problem
It really is a mystery
By the way, St Augustine's school had a church quite near where one of the Shave children were baptised
LM
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Sorry Louisa I didn't get any emails notifications.
I have seen that Florence and wondered if it is her.
I have found Felicitas leaving for Canada again address is 18 Gladys road but no luck with Marcia
The family use Rosscarbur as well as Ross to make it more confusing
I have found Benedict 1st wife Winifred on 1901 and 1911 with another family but also with son William Herbert Ross bn 1895
The other mystery is how Martina went from a widow to being a home owner of a very large house ,on the later electrol rolls her and Benedict are the only occupants or have I got that completely wrong ?
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This gets more complicated as time goes on
The only William Herbert Ross s I can find circa 1895 are the following
William Herbert Ross 1895 Paddington MMN Wicks
William Herbert Ross Coventry MMN Southorn
I suggest Paddington might be the one as the St Augustine's school and church are not that fara way
Louisa Maud
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Benedict John Andrew Ross father John Gardner Ross
married 03/07/1876
Kensington
to
Winifred Wicks father William Wicks
So William Herbert belongs to this couple
No further info on him so far
As regards to the "big house" was there a will leaving such a property to her
LM
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The first time I can find Benedict Ross in 18 Gladys Road is 1918, is it possible for you to find who lived there prior to them moving in, perhaps a relative left the house to them as a gift,
LM
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The Ross family are shown as CARBUR on one census which has been corrected to Ross
LM
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In the 1881 census, Kensington, Middlesex
Benedict J ROSS, head, 23, gasfitter, Scotland
Winifred do, wife, 23,
3 children
St Thomas S do, 3
Winifred do, 1
Benedict J do, 3
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In 1861, St Marylebone, Marylebone, Middlesex
John ROSS, head, 32, church decorator (a word), Kent Gillingham
Elizabeth do, wife, 34,
Benedict do, son, 3
Mary do, daughter, 1
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Benedict is in Folkestone in 1901
Both Martina's are at Gladys road by 1902 according to school records.
A school record has Martina Ross admitted to Netherwood school 2nd July 1902 and leaving 22nd May 1906. However a second record on 28th May 1903 has her as a readmission and the reason given is absent in Folkestone??
Then I fell over this which may cause more confusion
England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Martina E Morris
Spouse Benedict J Ross
Registration Year:1913
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district Willesden
Volume: 3a
Page:426
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Yes, more confusion, why the change of names I wonder.
Perhaps she lived with Mr Morris before she married Benedict Ross and took on the name Morris, there are so many names floating about for this woman, a birth cert would be a good idea
I am beginning to become confused.com ???
Louisa Maud
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I have found out a few bits. Benedict was married to Winifred Wicks they had a few children and last one was William Herbert ,I found them in 1901 but only as I found him ,he is with his mother Winfred and she is listed as married to William Barnes ?? .They are with the same family in 1911 but she is then listed as housekeeper and is Mrs Ross.She died in 1912 which is why I think Martina and Benedict then got married .
I have no idea where the Morris comes from ,i think it's a name she made up as she puts that as her maiden name with her two children with Benedict.
They do also use Ross,Rosscarbur and Carbur,this also I have no clue
Just too confusing
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So in 1901 Martina Ross and her 3 daughters ,1 from Walter Shave (Martina) and 2 daughters Marcia and Felicitas Ross born to Benedict using MMN Ross are in Hampstead no Benedict about but he is in Folkestone .So they moved to Gladys Road by 1902
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Re the last message:
The two younger daughters are registered Ross mothers maiden name Morris.
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I finally tracked down 18 Gladys Road in the 1901 census. RG13/126
There are three different family groups there. No obvious connection. Two heads of household living on own funds, the other a surveyor working from home.
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I was then looking for that address Glenclare ,I also cant find Benedict in 1901 at Folkestone ?
Looks like the story of Martina working for a rich Italian family is probably false then.
Looks like there are 2 families
The Shaves with Walter Shave and Harriett nee Bailey
The Ross/Rosscarbur/Carbur with Benedict and Winifred nee Wicks
Harriett was widowed and Benedict were still married so they married once Winifred died but still have no idea why she uses the name Morris
Then we have children from all 3 relationships that some we can find some are missing
1st relationship
Walter Shave 1864-1893 (no birth found) and Harriett Bailey
Walter Shave bn 1883
James Shave bn 1884 both boys living with uncle William Bailey in 1901 census
Albert Edward Shave, poss in Industrial School as inmate in 1901
Florence Maria Shave, bn 1890 poss as Florence Chapman/Shave in 1901
Martina E Shave bn 1892
2nd
Benedict John Andrew and Winifred Wicks married 3 July 1876
St Thomas Stephen Ross bn 1879
Winifred E Ross 1880-1900
Benedict J Ross 1882
William Herbert Ross bn 1895 (not sure if Benedict is his father or William Barnes who Winifred is living with in 1901
3rd Relationship
Benedict J Ross/Ross Carbur and Martina E Morris aka Harriet Bailey/Shave or Morris
Marcia Stella 1898 found in 1901,1911 in Gladys Rd with parent or parents nothing after
Felicitas Garden Ross Ross 1900,found in 1901,1911 then leaving for Canada in 1927 address Gladys Road
Also we have the two certs one birth of Martina Elizabeth Shave ,father Walter Benedict ? Shave mother Harriet Bailey
Then the marriage of Martina Elizabeth Ross to Stanley Fairweather ,father is Benedict John Ross
Had to write in all down to save my head exploding !
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1901 - Benedict is under Carter and is a border. I think he says born Scotland
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Strange thing is to search
Walter Shave born 1864 += or - 2 years only comes up with the marriage of Walter Shave to Harriett Bailey 1883
LM
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1891 mis-transcription as Share
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What about
Walter George Shave
Sept qtr 1863
Marylebone
ref 1a 485
MMN Watts
Could this be Walter who you say was born 1864?
LM
John Ransome Shave full age father John
to
Mary Ann Watts minor father Richard Dec'd
Christ Church Marylebone
Dec 1845
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There is a family of
Mary Ann Shave who appears to be in Marylebone workhouse Oct 1860
Mary Ann Shave aged 29
Maria 9
Richard 6
Elizabeth 1month
shows children illegitimate BUT are they the children of John Ransome and Mary Ann Watts who married 1845
Richard born 1854
Maria born 1851 showing MMN Watts
no trace Elizabeth so far
There is John Shave death showing 1850 Kensington/Paddington and Fulham
LM
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So after having a break from Ancestry for a little while I was contacted by a lady who believed her husband was possibly related to Harriet and Walter Shave
After a few messages and a link to this thread she came up with possibly Harriet Bailey and Martina were not the same person and Harriet gave her youngest to Martina after being widowed
She had found a 1901 census with a lady living with a family ,no first name but surname Shave and she has a 3 yr old daughter also Shave .I have just checked GRO index and a Jenny Shave was born in Hendon and mothers maiden is Bailey is this a huge coincidence or does the mystery carry on
I cancelled my subscription but think I might have to subscribe again
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Just thought I would update ppl who help me with this
It turns out Martina and Harriet weren't the same lady.It now looks like Harriet gave her daughter to Martina Morris
In 1901 I believe Harriet is on census just as Shave with a daughter aged 3 ,there is a marriage in 1904 between a Harriet Shave and a Michael Donoghue.
They are in the 1911 census with a 13 yr old and several younger children and on GRO index the child are reg mothers maiden name not Shave but Bailey .
So I think it's safe to say Harriet Donoghue is my Harriet
Now I have to find out who this Martina was and who she was to Harriet ,is she the Italian that the family spoke off
Thank you for your help.!
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Good result then
Louisa Maud
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Can you tell me where you found the marriage record for Harriet Shave and Michael Donoghue? My initial search on ancestry doesn't find it.
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I you will find the Donaghue/Shave marriage listed on freebmd's, I can't find it on Ancestry as yet
1904 Marylebone
Louisa Maud
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Hi ,In am just looking for more advice
Having looked at Martina's ( the daughter) birth cert in 1892 it gives a address as 52,Messina Avenue London
In 1891 same address living is a Martina Barwaw aged 22 living by her own means and born Fitzroy Sq,London.
How do I find anymore on this lady or address as I can't find anything in ance***.
I think she was the mother but she had Harriet register the birth .
Someone from the Shave side has research the family a lot and she doesn't think that Martina belongs to the Shaves and I think I agree
Few reasons for thinking that are all of Walter & Harriet other children were reg and the parents had no middle names where as on Martina birth cert they have middle names of Martina and Benedict.
All Walter & Harriet's children were baptised and Martina was not
Walter died of a syphilis type disease which he had had for 3 years
Martina birth was reg at the address Martina Barwaw was living and not Harriet and Walter
I need to find any more info on Martina Barwaw although I think it may be a typo error on the census in 1891
I have never come across a more complicated family and I have done some strange ones ;D
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Now, I might be completely barking up the wrong tree, BUT 1891 shows
Martina Ross aged 32 dress maker
Martina E aged 8 reg as Martina E Shave MMN Bailey
Murcia aged 2 reg as Ross MMN Morris
Felicitas aged 11 months reg as Ross MMN Morris
Checked births and MMN
1871 RG10/221 FOLIO 110 PAGE 4
Roman Catholic School as scholars
Mary Ross aged 11 n/t so far
Martina Ross aged 7, poss MMN Breen
I have not checked over all of the previous messages so I might be wrong
Louisa Maud
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What about Edward A Ross born 1921 Hampstead MMN Ross?
Murcia S Ross appears to have married Hugh Hadley 1925
LM
Might be treading on old ground here
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Hi Louise ,that's the family in 1901 at 52,Messina Avenue
In 1891 at 52 Messina Avenue there is a Martina Bursaw age 22 living on own means (cant see its a typo error but no surname exists as far as I can see)
Also she put place of birth Fitzroy Square ,have googled the address and it's extremely posh a lot of famous ppl have lived there and still do
In 1892 when daughter was born reg to Harriet and Walter Shave the address they use is 52,Messina Avenue although they weren't living there and the first time they come up with middle names of Martina and Benedict .
I cannot find who this Martina Burwaw is but I know she used Morris for her marriage and maiden name for the 2 other children she had with Benedict Ross
Was she wealthy as living by own means at 22 and born at Fitzroy square or is it another lie !
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Because of the name I decided to have a look further back for her birth, went back to 1871 when I thought Martina might have been a baby, I just felt somehow Martina in the Catholic school was her, I might well be wrong, no Catholic baptisms on line as far as I now but I stand to be corrected
Murcia listed on census married Hugh Hadley, 1925 have you got her marriage cert as that would show who her father was, Filicitas emigrated
Louisa Maud
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There is a family tree online with a John Garden Ross born 1799 died 1860, Felicitas was Felicitas Garden Ross, is that just a coincidence, can't find a connection to Martina so far
LM
PS, there is also school records for Martina , first record no parents showing, second record against parent or guardian is Martina
Martina was confirmed at St Marks Regents Park 14/12/1916 aged 24 address given as St Andrews
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Hi Louise ,thanks for looking
I have Martina Elizabeth Shave born 1892 to Harriet Martina Shave nee Bailey and Walter Benedict Shave who died 1893.
The Shaves have 5 other children all baptised Martina was not and they never had middle names not on there marriage,death or any of the other childrens birth cert plus they Martina's birth cert gives address 52,Messina Avenue
Then I have in 1891 a yr before baby Martina was born in 52 Messina Avenue i have a Martina Burwaw age 22 living by own means ,in 1901 census same address we have a Martina Ross who is with daughters Martina ,Murcia and Felicitas.
I believe all 3 children belong to Martina (who also uses Morris on records) and Benedict Ross who was married
In 1913 after his 1st wife dies he marries Martina Morris and they live at 18,Gladys Road for a number of years .
I think Martina came from money and possibly one she became became pregnant she got Harriet and Walter to reg the baby ...may be going mad but looking at every possible angle.
When daughter Martina married she states father as Benedict Ross but she did order her birth cert in 1939 (the copy I have seen ) and she may or may not of even known about the Shave connection. Benedict died in 1939 so may be when sorting out his paperwork she came across the Shave name and ordered her birth cert to see where she was actually from.
Spent hrs tracing every line of the Shaves ,Ross family and Benedict father was John Gardner Ross
But after looking at the 1891 census today I now need to find who Martina Burwaw is and where did she come from ...
Sorry for the long one it's so hard to explain it all when I am having trouble sorting it out in my head :)
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Am trying to load baby Martina's birth cert not sure if it will work
Also states on birth Walter was a house painter ,he was not Benedict Ross was .
Walter died a yr later and he is not a house painter on his death cert or previous census
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Oh god just when I thought things might not get any stranger.
I was researching the Martina Ross and Mary that you found at Catholic school and looking at all the children registered on the GRO index name Ross MMN Breen there are 2 son's and one is ....
Benedict John Ross
Does this mean that maybe Martina and Benedict were actually brother and sister and this is why they lie on all the census ,place of birth ,maiden name and register a child with strangers ???
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I found him as well, there must be a connection, never found her on a census with a parent as far as I know, don't know if catholic registers can be viewed online, that would be a good information, BUT if that is her at the catholic school why the age difference?
LM
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This is what I found last night John Joseph Peter married Elizabeth Breen 1857 Pancras. They had
Benedict John
Mary (can't find her birth but she us in 1861 census with them )
Martina Margaret
James Edmund
John Gardner
Elizabeth I think dies around 1868 and John remarried a Jemina Mary Ann Mc Cann in 1869 and they have child Robert A Ross.
I cannot find Benedict in 1871 with his father and Mary and Martina are I the Catholic School.
The family seem to be wealthy as they have a couple of servants etc.
I just have a horrible feeling my Martina is this one and Benedct was her brother and that's why she lied on so many census etc
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I have found a advert in in Kilburn times in Aug 92 it's has Martina Burwaw and Messina Av but can't read it all as no sub to BNA
Also found a death of a Martina Ross in Billericay 1880 aged 16
All to many coincidences going on just looking for that one thing that will put everything in place but not sure it will happen with these !
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I think the name of Martina Burwaw was taken from the census , the only name listed is the census you already know about
Haven't got a sub to help you with BNA
LM
ps, as a matter of interest one of the Ross men was a carver by trade, do you think there might have been a miss understanding as all off a sudden the CARVUR name was shown, coincidence or what???
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That is Benedicts father and he us a carver or wood carver on several census and marriages.There is also a probate for John JP Ross but can't view it with my current sub .
There are only about 4 Martina's born 1860-1870 and I have elimated the others only Martina Margaret Ross I haven't.
I have her birth and in 1871 census at school with sister Mary and nothing after apart from the death in 1880 which considering no others born I think it is her.
So what about the theory the Martina Burwaw was not actually a Martina and she took the name from Benedict's deceased sister and used it .We have this lady at the right address in 1891 but nothing before .
She uses Burwaw in the 1891 census and on a advert in 1892 for dressmaking and believe she was having a relationship with Benedict but who was she and what was her proper name,she certainly was never poor
Why would she put Fitzroy Square as place if birth have been through the census there in 71 and 81 and nothing and was looking at ages first and there really is hardly any children living there
This lady and her relationship with Benedict really is a mystery !
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Have you looked at addresses in Fitzroy square 1871, I am wondering if Martina ever knew where she was born, none of us know where we are born unless we are told, she my never have been told the truth, it is a real mystery,
I do wonder if it is your Martina in school, she is not showing on any family tree, what about her parents
Was she Jemima's child, just a thought
Do you know her exact date of birth?
LM
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Hi I have checked the 1871 and 81 census Fitzroy Square and nothing.
Martina Margaret bn 1864 is the daughter of John Joseph Peter Ross and Elizabeth Breen as is Benedict John Ross.Elizabeth died in 1868 so I think that's why the daughters are away at school as father remarried 1869.He hasn't got Benedict living with him but he has son James aged 9 and the 1yr old Robert A Ross who is his child with Jemina.Only Robert is living with him in the next 2 census and then he dies.
Cannot find Benedict in 1871 but as the girls are in a school may be his father sent him somewhere too ,Benedict does put Scotland as place of birth on some census so God knows
Martina on the 1891 census puts bn 1869 but she changes it over the census up to 1911 by few years back .
I wonder if it might be worth ordering her marriage to Benedict in 1916 to see who she puts as her father but really don't think they will be any truth in it. Also the 2 daughters Murcia and Felicitas have MMN Morris so where did she get that name from ?
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1871, Albany St I did find info on David Ross and Martha O mmn DAY, can't find them after so far, Martha O born Jersey married 1870 St Pancras and had a child born 1871 Martha , above them in the same census was a family of Morris???
LM
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Sorry Louise I didn't see you had replied.
I haven't look at this family ,I have been trying to find Benedict in 1871 ,am wondering if he could if been in Scotland as his grandfather was Scottish and he does put Scotland as place of birth on some of the other census.
Also trying on GRO index for any Morris children born that could of been Martina as Burwaw doesn't exist anywhere bar the 1891 census and that census
Thank you again for your help and will let you know if I found anything x
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So Martina's grandson went into his loft again yesterday to see if he had missed anything regarding Martina's Parents
He found this photograph and on the back it says Grandad and the death as 6th Dec 1927 along with the age 79.It's in Martina's handwriting
As Benedict father has died it may be her mother "Martina Burwaw or Morris " father and may help me find who she was .The man was born in 1847/8 So could be her father
Will attach the photo and see if any one has any clues
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Enclosed photos not sure if it will work
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And the front
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As a matter of interest I put in date of death on Ancestry, no other details, 946 wills came up, now if you have the time to trawl through that lot you might find something, as the moment we don't have any names
Just a thought
Louisa Maud
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Thanks Louise,I done that on Ancestry and it came up with 198 of them.
I have spent So many hours searching that looking through them won't make hurt and looking at the records with just that date only option.Let you know if find him
Thanks again
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Yes, I put male in after, thought you might find Martina as a beneficiary, pity a name wasn't on the back of the photo, let that be lesson to us quickly get the photos out and write on the back, something I helped my mother to do before she died, not yet done all of my own as yet
There is provision to put death date in
No name, oh dear!
LM
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Assuming from the photograph the dates are correct
this is my assumption
Granddad born circa 1848, mostly likely not married till 1868 unless Martina was illegitimate, perhaps the 1869 date of birth is more likely to be correct but we don't really know, do we?
This really has turned out to be a mystery but it still crosses my mind to have a search from time to time
Louisa Maud
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Thanks Louisa ,I keep leaving it for a morning or day and then go back.
It's just really hard when it looks like Martina was not her name and neither was Burwaw.
Am sure something I will find something soon and will find out her true identity.
Meanwhile I think her gt grandson is having a DNA to see if he is a Shave.The Shave family are very keen for him to do this .At least we can know for sure if he was related to them or not
Thanks again Lisa
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Wonder if she was foreign and adopted?
LM
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Her gt grandson was always told the name Martina came from a rich Italian from they worked for..
I don't think that is exactly true but Martina the mother didn't end up owning a 11 room house through dressmaking and Benedict being a house painter.
Burwaw is not a Italian surname either !
And Felicitas and Murcia are Spanish names ?
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Wonder if you could trace through to see who owned the 11 bedroomed house on electoral registers, just a suggestion
LM
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1851 HO107; Piece: 1486; Folio: 400; Page: 9;
Jemima McCann aged 19 born Middx
Emily ? aged 16 born Kent ( John Joseph Ross born Kent on 1861)
on their own
Jemima born 1831 parents Thomas and Mary McCann, he a soldier living at Lower Sloane St at St Geo Hanover Square, baptism
also it looks as if there was sister Caroline Foster McCann baptised 29/11/1829 and born 03/10/1829, same parents at St Mary Marylebone Road
Jemima married John Joseph Peter Ross
Looking again at the photo of grandfather he looks as if he was wearing medals, correct me if I wrong, would this be anything to do with the McCann family, can't find Thomas and Mary Ann McCann after the baptisms of daughters although not checked deaths
Louisa Maud
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Morning all!
I've only recently discovered this thread, but I've found it really helpful with clues about Benedict Ross & Martina Burwaw/Morris - thank you all so much!
I finally gave in and ordered their marriage certificate (attached) but I don't think it helps much!
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I had to take a break from Martina for a few months as she was starting to take over! .
How are you related to them and do you know anything of the 2 other daughters from her and Benedict .
The address is interesting as I have them at Gladys Road until their deaths and we def be trying to find her father but I expect this is made up
Thanks again for posting the marriage cert
Lisa
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Wow Lisa, what a turn up for the books as they say, do you recognise the witnesses
Hope Cocoa fairy comes up with more details for you
regards
Louisa Maud
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I'm actually descended from Benedict's father, so not really related to Martina at all - just got sucked in by the mystery! Not sure I can add anything about Murcia or Felicitas, but they're all on my Ross Family Tree in Ancestry (open for members to view) and I have a go at them from time to time.
I'm not convinced that Martina junior is a Shave, but have put her in twice just in case (once with Benedict & Martina as parents, and again with Harriet & Walter).
I was wondering about the witnesses too!
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The witness's don't ring any bells and the 2 father's names look so similar I wonder if that's a lie too.
Also the photo Martina Jr had labelled Grandad could not of been Martina's father as the death date is 1929 on back of photo!and the marriage cert says both father's are deceased
Why is this women so hard ,what is she hiding ?
I have been in contact with the Shave family and one lady has done a amazing job at locating all the children that Harriett had ,she has letters from the youngest daughter Florence to elder brother as the paid for Florence and her family to emigrate as well as many other documents ,Martina Jr is not mentioned on anything.Of course a DNA would prove it all once and for all.
I also don't think she belonged to the Shaves also.
Right back to ancestry to hunt this Mr Morris
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The address is strange to isn't it, you know where she was in 1911 and Gladys Road features so I wonder what 20 Connaught Road was and who lived there , was it an address of convenience?
Have you had a look at death's for 1929 for names that might be familiar, might take you sometime though
Louisa Maud
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you wrote early on
"Here is what I think I have discovered Walter Shave and Harriet Bailey married had 5 children he died in 1893,she met Bendict J Ross who was still married had 2 more children .She married him in 1916 once his wife died"
What about 1913 marriage or am I confused as well
Louisa Maud
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Try searching for BLUNDELL on nearest census to marriage
Louisa Maud
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GOT A CONNECTION
1901 52 Messina Ave
Edward Blundell aged 55 (DEAF) born LDN
Matilda 45 born LDN was she a witness to the marriage 1913
George A 22 born Knightsbridge
Ernest C 21 born St Pancras
Gladys L 11 born Willesden
Sydney 3 born Hampstead
Daisy Wilson 11 born Hampstead
Then they moved
Way back you mentioned Messina Ave
Ancestry has a photo of Edward Blundell, can I suggest you have a look as it might well be the photo you have dated 1929, just a suggestion
Louisa Maud
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The Blundells were at 20 Connaught Road in 1911 census!!!
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Hi Louisa, Thank you for again spending the time to look great detective work as usual
.I wrote the yr wrong on the marriage previously there was only one and that was in 1913.The one we have .
Martina lived at 52 ,Messina until I think around 1902 going from the children's school records They then moved from Gladys Road were they are in 1911 and again in the 1920s according to electric roll.It could be she knew the Blundells through the house and stayed in contact or they are in some way related .Will go and try and find out more about them and see what Matilda' s maiden name was .
I have spent a few hrs chasing a John James Morris this afternoon but no leads
Looking at the census am struggling to find any that were frame makers
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Matilda's maiden name WOODWARD, don't know if it fits in anywhere but they married in Lambeth I believe
LM
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If you go back to
No 16, Florence Chapman mentioned
Wasn't there a Chapman as a witness, can't see it properly on my iPad, doesn't seem to zoom onto the recent marriage cert
Louisa Maud
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The Chapman came from Florence Shave school record,she was listed as a Chapman as well. But the lady who traced the Shaves had letters from Florence in her 30s to older brother and although they were all spilt up after the death of their father it seems from the letters they all stayed in contact but no mention of Martina.Also she has a poor law removal record and it listed all the children ,Martina was not on that either.
I do believe the Shaves registered Martina at birth but she was wasn't their child and belonged to Martina and Benedict.
I have now managed to get my laptop back from a friend as spent all day looking on my phone so now going to look at this Blundell family and the see if the W J Chapman is anyone of interest.
If you are interested the lady sent me life stories including records,letters and photos .But they are only of Harriett and 2 of her children and think including the Shaves may make it more confusing ....well not that it isn't already ;D
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I have looked at Edward and Matilda and apart from they lived at 52,Messina Av on 1891 and 1901 census where Martina lived with the 3 girls ,I cannot see how the families are related. I have looked at Edward and Matilda's siblings too as well as parents and grandparents.
( I think I would of cried if Matilda's sister married a Morris lol)
The photo of Edward doesn't look like the man I have labelled as Grandfather.
Shame the marriage cert only has initials for first names as WJ Chapman doesn't give you much to go on.
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On ER'S, Gladys Road
Just checked on a few,
1918
Maria Pressland
Edwin Ernest Rudd
Martina
no Benedict
1919 Maria Pressland,
Martina Ross
Ernest Rudd
no Benedict
1921
Benedict John
Martine
Ernest E Rudd
1930
Martina,
Benedict
and family by name of Toomey
Wonder if the extra names are lodgers
The plot certainly deepens
LM
ERNEST RUDD sometimes shown as Edwin
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Marie Pressland is no relation, her maiden name was Adams, another ruled out
Mary Jane Adams married William Pressland 1883, they had quite a few children but on 1901 she is a widow and shown as Marie, I believe she is the same person as Mary Jane
I suppose what you need to know is, who lived or owned 18 Gladys Road before Martina and Benedict moved in
LM
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I don't think this has been mentioned here so far
School records
St Augustine school
St Thomas CARBUR
born 25/12/1878
father Benedict
address 5 Hall Place Paddington
Marylebone St James
Winifred CARBUR
born 25/10/1880
all details as above but also states her last school was a convent school
Cambell St School
Benedict J CAUBUR
born 01/01/1882
ad to school 27/10/1888
last school St Augustine
Why use the name CARBUR?
Louisa Maud
this family must have been neighbours of my grandparents
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The pupil registered immediately before St Thomas Carbur on the school record is Ernest Blundell, son of Edward, of....52 Messina Avenue!
Benedict uses the surname Carbur in the 1891 census, 1893 electoral regeister and 1901 census.
He is 'Carbury' on the 1891 electoral register, then becomes 'Rosscarbur' on 1905 & 1908 ERs and in the 1911 census! Sadly, I have no idea why. Possibly trying to avoid being found by his wife Winifred?
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Wish it was that simple ...sadly Winifred uses it as well
Do you know anything of Benedict's mother Elizabeth Breen .I am trying to find Benedict on 1871 census and as he is not with his father and new step mother I wondered if he was with her family.
Also daughter Murcia had a son in Scotland in 1924 and we have picture of Benedict in a kilt so do we have a Scottish connection (apart from his grandmother) that I have missed ?
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So far
Elizabeth Ross MMN Breen
1861
John Ross aged 32 shown born Gillingham ?
Elizabeth 34 Lambeth
Benedict 3 London
Mary 1 London
looked for births MMN Breen, came up with the following
James Edmund 1862 Pancras
Benedict John 1858 Marylebone
Martina Margaret 1864 Marylebone
John Gardin 1867 Marylebone
John 1868 Marylebone
As you know Martina aged 11 and her sister Mary are in a catholic school , Clarendon Sq
Can't as yet find any on 1871
Still looking for more info on Elizabeth
LM
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Hi we seem to be researching the same family tree . Could I ask if they are relatives
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I was researching the family for a friend and it became a obsession once I started discovering all the mystery.
If you know what happened to the daughters of Martina I would love to know or if you know who she actually was ?
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Let's hope it will make sense to you now that someone hopefully is chasing the same family
Louisa Maud
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Be lovely if they could Louisa ,Martina's family tree is probably the most confusing I had ever come across and one I could never solve.
Would love to know who she actually was !
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I found it intriguing at the time, bet you thought you had put this one to bed ?
Louisa Maud
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I found it intriguing at the time, bet you thought you had put this one to bed ?
Louisa Maud
I had but it someone else has some more info I know I will be sucked straight in again.I hate unsolved mysteries 😁😁
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So do I so I will wait and see what transpires
Louisa Maud
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This is a fascinating topic and I've just read it from start to finish and I think a roundup of all the facts would be great to get and someone could take a look for new info. I would be happy to take a look for any new info too.
Once again, fascinating topic.
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This is a fascinating topic and I've just read it from start to finish and I think a roundup of all the facts would be great to get and someone could take a look for new info. I would be happy to take a look for any new info too.
She is very fascinating it's just a shame we never found out who she actually was
One thing we did find out was Benedicts younger sister Martina died aged 16 and we believed our lady took the name from her. Myself and Louisa Maud researched long after this thread and discovered more on them
I am welcome to any help or suggestions to find who she was
Once again, fascinating topic.
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It would be really rewarding to find out actually who she really was, what a nice Christmas present if someone could solve this for you , let's hope so
Happy Christmas to you Littlesis 76
Louisa Maud
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Would one of you be able to do a summery of what you know/believe and any facts that are there please?
Somebody will be able to solve a bit more I hope. It's a great story.
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I will try my best
We have Martina Elizabeth Ross born 8 May 1892 .Her parents on her birth cert were Harriet and Walter Shave but we believe these were not her parents as the cert has middle names of parents who we believe are the actual parents.The birth was also registered to an address where Harriet and Walter didnt live
The actual parents we think were Benedict Ross and Martina Burwaw. Benedict was still married at the time and he uses the names Ross ,Carbur and Rosscarbur on the census.
Benedict and Martina had 2 more daughters who were registered Ross and MMN Morris we are unable to find what happened to one after she left for Canada on 18/7/1927.
Daughter Martina was baptised in 1910 ages but this time her parents are Benedict and Martina .
(I have just looked at this record again and on the other page there is a son Ernest Alexander born to Martina in 1916 so she had a illegitimate son that I didnt know of)
We know about daughters Martinas life but it's her mother who is the mystery.
She was born we think around 1869 and died in 1931,Bendict in 1939.
She uses Morris as the maiden name for daughters but cannot find the connection with Morris name
On the 1st census we have her on in 1891 she uses Martina Burwaw (made up name I believe) she is on her own and states her place of birth was Fitzroy Square London,this address is the same as the birth cert of daughter Martina the following year.In 1901 she is at same address Messina Av with daughters and not Benedict he in Folkestone.
In 1911 they are both at Gladys road lying about being married and they both lived there till their deaths.
She married Benedict in 1913 aged 44 after his wife had died in 1912.
Benedict family were very religious and his sister Martina died in a convent and has a headstone which was paid for by the nuns I believe .That Martina lived from 1864 to 1880 ,I have her death cert and I believe that is where mother Martina took the name as it is so unusual I find it hard to believe Benedict had a sister and a wife with that name.
So basically whoever Martina was I think she used a different 1st name and Surname and she didnt not want to register her daughter to herself so used the Shaves .I believe she had money and she came from a wealthy background and was hiding something.
I am now going to try and find out about this illegitimate son (cannot believe I didnt spot this) and any questions please ask.
Oh and sorry if the post is muddled but Martina and her lot make you that way!
Merry christmas Lisa
Ps I was going to share the baptism record of Martinas son but file to large.Its strange as the record is for 1916 but one page has baptism of Martina 1910 amongst all over for 1916 and the other has her son bn 28th Oct 1916.
Update I believe he passed away as death index for Jan 17 .Burial record on deceased.com but haven't paid the fee yet.
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Just read this very interesting thread, and sorry if you have already referred to this, but I see that Martina snr is Martina Burwan of 52 Messina Avenue when she advertises her dressmaking services in the Kilburn Times, 5 February 1892 (and again in the same publication on 19 February 1892).
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Also advertising in 1895 and 1896.
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Hi ,thank you sorry I should of said we found her adverts and she is uses Burwaw/Burwan .The 1st time she uses that surname is 1891 on the census at Messina Avenue.
I think for some reason she couldn't registered her child under her own name which is why she used the Shaves and it wasnt because Benedict was married as she uses his name when registering her other two daughters Murcia and Felicitas .
I think she had a connection with Fitzroy Square but am not sure what ,too be honest the woman is a nightmare so is Benedict with name changes and lies ! But would just love to know who she actually was and why the secrets
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Martina Elizabeth Ross
baptised 11/10/1916
Parents Benedict and Martina Ross
18 Gladys Road
baptised as an adult
born 08/05/1892
Ernest Alexander Ross
26/10/916 (very badly written year)
Parent Martina, a domestic servant
40 King Henry's Road
In registration MMN Ross
Both baptised at St Simon Hammersmith
Within 15 days she has a different address, do you think it is her and her son, a different occupation
Louisa Maud
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King Henry's Road appears to be in Hampstead, why baptisms in Hammersmith ?
trying to find out who lived at 40 King Henry's Road Hampstead, so far no joy
Louisa Maud
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Who did Edward A Ross, MMN Ross on registration belong to born Hampstead, was he Murcia's son before she married Hugh Hadley 1925?, was divorced at sometime.
Louisa Maud
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Who did Edward A Ross, MMN Ross on registration belong to born Hampstead, was he Murcia's son before she married Hugh Hadley 1925?, was divorced at sometime.
Louisa Maud
Yes he was I cant remember how we found that out .
I think Ernest died as a baby but am not 100% the death is on deceased.com
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There is a death 1917 Jan qtr I think for Ernest, but wonder why the address and to be baptised at Hammersmith, so far away from Gladys Road, AND change of occupation, I wonder if it is her
Did you think of looking for Felicitas Garden Ross on the Canadian site, to travelled to Quebec in 1927, think there is also a variation in her Christian name
Marcie/Marcia Ross at school , Netherwood School, address Gladys Road father Benedict, admitted 28/08/1905, born 21/12/1898
Looks like to Kingsgate 1910
Louisa Maud
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Thank you for the info. As it's Christmas eve and there's no darts on telly I will take a look after the visitors have left. Reading about Ernest A Ross, I think that his mum is the daughter Martina and not the elusive one who was married to Benedict. Were Martina and Benedict still together at the time of the first's death?
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Thank you for the info. As it's Christmas eve and there's no darts on telly I will take a look after the visitors have left. Reading about Ernest A Ross, I think that his mum is the daughter Martina and not the elusive one who was married to Benedict. Were Martina and Benedict still together at the time of the first's death?
The son I would assume belongs to daughter Martina and not the Mother she would of been in her late 40s .
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There is a death 1917 Jan qtr I think for Ernest, but wonder why the address and to be baptised at Hammersmith, so far away from Gladys Road, AND change of occupation, I wonder if it is her
Did you think of looking for Felicitas Garden Ross on the Canadian site, to travelled to Quebec in 1927, think there is also a variation in her Christian name
Marcie/Marcia Ross at school , Netherwood School, address Gladys Road father Benedict, admitted 28/08/1905, born 21/12/1898
Looks like to Kingsgate 1910
Louisa Maud
We spent along time looking for Felicitas and lost her after her arrival in Toronto ,her passage was paid for by a friend ,also searched for her too.
On a certain site it now gives me the hint for a Felicitas symonds in Canada so not sure if someone found her marrying a Symonds ?
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Strange how this has been resurrected after all these years but things have progressed and more online, it was a fascinated subject right from the start
Refresh me, was there ever a will for Benedict and or Martina?
Louisa Maud
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No not for either and Benedict died just before 39 reg. I believe they own the house in Gladys road .I think I look into land registry but it wasnt helpful..
We also never discovered the man in the photo labelled Grandad by the daughter Martina but did say he got only of been the father of Mother Martina
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Wonder if he was an Ernest Alexander or Edward Alexander, think they were the first sons so might be names after the man in the uniform if he was their grandfather.
Louisa Maud
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I have looked at the grandfather again no Alexander that I can see for the death date but we really dont know what surname to look for ,there isn't a Morris
Someone has Felicitas on "Anc" as also having a illegitimate son Peter in 1921 Hampstead,they have put his father was Beresford Gordon and that they never married .He used Gordon as a middle name later on They also have Felicitas having a daughter Janet in canada .
None of this will help find who Martina was but still it's good to find out anymore.
So maybe all 3 sisters all had illegitimate sons a few years apart ?
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It has been a real mystery, wish something about Fitzroy Square would jump out, or where she got her money from, the 1921 census isn't far away, you might solve problems then, can't wait myself, to be honest although it seems like I am wishing my life away
Louisa Maud
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I've been looking a little tonight but nothing really jumps out as being 'new' to you lot here re Benedict. I have done a timeline of him so far so will post it on here when I get it sorted. Just something to have clear on paper to help me, but it may help someone else looking too.
I did notice that Murcia had an Edward A Ross living with her in 1939. Was he known about? Is he an illegitimate son of hers? So Martina and Murcia had sons called Edward?
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I believe he was her son born 1921 in the name of Ross, MMN Ross, so illegitimate
Louisa Maud
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All the newcomers to this might be interested in another post by little sis which refers to
" initials on headstone", dating back to 1918, also refers to this family, don't know how to couple them up
Louisa Maud
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All the newcomers to this might be interested in another post by little sis which refers to
" initials on headstone", dating back to 1918, also refers to this family, don't know how to couple them up
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=790604.0
That's the link for that one, there was also one for Felicitia in Canada but after seeing the recent tree added on A I think after Christmas I will contact the owner and see how that have the information and if they know anything else.
It seems that all 3 of Martina's daughters had illegimate sons .
Martina in 1916 with Ernest ,Felicitia with Peter Gordon Ross bn 21/6/21 and Murcia with Edward bn 19/10/21
Louisa Maud
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Has anyone got the info that is on Benedict & Martina's marriage cert? I couldn't find it whilst going through the thread but may have missed it.
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Benedict J Ross
To
Martina E Morris
Willesden
Mar qtr 1913
Not sure if it was shown on here, I suspect it might be a register office wedding but from memory I am not so sure, littlesis might come through with details
Louisa Maud
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Hi The marriage cert is on page 9 the 1st post .It doesn't tell us a lot but the witness is there neighbour from Messin a avenue :)
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Benedict J Ross
To
Martina E Morris
Willesden
Mar qtr 1913
Not sure if it was shown on here, I suspect it might be a register office wedding but from memory I am not so sure, littlesis might come through with details
Louisa Maud
Thank you. On FindMyPast she's down as Martha E Morris. I would be interested to see the cert and see if Martina has a father listed and what it is.
Hi The marriage cert is on page 9 the 1st post .It doesn't tell us a lot but the witness is there neighbour from Messin a avenue :)
Thanks also. I'll go take a look now.
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Blundells lived in Messina Ave
LM
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Has anyone looked into the Edith Martina Morris b 1965 in Hackney? MMN Fletcher.
I am trying to look now but I'm struggling to find a Morris/Fletcher marriage that fits. There's a few children born in the Hackney/Poplar area during the time and a couple have not so common names.
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Has anyone looked into the Edith Martina Morris b 1965 in Hackney? MMN Fletcher.
I am trying to look now but I'm struggling to find a Morris/Fletcher marriage that fits. There's a few children born in the Hackney/Poplar area during the time and a couple have not so common names.
Scrap that. I don't think it's correct. Edith Martina is living with the family after 1891.
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Martina Shave was born in Queen Charlotte's hospital, it has just occurred to me, I wonder if there are any record for this hospital in an archive somewhere
Louisa Maud
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Has anyone looked into the Edith Martina Morris b 1965 in Hackney? MMN Fletcher.
Sorry just seen this yes we looked into her and came up with same conclusion
We also searched for the father named on marriage cert but believe that's a lie esp as it states deceased and Martina (bn 1892) had a photo with Grandad written on it and died 6th Dec 1927 aged 79 .
I keep wondering if there is a Scottish connection with the Grandfather .Her grandson was always told his grandmother was named Martina after a rich Italian family her mother worked for but that's a lie ,I think she took the name from Benedict's deceased sister
and gave the same name to her daughter ,i think we said somewhere that Murcia and Felicitias were Spanish names. Might try looking for anyone else with those names incase they were named after a aunt or grandmother?
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Littlesis, and so it goes on!
Louisa Maud
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If Benedict had was a name common in the Ross family, was there a chance that Martina (the elder) was related to Benedict and that's why there's all the lies on the certs/censuses? Maybe they were cousins or (step-)siblings. It wouldn't be the only time in history it happened. I'm sure there would have been a big reason for them to need to hide their personal lives from others if that was the case.
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Is everyone fairly confident that the Shave family were nothing to do with anything and that they were just doing a good deed and registering a child for a friend? Is there any other connection between the families other than the Shaves registering Martina?
Sorry to ask a lot but this is such a complicated story.
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It certainly is a complicated topic but very interesting, sadly they mostly missed the 1939 so we didn't have a birthdate either where there was no baptisms
Louisa Maud
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Hi I have look into the Shave family alot and followed the other children and been in contact with descendants of them who have letters from the siblings to each other no mention of Martina ,my guess is they paid them to registered there daughter .
I have found another Felicitas in 1881 she is living with her father who is Italian ,they have no servant but maybe she is where Martina got the name from and it was Felicitas who was named after a Italian family . There in Hackney too. Am just looking at any connection I can get at the moment.
Louisa did we see if there were any Italians in Fitzroy Square where Martina said she was born ?
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It has been such an ongoing topic, I seem to repeat myself even after going back to page 1, not sure about Italians but will try to have a look possibly tomorrow as it means trawling Fitzroy
Louisa Maud
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It has been such an ongoing topic, I seem to repeat myself even after going back to page 1, not sure about Italians but will try to have a look possibly tomorrow as it means trawling Fitzroy
Found this on a website ,it lists every house in the square with it inhabitants. Very detailed and no one that stands out .
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vol21/pt3/pp52-63
Louisa Maud
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A lady has replied to my message in A and she is the granddaughter of Felicitas .Her father was born out of wedlock as his father was still married (just like Benedict) he was placed in a children's home age 6 while his mother went to Canada to start a new life but he was to join her.This didnt happen and he discovered his mother was still alive during wartime .He did go to Canada to meet her but as she was married he had to pretend he was a family friend ,it was later discovered he was her son and all contact was stopped.
She doesnt know when and where she died but she knows she married a man Symonds .
She also meet Murcia and said she wasnt a lady you would of questioned .
I have asked her if it is ok to share all the information on here and she agreed as would love any help with her family ,I have also share the link so she can see herself.
I am more excited that she has photos of Felicitas and Murcia only wish she had one of Martina and Benedict
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That is brilliant news. Hopefully the lady will know bits of extra info and it'll lead to us finding out who Martina really was
I am more excited that she has photos of Felicitas and Murcia only wish she had one of Martina and Benedict
I was just about to ask if you had any photos of the family as it would be nice to see them.
I have been thinking a bit more and I do think the Morris name has some significance and isn't just a name plucked at random. She uses the name on 3 documents spaced over 15 years so it must have been something she would have remembered.
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I have tried to look for deaths dec qtr 1927 with an age of 79, needle in a haystack, could he be a Morris, Ross or Bailey and from where?, pity there aren't any burial records
Louisa Maud
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I found what I thought was a death of James Halliwell Morris aged 79 in Manchester,he married Elizabeth Blackwell in 1870 I think but after looking at the family for ages I noticed the burial was 6th Dec !
Very frustrating
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Why not if death was 5th December, could have been a quick burial
Louisa Maud
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I have gone back to the beginning with this topic
If Martina is the child of Harriet and Walter I am wondering why she wasn't baptised as such soon after birth, I found 4 other Shave sibling's all belonging to Walter and Harriet baptised soon after birth, no Martina
Louisa Maud
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Perhaps they were prepared to lie to the registrar but not the vicar?
It seem pretty clear she wasn’t Walter and Harriet’s natural child. Why she was registered as theirs is far from obvious, but likely to be either that she was genuinely intended to be brought up by them or that it was a deliberate artifice to provide her with apparent legitimacy despite her illegitimate birth.
If she was to be brought up by the Shaves, that plan may have changed after Walter’s early death. But it is puzzling why they, with a young family already, would have wanted to take on somebody else’s child in any event. In the absence of a family/friends link, one imagines a financial inducement is likely to have been involved.
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I have gone back to the beginning with this topic
If Martina is the child of Harriet and Walter I am wondering why she wasn't baptised as such soon after birth, I found 4 other Shave sibling's all belonging to Walter and Harriet baptised soon after birth, no Martina
Because she wasn't there child ,we think they registered her for Martina and Benedict,he was married and Martina was hiding something (using false name Burwaw a year before baby Martina was born.
Walter Shave died from syphilis and he had had it some time .I suspect the Shave were paid to register the baby .
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Perhaps they were prepared to lie to the registrar but not the vicar?
It seem pretty clear she wasn’t Walter and Harriet’s natural child. Why she was registered as theirs is far from obvious, but likely to be either that she was genuinely intended to be brought up by them or that it was a deliberate artifice to provide her with apparent legitimacy despite her illegitimate birth.
If she was to be brought up by the Shaves, that plan may have changed after Walter’s early death. But it is puzzling why they, with a young family already, would have wanted to take on somebody else’s child in any event. In the absence of a family/friends link, one imagines a financial inducement is likely to have been involved.
Sorry avm I didn't see you had replied ,agree 100% with all your theories .Wonder how the 2 families even knew each other,maybe Harriet worked for Martina ?
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I've had a look for deaths with names Morris & Ross and here's all I came up with in the London area:
Donald Ross b 1848 d Q2 1928 Wandsworth
William Morris b 1848 d Q2 1928 Poplar
Would it be possible to post a clearer photo of the medals and maybe someone on the armed forces forum could identify them?
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Double post
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Donald Ross appears on 1891 with wife Mary A (nee Lea), Merchant St Bromley St Leonard occupation Bank Clerk, born Scotland, there is also a step daughter Alice Lea born 1879 Bow, he and Mary A do not seem to have any children together
Donald's father is Duncan Ross
Alice Maude Clara Lea registered 1878 Bethnal Green, no MMN
Louisa Maud
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Donald Ross appears on 1891 with wife Mary A (nee Lea), Merchant St Bromley St Leonard occupation Bank Clerk, born Scotland, there is also a step daughter Alice Lea born 1879 Bow, he and Mary A do not seem to have any children together
Donald's father is Duncan Ross
Alice Maude Clara Lea registered 1878 Bethnal Green, no MMN
Louisa Maud
There's a couple of coincidences there but nothing to connect to Benedict as of yet.
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Frustrating isn't it?, there must be a reason why the change of names, we can only speculate
On Martina's marriage to Benedict her father is shown as "dec", no trace so far, even just put in Picture frame maker and all variations, no joy, perhaps she thought she ought to put something on the cert and she made it up
I do wonder if "grandfather" born 1848 and died 1927/8 might be of the same generation as Benedict John Ross born 1858 in Scotland, we may never know. If we think about it the "grandfather " could be 1 of at least 4 men or 5 if you include the Fairweather name, also Shave, Ross, Morris and Bailey unless Littlesis knows of any other family names, it might well be an adopted grandfather, someone she might have known most of her life but not a family member, now there's another thought !!
I am looking forward to the 1921 census, not so far away now
Louisa Maud
Ps, I have also checked on family trees on Ancestry to check dates, born 1848 died 1927/8, no joy
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AVM wrote "It seem pretty clear she wasn’t Walter and Harriet’s natural child"
Was she Walters child, just a thought
Louisa Maud
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Yes, very frustrating.
I searched 'picture frame maker's and Morris and found 1 man but I'm on my phone and can't recall his first name. If you look, he could be a brother to our Martina.
With regards to the registering of Martina jnr. we don't know who actually went in to see the registrar. We know it was a female and was passing herself off as the mother. We assume that it was Harriet Shave but adding Martina as a middle name. Same as Walter with Benedict. In fact, I think Martina and Benedict must be the parents as them names can't be plucked from the air and added as middle names. So we're back to finding why Walter and Harriet agreed to be put as parents. 1 person from each party must have been aware of what was going on as Martina wouldn't know the maiden name Bailey and the Shaves wouldn't know the Ross' first names and address.
I think we should look to see if there's anyone of significance under the name Morris dying between 1892 & 1898. Maybe she was hiding from her dad in 1892 and he died in between.
There really is very few options that are available to us with very little to go on.
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Looking at the Grandfathers the Fairweather one died 1936 ,but looking quickly I haven't researched the Shave one and it looks like his father was also Walter Shave but he was born in 1848 and he might be worth looking at as he was in Hampshire in 1871 and seemed he went to America
Update:
Actually looking at his tree it's just muddled too.He put Walter as father on his marriage to Harriet Bailey but if I have the right Walter Shave on 1871 census he is with his mother Mary A Shave and another man and she is a widow . There are a few trees on A for Walter and a couple of different fathers for him.
Will search Baileys to see .
I just think that Martina and Benedict were a different class to Walter and Harriet as awful as that sounds. They both signed with a mark on there wedding cert and Benedict grew up with servants etc and from what the lady said Murcia and Felicitias where "well to do".
I really dont think they were related but will look more ,I think they knew the Shaves,they probably knew he didnt have long to live and a payment was made to registered their daughter .
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Looked into Percy Sidney Morris, MMN Goudge/Gouge, born 1887, although father William Frederick was a frame maker nothing jumps out,
Louisa Maud
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Could Barwar be Barman?, just a thought
Louisa Maud
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Could Barwar be Barman?, just a thought
Louisa Maud
FindMyPast has it as Burwash. It could be anything really.
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I have just found a Walter Jones living at 52 Messin Avenue in 1890 on electrol rolls .It has to be someone we need to trace,Martina Burwaw place her 1st advert in 1890 at same address
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1891 has George Jones and family living 54 Messina Ave
52 as we know Martina and family
On ER's does Walter have anyone else living there
Louisa Maud
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1891 has George Jones and family living 54 Messina Ave
52 as we know Martina and family
On ER's does Walter have anyone else living there
Louisa Maud
No he is on his own but at the side it states 52 messina avenue and 146 Iverson Road,does this mean he owns both the houses ?
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Don't know myself, will see if I can see Messina on 1881
There isn't a death for a Walter Jones 1927
Louisa Maud
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I thought it could be another relation of hers a brother or even a husband.
I am know really sure how often the electrol rolls were done and have been trying to see on 91 census who is living at Iverson Road.
We know Martina was there in 1890 so whoever this Walter Jones is he must of been there with her
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The fact that he was entitled to vote there doesn’t mean he lived there. He may have been the owner/landlord, living elsewhere.
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Yes AVM, he couldn't be living at 2 addresses, I am inclined to agree with you
Martina and Co are giving me sleepless nights, don't know about you Littlesis but something pops into my head and I am up for a couple of hours searching
Can you refresh me, where was Martina supposedly aged 8 on 1891, or Martina born circa 1869 herself on 1881
I have a similar thing in my family, quite a well to do man and his wife came over here from Germany, had no children with his wife but had, suppose you would call her a mistress, at least 6 children with him, tracked down all her children but she gives a MMN on every birth cert and I know for a fact she never married, she never married the father of her children after his poor wife died ad she was given the chance
So the mystery goes on
Have you looked at 54 Messina Road Hampstead on Google, would be worth an absolute fortune now
Louisa Maud
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I thought it could be another relation of hers a brother or even a husband.
I am know really sure how often the electrol rolls were done and have been trying to see on 91 census who is living at Iverson Road.
We know Martina was there in 1890 so whoever this Walter Jones is he must of been there with her
How do we know that? Did we find an ER from then with her name on?
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Quick refresh
Baby Martina Elizabeth was born 1892 mother Martina 1st found on 1891 census .If age is correct born 1869 at Fitzroy Square.
There were several adverts for dressing making placed by Martina Burwaw starting from 1890 in local.paper at Messina Avenue if my memory is correct
The electrol roll says Walter Jones then dwelling house (successive) ...not sure what that means then 46 Iverson Road and 52 Messina Avenue .There is one other on the page that says successive too rest are just one address .
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She is Martina Burwan in all of the ads. “Burwaw” I think occurs only in the 1891 census, and is such an unlikely name that it may be an enumerator error, even if the underlying name is also a pseudonym.
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Yes AVM, he couldn't be living at 2 addresses, I am inclined to agree with you
Martina and Co are giving me sleepless nights, don't know about you Littlesis but something pops into my head and I am up for a couple of hours
Louisa Maud
This has been my Christmas break from work ....Martina bloomin Barwaw ,Burwan ,Morris Ross whatever she wants to call herself .She has had hours and hours of my time again and if they ever do invent a time machine I will be searching her out to tell her exactly what I think !
One day just one day we will find her and it better be good for all the bother she has caused :D :D
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I can hear your frustration littlesis, feel it myself, if you think of it no doubt if you paid someone the time would have cost thousands and would you be any nearer than you are with yourself with the RC' s on her trailI?, know it is like wishing my life away but I can't wait for the next census, might solve a few problems
Grandad will still be alive on 1921, whomever he is
It has been an interesting topic started I think about 2017
Louisa Maud
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Might not be Martina' s fault , it is what she most likely has been told or surmised
Louisa Maud
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CANCEL THIS, THINK I AM BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE
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AM I CHASING THE WRONG FAMILY?
I have found a family on 1871
1871 England Census;: RG10; Piece: 9; Folio: 23; Page: 37;
Margaret Bailey 50, wid
plus as visitors, listed as Moores 3 children
Walter aged 6
Alice 4
Emily 2 siblings shown as visitors and all born Marylebone
Looking at these children as MOORES I have been unable to find registered births, but 1 of these children Emily (Mary) is listed as MORRIS with maiden name REEVES
Checked out a marriage and came across
Thomas Bacon Morris
to
Mary Ann Reeves
1867 Marylebone
there appears to be only 3 sightings of Thomas Bacon Reeve, (Bacon being his mother's maiden )on freebmd's
birth 1843
marriage 1867
death 1880
I am trying to check this family out on further census but haven't found anything as yet, although Martina gave her father a completely different Christian name am I barking up the wrong tree?, perhaps someone else will see a connection, I do hope so
Louisa Maud
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Any new info gleaned from the 1921 census? I do hope so.
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How strange this should crop up, I was only thinking about this recently, I hope the originator can find her on 1921 and let's hope she let's us know
Will be interesting as to what name they are found under, the originator did have an address 1918ish
Louisa maud